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The Advent of Anarchy
24th June 2007, 23:57
I've heard about the Zapatista movement in Mexico. I've seen the flag; a red star on a black field, and I know nothing else about them, except they run a small sector of Mexico. What is their ideology? What is it that they believe in?

Janus
25th June 2007, 00:50
Ideology of the EZLN? (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=53826&hl=Zapatista*)
EZLN? (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=34377&hl=Zapatista*)
EZLN: who are they? (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=31944&hl=Zapatista*)


Zapatistas (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65914&hl=Zapatista*)
EZLN (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=55059&hl=Zapatista*)
EZLN (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=36292&hl=Zapatista*)

The Advent of Anarchy
25th June 2007, 01:29
Thank you Janus.

Oh, and be more active in the League!!

bezdomni
26th June 2007, 22:08
I'd classify them more as a multi-tendency national liberation struggle than any specific ideological group.

Although I think they get more hype on the left than they deserve. If they were serious about revolution, they'd have done more to support the Oaxaca rebellion.

p.m.a.
28th June 2007, 11:16
To understand the Zapatista's importance, you shouldn't look at their ideology, but rather their organizational methods.

I suggest Aufheben's article A Commune in Chiapas? (http://libcom.org/library/commune-chiapas-zapatista-mexico), or some of Harry Cleaver's essays, found on his site (http://www.eco.utexas.edu/~hmcleave/hmchtmlpapers.html).

Dr Mindbender
29th June 2007, 02:36
are they anarchists or communists? :blink:

rebelworker
29th June 2007, 03:47
Neither

Chicano Shamrock
29th June 2007, 03:59
Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 01:08 pm
I'd classify them more as a multi-tendency national liberation struggle than any specific ideological group.

Although I think they get more hype on the left than they deserve. If they were serious about revolution, they'd have done more to support the Oaxaca rebellion.
Wow what a rude comment. If YOU were serious about revolution YOU would be in Oaxaca still.

Political_Chucky
29th June 2007, 09:03
Oh how sad, the Zapatista's feelings were hurt. Whether it was rude or not, it is true. I use to believe the Zapatistas really believed in helping their people obtain justice, but all I hear about them now is Marcos riding around on his motorcycle tributing Che. If he really wanted to tribute to the revolutionary, he would start revolution. And the point isn't for Soviet to join the Oxaca rebellion as a lone wolf, the point being that The EZLN should have joined the Oaxaca rebellion as an organization if they truly wanted to take action.

The only thing I praise about the EZLN now a days is Marcos's poetic style of writing in his books.

rebelworker
29th June 2007, 11:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 08:03 am
Oh how sad, the Zapatista's feelings were hurt. Whether it was rude or not, it is true. I use to believe the Zapatistas really believed in helping their people obtain justice, but all I hear about them now is Marcos riding around on his motorcycle tributing Che. If he really wanted to tribute to the revolutionary, he would start revolution. And the point isn't for Soviet to join the Oxaca rebellion as a lone wolf, the point being that The EZLN should have joined the Oaxaca rebellion as an organization if they truly wanted to take action.

The only thing I praise about the EZLN now a days is Marcos's poetic style of writing in his books.
I think some of you guys are living in revolutionary fantasy land.

The Zapatistas could have done little or nothing to join the Oaxaca uprisiing, its hundreds of miles away from their territory.

They can barely keep alive in Chiapas, what are they supposed to do, march down out of the mountains and hike for days through hostile open country?\

The Oaxaca rbellion was dommed to isolation from the start, the Zapatistas are doing what they can in Chiapas, and doing what they can to unite the movement elsewhere through "la autra campagnia".

Some of you clearly know little about what the real situation is in mexico or what a revolution actually looks like. Forget fucking Che Guevara, the guy was a tactical disaster who was part of a huge fluke in Cuba, his model will fail 999 times out of 1000.

The Zaopatistas are not a revolutionary organisation, they are the armed wing/part of a local political movement. Thery did what they could. Without a mass movement of the people all over Mexico, particularly in the north, there will be no revolution.
Period.

Read the other threads for more reasons why...

Political_Chucky
29th June 2007, 19:17
Originally posted by rebelworker+June 29, 2007 02:49 am--> (rebelworker @ June 29, 2007 02:49 am)
[email protected] 29, 2007 08:03 am
Oh how sad, the Zapatista's feelings were hurt. Whether it was rude or not, it is true. I use to believe the Zapatistas really believed in helping their people obtain justice, but all I hear about them now is Marcos riding around on his motorcycle tributing Che. If he really wanted to tribute to the revolutionary, he would start revolution. And the point isn't for Soviet to join the Oxaca rebellion as a lone wolf, the point being that The EZLN should have joined the Oaxaca rebellion as an organization if they truly wanted to take action.

The only thing I praise about the EZLN now a days is Marcos's poetic style of writing in his books.
I think some of you guys are living in revolutionary fantasy land.

The Zapatistas could have done little or nothing to join the Oaxaca uprisiing, its hundreds of miles away from their territory.

They can barely keep alive in Chiapas, what are they supposed to do, march down out of the mountains and hike for days through hostile open country?\

The Oaxaca rbellion was dommed to isolation from the start, the Zapatistas are doing what they can in Chiapas, and doing what they can to unite the movement elsewhere through "la autra campagnia".

Some of you clearly know little about what the real situation is in mexico or what a revolution actually looks like. Forget fucking Che Guevara, the guy was a tactical disaster who was part of a huge fluke in Cuba, his model will fail 999 times out of 1000.

The Zaopatistas are not a revolutionary organisation, they are the armed wing/part of a local political movement. Thery did what they could. Without a mass movement of the people all over Mexico, particularly in the north, there will be no revolution.
Period.

Read the other threads for more reasons why... [/b]
So Marcos's parade on his motorcycle traveling through Mexico was not traveling hundreds of miles away from their territory? He traveled for 6 months all throughout Mexico, yet your saying Oaxaca was just too far for him? Thats pretty much bull. The Zaptistas have revolted once in 13 years and called a truce. After that, they still demand more equality yet they are getting more and more reformist everyday considering the opprotunities they have had.


Some of you clearly know little about what the real situation is in mexico or what a revolution actually looks like. Forget fucking Che Guevara, the guy was a tactical disaster who was part of a huge fluke in Cuba, his model will fail 999 times out of 1000.



His whole parade on the motorcycle was tributing Che. What are we suppose to think when he praises a man of our cause?


The Zaopatistas are not a revolutionary organisation, they are the armed wing/part of a local political movement. Thery did what they could. Without a mass movement of the people all over Mexico, particularly in the north, there will be no revolution.
Period.

Read the other threads for more reasons why...

Well no one is really arguing there.

rebelworker
29th June 2007, 20:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 06:17 pm

So Marcos's parade on his motorcycle traveling through Mexico was not traveling hundreds of miles away from their territory? He traveled for 6 months all throughout Mexico, yet your saying Oaxaca was just too far for him? Thats pretty much bull. The Zaptistas have revolted once in 13 years and called a truce. After that, they still demand more equality yet they are getting more and more reformist everyday considering the opprotunities they have had.

Marcos parading around on a Motorcycle, is not the same thing as the EZLN trying to leave their territory, armed, during an uprising like the one we saw in Oaxaca. The Mexican Army surrounded the city for a reason. The Zapatistas would have been drawn out and killed needlessly.

As for your acusations of the Zapatistas being more reformist all the time, the opposite is true. As has been discussed in other threads on this topic, the Zapatistas rhetoric and politics are increasingly openly anti capitalist and internationalist and the youth that grew up in the Zapatista free zones are much more politically astute than their parents before them.


AS for trying to draw on Che's image, its just smart publicity as che is still a symbol of resistance for many. That dosnt change the fact that che's politics, especially tactically, were weak.

bezdomni
29th June 2007, 22:32
What I was getting at more was that they said they were going to do stuff to help the Oaxaca rebellion but I don't recall them doing much of anything.

Given, I wasn't there...so I might have missed out on something. But I'd imagine it would have been reported of the EZLN was active in Oaxaca.


Wow what a rude comment. If YOU were serious about revolution YOU would be in Oaxaca still.

:lol:

I am not even going to dignify that with a response.


The Zapatistas could have done little or nothing to join the Oaxaca uprisiing, its hundreds of miles away from their territory.

Right, but didn't they say they were going to physically support the Oaxaca rebellion?

I am pretty sure I read that article on this site, actually.

rebelworker
30th June 2007, 02:02
They did, they blocked roads and similar actions in Chiapas, they also called upon the huge networks of support they had built through la autra campagnia to support the uprising. Demos in support in other areas of the country, particularly DF, were crushed brutally.

Janus
30th June 2007, 02:45
What I was getting at more was that they said they were going to do stuff to help the Oaxaca rebellion but I don't recall them doing much of anything.
You may be thinking of these statements.
EZLN message on Oaxaca (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=59947)
Marcos on Oaxaca (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=59273)

Like rebelworker said, the EZLN weren't in a position to do a lot but they did show solidarity with the Oaxaca protestors.

bezdomni
30th June 2007, 05:03
hm, interesting.

