Hope - What is it? How does it play in the Revolutionary?

[Pete]

In every cause their is a reason, whether selfish or selfless. In every cause their is hope. Hope of sucess, hope of victory, hope of ideologically superiority. Yet the question is what is hope? Is it the anger to make something happen? Or the love and dedication to force something forward? Hope is, when examined, a detailed combination of both anger and love.
Capitalism oppresses. Most people who are anti-capitalistic are so because they hate the system. They come at it from the opposite point of view, the dialectal antithesis. They will do anything to discredit the other ideology. You can see it in the posts of FreeVenuzeula, as he is despreatly looking for some moral high ground to claim. Or from the leftist at Che-Lives; we look how to discredit America and capitalism as second nature. This hatred of what is drives us, it also gives us a love for what may be, and allows us to explore the depths of our souls to see how we wnat society to be. It turns us in to theoritical revolutionaries.
Che Guevara once said that "the true revolutionary is guided by great feelings of love." Love was a constant theme in his life, as you can see by reading his works and speeches. He fought because he was tired of the injustice and loved the people. In Man and Socialism in Cuba he refered to the people as having "incomparable enthusiasm and discipline." The people loved socialism so they would give up their lives for it. During the October Crisis Che "witnessed deeds of exceptional valour and self-sacrifice carried out by an entire people." With out this attachment to the new system their would have been no hope for it's final survival. Therefore Love is the second aspect in hope.
With membership in the antithesis, and the love of a new synthesis the theoritical revolutionary has the hope needed to wait for the right time to cut the still beating heart out of capitalism. Castro and Lenin both did it, although Lenin's work ended when the Soviet Union collapsed. They had the hate of the current thesis and the love of their selected antithesis to put their plans into action. It is after being both angry and in love in unisent that hope is born. Hope is the core of the Revolution.

hasta la victoria siempre comrades!

[Hegemonicretribution]

Excellent post, it doesn't really require a reply, but I had never really thought about it like that.

[Pete]

Nooo please reply.

[革命者]

Your screenname already says your crazy, you don't have to emphatise it! :biggrin:

(Edited by Scotty at 4:04 pm on Feb. 16, 2003)

[Pete]

Hear me or fear me!

[CruelVerdad]

Love makes a big difference, you can´t do anything without love, you must love what you´re doing, love your goals!
CHE loved what he was doing, that is why he made it!
Wanna change things, do it for love!

"The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways — the point is to change it."

[Larissa]

Great post, Pete!

Truly Che had both, a great feeling of love for people and socialist goals, as well as hatred for the capitalist imperialist systems.

I think we need both feelings to achieve what we fight for. Most people are rather "intellectual" (at least in my country) and they love to debate about politics, but still do very little "hard work". Maybe because they need to express outwardly their rage or just show-off (...their "intelligence"? ).

But, fortunatelly, some are devoted to this hard work. A revolution cannot be achieved just by words, even Marcos (our word is our weapon - a bright minded man I admire) is armed (not only with words).

[Pete]

"But, fortunatelly, some are devoted to this hard work. A revolution cannot be achieved just by words, even Marcos (our word is our weapon - a bright minded man I admire) is armed (not only with words)."

Another way of viewing love and hate could be in the weapons one uses. Although hate may create the interest in communism, it is the love of the people, the unwillingness to harm them, which causes some comrades to refuse to take up arms. Right now I would not take up arms, I would prefer to fight with love, words and knowledge, and spread our message to as many open minds as possible. One day I see myself, as do many of my friends see me, taking up arms to defend the freedom of the people. I will fight with anger. Anger without Love ends in senseless bloodshed; Love without Anger ends in mindless conformity.
We must use both to change the world, since those with the wealth will resist redistrubtion, and they will have brainsoiled some people. We can Love to clean the souls of the oppressed; We can use Anger to clean their physical environments and secure saftey.

Until the day where all humans on this Earth can walk Free from Oppression, Free from Discrimination, Free from Hunger, and most of all Free from Capitalism we must utilize both our Love of the World and our Hate of the World to create Hope.

"Truly Che had both, a great feeling of love for people and socialist goals, as well as hatred for the capitalist imperialist systems. "

That is why Che lives on today, and is one of my heroes. The sad thing is of my 2 Heroes not one is living.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Perhaps we need a philosophy forum?

[Pete]

Perhaps hegemonicretrobution...but aren't theory's just the results of philosphors thinking? I think I know what you mean though.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Well yes, but I was thinking more for the grander scale, religion, life etc.

[Pete]

Theology and the such eh? Religion and Life usually find their way into the barred doors of Chit Chat.

""The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways — the point is to change it." "

We can use the philosophies and apply them to this post-modern world we live in. Instead of trying to use Marxist-Lenninist (such as Stalin and Trostky and Mao and the whole Vanguard approach) today, we should find another way to develop the people's movements, the Anti-War protests, into communist movements. We need the love and anger to do this, and to beable to pass it onto the people. Not by leading them but by trying to guide them by their natural forces. Until we are one of them, immersed in the culture and way of life like the Zapitista's in Mexico we will always fail. We must abandon the bourgeoisie and become a proletairaint. A member of the People!

[Larissa]

"..we should find another way to develop the people's movements, the Anti-War protests, into communist movements. We need the love and anger to do this, and to beable to pass it onto the people. Not by leading them but by trying to guide them by their natural forces. