Families & School-Policy - Authoritarian or Libertarian

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

*By libertarian, I don't mean America anarcho-cappies, I mean the opossite of authoritarian

In schools and in homes, should parents and teachers be authorotative or not?

[canikickit]

I think it should be important to educate children (and all people, in fact). Some children need disipline, and will not learn without some sort of restraint.

[Valkyrie]

Bootcamp type authority(which some parents and teachers practice) stifles because it tends not to compromise or seek past it's limitations. not an environment that allows a kid to flourish. It wasn't too long ago when the customary "kids should be seen but not heard" was the law of the land. Luckily, society became wiser to that.



(Edited by Paris at 1:11 am on Feb. 26, 2003)


(Edited by Paris at 1:19 am on Feb. 26, 2003)

[Pete]

True, it is important to teach children, but literacy and how to ask and answer questions should be the priority, not discipline. If a child finds something they are interested in (say the sand box) they will be disiplined in the study of sand castles until they move on to something else. I believe disipline is in human nature, and is created with interest. Therefore it does not need to be enforced, just created through exploiting (bad word) each childs innate interests at an early age.

[RedFW]

I agree, CrazyPete. I suppose everything depends upon what one defines as discipline. Younger children seem to want to be recognised for pleasing their parents and teachers (if it is a good teacher). I also think having/making the time to explain why a certain type of behaviour is unacceptable and both encouraging behaviour that is acceptable, recognising and praising behaviour that is good are all very important. And it does work, but I don't want to look down on parents who do try different methods, especially those parents who genuinely want to help their children improve their behaviour. I personally am against physical discipline.


When I was growing up, I would be physically disciplined and without explanation. I was never told either what I was doing that was wrong or why what I was doing was wrong. It was very confusing and probably engendered much resentment for physical discipline in me.

[redstar2000]

I don't think there is any acceptable "excuse" for the use of violence against small children.

As for learning situations, the answer is a simple one: if the kid wants to learn this particular thing, s/he has to sit still and listen...if s/he doesn't, then s/he should leave and go to a class where something s/he's interested in is taking place.

Trying to "make" or "force" people to learn things will "work" after a fashion...yet most people in such environments come out of them fiercely determined to never to learn anything again! They largely succeed at that.

:cool:

[Pete]

Ahhh the re-statement that Cani was talking about in the CC :biggrin:

I was thinking a bit more into this subject. Government is destructive to the human interest. As most of you know I am anachro-communist, so this may not be a surprise, but I will explain.

A government is a body that puts limits on what someone can do or think. That is what laws do, limit. Sometimes they increase limits, other times they decrease them, but when you boil it down every law limits you in a way. I said above that the human spirit will seek what it is interested in, but what if you are interested in something illegal? The natives of the West Coast of Canada (ie the Haida) were banned from preforming Potlachs (ask and I will explain :) ) but the Canadian Government outlawed it as barbarious. Yet since the wealthy Haida wanted to preform them, they still did. How can you charge someone for giving everything they own to the poor? Really? Another example is weed. The law against it makes people interested about it. If you abolish the ban, sure B.C. will have its economy soar above anyother province to heights unimaginable, but after the intial kick it will turn into something like alcohol or cigarettes. You are allwoed to do it, so why bother?
By removing all laws, people will keep to moral law without realizing it. No one will kill anyone, for the most part their are always exception, and society level out so that everyone gets what they need. There are no longer laws that prohibit stealing if you are starving and no more money to trade with. You need it you get it. Some people will tell me that the world will descend into choas, and I say you stalinist/trostykists can fuck off and learn to trust your unbrainwashed comrades. Humans are communal creatures. We have evolved so we help the unfortuante and hurt eachother as little as possible. Impose a power structure (a defect in the precommunal society) and it all goes to hell. So if we remove the brainwashing of the bourgeoisie, remove the power structure, move forward into an advanced stage of communal living (never move back that leads to shit too). When only moral inscentives mean anything, because everyone will be fed and sheltered like in an Innu family (the power structure turned an improportionate number of youth to glue and alcohol :( ), then only things essential to the community will be completed. No more profit, just happiness. You want to learn about childern in Guetmala at a certain festival? go on the net and check it out and then see if any of the intercommunal transportaion thingies work.
That is enough for now. I diverged greatly. There is more but I did alot of writing for school tongiht an I am feeling wierd. Like when you watch too much tv. Everything is getting small. Wow.
Pete

[canikickit]

I don't remember saying that.

The natives of the West Coast of Canada (ie the Haida) were banned from preforming Potlachs

ask

[Pete]

The thing about saying something that the perosn before you said and then being praised for it...

Anyways the Haida have a tradiotion called the Potlach to prove wealth. At a potlach you invite everyone from the surrounding villages to your longhouse for a huge feast. You supply all the food and entertainment. At the end of the feast, the longer (in days) it lasts the wealthier you are you give away EVERYTHING. Your house, your food, your clothes (even what you are wearing) your canoes, your weapons, absolutely everything. It is the greatest way of proving wealth that I know. Each person gets an equal share that came.

