The Term "Pussy"

[OneBrickOneVoice]

I recently opened a PM to be called a "pussy" (Because I thought Engels was a good organizer). Do you think this term is degrading to womyn? Part of the patriachial shit which flies around in order to make being a womyn an insult? An example is, "you're a *****" or "your a pussy". Versus "have some balls" considered a "good thing"? What are your thoughts

[MarxSchmarx]

Yes. Ditto with the verb "to *****." The phrases imply an unmistakable contempt for a particular gender, something which people cannot help. I'd add to the similar list tomboys being acceptable, but "girlie boys" are not.

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 12:05 am
I recently opened a PM to be called a "pussy" (Because I thought Engels was a good organizer). Do you think this term is degrading to womyn? Part of the patriachial shit which flies around in order to make being a womyn an insult? An example is, "you're a *****" or "your a pussy". Versus "have some balls" considered a "good thing"? What are your thoughts
Yes it is degrading. In fact, the world pussy always has a degrading connotation except for cats.

[Organic Revolution]

Yes its degrading because its denotes that women are weaker. Pussy, a word for a vagina, is a woman's physical feature, so to call someone a pussy means to call them a girl, implying that women are weak.

[Edgar]

Yeah, I agree it's pretty degrading to women, and I try not to use those kinds of gender derived put-downs.

[TC]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 12:05 am
Do you think this term is degrading to womyn? Part of the patriachial shit which flies around in order to make being a womyn an insult?
Uh, no, but i think the neologism "womyn" in place of "women" is degrading to women :-p.

I mean think about it, you can't even write the word as its actually spelled for concern that the word 'women' is somehow an insults. You can't even discuss women without imposing a politicized identity on us, when you feel no need to do the same in discussing men.

So there you go, kinda degrading :-p. I mean, i feel a bit insulted! You appear to be implicitly supply three billion people with a political identity only relevant to a tiny tiny tiny tiny minority in western universities's gender studies departments and anarchist and american Maoist study groups! It would be like if a Nation of Islam supporter could only talk about black people as 'brothers and sisters in faith' and used that phrase in place of any reference to black people anywhere in the world (or that example might be somewhat extreme but theres no direct equivolent).

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anyways, concerning the original topic of whether "pussy" is "degrading" (the most overused and poorly conceptualized term ever) its not a discussion worth having for several reasons:

1. a vagina and a woman are not conceptually identical, to call someone a vagina is not to call them a woman its only to call them a vagina...just as calling someone a dick isn't to call them a 'man' its to call them a dick, and to call someone an 'asshole' isn't to call them a 'person' its to call them an asshole. References to sexual and excretory anatomy and functions, in males, females, and both, are commonly used as insults, they refer to the body parts and acts because of people's social discomfort with them and private status, so they cannot be interpreted as references to the class of people possessing them. To think that 'pussy' was degrading to women would only make sense if you thought that 'dick' and 'bollocks' was an insult to men, 'asshole', 'shit', 'piss', and 'butthead' insults to everyone, and 'fuck' an insult to non-virgins.

2. Virtually all of these terms when used as insults have a meaning that has nothing to do with the object or act that they refer to, and this is obvious in the fact that various terms refering to the same objects and insults have dissimilar meanings. To use "pussy" as an insult means something different than using "****" as an insult, and to use "dick" as an insult means something different than using "cock" as an insult; the connotations apply to the terms-as-insults not the words as anatomical references.

3. Although you probably don't care because when being a member of the P.C. Police Force, the point is to make a fuss for its own sake not for the sake of truth..."pussy" in the sense of "wimp" isn't a reference to female genitals at all, that use of "pussy" actually predates the use of "pussy" to mean female genitals, it instead refers to cats...the use of the word "pussy" to refer to female genitals developed later and independently. So it actually is not a gendered reference at all.


The fact that you guys are eager to avoid these obvious facts in looking for 'sexism' actually shows more of a sexist attitude than the words themselves, because it seeks to apply one standard of sensitivity to men and male references and a much much higher standard of sensitivity to women and female references. This is patronizing and implies a paternalistic mindset not a feminist mindset, for all of the self-identified feminists taking it who have mis-labeled themselves. Women don't need you to police the language its not that easy to 'degrade' someone. (I think the use of the term 'womyn' truely obnoxious and politically irresponsible, not objectively degrading, the early use of the term 'degrading' was tongue and cheek).


