The lack of ardent support for Capitalism

[Ol' Dirty]

I went to a big Capitalist forum, and I saw that there are a total of 2448 registered members in their "ranks," or whatever you want to call it. There are, what, 10,000+ members on revleft; why the difference in numbers? Is it just the grandiose populist rhetoric that draws around ten thousand people to this board, or are people just more interested in an alternative 'cause they're dissinterested/-franchized/-inherrited with the current going's-on in the first world? Why isn't there a lot of extreneous popular support for capitalism?

Also, why are there so seemingly few pro-(economimcly speaking) liberal rallies going on in my area? Do people just not care, or does capitalism not need to defended bacause it is so ubercool, or what?

[Clarksist]

I think that it is hard to get people to be really energized and to organize for the building of the status-quo.

[Demogorgon]

Most people who reaaly love capitalism, as opposed to just accepting it, are teenagers who have been excited by reading books like The Fountainhead and don't really understand how it works yet. They are the sorts that will frequent capitalist forums.

The majority of people who support capitalism are just people who accept it in a more apathetic way, believing it is here to stay and they might as well make the most of it. THat sort of person isn't going to make silly posts on the internet about how wonderful the system is.

[Tower of Bebel]

And Stormfront? But you could say it's full of people over there who hate "capitalism" and "liberalism" (though they wont end capatalism when they have the chance to be in power).

[Sir Aunty Christ]

I think I'm right in saying that far fewer than RevLeft's 10,000+ registered members are actually active posters. It's activity that counts, even on the internet. Clarksist is right when he says that it's easy to get people (young people at any rate) excited about the prospect of changing things rather than maintaining the status quo. I'd be surprised, however, if the majority of 14 year olds maintains their motivation past the first flurry of excitement.

Or maybe I'm being pessimistic.

[pusher robot]

The reason you don't find many ardent supporters of capitalism is because capitalism has so thoroughly "won" the war of ideas in the minds of most people that it is a waste of time and effort to maintain a pointless show of strength.

It's the same reason you won't find many "ardent supporters" of the base-10 numbering system or the heliocentric solar system. It's something perceived to be "common knowledge," so there's no need to waste time being all "ardent" about it.

[Publius]

The reason you don't find many ardent supporters of capitalism is because capitalism has so thoroughly "won" the war of ideas in the minds of most people that it is a waste of time and effort to maintain a pointless show of strength.

It's the same reason you won't find many "ardent supporters" of the base-10 numbering system or the heliocentric solar system. It's something perceived to be "common knowledge," so there's no need to waste time being all "ardent" about it.

I don't think 'most people' have given any of this a second thought. Most people don't know enough about capitalism to come to any meaningful realization about it, though I would say most people dislike it, or at least dislike working long hours for little pay.

Most people don't know anything base base-10 or the planets, certainly not enough to critique either.

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 18, 2007 05:18 pm
The reason you don't find many ardent supporters of capitalism is because capitalism has so thoroughly "won" the war of ideas in the minds of most people that it is a waste of time and effort to maintain a pointless show of strength.

It's the same reason you won't find many "ardent supporters" of the base-10 numbering system or the heliocentric solar system. It's something perceived to be "common knowledge," so there's no need to waste time being all "ardent" about it.
I think it's because you live in a society in which you don't need to understand any of it and still you can live properly. People who want to change the world will seek others and will seek for more info.

[red team]

But, there is always that nagging doubt that something is wrong in a system which you see reward individuals who are incompetent and made no or little contributions, but are many thousands times wealthier as compared to people working for them who are often many times more competent and made contributions that somehow are less rewarded than those of the rich.

There is always that nagging doubt that the rich is simply holding on to a leash of which the other end of it is..... :unsure:

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 05:24 pm


The reason you don't find many ardent supporters of capitalism is because capitalism has so thoroughly "won" the war of ideas in the minds of most people that it is a waste of time and effort to maintain a pointless show of strength.

It's the same reason you won't find many "ardent supporters" of the base-10 numbering system or the heliocentric solar system. It's something perceived to be "common knowledge," so there's no need to waste time being all "ardent" about it.

