We need to rebrand ourselves - Way fowards? [Archive]

Hegemonicretribution

19th February 2003, 13:17

One of the biggest problems for the left is the instant wariness by the right, it is almost taboo to be a "communist" This is of course the intention of those that brought it about. Perhaps this was made easier by the harsh nature of the previous attempts at communism (I am not trying to argue about any past attempts). We spend a lot of time arguing almost for political correctness, we are often innacurately refered to, but not in as good a light as the right who are also incorrectly perceived. Capitalism so far has not been democratic, but a warped form of oligarchy. Communism has used different government systems, often not favourable by the people.

What I am trying to get at is if we let the people have their terms, although not correct, and instead looked for a correct term for what we really want we could get further. The majortity of us I think do not want another Soviet Union, so we should not go declaring that we want communism, instead we want (insert new term here). Who says we even have to be the left anymore? We don't have to fit the spectrum.

In the way brands rerelease themselves to boost populrity, or avoid stigma attatched to them (the new Skoda for example) we could do the same with a political ideology. Although the older generations may be sceptical, the youth could probably pick up on the new trend. The propaganda used against communism doesn't really refer to communism, but it controls the term and that has been enough for them so far.

If we could turn communism or socialism (or whatever system we want to head towards) into the "coca cola" of politics or the people's "Big Mac" A revolution would be so much easier that it may not even be neccesary. If we re-educate the youth (with the truth, including the failed past) we have the way paved for us.

(Edited by hegemonicretrobution at 1:19 pm on Feb. 19, 2003)

mentalbunny

21st February 2003, 11:50

Wow, incredible! Just what I was going to say! Now you've ruined my idea for my article for the next IL, oh well.

Yes, communism is associated with stalinism, we have no credibility as we stand, we need a new name and a new symbol. Any volunteers?

CruelVerdad

21st February 2003, 21:56

What name then...?
I like it how it is now...
Love to be a socialist...

Valkyrie

21st February 2003, 22:24

I don't think the name/label so much is important, but the ideas.. and presenting them in a fresh way.. I know I've said this all before here... but discourse has to be open to questioning and adaption and participation. Leave the dry dogmatism indoctrination out completely and people are more than likely willing to listen.. And last but not least.. if nothing else works.... make them think they thoght of it.. that it was their brillant idea.. You'll get a flock of follwers that way! :):)

mentalbunny

21st February 2003, 22:59

Paris, you speak so much sense, it's so refreshing, but I think a different name helps, like libertarian communist sounds better, but not much.

Does anyone want to cme up with a symbol?

MJM

22nd February 2003, 01:18

Humanism.

Blibblob

22nd February 2003, 01:44

DAMN YOU ALL, i thought of that first, look at my flag...if it ever decides to fucking work!!!

Just the lazy one who said he was gonna write something new...and a couple years later...never did.

*dances around*write it for me...im too lazy

Ian

22nd February 2003, 10:34

Screw the idea of making a new name and a new symbol and shit like that, what's the point? Are we denying the past?

Kez

22nd February 2003, 11:59

i agree with Ian 100%
wtf?
we cant rename the greatest ideology just because some nobheads think otherwise.

What we must do is to discuss witht eh workers what marxism really is (ive put it on a theory thread an article on what marxism is, but no1 replied), we must take away the misconceptions, and reasert what we stand for.
Get into the factories
Get into the Schools

ALL POWER TO THE SOVIETS!

Blibblob

22nd February 2003, 12:34

As long as you dont say soviets.

All power, no.

Watch what you say.*warning warning, large amount of hypocracy!!*

Kez

22nd February 2003, 14:22

wtf is blibblob on about?

anyway, what is to stop the bourgeois smearing this "new name for communism"?

redstar2000

22nd February 2003, 15:05

I'd love a new name...but there would be problems.

TK has already mentioned one: the capitalist media would not be slow to slander the new name...nor would they miss the opportunity to emphasize our "cynical new marketing ploy".

Another problem: are we going to go back through all the "classics" of Marxism and substitute the "new name" for communism? If we don't, the new "recruits" are going to find out very quickly that what we have branded as "Newname" is actually communism.

I think we communists are in the position of some engineers who have had several of our rockets blow up on the launching pad...I don't think it will help that much to call our rockets by a different name. We need better rockets.

We need better communism.

:cool:

mentalbunny

22nd February 2003, 16:35

I'm not saying an entirely new name, just a different way of saying the same kinda thing, or maybe if you get into a conversation don't say "I'm a communist", say "I believe that......". But a new symbol would be really good.