The argument that its okay to apply one standard to 'oppressor groups' and another to 'oppressed groups', only applies when determining the impact of discrimination (being banned from Harvard is worse than being banned from Liberty University in terms of reproducing class, for instance). It does not apply in establishing evidence for oppression or degradation, it does not allow a lower or different standard of evidence because evidential analysis is the basis for political analysis in the first place so it can't be based on the conclusions of one's analysis. That would be circular. (and its been pointed out both by me and every marxist feminist including the otherwise wacky MIM that gender is not a neat point for dividing these groups even though demographic trends relating to power dynamics are gendered)

[OneBrickOneVoice]

I mean think about it, you can't even write the word as its actually spelled for concern that the word 'women' is somehow an insults. You can't even discuss women without imposing a politicized identity on us, when you feel no need to do the same in discussing men.

no its just that 'women' implies that womyn are a subset of man. Why should we continue to use a form of spelling left over from the time where womyn were burned at the stake if they left the kitchen? Its just some straight up patriachial shit. Plus it looks alot cooler :lol:. I don't really think its a big issue though I use both spellings though. If I'm writing a paper or something, I write using the "official spelling" but when I'm basically chatting on a forum, i use womyn.



So there you go, kinda degrading :-p. I mean, i feel a bit insulted! You appear to be implicitly supply three billion people with a political identity only relevant to a tiny tiny tiny tiny minority in western universities's gender studies departments and anarchist and american Maoist study groups!

eh? I don't see what you mean. Wouldn't in that case the word "man" be attaching a political identity to males?


1. a vagina and a woman are not conceptually identical, to call someone a vagina is not to call them a woman its only to call them a vagina...just as calling someone a dick isn't to call them a 'man' its to call them a dick

no but it is degrading because its like an insult to have/be a womyn's body part. And dick is completely different. Pussy is used to imply you're cowardly, wimpy etc... dick is used to imply you have too much self esteem etc... dick is a regular word like guys call each other it with no problem, but if one calls another a pussy then the guy called a pussy will be ticked off and most likely do the thing he's being called a pussy for.


2. Virtually all of these terms when used as insults have a meaning that has nothing to do with the object or act that they refer to, and this is obvious in the fact that various terms refering to the same objects and insults have dissimilar meanings. To use "pussy" as an insult means something different than using "****" as an insult

hardly if at all. And anyway, who the fuck cares? Its still calling someone a feminine body part because it is implied that that would be an insult.


3. Although you probably don't care because when being a member of the P.C. Police Force, the point is to make a fuss for its own sake not for the sake of truth..."pussy" in the sense of "wimp" isn't a reference to female genitals at all, that use of "pussy" actually predates the use of "pussy" to mean female genitals, it instead refers to cats...the use of the word "pussy" to refer to female genitals developed later and independently. So it actually is not a gendered reference at all.

wtf? how am i part of the "P.C police" what shit is that? Because I'm anti-racist/anti-sexist? So are you cool if you see people going around calling others fags and homos?

[Genosse Kotze]

I couldn't agree more with tragicclown. I really can't stand this whole PC-policing of language. When Bill O'Reilly makes a fuss about "Happy Holidays" vs. "Merry Christmas," it's fucking ridiculous and only serves to divert attention away from the very serious matter of the hardcore Christian fascism, which he supports. And I think language policing is the same thing on the other side of the coin. Women are doubly exploited as sex objects for men or as our slaves in the kitchen and black people are getting brutalized by the cops and getting sent to prison in droves...but so long as the people responsible for all this watch their mouths, there's no problem! People have really got to get past this trite bull shit of word choice and start addressing the actual problems.

[ely]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 12:08 pm

anyways, concerning the original topic of whether "pussy" is "degrading" (the most overused and poorly conceptualized term ever) its not a discussion worth having for several reasons:

Long post for not wanting to get into a discussion asswipe. I presume you don't have any objection to asswipe as it is not an insult that refers to anatomical parts alone is it.

[Tower of Bebel]

O my Marx! Do people here think that the people who find pussy degrading don't go to the problem's roots?

[Black Cross]

Originally posted by ely+June 22, 2007 07:38 pm--> (ely @ June 22, 2007 07:38 pm)
[email protected] 22, 2007 12:08 pm

anyways, concerning the original topic of whether "pussy" is "degrading" (the most overused and poorly conceptualized term ever) its not a discussion worth having for several reasons:

Long post for not wanting to get into a discussion asswipe. I presume you don't have any objection to asswipe as it is not an insult that refers to anatomical parts alone is it.[/b]
He's allowed his opinion. There's no need to use those kinds of put-downs in a place like this. Whether or not you think it was dumb of him to make such a long post is besides the point. There is no reason for you to verbally assault your comrades. Try and be more civil in the ways you criticize others' posts.