I don't think 'most people' have given any of this a second thought. Most people don't know enough about capitalism to come to any meaningful realization about it, though I would say most people dislike it, or at least dislike working long hours for little pay.

Most people don't know anything base base-10 or the planets, certainly not enough to critique either.
Yes, of course. That is the case with most "common knowledge" - even "knowledge" that is in fact wrong. But the perception is what matters. So long as no significant attack is mounted on the common knowledge - or, if you prefer, "accepted wisdom," no need will be perceived to advocate it. The frank reality is that there is not currently any perceived credible attack on capitalist society, except maybe from Islamic fundamentalists. Certainly not from revolutionary leftists.

[Janus]

why the difference in numbers?
The thing is that both the numbers you gave were not accurate representations of capitalist and revolutionary leftist activity on the Internet. There aren't many capitalist forums out there but there are a lot of forums (whether politics, religion, history, or what have you) in which the majority of the members are capitalists or at least support the current status-quo. As for the 10,000 registered members, it's pretty clear that that figure definitely isn't representative of our actual active membership.

[luxemburg89]

The reason you don't find many ardent supporters of capitalism is because capitalism has so thoroughly "won" the war of ideas in the minds of most people that it is a waste of time and effort to maintain a pointless show of strength.

It's the same reason you won't find many "ardent supporters" of the base-10 numbering system or the heliocentric solar system. It's something perceived to be "common knowledge," so there's no need to waste time being all "ardent" about it.


It has not won the war of ideas - that also implies a sense of an ending to the war, and you would idiotic to think that...oh yeah, you are :D - anyway, you believe capitalism works and is all good and everyone benefits because you are TOLD it is all good. Well pal it isn't. Look at Africa, look what your system does there. Look at any working factory, look at the workers slaving for hours while the managers sit around counting their cash and sacking people. The reason you think it has won, and that it works, is because you have been told it has won and that it works. It doesn't.

The reason there are no ardent supporters is because it is an ideology of no spirit, no soul and no good art. The bourgeoisie creates only that which will seek to destroy it.

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 09:13 pm

The reason you don't find many ardent supporters of capitalism is because capitalism has so thoroughly "won" the war of ideas in the minds of most people that it is a waste of time and effort to maintain a pointless show of strength.

It's the same reason you won't find many "ardent supporters" of the base-10 numbering system or the heliocentric solar system. It's something perceived to be "common knowledge," so there's no need to waste time being all "ardent" about it.


It has not won the war of ideas - that also implies a sense of an ending to the war, and you would idiotic to think that...oh yeah, you are :D - anyway, you believe capitalism works and is all good and everyone benefits because you are TOLD it is all good. Well pal it isn't. Look at Africa, look what your system does there. Look at any working factory, look at the workers slaving for hours while the managers sit around counting their cash and sacking people. The reason you think it has won, and that it works, is because you have been told it has won and that it works. It doesn't.

The reason there are no ardent supporters is because it is an ideology of no spirit, no soul and no good art. The bourgeoisie creates only that which will seek to destroy it.
Please read what I actually write and not what you think I am saying.

I specifically said:

capitalism has so thoroughly "won" the war of ideas in the minds of most people
meaning that your objection about whether it has actually "won the war of ideas" is irrelevant, and in fact your whole point about me believing so because I have been told so actually proves my very point, which, to restate, was that there is not much fervent support of capitalism because people perceive it to be the dominant, correct ideology and it is not currently under significant attack.

[luxemburg89]

meaning that your objection about whether it has actually "won the war of ideas" is irrelevant, and in fact your whole point about me believing so because I have been told so actually proves my very point, which, to restate, was that there is not much fervent support of capitalism because people perceive it to be the dominant, correct ideology and it is not currently under significant attack.


No it isn't irrelevant you idiot. I am pointing out that it has won nothing in the minds of people simply because the war is not over. Perhaps it is WINNING but it has not WON.

[Redmau5]

because people perceive it to be the dominant, correct ideology

People do not perceive it to be the correct 'ideology', they perceive it to be the only ideology.

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 01:31 am

because people perceive it to be the dominant, correct ideology

People do not perceive it to be the correct 'ideology', they perceive it to be the only ideology.
Even the most clueless Americans have heard of "communists" and know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties.

