Hip Hop is CAPITALISM.

[R_P_A_S]

seriously.

the large majority of these ghetto kids aspiring to be a rapper. want what 50 Cent has..and rappers are now brand names. they are entrepreneurs and they love capitalism. It it weren't for capitalism. there would be no hip-hop.

well.. we know of the underground hip hop and political hip hop..

but im talking of main stream hip-hop. what most of the people love.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Hip-hop has been co-opted by capitalism, perhaps, but then again, there is progressive stuff in hip-hop too.

I mean, 2pac, for instance. Or more recent, Immortal Technique.

[Comrade Marcel]

This is a pointless thread. You might as well say all music is capitalism, since all mainstream shit is used to generate profits.

For some reason you chose to shit on hip-hop. The title of this thread is even stupid. Capitalism is a socio-economic system; Hip-hop is music, art and a form of expression and entertainment. It has very proletarian roots, is part of a wider culture/sub-culture, and is represented by a wide variety of artists, some who are reactionary and some progressive, some a mix of both, and even some who are revolutionary.

[BOZG]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 05:59 am
seriously.

the large majority of these ghetto kids aspiring to be a rapper. want what 50 Cent has..and rappers are now brand names. they are entrepreneurs and they love capitalism. It it weren't for capitalism. there would be no hip-hop.

well.. we know of the underground hip hop and political hip hop..

but im talking of main stream hip-hop. what most of the people love.
But that applies to a huge number of genres. Most young people aspire to live the lives of the bands and artists that they like. Hip-Hop just tends to accentuate that idea because of the contrast between the poverty it grew out of and the money that's involved in it now.

As SoS said, hip-hop has been co-opted by capitalism, like punk before it, like blues before that etc. It is no different to the genres that existed before it except in the scale and speed at which it was manipulated by capitalism.

Considering that hip-hop was created, developed and moulded for decades before even the first "commercial" rap release came out, I'm not really sure how you plan on explaining that there would be no hip-hop except for capitalism?

[Arkham Asylum]

The music and entertainment business period is the mouth piece of capitalism.

[Edgar]

While it is true that capitalism has co-opted all the music genres, I think the modern "bling-bling" incarnation of hip-hop is unique in the extreme way that the lyrics and the artists themselves glorify and celebrate capitalism and individual enrichment.

As far as underground and socially conscious rap goes, I haven't noticed anything truly outstanding. Immortal Technique is an intelligent and skilled artist, but his political outlook has some serious flaws and he tends to drift towards things like conspiracism.

[Pirate Utopian]

Hip-hop came from mixing funk and soul records in the ghetto's of the Bronx while the capitalists we're boogying with discomusic.
Since '73/'74 till '79 hip-hop was left unnoticed and grew only creative minds of people in New York.

Capitalism did nothing to help "spark" hip-hop only untill it had a hit with Rapper's Delight and money could be made from it.

[dannthraxxx]

I'd agree with what he's saying.


The entire entertainment industry is capitalistic. But most people dont perform about owning companies, making money, buying *****es, and new cars.

[Rawthentic]

What sort of industry under capitalism isn't capitalistic?

[Ol' Dirty]

seriously.

the large majority of these ghetto kids aspiring to be a rapper. want what 50 Cent has..and rappers are now brand names. they are entrepreneurs and they love capitalism. It it weren't for capitalism. there would be no hip-hop.

well.. we know of the underground hip hop and political hip hop..

but im talking of main stream hip-hop. what most of the people love.

Not all hip-hop is capitalistic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Coup

I agree that a lot of hip-hop is driven by money and power, but you might not want to advertise something as untrue as "Hip Hop is CAPITALISM". Hip hop has some big roots in working-middle class music.

[Intifada]

"Hip Hop is CAPITALISM"

And the award for the most ignorant statement about Hip Hop I have ever read goes to...

[Vanguard1917]

You might as well say all music is capitalism, since all mainstream shit is used to generate profits.

For some reason you chose to shit on hip-hop.

I don't know about RPAS, but a lot of people (particularly white middle class people in the West) are very uncomfortable with the spectre of working class black people having too much money in case they spend it on all the wrong things. It's a classic case of old-money disdain for the nouveau riche. They prefer their black people impoverished, humble and wretched (i.e. "authentic"), not out there celebrating material wealth (in however a distorted way). Notice how African culture is presented (and often romanticised) in the West as being little more than tribal backwardness and poverty.

[Avtomat_Icaro]

Hmm, I would assume that the celebration of material wealth, glorification of crime, abuse of women, indoctrination into consumption of goods one does not need arent those things we as leftists would be proud of right?