[Genosse Kotze]

Originally posted by Marxist-rev+June 22, 2007 08:57 pm--> (Marxist-rev @ June 22, 2007 08:57 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 07:38 pm

[email protected] 22, 2007 12:08 pm

anyways, concerning the original topic of whether "pussy" is "degrading" (the most overused and poorly conceptualized term ever) its not a discussion worth having for several reasons:

Long post for not wanting to get into a discussion asswipe. I presume you don't have any objection to asswipe as it is not an insult that refers to anatomical parts alone is it.
He's allowed his opinion. There's no need to use those kinds of put-downs in a place like this. Whether or not you think it was dumb of him to make such a long post is besides the point. There is no reason for you to verbally assault your comrades. Try and be more civil in the ways you criticize others' posts. [/b]
Right on comrade... except for one thing--which is a bit ironic here--I do believe he is a she!

[BlessedBesse]

Originally posted by GrandMonster [email protected] 22, 2007 12:05 am
I recently opened a PM to be called a "pussy" (Because I thought Engels was a good organizer). Do you think this term is degrading to womyn? Part of the patriachial shit which flies around in order to make being a womyn an insult? An example is, "you're a *****" or "your a pussy". Versus "have some balls" considered a "good thing"? What are your thoughts
I conjecture
that what's actually going on here is that you got offended that someone called you a pussy

so you started a thread to prove that this person is a misogynist

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/Smileys/default/emo.gif

[Hiero]

I think when someone calls you a "pussy" they mean you are easily scared or a wimp. I don't see how any can say "you're a pussy, just like a vagina". It just doesn't make sense. The statement "your a pussy, just like a cat" does make sense.

What about the reverse. Would you find it offensive to call someone a cat, because you can call a cat a pussy, and pussy also means vagina?

I think what is offensive is if you use the term pussy or vagina when someone is being reluctant to cooperate with a larger group. Or in some cases when someone says "they are on their periods". I find it similar in this context the word "*****". As it implies you are acting like a woman on her periods who is being stubborn for some conceited reason.

I guess it comes down to two things, intent and context. Which is hard thing to tell. Personally I don't care that much if someone uses the term, pussy or cat if I get scared about something, a movie, an unexpected action etc. I do get annoyed if someone wants me to do something that only benifits themselves and they call me a pussy, *****, vagina, or say I am on my periods, espically for petty reasons, like expecting me to drive someone to the shops.

The first example, being described as a cat isn't that offensive. The second, being describe as a stubborn lady on her periods is offensive.

[Chicano Shamrock]

How the fuck is calling someone a pussy degrading to women? Is pussy synonymous with women? I really don't see the connection here unless you somehow connect the slang pussy for vagina with women and then connect the other slang pussy for wimp with women. I think it would be more degrading to cats because we are making fun of cats for being easily frightened.

[ely]

Originally posted by BlessedBesse+June 23, 2007 03:59 am--> (BlessedBesse @ June 23, 2007 03:59 am)
GrandMonster [email protected] 22, 2007 12:05 am
I recently opened a PM to be called a "pussy" (Because I thought Engels was a good organizer). Do you think this term is degrading to womyn? Part of the patriachial shit which flies around in order to make being a womyn an insult? An example is, "you're a *****" or "your a pussy". Versus "have some balls" considered a "good thing"? What are your thoughts
I conjecture
that what's actually going on here is that you got offended that someone called you a pussy

so you started a thread to prove that this person is a misogynist

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/Smileys/default/emo.gif [/b]
Exactly.

My point was not to call whoever an asswipe - it was to demonstrate offensiveness at a range of terms - which people take as insults. Asswipe is probably gender neutral given that we all have arses that need wiping.

My point was clearly demonstrated by the responses. Thank you for participating.

[TC]

Originally posted by LeftyHenry+--> (LeftyHenry)
no its just that 'women' implies that womyn are a subset of man. [/b]

No it doesn't. How does it possibly imply that? Why doesn't 'men' imply that men are a subset of 'women'? That would make just as much sense. That would be like saying that the word "implies" implies that it is a subset of "imp." Clearly it doesn't. Clearly you're just b.s.ing, the term 'womyn' appeals to seperatist female identitarians who hate men so much that they don't even want to share a vowel with them let alone a society.


Originally posted by LeftyHenry+--> (LeftyHenry)Why should we continue to use a form of spelling left over from the time where womyn were burned at the stake if they left the kitchen?[/b]

Actually i'm pretty sure there was no standardized spelling in english when people were being burned at the stake.

