Hello gents.

[MisterSmurf]

AHH! Che Guevara's face just appeared out of nowhere. Who'd have expected that.

Anyhoo, hello all. Hope I find you nestled in high spirits and all that jazz. I've joined this forum because a load of people, including a couple of my friends (who are mostly leftist to varying degrees), have started this socialist club thing, which basically concists of going to the pub pondering a hypothetical revolution in Britain & Europe and the equally hypothetical harmonious state regieme that will follow.

Now I don't know a huge amount about the more intricate ins and outs of certain left wing ideas like socialism and to be honest neither do the people in this club from what I can gather (they're all just confused angsty teenagers, basically). I was raised in a libertarian family so I'm quite right wing, and have thus far held onto that political standpoint. Trouble is, as politically minded as my family is, they're likely to be slightly biased about these things so I figured that the best way to get a better understanding would be to go and join a leftist forum; and here I am.

That and I'm mind-numbingly bored.

[Genosse Kotze]

Ah yes! Boredom can motivate you to do new things--but most of the time it causes one to stagnate on the sofa. Either way, welcome to revleft! If you're looking to learn new things about the Left, this forum might be helpful, but you're best bet would be to read some more introductory materials. Hope you and your friends get radicalized and turn that pub into a revolutionary HQ!

[luxemburg89]

Hey and welcome. Go to the learning section to find out what we're all about. Contrary to rightist propaganda about the left:

Communists do not, in fact, eat children. We much prefer adult flesh.

The red flag is not dyed red with the blood of American Children.

Contrary to the beliefs of reactionary toffs in my hometown, Channel 4 is not run by communists (we dunno how to work the electrics) and the BBC was not appointed by God.

Not all leftists are permanently drunk and bearded. The beards are optional.

Enjoy learning.

[MisterSmurf]

Ah yes! Boredom can motivate you to do new things--but most of the time it causes one to stagnate on the sofa. Either way, welcome to revleft! If you're looking to learn new things about the Left, this forum might be helpful, but you're best bet would be to read some more introductory materials. Hope you and your friends get radicalized and turn that pub into a revolutionary HQ!

Sadly, I doubt it... they all got kicked out on their first 'revolutionary meeting' because none of them had ID, which made me giggle I have to admit.


Contrary to rightist propaganda about the left:

Communists do not, in fact, eat children. We much prefer adult flesh.

The red flag is not dyed red with the blood of American Children.

Splendid! That's the handy thing about not being American; you don't have to endure any of that fear-driven piffle being shoved down your throat *Sneaks off to let the children out of the cellar; false alarm, kids* To return the favour, then; contrary to leftist stereotypes; most right wing people are not fascists, religious fundamentalists, insane, inbred, worshippers of propaganda or selfish & money grabbing. We just don't want a state monopoly is all.


Contrary to the beliefs of reactionary toffs in my hometown, Channel 4 is not run by communists (we dunno how to work the electrics) and the BBC was not appointed by God.

Those toffs must be a tad out of touch with what's going on then. :) The BBC and Channel 4 don't differ hugely on political agendas these days. The BBC used to be right wing in the 60s but now they're both quite left comparatively speaking... in different ways though: the BBC puts out radio propaganda saying that state schools are better than private schools and so on while Channel 4 seem to like encouraging the idea of a nanny state; telling people what not to eat and having their news reporters give disapproving frowns whenever the government fails to intrude upon people's lives. I think what actually annoys people about Channel 4 is that its bias is quite obvious, whereas the BBC at least try to maintain neutrality (for the most part) as far as reporting the news and what not is concerned.


Not all leftists are permanently drunk and bearded.

I am.

By the by, I'd noticed that there are some anarchists on here... struck me as peculiar since I see anarchism as more of a right wing extreme, if anything (totally free market economy, no government, no law et cetera). Then again, anarchy's more of a social thing so it isn't necesarily constricted by economics and there probably is a way in which anarchy can be possible in addition to a more powerful state... I'd be curious to know how that would work though.

[luxemburg89]

The BBC used to be right wing in the 60s but now they're both quite left comparatively speaking... in different ways though: the BBC puts out radio propaganda saying that state schools are better than private schools and so on while Channel 4 seem to like encouraging the idea of a nanny state; telling people what not to eat and having their news reporters give disapproving frowns whenever the government fails to intrude upon people's lives. I think what actually annoys people about Channel 4 is that its bias is quite obvious, whereas the BBC at least try to maintain neutrality (for the most part) as far as reporting the news and what not is concerned.


I disagree. On the political programmes there are normally exclusively conservative reactionaries or 'sit on the fence' liberals, there is a completely unfair representation of the left-wing - if we get any representation at all. It's not explicit but the anti-left prejudice is apparent in these channels.



To return the favour, then; contrary to leftist stereotypes; most right wing people are not fascists, religious fundamentalists, insane, inbred, worshippers of propaganda or selfish & money grabbing. We just don't want a state monopoly is all.


May I ask a question, without meaning to be rude? Do you intend to become a leftist from this site?



By the by, I'd noticed that there are some anarchists on here... struck me as peculiar since I see anarchism as more of a right wing extreme, if anything (totally free market economy, no government, no law et cetera)

It may be better to let anarchists handle this question but I'll give it a go. We have a lot of anarchist comrades, many of whom I consider friends, and we would certainly not allow right-wingers on the site so we can assure you it is a left-wing ideology. Communism and Anarchism are seen by many to be very similar. I am not too hot on Anarchist theory, I know a bit, so I will let an anarchist tell you about their theory; suffice to say that there are loads of brilliant leftists on here, and many of them anarchists.

[MisterSmurf]

I disagree. On the political programmes there are normally exclusively conservative reactionaries or 'sit on the fence' liberals, there is a completely unfair representation of the left-wing - if we get any representation at all. It's not explicit but the anti-left prejudice is apparent in these channels.

I was only saying the BBC are leftist comparatively, in the same way that you could say Labour are the left wing party comparatively. I agree that the most common view expressed, not just by the BBC but in general, is that of the right. The Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats the Conservatives yadda yadda are all in the center to right side of the spectrum & genuinely more left wing parties like the greens and the BNP (contrary to the rather jaded common opinion, these lunatics are still economically left wing, irregardless of their absurd authoritarian nationalism) rarely get heard from. Although I don't think this is because the left is surpressed, I think it's just because most people are speaking from a central to right political standpoint.

EDIT: sorry, I forgot to reply to the rest.


May I ask a question, without meaning to be rude? Do you intend to become a leftist from this site?

No. If I intended to become a leftist, that would pretty much make me a leftist already, if that makes sense. I don't intend to change your opinions either though, if that's what you're worried about & I'm open minded, so you never know I may end up becoming a leftist anyway. For the time being, though, I'm just here to hopefully get a better grasp of certain concepts.


It may be better to let anarchists handle this question but I'll give it a go. We have a lot of anarchist comrades, many of whom I consider friends, and we would certainly not allow right-wingers on the site so we can assure you it is a left-wing ideology. Communism and Anarchism are seen by many to be very similar. I am not too hot on Anarchist theory, I know a bit, so I will let an anarchist tell you about their theory; suffice to say that there are loads of brilliant leftists on here, and many of them anarchists.

In that case, as I pondered previously and what is probably most likely the case, it can be both because like fascism, it's almost nothing to do with the terms left and right. Nevertheless, it still makes more sense to me in the right simply because the absolute right wing extreme, a true market economy, is anarchistic, plain and simple. Left wing extremes can operate on any social perspective whether it be authoritarian or liberal (in theory, at least). With a market economy, though, it's just unquestionable: there simply is no government, no state and nobody to enforce any laws at all.

[luxemburg89]

more left wing parties like the greens and the BNP (contrary to the rather jaded common opinion, these lunatics are still economically left wing, irregardless of their absurd authoritarian nationalism) rarely get heard from. Although I don't think this is because the left is surpressed, I think it's just because most people are speaking from a central to right political standpoint.

The BNP are not left-wing. I'm sorry but that's complete nonesense. The British Nationalist Party are, as they say, nationalist. That is favouring the nation above all else. The left-wing is internationalist and call for world socialism, applying socialism to only one nation (with no interest to spread abroad - which the BNP have no interest in doing) is, in fact, National Socialism, a nazi ideology - which is right wing. The BNP believe that Britain is above all else, where we believe it is not, despite the fact I was born here, I fucking hate the 'British' ideal of stiff-upper-lip, damn all the foreigners etc. Economically the BNP are fascist. They are our ideological enemies, they wish to deport all immigrants - which is against what we stand for. We will always unite to stop the fascist BNP.

[The Advent of Anarchy]

And communists do not spring out of holes in the ground and kill capitalist soldiers (that is [b]so[/s]40 to 46 years ago. We prefer jumping off of high places onto the capitalist soldier screaming "DEATH FROM ABOVE!" all the way down).
=P Thought I'd have a go at that kind of joke.

