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bolshevik1917
21st February 2003, 19:22
Marxism has always waged a struggle against the methods of individual terrorism (hijackings, bombings) as well as against state terrorism (the imperialist bombing of Iraq, Yugoslavia, etc.). Acts of individual terror do little but alienate the mass of the people from the cause you are supposed to be promoting. Bombing a market place where women and children are killed does not make the average working Joe too sympathetic to your cause. Our power and strength are in our numbers, not in individual acts.

While we can all certainly sympathize with people being frustrated by the oppressive conditions they live under, these methods have nothing in common with Marxism, and have historically proven to be impotent at bringing about any serious change. Take for example the terrorist acts of the PLO in Israel/Palestine in the last decades. These bombings and hijacking did nothing for promoting working class unity between Jews and Arabs against their common oppressor – the ruling class which keeps them divided in order to continue to oppress them. The ruling classes in the Middle East do not want real peace, they just want the tension lessened so that they can continue with their business without interruptions. If there were actual "peace" then the workers of all ethnicities and religions would unite against the ruling class. The terrorist methods of the PLO got the Palestinian people nowhere. It was only with the Intifadah (uprising) of the masses of Palestinians that the Israeli ruling class feared the movement and began to give concessions. This is why we need to condemn individual terrorism.

Another example is the current war in Chechnya. The real reason for the war is that the Russian military is sick of being humiliated by the West since the fall of the USSR (10 years ago NATO would NEVER have bombed Russia’s ally Serbia!). They want to make an example of the Chechen people – to show the other peoples of the former republics (especially in the Caucuses and the Caspian Sea region which is rich in oil, gas, etc.) what happens if they mess with Russia. But what was the excuse given for the war? To fight terrorism. There were some bombings of working class apartments allegedly instigated by Chechen terrorists (though it was more probably done by the ruling class itself as an excuse for the war), and this is the excuse used to raze a whole country. Whether the Chechens bombed those apartment buildings or not, the point is that individual terrorism does not promote cultural and ethnic unity, but rather gives the ruling class an excuse for further repression.

In addition, it is not very comforting to think about the heightened border security (another indication of growing isolationism and nationalism in the U.S.) and police/FBI presence due to the supposed "terrorist" plots around the Millenium. It is entirely possible that there are some plots, and we would oppose these acts of terror, but the government is using the hysteria over this possibility to slowly reduce our civil liberties. They are using it as an excuse to perhaps begin a tracking system for all foreign nationals who visit this country! This is scary, and yet the press (which is a mere mouthpiece for the ideas of the ruling class) gives these stories front page billing. If a socialist group were to commit an act of terrorism the ruling class would use that as an excuse to shut down our websites, newspapers, meetings, etc.

I think the following quote from Leon Trotsky from the article "Why Marxists Oppose Individual Terrorism" puts it very eloquently:

"In our eyes, individual terror is inadmissible precisely because it belittles the role of the masses in their own consciousness, reconciles them to their powerlessness, and turns their eyes and hopes towards a great avenger and liberator who some day will come and accomplish his mission. The anarchist prophets of the ‘propaganda of the deed’ can argue all they want about the elevating and stimulating influence of terrorist acts on the masses. Theoretical considerations and political experience prove otherwise. The more ‘effective’ the terrorist acts, the greater their impact, the more they reduce the interest of the masses in self-organisation and self-education. But the smoke from the confusion clears away, the panic disappears, the successor of the murdered minister makes his appearance, life again settles into the old rut, the wheel of capitalist exploitation turns as before; only the police repression grows more savage and brazen. And as a result, in place of the kindled hopes and artificially aroused excitement comes disillusionment and apathy."

www.newyouth.com

CruelVerdad
21st February 2003, 21:03
But you have to realize that if all of us work together for what we want, will take more time. If we do it by the force of terrorism, we will get an inmediate response...

It all depends...

Kez
21st February 2003, 22:05
bolsh is correct.
Look at nazi germany, the polish (or french) jew who shot a nazi did nothing but cause horrific repression with kristalnacht where synagogues were burnt and jews killed.
However, when the French resistence fought (with full backing of french population), this had great support.

Only through the masses can we achieve change

redstar2000
22nd February 2003, 00:35
Marxism is incompatable with terrorism. <yawn>

Yes, we've known that since the days of Marx's opposition to Bakuninist conspiracy theories of revolution.