I dont want to see African American people poor and suffering, but does this mean its ok that see a new elite group form who swim in golden swimming pools, treat women as inferior, glorify murder and drugtrade while at the same time the majority of that ethnic group remains poor? I wouldnt call the celebration of material wealth sometihng which has to define the cultural idendity of the African American.

[Dr Mindbender]

2 words - Public Enemy

Oh yeah, a lot of Rage against the machine's stuff is rap/hip hop inspired. Personally, I feel if you want to attack any genre of music for being 'capitalist' you should divert your attention elsewhere like chart pop, commercial dance, happy hardcore (if youre familiar with the European scene) and all the rest of that corporate shite which offers neither social commentary nor artistic value.

[Dr Mindbender]

This is the face of capitalist music-
http://www.cs.uni.edu/~wallingf/blog-images/people/simon-cowell.jpg
:angry:

[Rawthentic]

I think that RPAS understands the thing about independent and underground hip-hop, but he is talking about the mainstream music industry.

Let us not blame RPAS, isn't he a music producer?

[Avtomat_Icaro]

Just download everything for free, attack the capitalist oppression of music!

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 12:10 am
Just download everything for free, attack the capitalist oppression of music!
Yep, and get a nasty capitalist virus on your hard disc for the privelege! :lol:

[Avtomat_Icaro]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+June 20, 2007 12:12 am--> (Ulster Socialist @ June 20, 2007 12:12 am)
[email protected] 20, 2007 12:10 am
Just download everything for free, attack the capitalist oppression of music!
Yep, and get a nasty capitalist virus on your hard disc for the privelege! :lol: [/b]
Depends where you download it from I guess :o

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Avtomat_Icaro+June 20, 2007 12:21 am--> (Avtomat_Icaro @ June 20, 2007 12:21 am)
Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 20, 2007 12:12 am

[email protected] 20, 2007 12:10 am
Just download everything for free, attack the capitalist oppression of music!
Yep, and get a nasty capitalist virus on your hard disc for the privelege! :lol:
Depends where you download it from I guess :o [/b]
If you download everything you definitely will get one. Stay the hell away from Limewire! :unsure:

[Avtomat_Icaro]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+June 20, 2007 12:22 am--> (Ulster Socialist @ June 20, 2007 12:22 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 12:21 am

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 20, 2007 12:12 am

[email protected] 20, 2007 12:10 am
Just download everything for free, attack the capitalist oppression of music!
Yep, and get a nasty capitalist virus on your hard disc for the privelege! :lol:
Depends where you download it from I guess :o
If you download everything you definitely will get one. Stay the hell away from Limewire! :unsure: [/b]
Of course, avoid Limewire...personally I use soulseek and so far everything has been ok. Torrents have been ok for me too. :D

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Avtomat_Icaro+June 20, 2007 12:25 am--> (Avtomat_Icaro @ June 20, 2007 12:25 am)
Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 20, 2007 12:22 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 12:21 am

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 20, 2007 12:12 am

[email protected] 20, 2007 12:10 am
Just download everything for free, attack the capitalist oppression of music!
Yep, and get a nasty capitalist virus on your hard disc for the privelege! :lol:
Depends where you download it from I guess :o
If you download everything you definitely will get one. Stay the hell away from Limewire! :unsure:
Of course, avoid Limewire...personally I use soulseek and so far everything has been ok. Torrents have been ok for me too. :D [/b]
hmm yep, and on that note i think this thread is starting to go in a tangent- ;)

[Redmau5]

I think what RPAS was getting at was the fact that no other genre seems to glorify aspects of capitalist society as much as mainstream hip-hop. Although pop music is quite obviously manufactured to make money, most pop songs are usually to do with love and break-ups. Mainstream hip-hop on the other hand, seems to be about making money, buying large houses and cars and sleeping with 'hoes'.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Spirit of [email protected] 19, 2007 07:17 am
Hip-hop has been co-opted by capitalism, perhaps, but then again, there is progressive stuff in hip-hop too.

I mean, 2pac, for instance. Or more recent, Immortal Technique.
i love 2pac.. but come on.. he was pro-capitalist too.. yes he was very socially conscious.. but he was also pro cappie..

