Help Me, please - i am always at a loss of words

[DementedChild]

Okay, one of my friends and i got into an argument on the whole communisn vs. capitalism thing. My friend is really good at arguing i am not, so can you guys help me out and give some very good "in your face" type of things to say that are pro-communisn. I might seen ignorant but its really that i don't like arguing and most of the time i am at a loss of words. So i would really appreciate your help.


p.s.
where did the red star with a black background originate?

[Arkham]

It might be more helpful to have a baseline understanding of communism, rather than some quick punchout lines that you can use in a debate. Don't get me wrong, the usefulness of talking points is often underestimated, but when you're having a one on one conversation, they're not that helpful. Its like having a chess game where every move you ask someone else what to do next. You're going to keep needing to ask for moves forever.

To be able to formulate cohesive arguments you need at least a basic understanding of the subject matter, and critical thinking. Thats about it.

[ComradeJunichi]

If you can't defend it yourself then obviously it's something you don't believe. Read and study more and build your own belief and argument.

[Kez]

Quote: from Arkham on 5:13 pm on Feb. 20, 2003
It might be more helpful to have a baseline understanding of communism, rather than some quick punchout lines that you can use in a debate. Don't get me wrong, the usefulness of talking points is often underestimated, but when you're having a one on one conversation, they're not that helpful. Its like having a chess game where every move you ask someone else what to do next. You're going to keep needing to ask for moves forever.

To be able to formulate cohesive arguments you need at least a basic understanding of the subject matter, and critical thinking. Thats about it.


i agree 100% as well as with junichis.
You can go only so far with stats, but you need to read the basics
Heres a few
"State and Revolution"
"Imperialism, the highest form of Capitalism"
"communist manifesto"

and for historical books go to http://wellred.marxist.com

Hope this will help
i maded the biggest mistake of m life by not reading early on and only started when i was 16, a year now im just begining to reap the benefits

[redstar2000]

DC, I have to agree with the other comrades. Even if we could "write a script" for you, it wouldn't mean very much...as soon as the argument departed from the script, you'd be on your own again.

There is one way we could help you. When your acquaintence brings up what you think is a particularly devastating point...you can use the search engine at the bottom of each page to search che-lives for threads that discussed that particular point--you will probably find several.

But, sooner or later, you'll have to read at least some of the classic works, e.g., The Communist Manifesto; Value, Price and Profit; Wage Labor and Capital; The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State; etc. These and many more can be found at

http://www.marxists.org

Good luck!

:cool:

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I was going to reply, but there's no point. Everyone has said it. You need to learn about things to argue about them. Your capitalist friend deserves more praise than you because of your ignorance

[redstar2000]

Always ready with an encouraging word, right, Socialsmo o Muerte?

And, of course, always ready with some words of praise for pro-capitalists.

Begone, Troll!

:angry:

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

My friend, even the capitalist deserves praise over the ignorant, so long as he is not ignorant himself

[canikickit]

What a bunch of bullshit. You're not even his friend.

Capitalism itself is ignorant, even if someone has a lot of information and supports capitalism, they have a very basic flaw in their in their line of thinking which does not deserve praise.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

It's better to believe in something through knowing everything about it than it is to believe in something without knowing anything about it. That is just plain ignorance and ignorance cannot be pardoned

[synthesis]

Personally, I'd rather have a youthful leftist willing to learn than a capitalist in sheep's clothing posting all over our board.

[Exploited Class]

My friend, even the capitalist deserves praise over the ignorant, so long as he is not ignorant himself

Yippee then go be friends with Rush Limbaugh. Personally I'll take (dyermaker's) young uninformed leftist anyday. At least he/she has a soul. I most certainly won't congratulate Rush on his information or knowledge and research.

And you know what even if you have all the information and knowledge in the world you can still lose debates with people. Debating is a skill, and there are people on this board that could take almost any subject matter and wipe me out.

Don;t try to studying everything leftist, take what you like the most and study what intrests you the most. You will debate better if you hold a passion for the subject and you are more willing to study it.

Don't worry about debating, it doesn't prove who is right or wrong always, it just proves who is best at debating, who has more information and is better studied on the subject.

With all that said, studing on the subject just as everybody here stated very well already. I'll like ya no matter the amount of info you cram into your head.

[suffianr]

Gobbing off on the finer points of communism is going to get you very far, mate. If you're not confident on your ability to argue with a capitalist, then my best advice to you is to save it. They're not the best listeners around, and tend to always fall back on the old But-the-Soviet-Union-Failed-Anyway bollcks.

And you'll only want to punch the wanker after that. :)

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Quote: from DyerMaker on 3:35 am on Feb. 21, 2003
Personally, I'd rather have a youthful leftist willing to learn than a capitalist in sheep's clothing posting all over our board.



So would I. But what I said was I'd rather a capitalist who knows what he is standing for than a leftist who is IGNORANT. I didnt say anything about not knowing things. Ignorance is different to lack of knowledge

[CruelVerdad]

What´s the point of defeating your friend in a theme that you don´t know?
Socialism, communism is someting that you learn, but above all when you have a deep feeling for those people, your people, that are fighting day after day against oppression, trying to change things as they are...

Just be sincere, tell him that you don´t know shit! But to give you time, so you can read, read,read,read, and after that, you can kick his fucking capitalist ass.

[DementedChild]

The things you said were a bit depressing but i understand why you said those things. I actually do believe that i am still at an ignorant stage in my life, truth is i am only fourteen and barely started getting into the whole communism thing only two months ago! But i honestly do agree with everything i've read abou communism, well about what it is. So i guess the thing is that my friend is way better at debating than i am. So i guess i will have to do as you guys said and read, read, read. But really, honestly, if i were as ignorant as some of you think i am, i would not have gotten into the debate, its just that she's so good at it (and that i didn't know)!

[Show me the Money]

don't read only communist stuff, enlighten yourself with different POVs like capiatlism.... but don't be a communist lemming just because you want to oppose the system, don't just study communism... study politics, etc.