[red team]

Originally posted by pusher robot+June 19, 2007 03:53 am--> (pusher robot @ June 19, 2007 03:53 am)
[email protected] 19, 2007 01:31 am

because people perceive it to be the dominant, correct ideology

People do not perceive it to be the correct 'ideology', they perceive it to be the only ideology.
Even the most clueless Americans have heard of "communists" and know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties. [/b]
Facts are a very malleable things for those who believe they can change reality so that people believe in everything that they are told. This is especially true for a ruling class that doesn't hold much value to empirical truths which means truth could mean whatever they want it to mean. For a christian fundamentalist, prayer can cure diseases and the universe began 6000 years ago when God created it. Herectics with inconvenient empirical evidence can be silenced so as to not disturb the reality that was created.

In this case for the herectics that deny that Capitalism is the best and only system, any number of murders and atrocities can be made up to make any alternative to the status quo as unredeemable evil. And this strategy of pure fabrication inevitably works too for those who have no objections to using it or believing in it. 5,000,000 people murdered under Stalin, why not make it 10,000,000? Why stop at 10,000,000? why not make it 30,000,000 or 100,000,000? 200,000,000? Why not make half a billion? Why not since any differing ideology from that of the present one is evil incarnate an invention of the supreme evil being. The opposite of all that is "good". Any methods including lying to denounce this pure evil justifies itself as the end of actually having this pure evil propose an alternative is the worst thing that can happen to the world. Not even nuclear annihilation and slow radioactive death would be as bad. Remember, alternative proposals to the present system is pure evil that we're talking about.

It seems that the present Capitalist ruling class learned their lessons well from their papal predecessors so much so that television religion has become big business.

Well, how about half a billion. 500,000,000. It seems like a nice round number of murders for pure evil doesn't it?

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by red team+June 19, 2007 05:01 am--> (red team @ June 19, 2007 05:01 am)
Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 19, 2007 03:53 am

[email protected] 19, 2007 01:31 am

because people perceive it to be the dominant, correct ideology

People do not perceive it to be the correct 'ideology', they perceive it to be the only ideology.
Even the most clueless Americans have heard of "communists" and know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties.
Facts are a very malleable things for those who believe they can change reality so that people believe in everything that they are told. This is especially true for a ruling class that doesn't hold much value to empirical truths which means truth could mean whatever they want it to mean. For a christian fundamentalist, prayer can cure diseases and the universe began 6000 years ago when God created it. Herectics with inconvenient empirical evidence can be silenced so as to not disturb the reality that was created.

In this case for the herectics that deny that Capitalism is the best and only system, any number of murders and atrocities can be made up to make any alternative to the status quo as unredeemable evil. And this strategy of pure fabrication inevitably works too for those who have no objections to using it or believing in it. 5,000,000 people murdered under Stalin, why not make it 10,000,000? Why stop at 10,000,000? why not make it 30,000,000 or 100,000,000? 200,000,000? Why not make half a billion? Why not since any differing ideology from that of the present one is evil incarnate an invention of the supreme evil being. The opposite of all that is "good". Any methods including lying to denounce this pure evil justifies itself as the end of actually having this pure evil propose an alternative is the worst thing that can happen to the world. Not even nuclear annihilation and slow radioactive death would be as bad. Remember, alternative proposals to the present system is pure evil that we're talking about.

It seems that the present Capitalist ruling class learned their lessons well from their papal predecessors so much so that television religion has become big business.

Well, how about half a billion. 500,000,000. It seems like a nice round number of murders for pure evil doesn't it? [/b]
Was this rant in response to me? I'm afraid I don't catch your point.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by pusher robot+June 19, 2007 03:53 am--> (pusher robot @ June 19, 2007 03:53 am)
[email protected] 19, 2007 01:31 am

because people perceive it to be the dominant, correct ideology

People do not perceive it to be the correct 'ideology', they perceive it to be the only ideology.
Even the most clueless Americans have heard of "communists" and know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties. [/b]
I don't think they regard it as being in opposition to capitalism, rather they perceive it as being in opposition to "freedom".

Many of the most ardent anti-Communists I have encountered didn't know that there was little to no free enterprise int he Soviet Union for example.

