Libertarian fascism?

[Dr Mindbender]

..Well is there? :blink:

[Forward Union]

No.

There is such a thing as National-Anarchism or as he's otherwise known, Troy Southgate.

[Dr Mindbender]

I was just curious, what ideaology would be represented by this end of the compass?( Or maybe a bit below or above, i wasnt sure)
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i59/ulstersocialist/00371601.gif

[Dr Mindbender]

Oh okay, I assumed that extreme right=fascism.

What would it have been if i moved the x onto the axis or down onto the bottom right corner?

[Red Militant]

Libertarian Fascism? look up National Syndicalism on wiki there's an article on it.
National Socialism, National Syndicalism, National Bolshevism, what absurd contradictory ideology whose very name is an oxymoron is next?


BTW since National Socialists have the name Nazis and National Bolsheviks have the name Nazbols, what do we call the National Syndicalists?
Cause "Die You NazSyndic Bastard" just doesn't have the ring to it that
"Die You Nazi Bastard" does!

[Tower of Bebel]

definately anarcho capitalism. But it doesn't work right? So on the left side of the scale, is there a type of politics/economics that doesn't work too?

[The Feral Underclass]

There is a party called the Libertarian National Socialist Green Party.

http://www.nazi.org/

[Dimentio]

Ouch, you beat me on that.

The LNSGP are linking to Black Panthers and various Aztlan organisations as well. Apparently, they want to have a Yugoslavian solution in the US, and create three or four nations on the soil of USA. One state for African Americans, one for Latinos and one for WASP;s (called "Vinland" after the Viking name of America).

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 21, 2007 06:13 pm
There is a party called the Libertarian National Socialist Green Party.

http://www.nazi.org/
They are apparently a spoof site

[Naxal]

<<They are apparently a spoof site>>

It has never been clearly worked out whether or not it is a spoof- but I know that there are people who agree with its ideals and so on and take them very seriously.

<<The LNSGP are linking to Black Panthers and various Aztlan organisations as well. Apparently, they want to have a Yugoslavian solution in the US, and create three or four nations on the soil of USA. One state for African Americans, one for Latinos and one for WASP;s (called "Vinland" after the Viking name of America).>>

Firstly, they have NOTHING to do with the Black Panthers, if they have linked up with someone it will be the New Black Panther Party which is closely associated with the Nation of Islam. They&#39;re black supremists and seperatists.

And also, their &#39;solution&#39; is nothing like Yugoslavia- they want to create little states and break down a central state- in Yugoslavia there was an elected central government BUT each recognised region (for instance, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia etc) essentially ran themselves- they took care of local issues and the central government would only step in if the shit hit the fan (Croatian Spring, for example). Secondly, Yugoslavia tried, with mixed success, to build a new Yugoslav identity that would help break down &#39;ethnic barriers&#39; and make a clean break with the past (for instance- everyone hating the Serbs for things that happened hundreds of years ago).

A &#39;Yugoslav Solution&#39; in the USA would be the supression of all Nationalism that was not &#39;Pan-US&#39; while building a new nationalism that was based on &#39;pan-US-ism&#39;. States would be self governing and in areas where a particular group are prevelant then there would be a fair split (so, in Texas the State Government would probably be about 100 people- over 55 would be Black, keeping in line with the population figures). In addition, this would help people to think more POLITICALLY not racially, in Pre-Socialist Yugoslavia there was a lot of "He&#39;s a Serb, I&#39;ll vote for him because he&#39;s not gonna stab me in the back like some filthy Croat"

As for &#39;libertarian fascism&#39;, it was always my understanding that Fascism was designed as a &#39;third way&#39; that integrated aspects of Capitalism and Socialism- so their economic model was base on a system of Corpratisation and in some Fascist countries the Trade Unions took a leading role (Argentina with Peron, for instance). The State was to be a moderator between the Bourgeoise and the Proletariat to ensure that the Bourgeoise did not ruthlessly exploit the Proletariat while ensuring that the Proletariat did not become unhappy and form a worker state. this is why Nationalism was also so vital to the mix- as it was the greater force to bind them together. If you don&#39;t have a state you take away the moderating force within a Fascist society...the theory collapses.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 07:46 pm
definately anarcho capitalism. But it doesn&#39;t work right? So on the left side of the scale, is there a type of politics/economics that doesn&#39;t work too?
What does it even mean to say that a certain ideology "doesn&#39;t work"? How does an ideology "work" or "not work"?

Anarcho-capitalism can work - in the sense that an anarcho-capitalist society could indeed be created - but it would quickly turn into something resembling Somalia. It would be a society dominated by continuous war, enormous class divides, mass poverty and rampant starvation, but it could exist.

Now, as for "Libertarian Fascism", it all depends on what you mean by "libertarian". If you&#39;re using the term in its right-wing sense, to describe a radical free market ideology, then "Libertarian Fascism" could be a good name for the ideology of people like Augusto Pinochet.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by Demogorgon+June 21, 2007 09:57 pm--> (Demogorgon &#064; June 21, 2007 09:57 pm)
The Anarchist [email protected] 21, 2007 06:13 pm
There is a party called the Libertarian National Socialist Green Party.

http://www.nazi.org/
They are apparently a spoof site [/b]
How do you know that? Their website and forum seems very serious.

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by Demogorgon+June 21, 2007 08:57 pm--> (Demogorgon @ June 21, 2007 08:57 pm)
The Anarchist [email protected] 21, 2007 06:13 pm
There is a party called the Libertarian National Socialist Green Party.

http://www.nazi.org/
They are apparently a spoof site [/b]
They are real.

Their ideology is quite representative for third positionism, which have incorporated a lot of ideas of both the new left and traditional fascism.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Edric [email protected] 22, 2007 10:56 am
Now, as for "Libertarian Fascism", it all depends on what you mean by "libertarian". If you&#39;re using the term in its right-wing sense, to describe a radical free market ideology, then "Libertarian Fascism" could be a good name for the ideology of people like Augusto Pinochet.
No, that&#39;s wrong.

Pinochet obviously knew the importance of the State to foster economic growth, and used it quite generously (from a bourgeois pov, of course). He and his cronies never worked under the assumption that the State could cease to exist, or that it should restrict itself to policing and external defence/diplomacy.

"Libertarianism" - right wing "libertarianism" - isn&#39;t a capitalist ideology; it consists in labeling real capitalism, as it exists in real world, "socialism" or "mixed economy", or "corporatism" - and then proposing, under the name of "capitalism", something that cannot possibly exist given the modern development of productive forces: a simple commodity exchange based society. It is only pro-capitalist in the sence it can be manipulated by the bourgeois to their own ends, but it is incompatible with the real functioning of capitalism.

Pinochet, on the other hand...

Luís Henrique

PS. Oh, and are people still taking that ridiculous cartesian model of the political compass in serious? Good grief.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 22, 2007 01:56 am

definately anarcho capitalism. But it doesn&#39;t work right? So on the left side of the scale, is there a type of politics/economics that doesn&#39;t work too?

Yes, it&#39;s called anarchism.

Which strand of left-wing anarchism?
_ _ _ _ _

On the subject of this thread though, I really doubt that it would be possible to present even a semi-decent argument in favour of the two concepts -- libertarianism and fascism -- being logically combined. Because the fundamental positions of each world view contradict each other in numerous ways.

And given that, there&#39;s not really that great a chance that we&#39;ll see adherents to the "theory" at any point in the near future. Troy Southgate aside. (Isn&#39;t he the guy who got thrown out of the bookfair head first a few years ago? Or are there two "national anarchists"?)

[Morello]

Can&#39;t be. Fascism is complete control. Libertarian is optional control, and even if the control is consentual, In Libertarianism the people still mainly run themselves. Theres no way to fuse them and make up a Libertarian Fascist Government.

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by Mark [email protected] 22, 2007 06:09 pm
Can&#39;t be. Fascism is complete control. Libertarian is optional control, and even if the control is consentual, In Libertarianism the people still mainly run themselves. Theres no way to fuse them and make up a Libertarian Fascist Government.
Agreed. Libertarian fascisme is as efficient as authoritarian anarchism.

[Morello]

I&#39;m very confused on how people could be Libertarian ( Optional Government Control, and even when consentual people have almost complete liberty ) and Fascist ( Complete control, The government controls everything you do, say, and think. If you oppose, you are imprisoned.) At the same time. And then they throw Green in there. Environmentalist? Okay...Someone explain them to me.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Mark [email protected] 22, 2007 06:09 pm
Can&#39;t be. Fascism is complete control. Libertarian is optional control, and even if the control is consentual, In Libertarianism the people still mainly run themselves. Theres no way to fuse them and make up a Libertarian Fascist Government.
Mass mentality is often more powerful than state control. What if you had a beourgiouse and majority population who were actively racist in their outlook yet were living under a liberal economy? Would that not constitute fascist liberalism? :blink:

[RedCommieBear]

Well, the easy explanation is that they don&#39;t combine. The ideology of this web-based party is a giant contradiction and really doesn&#39;t make much sense at all.