I retract my previous statement and stand corrected.

p.m.a.
3rd July 2007, 04:02
Here's a translation of the most recent Zapatista communique, thanks to the au-top-sy list.


II Encounter of the Zapatista Peoples with the Peoples of the World

Translation El Kilombo Intergaláctico

Communiqué of the Indigenous Revolutionary Clandestine
Committee—General Command of the Zapatista Army of National Liberation

June of 2007

To the People of Mexico:
To the Peoples of the World:
To the Adherents of the Zexta Internazional:
To the Adherents of the Sixth Declaration:

Compañeros and Compañeras:
Brothers and Sisters:

As was announced at the First Encounter of Zapatista Peoples with the
Peoples of the World (held in January of this year), the Second
Encounter will be held in the coming month of July. The objective of
this encounter is that persons, groups, collectives, and organizations
that struggle against neoliberalism, in Mexico and all over the world,
hear directly the word of the EZLN's bases of support on the process
of the construction of autonomy in the Zapatista indigenous
communities of Chiapas. For this reason, the EZLN, through its
Intergalactic and Sixth Commissions, convokes:

The Second Encounter of Zapatista Peoples with the Peoples of the World.

To be held in Zapatista territory July 20 through 28 of the year 2007,
with the following characteristics:

First. Taking into account the difficulties that the rainy season
provokes at this time in the state of Chiapas, the locations of the
Encounter will not be the 5 caracoles (as was previously announced),
but rather 3 caracoles (Oventik, Morelia, and La Realidad), following
the schedule that we here detail:

Friday, July 20: Caracol of Oventik, Zona Altos [Highlands Zone] of
Chiapas. Welcome and Inauguration.

Saturday, July 21: Caracol of Oventik, Zona Altos of Chiapas. Plenary
roundtables with presentations by the Zapatista bases of support of
the Autonomous Municipalities of the Altos of Chiapas, and sessions
for questions, observations, and proposals by attendees.

Sunday July 22: Transfer to the Caracol of Morelia, Zona Tzotz Choj. Welcome.

Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, July 23, 24, and 25: Caracol of
Morelia, Zona Tzotz Choj. Plenary roundtables with presentations by
the Zapatista bases of support of the Autonomous Municipalities of the
Tzotz Choj Zone (Caracol of Morelia), the Northern Zone of Chiapas
(Caracol of Roberto Barrios), and the Selva [Jungle] Tzeltal Zone
(Caracol of La Garrucha), and sessions for questions, observations,
and proposals by attendees.

Thursday, July 26: Transfer to the Caracol of La Realidad, Zona Selva
Fronteriza [Jungle/Border Zone]. Welcome.

Friday, July 27: Caracol of La Realidad, Zona Selva Fronteriza.
Plenary roundtables with presentations by Zapatista bases of support
of the Autonomous Municipalities of the Zona Selva Fronteriza, and
sessions for questions, observations, and proposals by attendees.

Saturday, July 28: Caracol of La Realidad, Zona Selva Fronteriza.
Final Plenary and Closing.

Sunday, July 29: Return.

Second. The themes of the plenary roundtables are:

Health: Presentation given by the Health Promoters of the Zapatista communities.

Education: Presentation given by the Education Promoters.

Organization of the Communities: Presentation given by the municipal
commissioners and officials.

Collective Work: Presentation given by the local, regional, and
municipal collectives and coordinators of each zone.

The Struggle of Women: Presentation given by the women of the bases of
support on their forms of organization at different levels, as "the
women that we are."

Autonomy: Presentation given by the autonomous authorities on the
struggles and problems faced in the areas of work, health, education,
trade, civil registry, justice, projects, etc.

Good Government: Presentation given by members of the Good Government
Councils on their function in the construction of autonomy.

Evaluation of the Process of the Construction of Autonomy:
Presentation given by members of the political directive of the EZLN
(CCRI) on advances and problems in the 13 years of existence of the
Zapatista Autonomous Municipalities in Rebellion (MAREZ) and the 4
years of the Good Government Councils (JBG).

Third. The method of work in the plenary roundtables will be:
Presentation of the theme, followed by a session of observations,
questions, and answers.