[Rawthentic]

I think this is where you go wrong. Tupac never advocated or accepted the private ownership of the means of production. All the things he flows about, the ghetto, cops, poverty, is what very much characterizes gangsta rap. Immortal Technique said this about NWA as well, that it had a revolutionary element to it because it spoke about peoples reality while other "house niggaz" just spit about the fake "ghetto fab" life. All the gangsta rap is missing is the politics.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by Voz de la Gente [email protected] 19, 2007 09:37 pm
I think this is where you go wrong. Tupac never advocated or accepted the private ownership of the means of production. All the things he flows about, the ghetto, cops, poverty, is what very much characterizes gangsta rap. Immortal Technique said this about NWA as well, that it had a revolutionary element to it because it spoke about peoples reality while other "house niggaz" just spit about the fake "ghetto fab" life.

All the gangsta rap is missing is the politics.

But that's a big deal, a huge gap to fill. Bling culture, the over-sexing of the m-v industry (which may or may not be mysogynistic, that's open to debate with me,) "pimp's up, ho's down (ooh, I just got a idea)," all political.

[Rawthentic]

Gangsta rap does denigrate women, but thats what I'm talking about when I say political consciousness, the seed is there, the conditions they flow about.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

I was at a Immortal Technique show on Friday and he made a really good point. Hip-Hop has been commidified by the ruling class because although they hate hip-hop as it is a form of rebellion against the police and the system which locks the masses in barrios and ghettos, they much rather that hip-hop culture is gentrified into rapping about "*****es and hoes" but that's not real hip-hop, real hip-hop is what people like IT rap about, what NWA was about, what any of the early rap was, and so we need to struggle to win it back.


Tupac never advocated or accepted the private ownership of the means of production

yeah Tupac was the shit. but you're not allowed to like Tupac. He wasn't proletariat or something. He became bourgeois or petty bourgeois when he became successful or whatever. You made a fuss about RATM and Tom Morello, live up to your standards! :lol:

[Rawthentic]

Tupac wasnt proletarian? I suppose he wasn't born in one of the shittiest ghettos in the country? Or I suppose his mother wasn't a Black Panther either?

And either way, I don't like rock.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

yeah and once he became a successful rapper he sure wasn't proletarian.

[Rawthentic]

Neither was Bill Gates when he became CEO of Microsoft.

Who came from the ghetto?

[RedHal]

Don't forget who has the buying power, mostly white suburban kids. When hip hop started getting popular, a lot of groups like Public Enemy had a strong political content in their lyrics. As hip hop got more and more popular, a lot of artists got away from the polical stuff and started going the gansta and bling bling route. Naturally this appealed to white suburban kids more than the rapping about black struggles.

[Hiero]

As hip hop got more and more popular, a lot of artists got away from the polical stuff and started going the gansta and bling bling route

I don't see how. The gangsta rap of NWA compared to today's gangsta rap is alot different. I find today's gangsta rap to be more "camp" so it can be easily marketed to a larger audience.

NWA, as people have stated told how ghetto life was. The "hoes" have gonorrhea, the gangstas are small time drug dealers who have a short life span, people are poor, and even Easy E and Ice Cube mention living with their parents. Even artists that weren't considered gangsta, such as Slick Rick "Childrens Story" and Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five's song "The message" depicted similar images.

I think it was later when it came profitable to sell rap records to a wider audience (White people) that they had to tone it down. So they made gangsta rap more camp. It came more optimistic, a gangsta was a smart individual who made money in the ghetto and liberated themselves from poverty. And of course the women are never depicted as have sexual transmitted diseases. This is something different to the pessmistic veiws of earlier rap, including gangsta rap group NWA.

The change in content apart from making it marketable, also probably was changed because the message in earlier rap was directed at the Black community. There are negative connotations to being a gangsta and trying to make money quickly by illegaly and dangerous means. In alot of songs and stories worldwide, when designed for ones own community, there are normaly subtle indications to what is right or wong, morally or otherwise. When rap came profitable to a white audience, there was need to spread these messages.

The only places where there still remains a similar message is in music by Black artist which hope to influence a Black audience. Though a considerable amount of middle class white people seem to be familar with these groups such as Public Enemy, Paris, Dead Prez, Coup, Brand Nubian etc.

[BreadBros]

Hmm, I would assume that the celebration of material wealth, glorification of crime, abuse of women, indoctrination into consumption of goods one does not need arent those things we as leftists would be proud of right?

I don't agree. Certainly I'm against the abuse of women. However, I very much celebrate material wealth. In fact as a leftist I'd like to see that material wealth distributed to everyone more equally. I also consume stuff I don't need on a daily basis (as does most everyone else on this planet) and I think lots of things that are currently illegal in our society shouldn't be and I can understand why people would want to celebrate their getting away with doing them.