But let's apply our formula...at least in a "thought experiment". How would this opposition to terrorism work in practice?

You learn in some accidental fashion that someone or some small group is planning to assassinate an odious public figure. Clearly, you don't offer to help (they don't know you and would think you were a cop).

But would you inform the authorities? Or would you just "look the other way"?

Would you alert your close political associates...so they could distance themselves from the forthcoming event?

Would you prepare a special edition of your publication or call a press conference in advance of the event, so that you could show your opposition to terrorism while the issue was "hot"?

What would you actually do?

That's a tough question, isn't it?

:cool:

DisruptiveBehaviour
22nd February 2003, 04:42
Wow redstar2000 you should really ask malte about a "Practice" forum:shocked:

Blibblob
22nd February 2003, 12:43
But it all is terrorism. Ive heard on this site before people talk about how the US is one of the largest forms of terrorism. Ive also heard somebody say that pretty much all who oppose the US are terrorists, all cause they cant get the advanced technology that would make it look like a true act of war.

*rhetoric warning, rhetoric warning*

Show me the Money
24th February 2003, 22:44
marxism

..and furthermore i want to plead for shorter posts in the evenings, please... i'm just to t..,, u...zzzz...zzz..zzzz...(can't lift his fingers from his keyboard... then falls asleep.)

(Edited by Show me the Money at 11:47 pm on Feb. 24, 2003)

Valkyrie
24th February 2003, 23:28
"Yes, we've known that since the days of Marx's opposition to Bakuninist conspiracy theories of revolution."

Propaganda by deed?

Kez
25th February 2003, 19:13
Quote: from Show me the Money on 10:44 pm on Feb. 24, 2003
marxism

..and furthermore i want to plead for shorter posts in the evenings, please... i'm just to t..,, u...zzzz...zzz..zzzz...(can't lift his fingers from his keyboard... then falls asleep.)

(Edited by Show me the Money at 11:47 pm on Feb. 24, 2003)


fuck off then, either learn and be patient, or fuck off and join the SWP

Revolution Hero
28th February 2003, 08:17
Marxism- Leninism is incompatible with individual terror. But in some cases socialist state can support terrorism and even be the initiator of it. For example there were certain NKVD terrorist groups which acted on the territory captured by Nazi Germany; their main objective was to undermine German power by the means of terror.

btw PLO is not terrorist organization…

sc4r
28th February 2003, 12:52
what is terrorism ? I know this is a hackneyed old point but it is still valid.

Any violent act not directed exclusively at the active military forces of an opposing force will be called terrorism by that enemy. Even if it is it will be called terrorism by some.

It should go without saying that if you wish to achieve something you should not commit acts which wil be classed as terrorism by those you wish to ally with.

At some point I suspect that force or at least the threat of force will have to be used to achieve socialist aims. This is because those who currently hold the whip of economic slavery will not readily relinquish it. Those people will declare that any force used is terrorism, because the word is primarily a subjective appeal to emotion not an objective description of acts.

Military forces do not exist in a vacuum. They exist only because civilian populations pay for them and create them. Where this is so it is natural (not nice, but natural) for peoples oppressed by the society to strike out wherever they feel they can most effectively damage that society and this in the case of disadvantaged peoples is rarely the military.

But violence is always the last resort and violence which will not obtain your objectives is mere spite.

My personal definition of true terrorism is violence which is inflicted without regard to whether the people who will be affected by it are in opposition to you, or against people who are prepared to grant you equal legal rights as themselves. This Includes the right to an equal say in defining what those rights are.

Violence carried out in order to obtain recognition is true terrorism. Violence carried out in order to demonstrate to your enemies that there is a cost to their oppression is not .

By this view the attack on the WTC was almost undeniably true terrorism and a great many of the palestinian attacks are also; so are many of the israeli reprisals.


I would love to declare that violence should never be used. I cannot; but I would declare that it should be used with extreme reluctance and very carefully targetted. Our objective unlike the objectives of Facists and pseudo capitalists is not merely to win, but to win while maintaining our honour. This is a more difficult victory to achieve but a far more worhty and lasting one.

The true measure of a revolutionary hero is not her capacity for violence but her capacity for courage.




(Edited by sc4r at 12:55 pm on Feb. 28, 2003)