Fourth. In this Second Encounter the EZLN will have as special
invitees the compañeros and compañeras of the Landless Movement in
Brazil, of the Campesino Movement of Korea, of the Campesino Movement
of Madagascar, of the Campesino Movement of the United States, and of
other compas of the "Via Campesina" organization in Europe, Asia,
Africa, and America. Given this, there will be a special space for the
participation of these compañ[email protected]

Fifth. Inscriptions and accreditations will begin by internet on July
2, 2007, at the following webpages:

www.zeztainternazional.org and [email protected]
Email: [email protected]

Accreditations will be distributed starting Monday, July 16, 2007, in
San Cristóbal de las Casas, Chiapas, at:

The office of Enlace Zapatista: Avenida Ignacio Allende 22-A, Barrio
de San Antonio, San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas.
Telephone: (01) 967 6781013

Additionally, there will be a place for inscription and accreditation
in each of the caracoles where the plenaries will be held.

Sixth. It is recommended that those attending bring the necessary
items to spend the night. In the caracoles there will be affordable
food stands, but attendees can also bring their own food.

We invite all honest, noble, and committed persons of Mexico and the
World to attend.

>From the mountains of the Mexican Southeast.
Indigenous Revolutionary Clandestine Committee—General Command of the
Zapatista Army of National Liberation.


Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos.
Sixth Commission.

Teniente Coronel Insurgente Moisés.
Intergalactic Commission.

Mexico, June of 2007.

rebelworker
4th July 2007, 22:30
As I mentioned before, NEFAC will have a small delegation at this event and the international anarchist gathering in Mexico City the week before, Ill send a report when released.

rebelworker
5th July 2007, 15:35
I personally see a lot of possible potential in tens of thousands of armed, increasingly anti Capitalist, internationalist, reformists who believe in building mass social movements to undermine electoral democracy and bring power back into the hands of the people.

But thats just me...

rebelworker
5th July 2007, 21:19
God i love being called petty burgoise...

Clearly, fr reasons I have argued here and in other places before, the Zapatistas are a large and diverse movement, with different opinions and tacktics within.

If your calling the FARC a revolutionary alternative, then we clearly have different visions of social change, military structures of the FARC variety are not compatable with working class liberation.

But Im a petty burgoise First worlder so what the hell do i know.

The Zapatisatas will not make revolution in Mexico, but people who come out of that movement may just be a big party of it.

The Zapatistas have increasingly tried to make links with the industrial workers in the North, while obviously still focusing on their fellow indigenous movements spread all over he country. There is clearly alot of fututre possibilites that the "other campaign" and that type of grass roots anti capitalist, anti parlamentarian coalition building in Mexico represents.

The Zapatisata have done something that the traditional Mexican left have been largely unable to do for a long time, unite many sectors of the population and inspire a huge section of the population. If the movement continues, and importantly continues to grow and mature, i have alot of faith in their ability to help build the kind of Nationwide revolutionary movement that Mexico is lacking right now.

They are not the be all and end all of revolutionary politics in mexico by any stretch of the imagination, but too many use a dated Vanguard party Model of how things must go, to criticise what is clearly an important part of the developing Mexican Left.

Che Guavera was wrong, deal...

p.m.a.
6th July 2007, 03:15
What the Leninists can't understand is the the EZLN is not a "revolutionary organization" or a "vanguard of socialism" or any such bullshit. The EZLN is the armed body of the 1000+ autonomous municipalities of the Chiapas region, meant to defend their liberated territory against aggression from the state. The EZLN will not "make revolution for mexico", because it is a defensive body of indigenous group of people who already revolted for themselves.

Leo
5th September 2007, 11:37
The Zapatistas are simply "left" nationalists, patriotic defenders of national capital. Their principle aim and motto is very clearly "a full and coordinated defence of national sovereignty". Here's a good article on Zapatistas by communists from Mexico:

http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2005_ezln.html

black magick hustla
5th September 2007, 19:40
Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 05, 2007 03:38 pm
No, not just you. Alot of first-world "leftists" of the petty-bourgeois variety feel the same way. They let emotions and utopian dreams get the best of them, unfortunately.

What is the alternative, then?

The EPR?

As rebelworker mentioned, the "otra campaña" has done much more in radicalizing different sectors, mobilizing masses of people, than the bankrupt, small guerrilla groups that proclaim themselves hardcore "marxist".

If anything, the mexican history of "marxist guerrilla" is THE repetition of same "histories and farses".

There is much more hope in this kind of mass movements rather than the "marxist struggles" led by a few UNAM adventurists.

Saint Street Revolution
5th September 2007, 19:50
Multi-tendency National Liberation. Basically broadly Anti-Capitalist and Imperialist.