I dont want to see African American people poor and suffering, but does this mean its ok that see a new elite group form who swim in golden swimming pools, treat women as inferior, glorify murder and drugtrade while at the same time the majority of that ethnic group remains poor? I wouldnt call the celebration of material wealth sometihng which has to define the cultural idendity of the African American.

Thats fucking stupid on many levels. First of all, you're clearly exaggerating what even the worst rap music is like and (more importantly) ignoring the fact that none of that stuff is new with rap. Popular music has ALWAYS featured people talking about their awesome cars, or how they've got the best fashion, or the hottest girl, or the most money, yet when rap does it its somehow representative of extreme capitalism or the degeneration of our society or something ludicrous (no pun intended) like that. When the Beach Boys sing about their badass V8s no one cares, but some black guy raps about the awesome rims on his car and suddenly people are in an uproar about how decadent rap music is. Frank Sinatra sings about his success and the "Rat Pack" and middle-aged people everywhere love it, some rapper raps about making it in the music business and hanging with his "crew" and suddenly hes a monster who only cares about wealth and decadence. Rock musicians sing about their girlfriends and its cool, some rapper sings about meeting a girl at a club and hes a sex-fiend with no respect for women. :rolleyes: Please. I'm not arguing its racism because more often than not it just seems to be ignorance with people who haven't even listened to rap suddenly offering social commentary on it, but its an absurd double-standard.


I think what RPAS was getting at was the fact that no other genre seems to glorify aspects of capitalist society as much as mainstream hip-hop.

Theres a difference between "glorifying" something and discussing/exposing it. More importantly though, even if individuals are glorifying things we would like to see extinguished from society (the casual sexism pervasive in mainstream rap for example), I would argue that that music is still far more politically valuable than other genres or often even indie/political hip-hop. Very few genres have been as good as mainstream rap at bringing a stark, realistic image of class society from a working-class perspective into mainstream culture, warts and all (whether those "warts" be consciously or unconsciously reflected in the music). Most other music now acts as nothing more than bread and circuses, bourgeois "artistic" distractions lacking in any tangible connection to society. Indie/political hip hop can be good, but all too often it tends to devolve into a cartoonish portrayal of society (i.e. workers as absolute saints, capitalism as some kind of evil with no redeeming features that consciously conspires to destroy people) that are about as politically valuable as the bible or any other good vs evil/black vs white fable. Obviously I'm not defending all mainstream rap, just trying to offer my 2cents and dispel what I see as problems with what people have said here. For the record I think 50 Cent sucks ass, I hate most of the cheesy wannabe-thug R&B shit (like R Kelley), but still, when it comes to social analysis I'd MUCH rather take Mobb Deep's "The Infamous" or Nas's "Illmatic" over anything The Coup has made.

[Intifada]

BreadBros hit the nail on the fucking head.

[Honggweilo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 11:09 am
BreadBros hit the nail on the fucking head.
Seconed :)

I'll rather have DMX's Who we be as social commentary then great political insight by Immortal Technique with Illuminati bullshit being propagated through it

[Pirate Utopian]

Thirded, except for the Mobb Deep part, Mobb Deep's The Infamous is okay but it doesnt beat any album by The Coup IMO.
Ice Cube would be a better one.

[Avtomat_Icaro]

Hmm...fourthed :blush:

[Vanguard1917]

For the record I think 50 Cent sucks ass, I hate most of the cheesy wannabe-thug R&B shit

I do too. But, in terms of slogans, 'get rich or die trying' is far better than the 'be-happy-with-what-you-have' 'anti-consumerist' message that is offered to working class people by today's so-called 'socially conscious' middle classes.

Like i said above, however distorted and contradictory it may be, mainstream hip hop's celebration of material wealth is preferable to the tribal poverty and backwardness that is celebrated as 'black culture' by some so-called radicals in Western society.

[Rawthentic]

Yeah, I agree with ddxt301. Minus the illuminati crap, I like Immortal Technique.

[Vanguard1917]

Immortal Technique has a couple of good songs. But i've always said that he's a pretty mediocre rapper.

Just expanding on this previous point: why is it that white society feels so uncomfortable with this so-called 'materialism' in mainstream hip hop, while they at the same time champion more so-called 'authentic' expressions of 'black culture' that are based around poverty and backwardness - like African tribal art, music and dance, for example?

Why is it that these white people feel more comfortable with black people portrayed as humble tribesmen and women (living in huts, dressed in tribal clothing, etc.) than black people portrayed as living in big houses, driving big cars, etc.? Why is the former portrayal said to be 'authentic' and 'real' while the latter is 'perverse' and 'corrupt'?