[canikickit]

I think that's fucking deadly. I think it would make more sense to make it law, rather than outlaw it.

[Pete]

Umm Deadly?? Yes, the law has been removed and a level of self governance has been giving to all first nations in Canada. The Cree own over 50% of quebec and basically can overturn provincial laws if they care to. The Innu have complete self government in Nunavut (as a Territory, or a second class member of the state). The only problem with Western Natives and Innu not in Nunavut is that they have had either no treaties or limited treaties with either Great Britain, British Columbia, Yukon, the NWT or Canada, so shit can change really quickly depending on how the last decade of treaty writing turns out.

(Edited by CrazyPete at 10:26 pm on Feb. 26, 2003)

[Valkyrie]

Hey CrazY Pete,

I am familiar with the potlache ceremony too! Haven't been to one though, yet, but really like the potlache idea. I'm part native America, descendent of the Mohawks of the six nations Iroquois; non-reservation for atleast 3 generations back, and thus pretty culturally removed from their traditions. I know the six nations are also in Ontario. I was wondering if you knew the status of their living conditions there. In the US, the six nations Iroquois: the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Tuskarora, Cayuga, & Seneca are living on lands that are superfunds (toxic dumping waste lands.) Their living conditions are very poor so I was wondering if it was the same for them in Canada. I should speak out more about this issue because they are really forgotten people.

Thanks!

http://tuscaroras.com/pages/history/six_nations.html





(Edited by Paris at 5:43 am on Feb. 27, 2003)

[Pete]

There is a law in ontario that says casinos can only be built on Native Lands. This means that the Natives get all the profits from the casinos. Which means some groups are very rich while others are dirt poor. I know little about the status of Individual nations. I remember abit about Ipperwash when CIC officers (supersubreserve...waht my dad is) where faced with a Native war party and they shot at them. These people who most of them are not qualified to touch a weapon made a fool out of the enitre CF, but that is something difference. There is a stereotype in Canada that all natives are alcoholics, some are it is true but alot aren't. Many are successfull in improving the quality of their reserves (which are ancestreal lands un contaminated for the most part by westerners), and I was in one in the summer. Michimicoten Ojibway Nation which is just north of Lake Superior Provincal Park, where I worked last summer, and they were living, while at a lower level then my town, above the levle of the non-native villiages of the area. They have less dependency on the government because tehy pay no taxes, all governmental services are free (university, tolls pst/gst) as part of their treaty rights. But dating back to Bishop de Laval in the 1600's alcohol is prohibbited on native lands.
That natives have a diverse culture. I have looked at some pictographs at Agawa Bay (i dont know how know they are) and they are amazing. I respect them, and if I could would like to spend some time with them in their tradiotional ways. As I said I know little abou tthe natives in southern ontario, other then they own all the casinos and are filthy rich, the Ojibway up north is a bit of a different story, they can hunt all year round if they want. Basically only their laws apply to them (unitl it breaks a major law like say murder or rape) and they are living well. Not on sewage dumps as is the unfortuante case for your (I dont know people??). Overall there are only 6 Iroquois nations. Traditionaly they stay away from Canada because the French thumped them with their scarred ground technique in the late 1600s. But the reason, in my opinoin, of why the Canadian First Nations are doing so much better then the American ones dates back to the same period. The French colonized New France for two things. Cod and Fur. St. Pierre and Miqolqueen (sp) are still french colonies in the Gulf of St. Lawerence. The furtrade envolved the French trading heavily with natives. They allied with them, when Champlain first set up Quebec he fought with the Huron against the Iroquois, the first use of fire arms in thsi part of the world. They made allies with as many of the other tribes as they could to fight against the British with, and after the American Revolution and the genocide the pursued, the Natives began alliing with Britain against America (I forget his name. A hero of the War of 1812. He was umm... Fox maybe? No. Thats not it.) Oh it was Tecumshe and the Shawnee! They allied with the british. ALthough Canada has a past of the Residental schools up to the 1980's assimillation (botched) has left our First Nations in better conditions then genocide did in America.
But this is for a nother thread.

[Apprentice of Marx]

Im 14 years old and by my own experience there should be some form of authority in schools but that should depend on the students
Some need extra help and they should get it

Some are messy and need to have someone to watch them so that they consentrate

Some are can concentrate on what they're doing whitout any help

so it should depend on the student

I would be a mix between The ones who can consentrate and thoose who need someone to keep them concentrated

i dont have any troubles with understanding but pretty disturbing to everyone else because i speak very much!