[luxemburg89]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 26, 2007 10:25 pm
And communists do not spring out of holes in the ground and kill capitalist soldiers (that is [b]so[/s]40 to 46 years ago. We prefer jumping off of high places onto the capitalist soldier screaming "DEATH FROM ABOVE!" all the way down).
=P Thought I'd have a go at that kind of joke.
lol! The more the merrier:P

[MisterSmurf]

The BNP are not left-wing. I'm sorry but that's complete nonesense. The British Nationalist Party are, as they say, nationalist. That is favouring the nation above all else. The left-wing is internationalist and call for world socialism, applying socialism to only one nation (with no interest to spread abroad - which the BNP have no interest in doing) is, in fact, National Socialism, a nazi ideology - which is right wing. The BNP believe that Britain is above all else, where we believe it is not, despite the fact I was born here, I fucking hate the 'British' ideal of stiff-upper-lip, damn all the foreigners etc. Economically the BNP are fascist. They are our ideological enemies, they wish to deport all immigrants - which is against what we stand for. We will always unite to stop the fascist BNP.

Nationalism is nothing to do with right or left. That confusion only happens when people try to lump right and left (which refers to the economics of a nation state) in with a far more philosophical social spectrum of fascism, anarchism, libertarianism and so on. Right wingers do tend to be nationalistic, yes, but that doesn't mean anything: Microsoft computers tend to be rubbish, it doesn't mean that when you encounter a good one it simply isn't Microsoft. I'm not remotely nationalistic; I utterly detest nationalism; that doesn't make me any less right wing.

Statements like this: "economically, the BNP are fascist" make no sense. Fascism is a philosophy. You can't be economically LaVayan or economically pacifist because they simply aren't anything to do with economics. You can be fascist no matter what sort of economy you have, whether you're communist or national socialist or whatever, the one exception being a fully fledged market economy, as far as I can see at least; I'll wait for the anarchists viewpoint on this.*

Also, applying left wing economics to any area of land is left wing... whether it's one nation or twenty. Hitler was slightly more right wing than the BNP but they're still pretty close together. Compared to the radically left viewpoint professed by most on this forum, though, you would probably see them as right wing yes. In relation to your opinions, most likely yes. The Lib. Dems are more right wing than either of them though.

And yes, the BNP are indeed scum who should all burn in Hell. Not because they're quite leftist (or right wing, however you want to see things), but just because they're a bunch of moronic authoritarian thugs with more influence than they deserve. So we've found common ground there at least.

*EDIT.

[luxemburg89]

Nationalism is nothing to do with right or left.

Nationalism is clearly defined as a right-wing ideology. 'Nationalisation' may not necessarily apply to the left or right, perhaps under socialism, but Nationalism is a right-wing ideology. It is favouring your own nation - personally, politically and economically - above all others. Which is, as I said, against what we stand for.


economically, the BNP are fascist

Sorry, perhaps I was unclear. What I meant was they would follow the line of previous fascist states. Such as pre-1945 Italy/Greece (N.B. I do not wish to class these as fascist now in any way - particularly as some of the greatest anti-fascist resistance was seen in Italy by the partisans).


The Lib. Dems are more right wing than either of them though.

I think you may benefit from posting in our learning section. The lid dems are right-centrists. This is the way Marxists would see the political spectrum - and, in fact, most people. The right-centre of the spectrum are the capitalists, who wish to keep the status quo. The further right you get the further towards fascism you get. In my eyes Fascism is very similar to feudalism - Hitler could almost be described as a King. The further right you get, the further backwards you are. To the left-centre are (traditionally) Labour - not New Labour - who believe in Democratic Socialism - and are doomed to be forever involved in a cyclical rotation of tories, then labour, then tories again. The further left you get the more revolutionary - the more forwards - you become. The Communists (and the Anarchists) represent a step to the future - as us marxists see it, that is Socialism, then onto communism. The Lib Dems are to the right-centre - not as right-wing as the Fascists, or the neo-fascists the BNP.


thugs with more influence than they deserve. So we've found common ground there at least.

Lol! Hell yeah.

[MisterSmurf]

Nationalism is clearly defined as a right-wing ideology. 'Nationalisation' may not necessarily apply to the left or right, perhaps under socialism, but Nationalism is a right-wing ideology. It is favouring your own nation - personally, politically and economically - above all others. Which is, as I said, against what we stand for.

I'll illustrate this point again; nationalism is a stereotype of the right, not a defining element of it. It's just one that has become so common that a lot of people simply don't realise that that's all it is, thus it all too often gets taken seriously. Admittedly, though, under more extreme leftist ideals, nationalism is impossible simply because the term 'nation' is despenced with and there no longer is a nation (technically).


Sorry, perhaps I was unclear. What I meant was they would follow the line of previous fascist states. Such as pre-1945 Italy/Greece (N.B. I do not wish to class these as fascist now in any way - particularly as some of the greatest anti-fascist resistance was seen in Italy by the partisans).