A lot of valid criticisms can be made about the rap industry. But underlying a lot of this hostility towards mainstream hip hop is an extremely patronising and snobby attitude towards black people.

[Pirate Utopian]

What about the fact that the lyrics are rather simple the songs cliche and the music is just shit?

[Avtomat_Icaro]

Why is it that these white people feel more comfortable with black people portrayed as humble tribesmen and women (living in huts, dressed in tribal clothing, etc.) than black people portrayed as living in big houses, driving big cars, etc.? Why is the former portrayal said to be 'authentic' and 'real' while the latter is 'perverse' and 'corrupt'?

So wait...when white people live the decadent bourgeois lifestyle we want them removed...if black people do so its "hey at least they are not portrayed as the noble savage". At least thats the impression Im getting from that argument.


Just expanding on this previous point: why is it that white society feels so uncomfortable with this so-called 'materialism' in mainstream hip hop, while they at the same time champion more so-called 'authentic' expressions of 'black culture' that are based around poverty and backwardness - like African tribal art, music and dance, for example?

I have the same problem with glam rock, probably the reason why Im having a hard time with bands such as Motley Crue. For some reason however though people assume that "black culture" (hmm culture based on the colour of skin already sounds like sometihng that doesnt make sense to me, but ok) can only be either celebration of wealth and decadence or the noble savage who has not been enlightened by the white man's burden... Its like saying that white people could only express themselves as either cavemen or decadent cruel figures who have orgies in bathtubs of gold filled with expensive champagne...


I do too. But, in terms of slogans, 'get rich or die trying' is far better than the 'be-happy-with-what-you-have' 'anti-consumerist' message that is offered to working class people by today's so-called 'socially conscious' middle classes.

Maybe another more revolutionary message is needed...

[Edgar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 08:43 pm
why is it that white society feels so uncomfortable with this so-called 'materialism' in mainstream hip hop
They don't; "white society" is the biggest market for commercial hip-hop, and the middle-class suburban kids who buy those albums eat up the pro-capitalist message without so much as a burp of indigestion.

[Morello]

Mainstream Hip-Hop such as 50 Cent are one of the biggest contributers to Capitalism, because Mainstream Hip-Hop is the most widely listened to type of music in most countries, specifically the USA. But Sun Rise Above, Dead Prez, 7 Wounds, Public Enemy, are non-capitalist hip-hop simply because they got their music by word of mouth instead of commercial publication. All the Rap Artists I just named support Leftist thought as well, so don't call all of hip-hop a Capitalist genre of music, because it isn't.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Mark [email protected] 22, 2007 12:12 am
Mainstream Hip-Hop such as 50 Cent are one of the biggest contributers to Capitalism, because Mainstream Hip-Hop is the most widely listened to type of music in most countries, specifically the USA. But Sun Rise Above, Dead Prez, 7 Wounds, Public Enemy, are non-capitalist hip-hop simply because they got their music by word of mouth instead of commercial publication. All the Rap Artists I just named support Leftist thought as well, so don't call all of hip-hop a Capitalist genre of music, because it isn't.
Any musical artist who sells their albums via record companies is a capitalist, regardless of their musical content.

[Morello]

Any musical artist who sells their albums via record companies is a capitalist, regardless of their musical content.[/QUOTE]




That is true, I didn't name the appropriate artists. But at the same time there is many hip-hop artists that DIY their albums and as long as they make Hip-Hop music without capitalism the genre of Hip-Hop is not entirely Capitalist. As long as one artist doesn't use the system, Non-Capitalism still exists in that genre.

[Armand Iskra]

From a RotGoth's idea:

Despite being a man who listened Punk and Goth, as well as Revolutionary Music; I also had Hiphop friends, but I look at them kinda too lumpen despite dealing with it. I treated them with respect despite of different cultures, likely to be educated, organized and join in the socialist path.

Upon looking at them, and talking with them, the Capitalist control of Hiphop culture does not mean Hiphop is Capitalism, but calling Lumpen-Capitalism is better, since they are grown from Lumpenproletarian squatter-ghetto roots and then imbued with capitalist attitude that makes that culture liable to be called as "suck" or "disagreeable" due to its orientation, of propagating lumpenproletarian life and not of fighting against it.

Old school hiphop reminds of fighting against poverty and a call for change, while capitalist-controlled hiphop simply reminds of lumpenproletarian life and living with it. The worst is those who are propagating arrogance, or who are arrogant, that makes conflicts within cultures continuous. Making the culture losing its working-class character.

[RedAnarchist]

Stop necroing threads, AI.