Blibblob was speaking alot of sense, please expand on what you were saying, I'd like to hear more.

Valkyrie

22nd February 2003, 17:19

Yeah, Mental Bunny, That's what I think too, a different way to communicate the same concepts and in an unthreatening way. Marx can intimidate some people if you start try to explain it by using the terms "dictatorship of the proletariat", base and superstructure.. surplus value... etc. -- you are going to see people's eyes glaze over because it is complex material and I think people have to be well-versed in Marx and economics first to really grasp it. But, there are ways to get around that by interepreting it in simpler terms on a level each individual person can understand. The one thing I always took away from reading Trotsky was his saying that if you have something to get across to all large cross-section of people, then say it in terms a five-year old can understand.. Now, that does make sense!

Blibblob

22nd February 2003, 17:25

I was speaking alot of sense? Amazing.

Times have changed drastically since Marx and Engels wrote the communist manifesto. Books about communsim have come out since then, but all they do is take quote and say "wow, isnt that great". What needs to happen is that we need to rewrite the communist manifesto, and change it around a bit.

It needs better to suit the times. When it was written "industrialization" was textile factories, big smoke stacks, and the vast majority working under pretty much slave labour.

Today, many people can work at home, industries are run by robots. The working class has left factories, and entered Wal-Mart.

This new document cant be biased. To write it you need to read not only communist articles, but try and understand what Adam Smith first wanted. It has to be something that people can relate to. And needs damaging evidence that capitalism is evil. It also needs to show the evils of communism, and give ways to fix them.

*all sense dissapeared*

Valkyrie

22nd February 2003, 17:36

Yeah, and I agree with Red Star.. not only in his repulsion of the celluloid puppets! but also in a new expanded communism. Yeah, that I totally agree. Thought and Theory should never become static but enhanced upon. New Ideas on the original idea, inclusive to the evolution of problems we face in the 21st century.

Valkyrie

22nd February 2003, 17:41

yup Blibblob.... totally agree, and we need a lot of critical theorizing of exactly what will work and what won't work and a lot of questioning and refining.

The most disasterous thing would be to bring a commuinism to a developed country only to have it collapse because it overlooked something in the process.

(Edited by Paris at 5:46 pm on Feb. 22, 2003)

Pete

22nd February 2003, 17:46

A new symbol eh?
Remeber my avatar before I lost it?
A red Annex on a black field with a green star in the corner, and white borders.

Blibblob

22nd February 2003, 17:50

(Edited by Blibblob at 12:52 pm on Feb. 22, 2003)

Blibblob

22nd February 2003, 17:51

Well, im keeping my symbol...its beginging to spread, slowly.

Hayduke

22nd February 2003, 18:02

hegemonicretrobution,

I agree with you, when people here the term " communist " or " socialist " they turn away from it. I also called this " the curse of stalin " in some other post's.

But when it comes to changing the name of your ideology, you will get no where. You need to remember that this isnt something like a mobile phone network, that changes his name to make a come back.

Alot of people, will refuse to be part of the new named ideology.
You will lose connections with the old movements. The left side might even turn against you, cause you are stealing the ideas of the socialist ideology and are putting them under a new name.

And this will only make the left, fall into more sub groups.
And we have to be as united as possible.

Bas

Blibblob

22nd February 2003, 18:10

I agree that it is the "curse of stalin". But i dont agree that true leftists will turn away from it. What it will do is knock out the ersatz (definition for those who dont know what it means- Fake, Immitation) communists. They wont be able to understand, and will leave, the largest detriment to the communist revolution are those who claim to be socialist, and then run around causing mayhem like a bunch of undereducated punk anarchists.

A new name will get at least some capitalists to read the new book that HAS to come out with it. Maybe they will see the truth and join us. In time it will either:

1. Spread far and wide, replacing communism in some parts, but still following the ideals of it.

2. Some bastard will show up and become another stalin.

3. Just not work at all.

I am hoping for the first one. The revolution is dieing. Without the help of the majority we are just another bunch of fools on the side of the road, hoping for an empty dream. It needs to be tried, Marx would be proud if we managed to just change the name of his ideals, and adapt it to today. It might actually make his dream come true. Equality for all, and an end to the oppressive capitalism.

(Edited by Blibblob at 1:11 pm on Feb. 22, 2003)

canikickit

22nd February 2003, 20:50

Did any of you ever see that programme, "Work" (or maybe, "Working")? It has Fred Savage (from the wonder years) in it.