Originally posted by Wikipedia
The LNSG believes that national socialism is a universal ideology which can be used and applied by any race, tribe, or ethnic group. It claims that national socialism has been distorted by various White nationalist and supremacist movements and actively promoted by the mainstream media and press as being "evil".

I guess they claim to be "tolerant nazis" who believe everyone of any race can be Nazis?. Jeff Weise, an Ojibwe student at Red Lake who shot up his school, was a member of their forum. For more info on that, see Red Lake High School Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Lake_High_School_massacre) and Jeff Weise. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Weise)

[Dimentio]

Basically a US third positionist group vaguely affiliated with ANUS.

They are not fascist, but third positionist, and hence they want a limited state with a free-market economy and some sort of ecologic regulation. They are linking with various Latino separatist groups and the Black Panthers on their website. They want to divide USA into three ethnically homogenous states, and rename their own part to Vinland.

Third positionism is an extreme right-wing populist ideology which basically is reactionary ideals mixed together with environmentalism, hippie idealism, hippie socialism, some primitivism, UFO-theories and new age-spirituality. Often, third positionists will claim to be left-wing, libertarian, environmentalist...

[Morello]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 07:25 pm
The ideology of this web-based party is a giant contradiction and really doesn&#39;t make much sense at all.


Definitely.

[Dimentio]

Well, if one is accustomed to third positionism since earlier, it is possible to classify them as such. I also think they are some form of front for ANUS.

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 09:50 pm
<<They are apparently a spoof site>>

It has never been clearly worked out whether or not it is a spoof- but I know that there are people who agree with its ideals and so on and take them very seriously.

<<The LNSGP are linking to Black Panthers and various Aztlan organisations as well. Apparently, they want to have a Yugoslavian solution in the US, and create three or four nations on the soil of USA. One state for African Americans, one for Latinos and one for WASP;s (called "Vinland" after the Viking name of America).>>

Firstly, they have NOTHING to do with the Black Panthers, if they have linked up with someone it will be the New Black Panther Party which is closely associated with the Nation of Islam. They&#39;re black supremists and seperatists.

And also, their &#39;solution&#39; is nothing like Yugoslavia- they want to create little states and break down a central state- in Yugoslavia there was an elected central government BUT each recognised region (for instance, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia etc) essentially ran themselves- they took care of local issues and the central government would only step in if the shit hit the fan (Croatian Spring, for example). Secondly, Yugoslavia tried, with mixed success, to build a new Yugoslav identity that would help break down &#39;ethnic barriers&#39; and make a clean break with the past (for instance- everyone hating the Serbs for things that happened hundreds of years ago).

A &#39;Yugoslav Solution&#39; in the USA would be the supression of all Nationalism that was not &#39;Pan-US&#39; while building a new nationalism that was based on &#39;pan-US-ism&#39;. States would be self governing and in areas where a particular group are prevelant then there would be a fair split (so, in Texas the State Government would probably be about 100 people- over 55 would be Black, keeping in line with the population figures). In addition, this would help people to think more POLITICALLY not racially, in Pre-Socialist Yugoslavia there was a lot of "He&#39;s a Serb, I&#39;ll vote for him because he&#39;s not gonna stab me in the back like some filthy Croat"

As for &#39;libertarian fascism&#39;, it was always my understanding that Fascism was designed as a &#39;third way&#39; that integrated aspects of Capitalism and Socialism- so their economic model was base on a system of Corpratisation and in some Fascist countries the Trade Unions took a leading role (Argentina with Peron, for instance). The State was to be a moderator between the Bourgeoise and the Proletariat to ensure that the Bourgeoise did not ruthlessly exploit the Proletariat while ensuring that the Proletariat did not become unhappy and form a worker state. this is why Nationalism was also so vital to the mix- as it was the greater force to bind them together. If you don&#39;t have a state you take away the moderating force within a Fascist society...the theory collapses.
They are linking to Black Panthers on their site, but I do not know if it is New BP or Old BP. I do not know if the Panthers are linking back.

With a Yugoslavian solution, I mean that they mean a Yugoslavian solution aka 1991-1995.

[Janus]

Merged.

[Bilan]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 22, 2007 11:56 am

definately anarcho capitalism. But it doesn&#39;t work right? So on the left side of the scale, is there a type of politics/economics that doesn&#39;t work too?

Yes, it&#39;s called anarchism.
Aren&#39;t you a comedian&#33;