[luxemburg89]

Even the most clueless Americans have heard of "communists" and know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties.

That statement could almost be part of your autobiography. Once again you show your ignorance, and your Capitalist American indoctrinated attitude (the two go hand in hand). You have just regurgitated that which was vomited down your throat from a young age. However what you are presenting there is not knowledge, as you suggest, but fear; a deep fear that the capitalist greed of America will be killed by the full force of the world's contempt for you. That is, the oppressed will kill the nature of the oppressors. And that the vehicle of the world's hate will be Communist revolution. Communism, to Capitalist Americans, is everything they want it to be. It is your scapegoat, it is an evil, it is Iran, it is Iraq, it is Afghanistan, it is unholy, it is anti-religious, it is Islam, it is Jewish, it is oppressive, it is Stalin, it is chaos and it is demonic. Yet it is none of these things. True Communism is that which America fears above all else, above all the WASP American fears stated above. It is the liberating force that will release, and destroy, the imperial grip with which the USA and her allies hold to ransom those who work for the benefit of the 'land of the free', yet experience no benefit or freedom. It is the freedom, and power, of the workers of the world.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 09:13 pm

The reason you don't find many ardent supporters of capitalism is because capitalism has so thoroughly "won" the war of ideas in the minds of most people that it is a waste of time and effort to maintain a pointless show of strength.

It's the same reason you won't find many "ardent supporters" of the base-10 numbering system or the heliocentric solar system. It's something perceived to be "common knowledge," so there's no need to waste time being all "ardent" about it.


It has not won the war of ideas - that also implies a sense of an ending to the war, and you would idiotic to think that...oh yeah, you are :D - anyway, you believe capitalism works and is all good and everyone benefits because you are TOLD it is all good. Well pal it isn't. Look at Africa, look what your system does there. Look at any working factory, look at the workers slaving for hours while the managers sit around counting their cash and sacking people. The reason you think it has won, and that it works, is because you have been told it has won and that it works. It doesn't.

The reason there are no ardent supporters is because it is an ideology of no spirit, no soul and no good art. The bourgeoisie creates only that which will seek to destroy it.

Please read what I actually write and not what you think I am saying.

I specifically said:

capitalism has so thoroughly "won" the war of ideas in the minds of most people
meaning that your objection about whether it has actually "won the war of ideas" is irrelevant, and in fact your whole point about me believing so because I have been told so actually proves my very point, which, to restate, was that there is not much fervent support of capitalism because people perceive it to be the dominant, correct ideology and it is not currently under significant attack.

pusher robot made a good point. I think that Luxembourg doesn't percieve the capitalist mentality to be totaly dominant, which is fine. Still, Luxembourg, I dissent from your "It has not won the war of ideas - that also implies a sense of an ending to the war, and you would idiotic to think that..." comment. I think that the liberal mindset has either won over a vast majority of politicaly active people, or has desseminated to the masses so much that many people don't really ponder the fact that they live in a capitalistic society.



because people perceive it to be the dominant, correct ideology


People do not perceive it to be the correct 'ideology', they perceive it to be the only ideology.

I agree with that. As i said, a sizable people don't think of capitalism as a choice, so much as a fact of life -or something along those lines.- Also, don't call pusher robot an idiot -or say that he is idiotic, or whatever the word may be.- He has addressed a valid point, and I think he should get a scooby snack.

Ruh-Row!

[Edit]: fixed quotes....

Again. :rolleyes:

[luxemburg89]

.- Also, don't call pusher robot an idiot -or say that he is idiotic, or whatever the word may be.- He has addressed a valid point, and I think he should get a scooby snack.


I don't buy into this liberal appreciation of reactionary opinions. pusher robot has demonstrated enough times that he is pretencious and arrogant, his last post clearly demonstrates that he throws his lot in with the reactionary bourgeoisie. For further clarity on his position see the thread on nationalised health, where he showed he thinks that private healthcare is beneficial for all and the NHS (of which he knows nothing about) enslaves doctors, to an extent. I am fully justified in calling this reactionary scum idiotic.

[Ol' Dirty]

.- Also, don't call pusher robot an idiot -or say that he is idiotic, or whatever the word may be.- He has addressed a valid point, and I think he should get a scooby snack.



