What Does Israel Want?

[Intifada]

Israel has been in conflict with the Palestinians and the Arabs since its establishment in 1948. Conflict was inherent in the Zionist project of conquest and colonization of Palestine. Indeed conflict was recognized by Zionist leaders as necessary for the implementation of the Zionist project, for nobody expected the Palestinians to peacefully acquiesce in the loss of their country.

Almost sixty years after the launch of Jewish offensive operations designed to take over all of Palestine, and forty years after the occupation of the rest of Palestine in 1967, and in the face of Israeli intransigence that is dividing the Palestinians and deterring peace, it is imperative to ask: What does Israel want?

Traditional interpretations of the Zionist doctrine suggest that the conquest and colonization of land for the purpose of establishing a Jewish state was the urgent priority of the founding fathers of political Zionism. The rational given by Jewish nationalists was that anti-Semitism was ineradicable, and conflict with the gentile world permanent, and therefore only a Jewish state could offer protection for the world’s Jews.

The Jewish state was forcibly established, and in the process inflicted gross injustice on the Palestinians and came into violent conflict with its neighbors. The Jews of the world did not come to live in Israel, and the question became: Should Israel continue to favor conquest and occupation for the unrealistic project of gathering the Jews of the world in greater Israel, or should it live in peace with its neighbors and allow the Palestinians it victimized to rebuild their shattered society on the remaining 22% of Palestine(Gaza and the West Bank)?

Israeli writer Gideon Levi indirectly answered this question with an article in April in the Israeli paper Haaretz entitled: Israel Does Not Want Peace.

Levy concluded that Israel did not want peace because Israeli leaders rejected the Arab League peace offer made in 2002 and again renewed by Arab leaders meeting in Saudi Arabia earlier this year. The Arab peace offer is based on the international consensus for a solution to the conflict, embodied in the 1967 UN Security Council Resolution 242 formula of land for peace and on a just resolution of the Palestinian refugee problem.

Israeli leaders showed no interest in the offer and Israeli Prime Minister Olmert categorically rejected the prospect of the return to Israel of even one Palestinian refugee.

Levy wrote that this was ‘the moment of truth’. He believes that the dismissal of the Arab League peace offer may have been the breakdown point, and “leaves no room for doubt that the tired refrain that "Israel supports peace" has been left shattered.”

Levy is right in concluding that Israel does not want peace. But he is wrong in thinking that this is a recent phenomenon Notwithstanding propaganda in Israel and in the West, Israeli leaders, with the possible exception of Moshe Sharrett, have not shown any serious interest in peace with the Arabs, while in fact Arab leaders have realistically demonstrated readiness to resolve the conflict peacefully.

This has now been extensively documented by the new Israeli historians. Israeli historian Avi Shlaim reported in his book "The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World" that Israeli archives showed that the claim that Israel had always wanted peace but there was nobody to talk to was groundless. “The Arabs have repeatedly outstretched a hand to peace,” he told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, “and Israel has always rejected it. Each time with a different excuse.” (August 13, 2005)

Shlaim found that Syrian leader Hosni Zam wanted a peace agreement with Israel. King Farouk of Egypt was ready to make peace with Israel. King Abdullah of Jordan also wanted an agreement. Israel turned them all down. Even Nasser, portrayed by Israeli and Western propaganda as war-bent, wrote a personal letter to then-prime minister Sharett, and sent emissaries. These included Abdel Rahman Sadek, the Egyptian press officer in Paris, who, in 1955, conveyed to the Israelis Nasser’s interest in reducing tension and lifting trade restrictions. Israeli leaders showed no interest.

This made sense from the point of view of Zionist leaders. As long as the Zionist project of conquest and colonization of Palestine was incomplete, and as long as Zionist ideology could be imposed by force, there was no reason to abandon the Zionist project for the sake of making peace with the Arabs.

Besides, Zionist leaders rationalized their rejection of peace offers by arguing that their forcible conquest and colonization of Palestine have alienated the Arabs so much that no Arab leader would really want to make peace with them.

In 1956 Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion told Nahum Goldman, President of the World Zionist Organization who was urging him to negotiate a peaceful settlement with the Arabs:

"I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural. We have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to me, but what does it matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it is true, but two thousand years ago, and what is it to them? There have been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, and Auschwitz but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country."

Conflict has therefore always been necessary, first to carry out by force the project of conquest and transformation of Palestine into a Jewish state and second, to justify Israeli rejections of peace offers that threatened to bring the Zionists project to a premature end. Short of completely displacing the rival claimants to the land-which was tried and failed in 1948- Israel cannot live in permanent conflict.

Prof. Adel Safty is author of From Camp David to the Gulf, Montreal, New York.

Link (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=13114)

[LebaneseCommunistParty]

Baddoun yineeko ikht addinei...
ayri bil sa7ayin

[Edgar]

Since Israel is basically the middle-east bulldog of American imperialism, shouldn't we be asking what the U.S. wants in the region? Hegemonic control over the natural resources seems to be the most obvious answer.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 09:58 am
Since Israel is basically the middle-east bulldog of American imperialism, shouldn't we be asking what the U.S. wants in the region? Hegemonic control over the natural resources seems to be the most obvious answer.
What the US wants is unambiguous, as you state.

Israeli policy falls in line with the ambitions of the US, but this does not mean that the Israelis state has its own interests.

Israeli interests are compatible with the ambitions of Washington.

[LebaneseCommunistParty]

The Zionist enemy will be defeated comrade. Next year is the 60th anniversary of the 1948 arab israeli war....let's give them hell...

We must organize...

"Even an idiot knows the taste of bullshit if he's been fed it long enough"

I think 60 years is long enough...

Give me your contact details intifada....

[bolshevik butcher]

What does the Isreali ruling class want? I think to approach the crisis in Isreali/Palesine as the crisis of two national blocs is precisely the wrong approach for socialists to take and precisely the one that so many have taken over the last sixty years, including many in Isreal and Palestine themselves. Are Paslestinians nationally oppressed? Undoubtdly, and we must oppose this as socialists. However the solution to this conflict does not lie in a national solution but in a socialist revolution of a united arab and jewish working class.