[Pete]

Another example from my knowledge of Canadian History (I've taken all the history courses I could except Womens history since grade 7...so 10 or so. My mind is over flowing).
Displine in school can have adverse affects, drawing on my divergent posts about native culture I will show you how residential schools show this. The children were forced to go to these schools to learn how to be a proper Canadian. While there if they spoke their native tongue they would be beaten. If they practiced a native religion they would be beaten, and sometimes they would get a kerosene shower. No lie. Many natives commited suicide or dropped into serious depression while in these schools, more died of depression and suicide after they left. They had their entire way of life beaten out of them so they could conform with an invading culture. Seriously this was the most uneffective method of teaching about Western culture. Death is not an excuse in education. If it forces people to kill themselves, a largish number I believe did, then something is fundamentally wrong with the school. Their are boarding schools, private so they can do what tehy want, with high discipline and similar effects. Is it a wonder that the less discipline there is the higher the attendance and lower the depressoin and suicide levels are? People ran from the residential schools, they were beaten and locked in small spaces when they returned. 'It will make them good christians' the public was told. Into the 1980s these schools still existed.

Discpline = Bad
Extreme Discpline = Evil

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 8:17 am on Feb. 27, 2003
A government is a body that puts limits on what someone can do or think. That is what laws do, limit.


The people should not service the government, instead the govenrment should service the people. Laws enstate order and fairness. In communism, we may need to supress certain things, such as ruthless desires to buy crap, but we cannot supress our need for fairness and order.

[Blibblob]

*throws out full disgust of athority* ATHORITY IS BULLSHIT, dicipline is dangerous, and leaders cannot be tolerated.

Disipline is what drives humans to war again and again. One person gets the idea to go to war, brainwashes the populace, and diciplines them to follow him. Not a single one will actually thing for themselves if this is moral or not.

Leaders do stupid things all the time, but people still follow them, its called "what he told me to do is stupid, but hes the president, i should follow everything he says". Try reading Ender's Game, it threw the entire athority, dicipline, commaders thing into perspective for me.

The populace should decide, not a few who installed their dicipline.

[canikickit]

There is a law in ontario that says casinos can only be built on Native Lands. This means that the Natives get all the profits from the casinos.

I heard this before (was it in Catch 22?). Why the hell is this? What way does it work, do they sell the land to the prospective casino makers?


The French colonized New France for two things. Cod and Fur.

They probably liked the name and thought it would look well with the rest of their property. They suit each other.

Deadly means really good.

[Pete]

"I heard this before (was it in Catch 22?). Why the hell is this? What way does it work, do they sell the land to the prospective casino makers? "

No they are the casino makers. It is a way of limiting certain industries so that there will be no compitition. Aswell they can say AHAH! I'm getting you back for your evils slowly as you become hooked to my casino! They pull something like 90% of the profits and the governemnt gets 10%

[ireallyhadablackout]

Quote: from Apprentice of Marx on 12:34 pm on Feb. 27, 2003
Im 14 years old and by my own experience there should be some form of authority in schools but that should depend on the students


wow. you said it. the educational systems must move on with the times like the people do.

in my observations i see some teachers failing in their abilities to properly analyse and educate classrooms which are usually over crowded.

in some way, i favor a more authoritative type environment, especially now with terrorist activity and violence on the rise.

for instance, the teachers can take on more of "security" type roles. await the students before the bell rings so they know whos walking who to school and who is picking up who...etc. as the students get older, the teachers should still be aware of each students social character and how they interact outside of the classroom while continuing to provide a safe learning environment for the students. it may sound like alot of work, it really isnt. what is harmful is shoving a bunch of meaningless garbage down a kids throat and then letting lose in society.

children evolve too, its not only an adult thing. so we create environments that stimulate ideas and concepts that will empower the children so they grow and learn in their own directions.

dont give kids a lecture on drugs, then send them home to a conflicting environment with a certificate that says something like "just say no to drugs." instead, have qualified police and law enforcement officials talk to the students so they can tell their side of the story, explain their role, and how drugs effects their community.

if we truly believe that we cant tell children the truth about "certain" things then we should not be discussing such a controversal subject such as "illegal drugs". i dont want conservatives putting unrealistic ideas in my childs head without helping them understand why.

make the police and law enforcement active in the educational system to some extent and keep them out of "domestic violence" issues. let the religious groups handle those issues.

oh, and free lunch for every kid who goes to school if he or she so desires it. they're kids for crying out loud!



(Edited by ireallyhadablackout at 5:02 am on Feb. 28, 2003)

[ireallyhadablackout]

crazy pete. hey!

you bring up so many issues i wish i had the time and ability to at least present a good agrument.

being intrigued by law, especially where it concerns human rights and the indigenous we could talk about this for days im afraid.

we have casinos here to yet it seems that the state has their hands so deep into the pot, im fear the natives will get a bad deal being that the governor has already refused to consider the votes of the people by going ahead and signing documents that give the non-indian state a percentage of the profits by allowing more slot machines to be purchased and used in the casinos.

there is great hope, i believe. one must look closely and deeply to find it. its there my friend, and its for us all!

[Geddan]

I say teach them bourgeoisie pigs what happens when you defy the communists.

Jokes aside, education should be seen as something which shall benefit the students. The things taught will pay themselves back when the former students start working and contributing to society. You shall not erase discipline, but it shall definitely not be in focus. The thing that should be focused on is the students' knowledge, as CrazyPete said.

(Edited by Geddan at 6:59 pm on Mar. 10, 2003)