Why should we use a form of spelling shared by a group of people who think that heterosexual women, women who shave, women who refuse to worship the mood goddess, women who express themselves sexually with an implied aim of attracting guys, women who regard themselves as people first, who want to live for themselves and not for someone elses identity, and so on, are somehow 'betraying the sisterhood'?


Its just some straight up patriachial shit. Plus it looks alot cooler laugh.gif.

No, its not, and no it doesn't.

It makes you look lame and it amounts to political co-optation.



eh? I don't see what you mean. Wouldn't in that case the word "man" be attaching a political identity to males?

No because "man" (and "woman") are politically neutral, purely descriptive terms with no connotations beyond their definition. "Womyn" and "wimmin" however are political terms identified with a political ideology with vast connotations beyond their definition.


no but it is degrading because its like an insult to have/be a womyn's body part. And dick is completely different.

SO, its degrading if its "like an insult insult to have/be a womyn's[sic] body part" but its not 'degrading' if its " insult to have/be a man's body part"? That makes no sense at all, you are again, attempting to apply a logical argument inconsistently when the same evidence exists. That shows that your ideology doesn't come from the data but rather its imposed on the data and you ignore inconsistencies rather than abandoning your platform as a real marxist would.


Originally posted by lefty henry
Pussy is used to imply you're cowardly, wimpy etc... dick is used to imply you have too much self esteem etc...

Dick is synonymous with jerk, asshole, etc, it means that someone is a mean or spiteful person. **** and twat when used as an insult mean exactly the same thing (having totally different connotations than 'pussy', which as its been pointed out, as an insult refers to cats).

So whats the difference? There is none.


Originally posted by LeftyHenry
dick is a regular word like guys call each other it with no problem, but if one calls another a pussy then the guy called a pussy will be ticked off and most likely do the thing he's being called a pussy for.

Some friends joking around will call each other the most offense terms in a playful context. Clearly women use the word '*****' as an insult, either seriously, semi-seriously or jokingly, with their friends frequently.

However that doesn't change the fact that being called a "dick" or "prick" by someone not in your peer group or social group would be extremely offensive. Its a real insult and guys would take real offense to it in contexts where it was intended to be offensive.



Its still calling someone a feminine body part because it is implied that that would be an insult.

Calling someone who wasn't a close friend a 'dick' would be insulting not because it refers to a penis its because it refers to them as mean or spiteful or obnoxious people. Likewise 'pussy' or '****' refer to negative personality traits when used as insults, not to anatomy. By comparison, if someone called someone a 'labia' or a 'testicle' it would just be confusing and strange not insulting because those words do not have established references to negative personality traits.


Originally posted by LeftyHenry

wtf? how am i part of the "P.C police" what shit is that? Because I'm anti-racist/anti-sexist?

No, this has nothing to do with racism or anti-racism and as i've pointed out, you making this an issue and consistently politicizing your spelling of 'women' actually makes you more a sexist than an anti-sexist.


Originally posted by LeftyHenry
So are you cool if you see people going around calling others fags and homos?

Uh, no, because 'fag' and 'homo' refer to gay men, likewise i would not be cool with people going around calling others 'girls' or 'ladies' as insults or semi-insults. But thats not what we're talking about. To say "stop being such a girl" implies something very different than "stop being such a pussy". Likewise saying that someone is a 'fag' is different then saying someone is a 'cock sucker'.


[email protected]

Long post for not wanting to get into a discussion asswipe. I presume you don't have any objection to asswipe as it is not an insult that refers to anatomical parts alone is it.

Aww, its so funny how you try to "contribute" to the discussion while being too stupid to have any understanding whatsoever of the issue at contention.

The question is not whether calling someone 'pussy' is insulting or not, clearly it can be insulting, the question is whether its sexist and generally degrading to all women not just insulting to the person its being directed at.

Your misreading of this thread is utterly moronic, clearly anyone would have an objection to be insulted, they would simply object to it on the grounds that its insulting not that its sexist.

So, you calling me an asswhipe doesn't make you a sexist, it just makes you an obnoxious idiot.



Ely

My point was not to call whoever an asswipe - it was to demonstrate offensiveness at a range of terms - which people take as insults. Asswipe is probably gender neutral given that we all have arses that need wiping.

So, obviously missing the point then? The question was never over whether or not something was offensive but whether or not something was sexist. These are two distinct and separate issues, one does not entail the other.



My point was clearly demonstrated by the responses. Thank you for participating.