I don't buy into this liberal appreciation of reactionary opinions. pusher robot has demonstrated enough times that he is pretencious and arrogant, his last post clearly demonstrates that he throws his lot in with the reactionary bourgeoisie. For further clarity on his position see the thread on nationalised health, where he showed he thinks that private healthcare is beneficial for all and the NHS (of which he knows nothing about) enslaves doctors, to an extent. I am fully justified in calling this reactionary scum idiotic.

I'm not going to get into a funk about this, but wouldn't it be good to have someone to criticize you in case you -:o heaven forbid- have a just plain bad idea? :huh:

Cliche, I know, but: "Insult is the lowest form of argument."

[luxemburg89]

Even the most clueless Americans have heard of "communists" and know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 18, 2007 05:18 pm
The reason you don't find many ardent supporters of capitalism is because capitalism has so thoroughly "won" the war of ideas in the minds of most people that it is a waste of time and effort to maintain a pointless show of strength.

It's the same reason you won't find many "ardent supporters" of the base-10 numbering system or the heliocentric solar system. It's something perceived to be "common knowledge," so there's no need to waste time being all "ardent" about it.
Its precisely that brand of complacency that will (hopefully in my opinion) kill capitalism. Socialist ideas will never die because where the beourgiouse attacks the living standards of the working man, he will organise and respond in kind.

The reactionaries dont need to organise because the ruling class have control the economy, therefore they already control the military, the police, the workplaces and places of learning. There is no political onus on them to organise or to even morally justify themselves.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 11:45 am

Even the most clueless Americans have heard of "communists" and know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties
pusher wrote that? Was he serious? I think he was writing it from the impression most people. If he wasn't...

Vomit up that scooby snack, damn it! :lol:

[luxemburg89]

LovelyShadeOfRed: He will try and get out of it by saying that he WAS only speaking from other people's point of view. However I would urge you to look at his use of 'know' rather than 'think'. That implies he supports that view, rather he states that IS the correct view as they 'know' it rather than 'think' it. If that makes sense. Leave the scooby snack, he can choke on it.

[Dr Mindbender]

Regarding pushers ignorant gambit about The USSR almost invading the USA, the establishment of soviet bases in Cuba was a response to the establishment of NATO missile sites in Turkey, west Germany and Japan. The soviets had a lot more to fear from the USA than the USA did of the soviets. So get your history right, chump.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 11:56 am
LovelyShadeOfRed: He will try and get out of it by saying that he WAS only speaking from other people's point of view. However I would urge you to look at his use of 'know' rather than 'think'. That implies he supports that view, rather he states that IS the correct view as they 'know' it rather than 'think' it. If that makes sense. Leave the scooby snack, he can choke on it.


Then I'm sorry I suppported him then. I still think he makes a valid point, but I disagree with the eeeeeevil thing.

(/Lovely rips out pusher's stomach in a bloody mess and picks out the scooby

Me likes me scooby.)

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 04:45 pm

Even the most clueless Americans have heard of "communists" and know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties
Lux, for science's sake, how you can miss my point so horribly?

Let me spell it out for you using short, simple words:

"Even the most clueless Americans have heard of 'communists' and know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties" is my description of the "common knowledge" that most people "know" (my scare quotes should indicate my skepticism as to the accuracy of these terms!) I am not saying whether that statement is substantively right or wrong; that's irrelevant - though I made the statement deliberately silly enough that I thought my sarcasm would show through.

My point is that people are aware of the existence of communism, and believe that it has been squarely defeated. That is why they aren't pounding the boards to promote capitalism. Whether that belief is in fact right or wrong is irrelevant to my point!

I think most people understood my point who weren't deliberately trying to misunderstand.

[Ol' Dirty]

(luxemburg89 @ June 19, 2007 04:45 pm)

Even the most clueless Americans have heard of "communists" and know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties

Lux, for science's sake, how you can miss my point so horribly?

Let me spell it out for you using short, simple words:


"Even the most clueless Americans have heard of 'communists' and know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties"

is my description of the "common knowledge" that most people "know" (my scare quotes should indicate my skepticism as to the accuracy of these terms!) I am not saying whether that statement is substantively right or wrong; that's irrelevant - though I made the statement deliberately silly enough that I thought my sarcasm would show through.