That doesn't answer what I said.


I think you may benefit from posting in our learning section. The lid dems are right-centrists. This is the way Marxists would see the political spectrum - and, in fact, most people. The right-centre of the spectrum are the capitalists, who wish to keep the status quo.

You sound like you're trying to disagree with me when in fact you aren't. Apologies if you realised this already (without the benefit of body language and such things, I couldn't quite tell whether you where confused or just stating the obvious). I never said the Lib. Dems were leftist and I agree with the above.


The further right you get the further towards fascism you get.

How? The further right you get the less power and responsibility the state has because more power goes into the free market and private sector. Also, as I explained before, fascism is completely impossible in an absolute far right extreme. Stalin was hard left and a fascist, China's another example. Once again you're lumping the economic and social scales into one thing (in fact you might even be confusing one for the other to an extent); which can only work on the basis of stereotypes and vague associations. If you do that, people like Stalin and myself are impossible to pinpoint on the spectrum.

I wont reply to the rest of that paragraph because what I've already said addresses it, except for this idea of 'forwards' and 'backwards' that you've mentioned. I'm uncertain as to what you mean. Forwards and backwards along what? A straight line with a starting point and a finishing point? Whatever it is, I don't think things are as simple or 2-dimensional as backwards and forwards. It isn't unreasonable (or fascist, for that matter) to simply not like or fundamentally disagree with the way in which things are moving.


Lol! Hell yeah.

Their promotional videos on youtube are particularly brilliant. If you've not seen them you should; they're comedy gold. When I first encountered one I thought it was just some jokers trying to take the piss out of them but turns out I was wrong... look at this desperate bint:

The BNP Youth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdbEqft6VX8&mode=related&search=)

Edit: spotted a typo which made me sound like I was saying something else.

[Genosse Kotze]

Wow, this has got to be the most interesting back and forth in the intro section I've ever seen!

[MisterSmurf]

I just spotted up a great quote from that video:

"this country's just gonna go down the drain & it'll be my fault if I don't go out and vote and it'll be your fault if you don't go out and vote IF YOU don't go out and vote it's YOUR FAULT that we lose this country, I don't want to be blaimed if we lose this country, so every election, when I ge the chance to voting, I'm gonna be voting & I hope you do the same..." vote vote vote vote everythings about voting, voting voting voting, gotta go vote vote VOTE! (oh darn, I forgot to specify the voting for us part, or why). They're totally inane, these people.

[bombeverything]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 05:17 am
AHH! Che Guevara's face just appeared out of nowhere. Who'd have expected that.

Anyhoo, hello all. Hope I find you nestled in high spirits and all that jazz. I've joined this forum because a load of people, including a couple of my friends (who are mostly leftist to varying degrees), have started this socialist club thing, which basically concists of going to the pub pondering a hypothetical revolution in Britain & Europe and the equally hypothetical harmonious state regieme that will follow.

Now I don't know a huge amount about the more intricate ins and outs of certain left wing ideas like socialism and to be honest neither do the people in this club from what I can gather (they're all just confused angsty teenagers, basically). I was raised in a libertarian family so I'm quite right wing, and have thus far held onto that political standpoint. Trouble is, as politically minded as my family is, they're likely to be slightly biased about these things so I figured that the best way to get a better understanding would be to go and join a leftist forum; and here I am.

That and I'm mind-numbingly bored.
You have started a "socialist group" yet you are "quite right wing". Hmm.

[MisterSmurf]

You have started a "socialist group" yet you are "quite right wing". Hmm.

No. My friends are predominantly left wing and they have started an extreme socialist 'club' (they want a full on socialist state, all property is shared and so on). unfortunately though, and as I said previously, they're more the confused-angsty-teenager breed of 'socialist revolutionary' and consequently that's as far as they're able to think these things through. If I went by their example, I'd have a very laughable impression of more intricate socialist logic, such as how you could prevent a system like that from becoming corrupt et cetera. Whenever I try to discuss politics with them, they usually wind up just gawping and looking bemused.

[MisterSmurf]

Actually, having said that, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there are a couple of them on here. They'll be the ones who profess to being extremely leftist but who generally stay clear of any actual debates - except to add the occasional matterless "fuck u" to anyone who uses a big word that they vaguely recognise and associate with something uncool and yet mysterious to them (eg. capitalism) - because they know that if they did make any attempt to argue, they'd just get exposed as being clueless to all of the genuine leftists on here, who they are most likely very eager to suck up to & impress.

Don't get me wrong, they're alright people (most of them) but they're the sort who don't couple well with anonymity.