It's based in an office, and in one episode he stared improving the workers rights and basically set it up so that everyone was equal. Everybody was really happy, except the boss and then(!) on of the co-workers said "this is communism". Then Fred Savage started saying "oh no, what have I done" and shit like that. The fact that he had improved people's jobs became irrelevant, it was communism, so that made it bad.

It's a shit fucking programme. I think it demonstates nicely how brain-washed people are.

Changing the name will make no difference. I think it's a ridiculous idea.

People are afraid of what communism means. What it really means; most people don't like it.

mentalbunny

22nd February 2003, 21:54

Well it's lovely to see some people who actually want to improve the world properly and are willing to adapt to actually get somewhere.

Blibblob and Paris, you are awesome people, but obviously the community will not agree, as we never agree about anything (except that Bush is a moron).

Sorry about the qualityh of this post, my brain isn't working because I've just come back from seeing The Hours which was so incredible.

canikickit

23rd February 2003, 00:36

You're right, everyone should always agree. That's how you make progress. Now I see the light of your brilliant ideas; now I know that by agreeing that the name needs to be changed it will make it an actuality. I will agree with everything everone sas from now on, because we must be unified, unified in being wrong. I don't want to change the world, I want it to stay exactly the same, that should be quite obvious. Yes, because I point out the futility of changing the name, that means I am wrong. Yes, yes, yes. I am not worthy of awe. I am awful.

Blibblob

23rd February 2003, 02:13

HOLY SHIT!!!

the world is coming to an end...

"Now I see the light of your brilliant ideas" Damn, never heard that before.

"Blibblob and Paris, you are awesome people, but obviously the community will not agree, as we never agree about anything (except that Bush is a moron). "

Awesome people, and i was involved?!? Most people call me an ignorant idiot...what i call myself.

MJM

23rd February 2003, 02:37

Maybe I was a bit vague in my last post or maybe no-one reads what I write. :)
I started a new thread on Raya Dunayevskaya briefly covering the ideas of Marxist-Humanism.
This I believe is the 'new branding' or whatever you want to call it. Marxism with humanist ideals, as marx intended it to be.
Gramsci and Rosa Luxemberg also fall into this catagory I believe, although I'm not 100% sure. It also includes the ideas of Lenin.
The people it doesn't include are- Mao, Stalin and Trotsky.
The idea of dispelling the evil of the labour army, five year plans and communism in one country are not new. We just have to dig a little deeper and it's there.

So people ask what you believe - Humanist. Blah, blah, blah, I also like the ideas of marx and engels.

Blibblob

23rd February 2003, 02:42

But the larges part is that it says "COMMUNISM" in big bold letters. We need something discrete. What the majority will never think of as communinsm. (shouldnt be that hard, the majority doesnt know what communism is)

(Edited by Blibblob at 9:43 pm on Feb. 22, 2003)

Kez

23rd February 2003, 08:57

im slightly concerned that people think they can just change the most significant ideology in teh 20th into another name.
Its communism, thats that, no other name, no pussyfooting around the issue.
The reason why some people turn away from the name is because of stalin and stalinism (using his network of CP's). It is our duty to change the impression of communism, and show it for what it is, not change the name, why should we? Do we despise communism?

At the last FBU picket i openly spoke about socialism and communism, noone turned away, but instead askeed questions. By asking questions i was able to answer them, the more i read, the better i can answer them, this is my duty as a marxist.

Continuing the point that the bougeois will catch onto this "new" name. The bourgeois isnt against communism per se, but its ideas, and if u keep the ideals then it wont take long before they attack it again, and what will that show? They will present it as though they think we think we were wrong about communism, but we arent!

Hayduke

23rd February 2003, 10:03

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 1:57 pm on Feb. 23, 2003
im slightly concerned that people think they can just change the most significant ideology in teh 20th into another name.
Its communism, thats that, no other name, no pussyfooting around the issue.
The reason why some people turn away from the name is because of stalin and stalinism (using his network of CP's). It is our duty to change the impression of communism, and show it for what it is, not change the name, why should we? Do we despise communism?

At the last FBU picket i openly spoke about socialism and communism, noone turned away, but instead askeed questions. By asking questions i was able to answer them, the more i read, the better i can answer them, this is my duty as a marxist.