[LebaneseCommunistParty]

Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 22, 2007 06:16 pm
However the solution to this conflict does not lie in a national solution but in a socialist revolution of a united arab and jewish working class.
Most of the Jewish working class would rather be oppressed by Jews then join forces with people they consider "terrorists". They trust their own Jewish oppressive governement more than their fellow oppressed, due to religious differences. There are many anti zionist israeli socialist and anarchist groups in israel one being anarchists against the wall. But how many are these really? If they want to join forces against the corrupt arab leaders and evil israeli governemnt with us, then they are welcome.

[bolshevik butcher]

Sure and many arabs wouldn't want to unite with jews, many workers in the world don't want to overthrow captialism either. It is the task of socialists to raise these arguments and try to foster class unity.

[dasright60]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 01:20 pm


Israeli policy falls in line with the ambitions of the US, but this does not mean that the Israelis state has its own interests.

Israeli interests are compatible with the ambitions of Washington.
Also, to be a bit more specific if I may. However won't be that specific to make it short. Israel wants all of Palestine to be Israel and thus sending all of the Palestinians to Jordan. But in order for this to happen, it must happen in phases. Yes Israeli policy does fall in line with the ambitions of the US. But at the same time the US policy falls in line with Israel’s. You have the neo-cons (pro Israeli before anything else) in Washington pushing Israeli policy through congress. And these neo-cons consist of a group of people who believe in the NWO (New World Order) you can read about this NWO at...

www.newamericancentury.org

If you look at STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLES. Majority of those who signed it were the ones jumping up and down on CNN, FOX, and NBC pushing for war with Iraq. This not only sets American policy to rule the world but it’s also in tune with what Israel really wants. I’m not sure if all the specifics are there, you may have to research a bit more (Google). You have to keep in mind it was made public so they can’t let out all the secrets ya know.
Now, seeing that Israel wants all of Palestine to be ISREAL. They need to rid of the threats. Their major threats are Iran, Syria and the other was Saddam. The spreading of religious beliefs and the rest of their idiology. Saddam secretary of the Baath with the Pan-Arab ideology with the same as Syria, which includes all of Palestine to be an Arab state as well as Jerusalem for the Arabs.
At the same time the US with the neo-cons pushing policy wanting to control the world. The NWO policy was written in 1997. At least this is when it was made public. During the first gulf war they tried to push for it by trying to get Bush SR to invade Iraq during the Kuwait war and just go all the way. Bush SR mentions a “New World Order” in one of his State of The Union speeches during his presidency. He supported going to Iraq during the time of Kuwait and is in full support of the NOW. But he went against a full invasion knowing that what is happening now would have happened then. And chose not to do so. But over the years esp. as march 2003 got closer Iraq became a bigger threat. All the oil is bought and sold in US dollar. Saddam had switched to EUROS. Thus causing the US dollar to drop. The euro became worth more than the US dollar. Iran if they haven’t yet are about to do the same which is why the US wants to go to war with Iran. (HENCE all the bullshit about Iranian nuclear weapons these days). Syria falls in line with the huge plane of wanting to reshape the Middle East. Syrians don’t attack the Israeli occupation in Syria but at the same time Israel refuses to sign a peace agreement with them. And then you have the US putting them on a “supporting terrorism” list and putting a lot of blame on them for what is happening in Iraq. (Sounds like good BS you can use as an argument in the future if the US ever wanted to attack).
It’s a bit more complicated than I have mentioned so far but had to get the small parts out of the way so you’d understand.

The US wants to protect the US dollar as well as taking control all of the world’s oil resources so that it can implement its NOW. Reshaping of the middle east by cutting countries like Iraq into 3 smaller countries as well as cutting Syria and causing a lot of problems within a countries politics (Lebanon) and so on.


Note on Iraq: bringing in agents, the mahdi army, militias from Iran as well as those who lived in exile in Iran into Iraq and getting them involved in the Iraqi puppet gov…works well if you trying to cause problems so that one may divide a country.


Bottom line: They want to reshape the middle east to where all countries are the same size if not smaller than Israel so that Israel remains the sole superpower in the middle east. And the US wants to control the world. Israel would love to be the sole superpower and the US would love to control the world. They both work hand in hand.


So I agree with Intifada “Israeli policy falls in line with the ambitions of the US, but this does not mean that the Israelis state has its own interests.” Just have to do some research and read. There is more out there than just that link i pasted. That link only had to do with the NWO.


Sorry for typing out a novel I tried to make it short. I do suck at writing so I hope it was easy to understand.


Peace Out
Wa7da 7ob

[Dimentio]

New American Century died in the flames of Iraq. Most of it's proprietors, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and Cheney, are on the defensive now. They haven't updated their site for ages. I agree with your analysis, but note that the US is getting more cautious now, preferring to use client-states (like Ethiopia) for waging warfare. The Iran issue has become more silent as well.

[dasright60]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 09:58 am
New American Century died in the flames of Iraq. Most of it's proprietors, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and Cheney, are on the defensive now. They haven't updated their site for ages. I agree with your analysis, but note that the US is getting more cautious now, preferring to use client-states (like Ethiopia) for waging warfare. The Iran issue has become more silent as well.
Yes it all backfired because of a well planned guerilla war which they did not expect

[Cheung Mo]

Israel wants to fulfill a tyrannical sky fairy's 5000 year-old dream.

[Mariam]

The Zionist enemy will be defeated comrade. Next year is the 60th anniversary of the 1948 arab israeli war....let's give them hell...

We must organize...

"Even an idiot knows the taste of bullshit if he's been fed it long enough"

I think 60 years is long enough...

Are citizens of the Persian Gulf included??
We've got the worst sock puppet regimes in the Arab world..and one of those states is the one who is responsible along with the US and Israel for the killing of Palestinians..you know who am i referring to!

[BreadBros]

I think its an error to portray Israel as essentially the US's puppet. I think they often have diverging interests. The US's interest is in maintaining stable political situation conducive to foreign investment and business. Israel's goals are fluctuating, from being in line with the US's goals to being more expansionist and I think the US often plays a mediating role in that in pressuring Israel to act less aggressively.

[NDVNDV]

Are you guys serious with this topic?
Israel doesn't have a goal, Israel doesn't have plan and certainly no plans to expand.
It barely has a working government and the only concerns of it's leaders is to stay in office.
Israel has seven million people and therefore it wants seven million diffrrent things, it's called democracy.
But most of all Israel only want to survive in an extremely hostile and ustable environment.

[Black Cross]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 01:06 pm
But most of all Israel only want to survive in an extremely hostile and ustable environment.
So they do have at least one goal.

They say they want the holy land, or whatever. And as long as they believe that they have providential protection on their side, they will not end this war. And Palestine can't just give up because they're getting screwed out of their land and resources. Besides this, Israel probably thinks these are the end times, since the bible talks about the sort of events that are happening in Israel and Palestine right now. I see no end to this war.

[Vargha Poralli]

But most of all Israel only want to survive in an extremely hostile and ustable environment.

But such hostile and unstable situation is the product of Israeli administration. They are the one's who is in fault.

There is no solution to this until many issues like right of return are solved due course.Neither human bombs or the apartheid wall is going to solve this issue. It is in the hands of Palestinian working class the meaningfull solution to Palestine lies.

[BreadBros]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 01:06 pm
Are you guys serious with this topic?
Israel doesn't have a goal, Israel doesn't have plan and certainly no plans to expand.
It barely has a working government and the only concerns of it's leaders is to stay in office.
Israel has seven million people and therefore it wants seven million diffrrent things, it's called democracy.
But most of all Israel only want to survive in an extremely hostile and ustable environment.
Yes, but in democracy there are always significant blocs of like-minded ideas. A significant percentage of the Israeli populace is precisely concerned with territorial expansion. Surely you are familiar with the settler movement and the idea of a Greater Israel?

Whether you see it's operations as geared towards survival or antagonism doesn't really matter, in the end the actions boil down to the same thing, which is aggression against neighbors and the subjugation of the Palestinian populace.

[Revolution Until Victory]

Are you guys serious with this topic?
Israel doesn't have a goal, Israel doesn't have plan and certainly no plans to expand.
It barely has a working government and the only concerns of it's leaders is to stay in office.
Israel has seven million people and therefore it wants seven million diffrrent things, it's called democracy.

what Israel wants is what Rhodesia, French Algeria, Portugese Angola, Aparthied South Africa and all other settler-colonies wanted. very simple.
and no, the zionist settler-colony is no democracy.


But most of all Israel only want to survive in an extremely hostile and ustable environment.

you are talking as if this is a sad or a situation that demands our support?!
great! the zionist settler-colony, and ANY colony for that matter, should always be surviving in an "extremely hostile and unstable environment". what the hell would you expect??
colonize and steal their land, ethnicly cleansing them, establish a settler-colony on thier ruins, and confine them to Bantustans, and then you expect to live in a peaceful environment or something?

no settler-colony can live at peace. all settler-colonies, inculding the zionist one, should be 24/7 living in "an extremely hostile and unstable environment" until its total eradiction.

[NDVNDV]

The great majority of Israelis are secular, they don't believe the land is holy, in the end times or whatever.
Every opinion poll shows a clear majority for peace and an independent Palestinian state.

But such hostile and unstable situation is the product of Israeli administration. They are the one's who is in fault.
It takes to tango and history is long enough for everybody to make mistakes.

what Israel wants is what Rhodesia, French Algeria, Portugese Angola, Aparthied South Africa and all other settler-colonies wanted
You can fool the rest of the world but you can't fool me, i was born here so was my father sixty years ago. seven millions of us here want Israel to exist. I am not denying the Palestinians right to a state please don't deny mine.

[Revolution Until Victory]

Every opinion poll shows a clear majority for peace and an independent Palestinian state.

no


You can fool the rest of the world but you can't fool me, i was born here so was my father sixty years ago. seven millions of us here want Israel to exist. I am not denying the Palestinians right to a state please don't deny mine.

that's just streight stupid. I don't know you are just too desparate in your lies or you are simply stupid coz you are 13 years old or something.

but anyways, I don't see why you mention the fact that you and your father were born in the zionist settler-colony??!!
I hope you are not desparate enough to be implying that the fact you and your father were born here got any significance.
the French colonization of Algeria lasted for not 50 years, but 132. there were French colonizers who were born there, as well as thier parents and grand parents. same thing with Rhodesia and almost all other settletr-colonies. you personally don't have to come over from Europe to be considred a colonizer.
If I remember, you admitted in a previous thread that your family came over from some place in Europe, I think it was Poland.


seven millions of us here want Israel to exist

again, what the hell are you implying?
millions of French people too wanted the settler-colony French Algeria to exist!
milllions of Portugese wanted Portugese colonization of Angola to exist too!


I am not denying the Palestinians right to a state please don't deny mine

lol, Palestinians are demanding their natural right of self-determination. the zionists are demanding their right to steal and colonize Palestinian lands. big difference.
this is as lunatic as comparing the right of the Zimbabwen people to a state, and the "right" of Rhodesia to exist!!!!

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 10:53 pm
The great majority of Israelis are secular, they don't believe the land is holy, in the end times or whatever.
Every opinion poll shows a clear majority for peace and an independent Palestinian state.


It doesn't matter whether the Israelis are secular or religious. In fact the Palestinian Liberation movements in the early stages of struggle were throughly secular. The rise of Islamic militancy is not because of support to religious fundamentalism, but because of the corruption and betrayal of PLO and Fatah.



But such hostile and unstable situation is the product of Israeli administration. They are the one's who is in fault.
It takes to tango and history is long enough for everybody to make mistakes.


Well crimes cannot be polished as mistakes. What the Israeli ruling class did to the Palestinians cannot be justified by any means.



what Israel wants is what Rhodesia, French Algeria, Portugese Angola, Aparthied South Africa and all other settler-colonies wanted
You can fool the rest of the world but you can't fool me, i was born here so was my father sixty years ago. seven millions of us here want Israel to exist. I am not denying the Palestinians right to a state please don't deny mine.

Why is that Palestinians have to live in a seperate state ? Why does Israeli and Palestinian working class people cannot live in one state with equal rights to every one ?

Additionally I was curious to learn about your stance Palestinian Right of Return ?

[Revolution Until Victory]

In fact the Palestinian Liberation movements in the early stages of struggle were throughly secular

not just the early stages, but throughout the whole struggle, until very very recently, after the fall of the USSR. and the most prominant of the 2 relegious movments, Hamas, rose to power through the Mossad itself!

[NDVNDV]

Originally posted by Revolution Until [email protected] 11, 2007 05:39 pm

Every opinion poll shows a clear majority for peace and an independent Palestinian state.

no


You can fool the rest of the world but you can't fool me, i was born here so was my father sixty years ago. seven millions of us here want Israel to exist. I am not denying the Palestinians right to a state please don't deny mine.

that's just streight stupid. I don't know you are just too desparate in your lies or you are simply stupid coz you are 13 years old or something.

but anyways, I don't see why you mention the fact that you and your father were born in the zionist settler-colony??!!
I hope you are not desparate enough to be implying that the fact you and your father were born here got any significance.
the French colonization of Algeria lasted for not 50 years, but 132. there were French colonizers who were born there, as well as thier parents and grand parents. same thing with Rhodesia and almost all other settletr-colonies. you personally don't have to come over from Europe to be considred a colonizer.
If I remember, you admitted in a previous thread that your family came over from some place in Europe, I think it was Poland.


seven millions of us here want Israel to exist

again, what the hell are you implying?
millions of French people too wanted the settler-colony French Algeria to exist!
milllions of Portugese wanted Portugese colonization of Angola to exist too!


I am not denying the Palestinians right to a state please don't deny mine

lol, Palestinians are demanding their natural right of self-determination. the zionists are demanding their right to steal and colonize Palestinian lands. big difference.
this is as lunatic as comparing the right of the Zimbabwen people to a state, and the "right" of Rhodesia to exist!!!!
I suppose you would also want 300 million Americans to move back to Europe or Africa because the land belongs to the native americans
So is your idea of justice is to make us into refugees in order to solve your refugee problem?
After WWII millions of people across the world became refugees including some of my family when they left Poland for Israel, the difference is they stopped being refugees at one point.
The Palestinian are the only ones which are still refugees after 59 years, passing down to their childrens and grandchildrens a key to a door to a house in a village that no longer exist.
I don't have any keys to any house in poland and even if the house still exists, a polish family is living there and is not going to let me move back in.
Me and my Family are here to stay, we are the majority in our country, and you can either accept that and learn to live with us or you can just go ahead and continue to fuck yourself as you successfully have for the last 60 years.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Me and my Family are here to stay, we are the majority in our country,

But wasn't this majority in the modern-day State of Israel created through the ethnic cleansing of the Arab people?

If so, then it is an illegal majority, right?

[Revolution Until Victory]

I suppose you would also want 300 million Americans to move back to Europe or Africa because the land belongs to the native americans

that's a totally different situation.



So is your idea of justice is to make us into refugees in order to solve your refugee problem?

1- never made such a claim

2- I would NEVER consider colonizers returning what they have stolen and colonized as "ethnic cleansing" and I would never consider them "refugees".
colonizers came; colonizers left. very logical and simple.
I certinaly don't consider the French colonizers who left as "refugees", nor do I consider the Portugese colonizers of Angola who left as "refugees" also.
thus, no reason to think of the zionist colonizers who leave as "refugees", rather, an anti-colonial and anti-imperialist act of justice.

but I never suggested they sould leave in the first place!

as Arafat once said "we say no to the zionist state, but say yes to the Jewish people of Palestine"


After WWII millions of people across the world became refugees including some of my family when they left Poland for Israel, the difference is they stopped being refugees at one point

I agree. your family and millions of others stopped being refugees at that point. they became colonizers.
plz, in no way can you justify your actions, based on the fact you were opressed before.


The Palestinian are the only ones which are still refugees after 59 years, passing down to their childrens and grandchildrens a key to a door to a house in a village that no longer exist

I don't see your point. If anything, the above statment affirms the typical barbarity and terrorism of colonialism. the zionsits distroyed the Palestinian villages so people like you can say such things (while claiming to be leftists :rolleyes: )
the excuse that "the village and house was distroyed" doesn't work. sorry.


I don't have any keys to any house in poland and even if the house still exists, a polish family is living there and is not going to let me move back in.

OMG!!! this got nothing to do with the issue!! the Jews of those areas were expelled, but now, they have all their rights back. they got compensation and the right to return. and no, if you can trace your original home, you have every right to go back there and take it back from whoever lives there


Me and my Family are here to stay

in your dreams maybe, IF you are planing to stay as colonizers. colonizers are not welcome.
do you realize the French colonizers said the exact same thing about Algeria?
"France in Algeria is here to stay, its a fact of life, accept it", and the next thing, the colonizers had to leave like rabid dogs, not after a mere 60 years, but after 132 long years.


we are the majority in our country

lol, no one is denying this. but as Spirit have pointed out, HOW did you come to this majority? in the proposed zionist settler-colony of the 1947 parition plan, the arabs were over 45% of the population.


and you can either accept that and learn to live with us

you gotta love those imperialists disguised as "leftists". utterly lunatic.
no, thank you, I will NOT learn to accept colonialism and imperialism.
YOU and your ilk got to learn how to live as equals with the people you colonized, or you sould better start packing up.
and plz don't start demonizing us for wanting to "expell" you.
as I said, colonizer came, colonizer left.


or you can just go ahead and continue to fuck yourself as you successfully have for the last 60 years.

really???
so I guess the Algerian people had to "learn to live" with their colonizers, or "continue to fuck" themselves for 132 years? oh, and you claim to be a "leftist"?? :lol:

history proves you wrong. colonizers were always the ones to be fucked, not the opressed masses.

[BreadBros]

I suppose you would also want 300 million Americans to move back to Europe or Africa because the land belongs to the native americans

Thats quite a big difference. 300 million Americans moving back to countries they are several generations divorced from vs. 7 million Israelis moving back t countries they are at most 1 generation separated from.


So is your idea of justice is to make us into refugees in order to solve your refugee problem?

Presumably you wouldn't have to be a refugee, Poland exists as a state afterall.


After WWII millions of people across the world became refugees including some of my family when they left Poland for Israel, the difference is they stopped being refugees at one point.

No, the difference is your family voluntarily decided to become refugees and leave your homes to settle a foreign land. The Palestinians did not voluntarily become refugees, they had their land stolen.


Me and my Family are here to stay, we are the majority in our country, and you can either accept that and learn to live with us or you can just go ahead and continue to fuck yourself as you successfully have for the last 60 years.

The majority of colonies have been successfully torn down over the past 100 years. I fail to see why Israel would stand to be an exception. If it weren't for American military-aid chances are the state might not even exist. Considering the US's continued troubles abroad, I have to wonder how much support they can continue to give and how far it will reach. Which ultimately points to another fact: the occupation has and stands to continue to hurt Israelis as well as Palestinians.

[Revolution Until Victory]

oh, btw NDVNDV, I have good news for you.
today, the communist PFLP declared its responsiblity for an ambush on a zionist military jeep in a refugee camp in Gazah!!! the PFLP had an armed clash with them for 40 minutes and exploded two bombs in the jeep. there was at least 3 injuries.

hmmm...who's getting FUCKED?

and of course, not to mention the missile attacks by the communist DFLP today on zionist military bases, and other missile attacks by the other Palestinian groups (Fateh, Islamic Jihad, Hamas)

[NDVNDV]

Originally posted by Spirit of [email protected] 11, 2007 07:32 pm

Me and my Family are here to stay, we are the majority in our country,

But wasn't this majority in the modern-day State of Israel created through the ethnic cleansing of the Arab people?

If so, then it is an illegal majority, right?
I keep hearing that term, what kind of ethnic cleansing do you think happened here?
And if ethnic cleansing did or is taking place here, why do we have more then a million Israeli arabs citizens, and why does the palestinian population in the territories continues to grow at a fast (fastest in the world i think) and steady rate?
Could you also classify the disengagement from Gaza a short while ago as an ethnic cleansing of the jews that lived there?
I supported the disengagement and I support two states for two people, separation from us and territories is the only way that could happen.

[NDVNDV]

Originally posted by Revolution Until [email protected] 11, 2007 08:09 pm
oh, btw NDVNDV, I have good news for you.
today, the communist PFLP declared its responsiblity for an ambush on a zionist military jeep in a refugee camp in Gazah!!! the PFLP had an armed clash with them for 40 minutes and exploded two bombs in the jeep. there was at least 3 injuries.

hmmm...who's getting FUCKED?

and of course, not to mention the missile attacks by the communist DFLP today on zionist military bases, and other missile attacks by the other Palestinian groups (Fateh, Islamic Jihad, Hamas)
You seem to like it when people get hurt,
I can only feel sorry for you.

[Revolution Until Victory]

And if ethnic cleansing did or is taking place here, why do we have more then a million Israeli arabs citizens, and

please spare us those idiotic implications. that's as stupid as saying, oh, there are still jews alive today, so what holocaust are you talking about?
ture, there are 20% arabs in the zionsit settler-colony. those are the ones LEFT after the genocide and ethnic cleansing, and are being slowly ethnicly cleansed today.


and why does the palestinian population in the territories continues to grow at a fast (fastest in the world i think) and steady rate?

that's totally unrelated. the Palestinian in the Batustans (west bank, gaza) are being slowly ethnicly cleansed, through measures to make their life unbearable, through such thing as checkpoints and open prison bantustans.


Could you also classify the disengagement from Gaza a short while ago as an ethnic cleansing of the jews that lived there?

haaahaaa. please please NEVER call yourself a leftist!
COLONIZERS evacuation what they have occupied and stolen is JUSTICE, NOT "ethnic cleansing".
according to this "logic", the French colonizers who left Algeria were "ethnicly cleansed" or the Portugese colonizers who left Angola were also "ethnicly cleansed", which is bullshit.


I supported the disengagement and I support two states for two people, separation from us and territories is the only way that could happen.

NO! the TOTAL eradiction of colonialism and imperialism is the only solution.


You seem to like it when people get hurt,
I can only feel sorry for you.

I feel sooooo delighted and happy when opressers are hurt, when colonizers are hurt.
I can't hold my joy when French colonizers in Algeria get hurt, same situation with zionist colonizers.

[Revolution Until Victory]

hey NDVNDV my friend, you still around?

I have another GOOD news for YOU!!!!

guess what?

today, the communist PFLP declared its responsiblity for sinping a zionist solider in Gaza at 12:15 PM.

also, the PFLP had declared its responsiblity today for bombing Sedrot with 2 "Somoud" rockets!!!

stay tuned, MORE to come!!

[NDVNDV]

haaahaaa. please please NEVER call yourself a leftist!
It is exactly the opposite.
You've already passed a brainwash
so there's nothing I can do to change your opinion.

I don't have power to talk with you anymore because nothing will change your mind and your acts.



communist DFLP
is not a real communist movement. you just call yourselves like that.
communists do not call someone that was born in somewhere a colonizer.
they see it as an equal man for every little detail.


those are the ones LEFT after the genocide and ethnic cleansing
What genocide are you talking about?
We didn't have and we won't have any interest to kill anyone of you.
shall i remind you past wars?
did we attack first in any of them?
NO, we just won them cause we can attack back whoever is threatening us.
if we did do a "genocide" you weren't exist now.

[Revolution Until Victory]

It is exactly the opposite.
You've already passed a brainwash
so there's nothing I can do to change your opinion.

I don't have power to talk with you anymore because nothing will change your mind and your acts.

lol, it is YOU that have been brainwashed, not me. I only look at facts and logic.



is not a real communist movement. you just call yourselves like that.
communists do not call someone that was born in somewhere a colonizer.
they see it as an equal man for every little detail.

bullshit. I repeat, the French colonizers in Algeria, who were not just born there, but their parents, grand paretns, if not beyond, were also born there, were certinaly called colonizers. same situation in Angola, South Africa, Rhodesia, Congo and all other settler-colonies. the situation in Palestine is no different.


What genocide are you talking about?
We didn't have and we won't have any interest to kill anyone of you.
shall i remind you past wars?
did we attack first in any of them?
NO, we just won them cause we can attack back whoever is threatening us.
if we did do a "genocide" you weren't exist now.

once again I can't tell. do you hold this view simply coz you are an ignorant 13 years old kid, or you are simply lying.
I'm talking of the ethnic cleansing during 1948 in which around 800,000 Palestinians were expelled and around 500 villages were distroyed and ethnicly cleansed.
and yes, you DO have ALL the interests of killing us.
in past wars, you were the ones to attack in all of them except the 1973 war in which it was an attempt to regain the lands occupied in 1967.


if we did do a "genocide" you weren't exist now

that's just bullshit. I can use the same excuse and claim "oh, there was no genocide against the jews. if there was one, you wouldn't be around today"

[NDVNDV]

I'm talking of the ethnic cleansing during 1948 in which around 800,000 Palestinians were expelled and around 500 villages were distroyed and ethnicly cleansed.
we didn't attack. you attacked and the others ran away by the promise that they'll get their home back and we'll be expelled to sea.
we agreed with the UN decision which represents ALL of the world, and you weren't happy so you attacked, lost at the war aginst thin people that didn't have many weapons, and most were sick people that survived the holocaust, and lost the land that supposed to be yours.
we don't have to give you back the land because of your mistakes.
and if you go into the far past in french in algeria
i can go to our far past too.
i don't believe it the bible stories, but they are findings of ancient hebrew language in this area, and that means that we were also expelled BEFORE you were.


I only look at facts and logic.
what facts?
WHAT logic?
the logic that you're terrorists surroundings told you that is logical.
we're legal with all it implies cause the democratic world decided that we can have our own nation. we didn't say that you can't live here with us. you just don't want to.
whoever wants to is here with us and i have many arabic friends which hates you too.

[Revolution Until Victory]

we didn't attack

bullshit


you attacked and the others ran away by the promise that they'll get their home back and we'll be expelled to sea.

more bullshit. YOU attacked and expelled us.



we agreed with the UN decision which represents ALL of the world

bullshit. the UN decesion didn't represent anything and wasn't just.


and you weren't happy so you attacked,

you attacked first. Half of the refugees expelled and over half of the villages distroyed was before one arab solider set a foot on Palestine


lost at the war aginst thin people that didn't have many weapons

bullshit. the zionist army was much more powerful, huge, and better equiped than the thrid class arab armies.


and most were sick people that survived the holocaust

horseshit. the most powerful youth and young men were chosen by the zionists to colonize Palestine.


we don't have to give you back the land because of your mistakes

what the hell are you talking about?


and if you go into the far past in french in algeria

I gave the example of Algeria to show how the French colonizers in Algeria who were born thier, along with their parents and grand-parents were clearly considred colonizers.


and that means that we were also expelled BEFORE you were.

you invaded the land of the cananites and were expelled. you can't now, after 2000 years, show up again claiming you once lived there. if so, the arabs can show up to Spain and calim they want "their" land "back", and not after 2000 years, but only after 500.


what facts?
WHAT logic?

the facts that zionist invaders colonized and stole Palestinian lands and established their settler-colony on.


the logic that you're terrorists surroundings told you that is logical

no one told me anything.

"you're terrorists surroundings" lol, again, PLEASE NEVER call yourself a leftist!


we're legal with all it implies cause the democratic world decided that we can have our own nation. we didn't

the superpowers, the imperialists, and the colonizers decided that you should have a settler-colony to serve their interists, how is that "legal". many colonial experiences before were "legalized" by the league of Nations.


we didn't say that you can't live here with us. you just don't want to.

lol, no, you, the colonizers, wanted the land without the people. that's why Ben-Gurion was disappointed by the Partition plan coz it gave the zioints too little land and too many arabs.
the Genocide you committed is a clear indication.


whoever wants to is here with us and i have many arabic friends which hates you too.

:( :o

[MisterMarx]

NDVNDV, don't waste your time with this guy,he is nothing but a fanatic and a terrorists sympathizer if not a terrorist himself.
He pretends to be a leftist while he supports the killing of innocent civilians beacuse they are "colonizers".
And as for you "Revolution Until Victory", I would tell to go to hell but you're already living in Gaza, some people get exactly what they deserve.

[Revolution Until Victory]

NDVNDV, don't waste your time with this guy

:lol:


is nothing but a fanatic and a terrorists sympathizer if not a terrorist himself.

:lol: :lol:


He pretends to be a leftist while he supports the killing of innocent civilians beacuse they are "colonizers".

:lol: :lol: :lol:

me, and all rational human beings, supported the Algerain revolution against French colonialism, the Angolan revolution against Portugese colonalism, the South African revolution against European colonialism, and all other revolutions of the opressed masses against colonizers. in all of these revolutions, colonizers, who were not armed, were targeted, from Algeria, to South Africa, to Rhodesia, to North America. the situation isn't different in Palestine. if you consider what I support as "terrorims" then you got to consider the South African, Angolan, Congolese, Algerian, Mouzambiqueian, Cameroonian, Namibian, Indonesian, Zimbabwen, native New Zealand, Native Australian, Native North American, and almost all other anti-colonial resistance as "terrorism". who's pretending to be leftist now???


I would tell to go hell but you're already living in Gaza, some people get exactly what they deserve.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

DAMN, that was funny while it lasted!!!!

[NDVNDV]

PLEASE NEVER call yourself a leftist!
i didn't call myself a leftist, you called.
i have no political view and have no effect on israel's politics.
i'm just saying that you're a fanatic that include all jews as one.
about the arabics that hate you... almost all of israelis arabic do hate you.
so when you try to hit the jews for being jews you attack all of israel inc. its arabs and muslims which you love so much.
if we'd expel you, why i'm still living with lots of arabs?
and talk with them, make fun with them, laugh about things, curse people like you together and that what i call HUMANITY.
and you're kind of a robot,maybe a cylon that want humanity to respect you as a race too. but bad robots are like bad ants. if i could i'd spray you.


DAMN, that was funny while it lasted!!!!
you're in hell indeed.
but maybe now you're with the people who manage it.
and if you won't be, they'll kill you as they kill each person that doesn't support them

[Red Scare]

not to sound like a conservative or anything or a pro-zionist but israel gets into most conflicts because its attacked....

[Revolution Until Victory]

i didn't call myself a leftist, you called.

if you didn't, then good.


i'm just saying that you're a fanatic that include all jews as one.

when did I ever do such a thing?


about the arabics that hate you... almost all of israelis arabic do hate you.

bullshit


so when you try to hit the jews for being jews you attack all of israel inc. its arabs and muslims which you love so much

we don't hit "jews for being jews".


if we'd expel you, why i'm still living with lots of arabs?

did you even read what I wrote? I can use the same excuse and claim the Holocaust didn't happen. I can easly say "if the nazis had murdered you, why are there still jews living in Gernamn?"


and talk with them, make fun with them, laugh about things, curse people like you together and that what i call HUMANITY.

lol, PLEASE don't talk of humanity!


and you're kind of a robot,maybe a cylon that want humanity to respect you as a race too. but bad robots are like bad ants. if i could i'd spray you.

what????? how am I a "robot"?


but bad robots are like bad ants. if i could i'd spray you.

WHAT!? why do you want to "spray" me?!

[Red Scare]

i dont support israel or the PLO, i find it a very iffy topic

[Revolution Until Victory]

not to sound like a conservative or anything or a pro-zionist but israel gets into most conflicts because its attacked....

1- it's a good thing that imperialists and colonizers are attacked

2- I dont't think this is right. most of the time, the colonizers are on the offensive.

[dannthraxxx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 04:04 pm

But most of all Israel only want to survive in an extremely hostile and ustable environment.

But such hostile and unstable situation is the product of Israeli administration. They are the one's who is in fault.

There is no solution to this until many issues like right of return are solved due course.Neither human bombs or the apartheid wall is going to solve this issue. It is in the hands of Palestinian working class the meaningfull solution to Palestine lies.
you're exactly right, i dont think anymore needs to be said.

Israels problem is the Israeli administration. I think as someone said earlier, Israel wants to expand and "control it's people in a better way." However, the way they go about doing this, oppresses the majority of the people. The entire situation is fucked. The entire middle east needs organization and community. The bullshit religious quarrels need to end, and the working class need to realize that they're all in trouble.

[Revolution Until Victory]

i dont support israel or the PLO, i find it a very iffy topic

http://www.victims.org.uk/images/plo.jpg

[NDVNDV]

most of the time, the colonizers are on the offensive.
so this time NOT!


why are there still jews living in Gernamn?"
cause the germans want them to work for them,
or they escaped from the getho.

how can you compare what we "did" to the holocaust?!?!?!?!
i'm glad that you live in hell, but i want you to burn in it too.
so maybe i'll do what people like you do, and buy a cute rocket, findout where you live and launch it to you?!
but i can't, cause in MY LEGAL COUNTRY it is FORBIDDEN and WRONG to do it. so i guess i'll just let you burn in hell, in hope that a soldier will hit your house (just yours) and just you will be in this house,
and a sharp thing will hit your arms and cut them out.
and you'll die suffering

[Revolution Until Victory]

so this time NOT!

what do you mean "this time"? what incident are you referring to?


how can you compare what we "did" to the holocaust?!?!?!?!

lol, how on earth did you understand my statment as comparing your atrocties with that of the nazis??? I never made such a claim. sure, there are many things the zionists are doing to the Palestinians in which the Nazis did to the their victims, but neddless to say, the holocaust was much more massive and brutal.
I never equated the two.


so maybe i'll do what people like you do, and buy a cute rocket, findout where you live and launch it to you?!

really?? this what people "like me" do??
seriously, you sure you are 13 not say 10 or 8??


but i can't, cause in MY LEGAL COUNTRY it is FORBIDDEN and WRONG to do it

it's wrong in ANY country (including your ILLEGAL settler-colony) to go kill someone simply coz you don't agree with him/her.


in hope that a soldier will hit your house (just yours) and just you will be in this house,
and a sharp thing will hit your arms and cut them out.
and you'll die suffering
:wacko:

[NDVNDV]

what do you mean "this time"? what incident are you referring to?
the israelis "colonizers"


it's wrong in ANY country (including your ILLEGAL settler-colony) to go kill someone simply coz you don't agree with him/her.
for hamas it isn't... this is exactly what i'm saying and you admitted it!!!


really?? this what people "like me" do??
almost all of palestines like you have atleast a kalashnikov... do you have one? i'm sure you do.

[Revolution Until Victory]

the israelis "colonizers"

what? so you mean throughtout the history of the zionst colonizers, they were on the defensive? right.


for hamas it isn't... this is exactly what i'm saying and you admitted it!!!

Hamas won the elections of 2006. Fatah, refused to give up power. Hamas had to act. also, there was this section of Fatah who were US-Zionist collaborators. Hamas had to get rid of them. of course, It would have been much better for Hamas if it let Fatah deal with its collaborators adn solved its problems with Fatah through dialouge not through violence.


almost all of palestines like you have atleast a kalashnikov... do you have one? i'm sure you do.

what the hell does that have to do with anything?

it's the zionists who are always armed.