No, it wasn't, and you making comments like "thank you for participating" as if you've just accomplished something only comes off as patronizing and unjustifiably arrogant. Grow the fuck up.

[LSD]

Although I understand where Tragic is comming from on this issue and certainly sympathize with how frustrating "political correctness" can be at times, I tend to take a softer line on this issue.

The truth is I don't know whether "pussy" originates from sexist roots ...but to be honest I kind of don't care either.

This issue, which for some reason a certain segment of the left seems to be obsessed with, really doesn't strike me as particularly important. Yeah, words shape meaning and sexism is as much a social problem as it is an economic one; but does anyone here really think that eliminating the word "pussy" will actually do a thing to help real flesh-and-blood working class women?

And if not, why are you spending your time worrying about it?

It seems to me that even in the area of culture, there are many more pressing matters that need attention. And sexism is about a lot more tjan just culture!

***

What's particularly interesting here, however, is that while it looks like everyone in this thread save two is unequivocably on the 'pussy' = bad bandwagon, when we ran a poll a few months back over whether or not blatantly sexist comedy perpetuated sexism, the majority voted no!

How is it that people can simultaneously believe that frankly innocuous words like "pussy" are harmful whereas comedians perpetuating sexist stereotypes are harmless?

I'd like to think it's that all the pro-sexist comedy members have left or changed their minds, but I suspect that the reality is less pleasant, that instead there are a number of people out there who do indeed hold those two apparently contradictory opinions.

And that's quite disturbing because the stuff that those people are focusing on is the minor shit and the stuff that they're ignoring is the shit that actually matters.

The left has often been accused of being too concerned with the minutae, I guess we're living up to our reputation... :(

[Qwerty Dvorak]

I pretty much agree with TC here, particularly points 1 and 3 of her first post.

[Vanguard1917]

This is patronizing and implies a paternalistic mindset not a feminist mindset, for all of the self-identified feminists taking it who have mis-labeled themselves. Women don't need you to police the language its not that easy to 'degrade' someone.

Good point.

If you ask me, i think that both men and women need to start growing some balls. The promotion of such hypersensitivity to words is unhealthy for society and can only help give rise to a censorious climate. The PC police force needs to be abolished. Grown men and women don't need to be protected from 'bad words'.

[gilhyle]

My one concern in this debate is that it may linguistically inaccurate. Pussy is used for vagina, though not (in my observation) in a manner intended to degrade. PUssy is also used to suggest weakness. However, I am not convinced that the second usage is derived from the first. I thin, on the contrary, that it is derived from the phrase 'pussy cat' as in 'she/he is a real pussy cat' Not a phrase used much any more but very popular in the 1950s and still in active usage in the 1970s.


Assume for a second that I am correct (altough I may well be wrong), The question then is whether the origins of the term (the facts of the matter) are relevant to the PC issue.

If people believe the use of pussy derives from a reference to vagina, is that belief itself enough to make the term unacceptable ? The arguments on this thread suggest that it is. Perception is more important than facts.

I dont say that that is wrong (Im trying to figure out what I think), but it is certainly a good example of our post modernist, relativistic, respect-based oppositional imperialist culture that the issue could arise in this form.

[RebelDog]

The fact is that one is supposed to destroy ones class enemies and if you don't then you are a pussy and I don't give a fuck about PC arseholes.

[Eleftherios]

Originally posted by Genosse [email protected] 22, 2007 06:53 pm
I couldn't agree more with tragicclown. I really can't stand this whole PC-policing of language. When Bill O'Reilly makes a fuss about "Happy Holidays" vs. "Merry Christmas," it's fucking ridiculous and only serves to divert attention away from the very serious matter of the hardcore Christian fascism, which he supports. And I think language policing is the same thing on the other side of the coin. Women are doubly exploited as sex objects for men or as our slaves in the kitchen and black people are getting brutalized by the cops and getting sent to prison in droves...but so long as the people responsible for all this watch their mouths, there's no problem! People have really got to get past this trite bull shit of word choice and start addressing the actual problems.
I agree. I think some on the left spend too much time trying to find insignificant words that are derogatory when they are really not that important. It is just a waste of time and only diverts attention away from the real problems of society.

[TC]

And thats precisely the political strategy behind liberalism's obsession with political correctness: get people to concentrate on the most superficial elements that alienate them rather than the structural problems.

If women can be made to think that fighting "sexism" is about making sure that guys don't say the words 'pussy' or '*****' or flirt in inappropriate contexts, then they wont recognize it the superficially more friendly attempts to get them increases childcare responsibilities and decrease relative working hours which actually contribute to gender inequality.