Continuing the point that the bougeois will catch onto this "new" name. The bourgeois isnt against communism per se, but its ideas, and if u keep the ideals then it wont take long before they attack it again, and what will that show? They will present it as though they think we think we were wrong about communism, but we arent!

I second Kamo on this one.

People worked really hard, to bring this ideas on paper. You just cant change the name and begin a new ideology.

And do you really think that the reactions of the left, will be good ?
You just copied there ideas, and you try to explain to every socialist why you did it.

You can't

Blibblob

23rd February 2003, 13:40

And if anybody ever actually reads what I post, its not just a changing of a name. It is outdated, capitalism is different now than it was then.

"Times have changed drastically since Marx and Engels wrote the communist manifesto. Books about communsim have come out since then, but all they do is take quote and say "wow, isnt that great". What needs to happen is that we need to rewrite the communist manifesto, and change it around a bit.

It needs better to suit the times. When it was written "industrialization" was textile factories, big smoke stacks, and the vast majority working under pretty much slave labour.

Today, many people can work at home, industries are run by robots. The working class has left factories, and entered Wal-Mart.

This new document cant be biased. To write it you need to read not only communist articles, but try and understand what Adam Smith first wanted. It has to be something that people can relate to. And needs damaging evidence that capitalism is evil. It also needs to show the evils of communism, and give ways to fix them. "

What i posted earlier. It is not just a changing of a name, but of renewing the ideals.

Communism is dying.
"At the last FBU picket i openly spoke about socialism and communism, noone turned away, but instead askeed questions. By asking questions i was able to answer them, the more i read, the better i can answer them, this is my duty as a marxist. "

But does the MAJORITY ask questions. You were at a fucking picket line! Those there are against what is going on, and are willinging to hear things that could change it. The majority doesnt. They dont want you to explain. You need to openly state the problems that are going on, and give them hard evidence. And then ways to fix them.

Hegemonicretribution

23rd February 2003, 16:38

Just got back hmm...I wasn't proposing a highjacking of the left under a new guise, merely an evolution.

I agree with a lot of posts but I think that changing the ideology (good or bad) would result in the splitting up of the current deep thinking left, more than a mere renaming.

Whilst I agree the bourgoise in some cases would be quick to recognise this and trash it...some bourgoise may agree (not all are bad, the rags to riches aspects of capitalism still can remain..sometimes). The others may not, however what is the ELITE compared to the MASSES? A new brand can still emerge and be successful...just. Although it's competitors, I am sure, try to prevent this.

One of the key points I was trying to make is, that in such an image concious world...the dirty reds would have a hard job. Subtance doesn't play as large a role as it used to. We could get a perfect product and never catch on... However we could get a marketable product, flog it (better than anything currently available) and then improve!

No this isn't abbandonning the past, just seperating slightly and learning from the mistakes. Telling those mistakes truthfully and explaining how to avoid them. Remember in the eyes of most people communism isn't an ideology, it is an "Orwellian nightmare". The ideas will be lost in the "knowledge" they already have. This is why I said a slight seperation from the non-communist past.

People see democracy vs communism not capitalism vs communism. This is incorrect and also shows no rival to capitalism as if there is none.

Democracy is hard done to aswell, it should be better than is portraid through what we have to day, the names are incorrectly used. We could fight a revolution over political correctness and use of terms, or passively innitiate the realisation of the correct use of our term.

In short all we would give up is a name. A name that has tied to it horror stories enough to get people waving national flags and hugging their wallets as if there is no tommorow. We could gain the respect of millions, then again we might not.
But this is where we end up discussing non-stop. Should revolution be violent or peaceful? Where do we go from there etc...Most people have their own slightly adapted version, and would be daft to take fully someone else's account when they can't apply it in the same way.

This was merely one of my many possible ideas for a peacful? revolution, but then again people have kindly acted as the devil's advocate and raised some very good points. This is the only way people can learn though, through discussing their theories.

Blibblob

23rd February 2003, 18:41

Agreed.

It is worth a try, and if it doesnt work, it will never be tied to communism and we can go back to our old ways.

But lately, they arent working.

Kez

23rd February 2003, 22:53

go for it, all 3 of you, while your doing that, the other millions of marxists will be doing what marxists do and that is to prove what marxism stands for and how it will benefit the workers now.

"But lately, they arent working."
wtf, when was last tiem you went to factory or office and they slated your ideas?

Pete

23rd February 2003, 22:59

"wtf, when was last tiem you went to factory or office and they slated your ideas?"