My point is that people are aware of the existence of communism, and believe that it has been squarely defeated. That is why they aren't pounding the boards to promote capitalism. Whether that belief is in fact right or wrong is irrelevant to my point!

I think most people understood my point who weren't deliberately trying to misunderstand.

Please. Your statement was ambiguous. If you were being sarchastic, you shure did a moot job of it.

If you are being genuine, I apoligize, but this whole thing seems very odd to me.

[luxemburg89]

Even the most clueless Americans have heard of 'communists' and know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties

Oh I see. Well I'm sorry I missed the sarcasm, your word choice, which is that of the typical soulless Capitalist, threw me off the trail. I obviously mistook those for your own views...hang on. Well now we're back on track we can address some more important issues than pusher robot, who is also irrelevant.

Capitalism is itself based upon the success of the individual. Big business, itself, will have someone who benefits more than everyone else in the company, no matter how senior, for no reason other than the fact they got lucky. The reason there is no collective support for Capitalism is because Capitalists are too caught up in themselves to care about their 'movement'* as a whole.


*NB: The use of 'movement' is perhaps incorrect as Capitalism is the current system, and is certainly not moving forward, 'static' may be a better choice :D

[Dr Mindbender]

The context of words you use suggest it is your sentiment though you said ''they know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties'' as if to say that the insinuation that communists are evil is a true one.

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 19, 2007 06:15 pm
The context of words you use suggest it is your sentiment though you said ''they know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties'' as if to say that the insinuation that communists are evil is a true one.
Okay, I guess I see where the confusion is coming from. I thought that the very concept of "knowing" something "vaguely" is an oxymoron. You either know something or you don't. If you only know something "vaguely," that is to say you don't know it at all.

I will try to make my sarcasm more ridiculous in the future.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by pusher robot+June 19, 2007 01:45 pm--> (pusher robot @ June 19, 2007 01:45 pm)
Ulster [email protected] 19, 2007 06:15 pm
The context of words you use suggest it is your sentiment though you said ''they know vaguely that they are evil people who almost invaded America in the sixties'' as if to say that the insinuation that communists are evil is a true one.
Okay, I guess I see where the confusion is coming from. I thought that the very concept of "knowing" something "vaguely" is an oxymoron. You either know something or you don't. If you only know something "vaguely," that is to say you don't know it at all.

I will try to make my sarcasm more ridiculous in the future. [/b]
You will.

[luxemburg89]

That is not what you were implying, and here you are trying to worm your way out of a situation. You meant they 'know vaguely' as in the sense they have the minimal necessary knowledge on the subject. You are a liar.

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 06:49 pm
That is not what you were implying, and here you are trying to worm your way out of a situation. You meant they 'know vaguely' as in the sense they have the minimal necessary knowledge on the subject. You are a liar.
You claim to have the telpathic, time-travelling ability to read my mind in the past and know what my intentions really were.

What does that make you?

[Axel1917]

You can't really judge things by the size of various internet forums, but the fact does remain that more and more people are starting to question the world they live in. Ten years ago, not so many did this. Even the common anti-Bush sentiment has an anti-capitalist kernel to it. The bourgeois ideology is still floating around, and that is why people are blaming individuals for the problems that are actually caused by capitalism, but Lenin was fond of quoting the proverb, "Life teaches." And life indeed will teach. It continues to do as such.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by pusher robot+June 19, 2007 05:01 pm--> (pusher robot @ June 19, 2007 05:01 pm)
[email protected] 19, 2007 06:49 pm
That is not what you were implying, and here you are trying to worm your way out of a situation. You meant they 'know vaguely' as in the sense they have the minimal necessary knowledge on the subject. You are a liar.
You claim to have the telpathic, time-travelling ability to read my mind in the past and know what my intentions really were.

What does that make you? [/b]
Amazing. Now pork off please. :)

[luxemburg89]

You claim to have the telpathic, time-travelling ability to read my mind in the past and know what my intentions really were.

What does that make you?

Oh so you don't have the same thoughts now? :P
I'm sorry pusher robot but your intentions are certainly not pure here. I mean for what reason have you joined this site other than out of the sheer arrogance that you believe yourself to be correct. You would do well to remember that this OI forum is a luxury and does not have to be provided. This site is called RevLeft, it is, therefore, for revolutionary leftists, not capitalists. You are no revolutionary leftist and certainly did not join the site as one. In truth you joined the site to feed your ego by telling us how wrong you think we are. So don't think you have the moral highground here. You are simply here to try and make yourself seem better than us. Now what does that make you?

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 11:02 am

You claim to have the telpathic, time-travelling ability to read my mind in the past and know what my intentions really were.

What does that make you?

Oh so you don't have the same thoughts now? :P
I'm sorry pusher robot but your intentions are certainly not pure here. I mean for what reason have you joined this site other than out of the sheer arrogance that you believe yourself to be correct. You would do well to remember that this OI forum is a luxury and does not have to be provided. This site is called RevLeft, it is, therefore, for revolutionary leftists, not capitalists. You are no revolutionary leftist and certainly did not join the site as one. In truth you joined the site to feed your ego by telling us how wrong you think we are. So don't think you have the moral highground here. You are simply here to try and make yourself seem better than us. Now what does that make you?

I mean for what reason have you joined this site other than out of the sheer arrogance that you believe yourself to be correct.

Curiousity. I read some of Apathy Maybe's discussion on a slashdot thread, but I didn't really understand at all what he was proposing. I followed him here to get a clearer idea.

In all my studies of economics and government, I've never really been able to get a good, concrete vision of how a modern noncapitalist society would work. Practical things, like allocation of resources and externalities and free riders and all that stuff. I came in here to see if I could find those answers.

I'm an open-minded, scientific person. I am open to accepting alternatives to capitalism. But I will not do so based on faith.

[Dimentio]

Actually, the only model which I have seen that is a more detailed overview, is the technocratic alternative to capitalism. Michael Albert and others have also formed alternatives based on labor accounting, but those are not as detailed.

[RGacky3]

Obviously Socialists are going to be more active in changing things, people who are most into Capitalism are generally (at least in the states), upper class think-tankers, not very much grassroots support, most of that is simply unaware that there is a real alternative, seeing as to most people (understandibally because that is what they are taught in schools) Communism is a dictatorship where the government controls everything, and Socialism is a european country in which you get taxed A LOT, and Anarchism is where motercycle gangs go around and kill people. So a lot of people don't actually know a whole bunch, but most do not support Capitalism in principle, generally just in name because its tied with 'Freedom.

Infact if you talk about Socialist principles without the name to people, most people agree.

One thing I think is interesting is that in the USSR there were very few, if any (none that I know of), dissident groups who wanted to bring back a class society, or bring in Capitalism.

[Rawthentic]

One thing I think is interesting is that in the USSR there were very few, if any (none that I know of), dissident groups who wanted to bring back a class society, or bring in Capitalism.


In fact, there very many underground and even above ground groups that wanted an end to Stalinism (Myasnikov) and open revolts against such policies, like the Hungarin worker's revolt. They wanted real socialism, not capitalism.

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 02:30 am
One thing I think is interesting is that in the USSR there were very few, if any (none that I know of), dissident groups who wanted to bring back a class society, or bring in Capitalism.
You don't possibly think that the prospect of you and your family being imprisoned, tortured, or killed for doing so might have had something to do with that, do you?

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by RGacky3
One thing I think is interesting is that in the USSR there were very few, if any (none that I know of), dissident groups who wanted to bring back a class society, or bring in Capitalism.
They didnt need to because they already had a (state) capitalist class society. :D

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by pusher robot+June 21, 2007 03:06 pm--> (pusher robot @ June 21, 2007 03:06 pm)
[email protected] 21, 2007 02:30 am
One thing I think is interesting is that in the USSR there were very few, if any (none that I know of), dissident groups who wanted to bring back a class society, or bring in Capitalism.
You don't possibly think that the prospect of you and your family being imprisoned, tortured, or killed for doing so might have had something to do with that, do you? [/b]
That would be a good point if he'd said there was no dissent at all as it is he was simply pointing out that though bad the system in the USSR was preferable to class society, at least according to those who lived there.