[NDVNDV]

so you do have a gun....
and i don't know even one civilian who has a gun.
just a father of a friend that was an officer and has a pistol.
only soldiers and criminals have guns.

there's nothing more to say.

though this picture says something
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/6311/14921492148914911500148ei9.jpg

[Revolution Until Victory]

so you do have a gun....

this was my response to your question:


what the hell does that have to do with anything?

it's the zionists who are always armed.


what a stupid picture. repeating this stupid piece of propaganda that Palestinians "use thier children" as human shields.
but I have better things than retarded and bassles drawings for you:

video footage (as opposed to your retarded drawing) of Zionists using Palestinians as human shields (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tomdEkOgdKU&mode=related&search=)

More video of human shields. 11 years old girl used as human shields by zionist mlitary (http://youtube.com/watch?v=YiO0GYsyR4A&mode=related&search=)

enough?

[NDVNDV]

repeating this stupid piece of propaganda
and what about hamas' propaganda

we don't kill them for being jews. they're colonizers cause they were here all the time and i don't have who to blame for being stupid


More video of human shields. 11 years old girl used as human shields by zionist mlitary
why didn't i see it? i just saw her talking about it and soldiers from time to time.
and this action was forbbiden by the government a while ago...
btw.. can't you see the difference between using your own children and using the enemy's children?
and i saw just the first second of the first video... occupied palestine?!?!
by who exactly?!
what about the detaching in gaza few years ago?

--

how's that that no one sent a comment for those films?
cause no one believe your ridiculous propaganda


it's the zionists who are always armed.
i already told you that no one in here has any weapon...
especially not like the palestinian children which i keep seeing in TV that have weapons

[Andy Bowden]

The picture is nonsense and regardless of what the Israeli High Court has demanded, the use of Palestinians as human shields has continued, as testimony of witnesses and video evidence shows. Or is an 11 year old Palestinian girl lying?

Wheres the evidence Palestinians use civilians as shields? AI and HRW found no evidence of the practice in Lebanon - and both these organisations have accused Hezbollah of committing war crimes so they are not biased in their favour.

[Revolution Until Victory]

and what about hamas' propaganda

what Hamas propaganda?


we don't kill them for being jews. they're colonizers cause they were here all the time and i don't have who to blame for being stupid

what the hell is that?


why didn't i see it? i just saw her talking about it and soldiers from time to time.

I know, but the incident of this girl was reported by Bet'selem and HRW


and this action was forbbiden by the government a while ago...

SO??


btw.. can't you see the difference between using your own children and using the enemy's children?

HAAAAHAA, you are talking as if it is a proven fact that Palestinians use thier children as human shields and Zionists use Palestinian children as human shields.
but the reality is, the zionists simply accuse Palestinians of baseless crap with no evidence, while the evidence is clear of zionists using children as human shields.


and i saw just the first second of the first video... occupied palestine?!?!
by who exactly?!
what about the detaching in gaza few years ago?

the first video got footage of Palestinian youth being used as human shields.
the land is occupied by whome exaclty? by your ilk!
the zionist soldiers simply changed their position in Gaza. they are STILL occupying gaza and controlling its borders, air space, movment etc.


how's that that no one sent a comment for those films?
cause no one believe your ridiculous propaganda

1- no one commenting doesn't mean they don't believe it (!)

2- even if you want to send a comment, you CAN'T coz the user had disabled this feature!


i already told you that no one in here has any weapon...

bullshit
I dont' need you to tell me. I have seen for myself.

[Faux Real]

Not to get into the crossfire but I generally believe that the Israeli military deserves whatever comes their way. They knowingly put themselves in the position to defend a systematic genocidal regime and the displacement of the former Arab majority in the area.

As for calling militant Palestinian organizations terrorists is an extremely absurd definition because of the decades of second class citizenship has worsened for their people. Militant operations vs the Israeli army or politicians classifies as just that. Unarmed civilians on the other hand... well you get the idea and know which side has destroyed generations of lives.

I stand(or sit rather) in support of the genuine resisters against Zionist capitalism and complacency. Fatah sold out to American and Israeli while Hamas clearly has popular support due to their social welfare programs. A real tragedy for the Palestinians that they have been divided in half.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 22, 2007 06:16 pm
What does the Isreali ruling class want? I think to approach the crisis in Isreali/Palesine as the crisis of two national blocs is precisely the wrong approach for socialists to take and precisely the one that so many have taken over the last sixty years, including many in Isreal and Palestine themselves. Are Paslestinians nationally oppressed? Undoubtdly, and we must oppose this as socialists. However the solution to this conflict does not lie in a national solution but in a socialist revolution of a united arab and jewish working class.
I agree. There are far too many on the left that think of Israel as one reactionary bloc. Israel is a class society, and history will deliver a decisive blow against such people that don't see Israel in class terms.


so you do have a gun....
and i don't know even one civilian who has a gun.
just a father of a friend that was an officer and has a pistol.
only soldiers and criminals have guns.

there's nothing more to say.

though this picture says something
user posted image


I own guns, and I am not a criminal. That picture of yours is very reactionary, if not racist. :angry:

[Faux Real]

I agree. There are far too many on the left that think of Israel as one reactionary bloc.

The difference is being able to tell the Israeli civilians vs the government, which is very repressive/reactionary.


Israel is a class society, and history will deliver a decisive blow against such people that don't see Israel in class terms.

The Israeli working class needs to be in a position of power which it clearly isn't and letting the US run it for them. Only then will peace be on the horizon.

[Revolution Until Victory]

NDVNDV, how is it going? how are you today my friend?

yes yes you guessed it!!!! yet more good news!

the communist PFLP today declared its responsiblity for attacking a zionist military post and damiging and putting out of action a Hummer vehicle after firing at it and throwing their hand gernades!!! :D
the PFLP affirmed there was an unspecified number of casualities, but, like always, the zionists denied any.

[hajduk]

ISRAELIAN NATION GOT THE STOCKHOLM SYNDROME BECOUSE DURING THE WORLD WAR 2 THEY BEEN PROSECUTED BY NATCIES,SO IN A MEANTIME THEY BECOME LIKE NATCIES AND THEY WHANT TO BE LIKE THEM.