Actually just yesterday. Well not a Factory or Office but a Retial store. You cannot forget that Retail is also wage labour! Sometimes their is commission to which is a worse form of explotation! What about you?

Hegemonicretribution

23rd February 2003, 23:14

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 10:53 pm on Feb. 23, 2003
go for it, all 3 of you, while your doing that, the other millions of marxists will be doing what marxists do and that is to prove what marxism stands for and how it will benefit the workers now.

"But lately, they arent working."
wtf, when was last tiem you went to factory or office and they slated your ideas?

Lol good crack about the 3 of us :). But anyway the problem is to the masses they haven't proved anything, even those that agree generally see it as an impracticle dream, one they are not twilling to give up a cushy lifestyle for.

As for a factory or office great. Some support, but most of these places know they owe their job to capitalism. (Financial sector especially) If people here think they have a tough work life, see how a 3rd world child labourer feels. People are given enough information to realise they aren't that badly off.

I am not saying that the old ideas are incorrect at all, nor the name, just people's perception of that name. Enough of an incorrect perception to make winning in an election seemingly impossible. Even people that would vote, feel their vote would be voted, and therefore vote for the lesser of 2 evils (or 3 or however many). This would then mean a revolution, great but if they ain't willing to put a cross down there is now way they will lay their lives down.

The whole point is that although people see things wrongly. They are so affraid that it is more practical to abbandon a term, therefore making it accessable to everyone (not just a well read leftist elite;)). If the workers are to cast off our chains we must lead by example. The chains for us are the terms that are used both positively and negatively about us and the history attatched to them.

Pete

23rd February 2003, 23:31

By visiting those places we could try and crackt heir mind set!

Blibblob

24th February 2003, 00:54

BUT... i am upper middle class. They wont listen to me...

I dont know the conditions. I just watch and learn, but never actually see. And im not allowed to get a job, until summer of 16.

Kez

24th February 2003, 10:23

you think the russian workers and peasants knew what the fuck communism and marxism was?
No, first off they supported the narodniks, thats how fuckin much they knew.

Then came marxism and the word spread.

Pete:
"Actually just yesterday. Well not a Factory or Office but a Retial store. You cannot forget that Retail is also wage labour! Sometimes their is commission to which is a worse form of explotation!"
how did they slate your ideas? what were their arguments?

What we must do is arm ourselves, not with guns or bombs, but with ideas, once we have developeed this idedas (i have not yet reached the stage when i am 100% competent to argue for marxism as im still reading) we can enter the workplaces wherever they be. How many times do you see pissed off workers? This is our time to capitalise on the situation, while capitalism is still in crisis.

Comrade Kamo

mentalbunny

24th February 2003, 14:03

Well I agree with the idea that we need to evolve. It looks like alot of "socialists" are pretty elitist, doesn't it? If you really want to spread the ideas of the Left then you have to adapt, in general we are far too dogmatic and we never seem to make a difference.

Kez

24th February 2003, 15:41

jesus christ,
where is the elitism?
Evolve where?
can we add detail to these vague statements?

too dogmatic? where give examples please

We have to adapt? right ok, so we basically take teh opportunist route? Is that what you mean?

Of course we must adapt, but only with marxism, not bullshit.

Hegemonicretribution

24th February 2003, 20:06

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 3:41 pm on Feb. 24, 2003
jesus christ,
where is the elitism?
Evolve where?
can we add detail to these vague statements?

too dogmatic? where give examples please

We have to adapt? right ok, so we basically take teh opportunist route? Is that what you mean?

Of course we must adapt, but only with marxism, not bullshit.

I have argued a few times that many leftists today are have an air of wisdom about them. This comes from reading, and that is no longer the masses choice, they live in a world of fake, predetermined activity. I said we must try and educate to bring them up a level, not stoop to theirs, but in the mean time, by the nature of many of our lives we are slightly elitist (not by choice).

How are the workers supposed to feel that badly oppressed when with a little more media exposure they could see the truelly oppressed. A lot of people won't change if they don't think it is bad enough or safe enough...

What would happen is the government would encourage nationalism....fascism? Worse off than we were before.

The Russian's weren't the best example, I personally wouldn't like that, but see that as more of a mistake to learn from. However the peasants (you said peasants) Are obviously far more oppressed. As were the workers. Long hours of back breaking labour for very little pay and poor food...Today we have 8 hour office day, union reps, 3 bedroom semi, 2 cars, time for entertainment like posting on internet sites...

The above applies to the west mostly, as this is where the revolution will start.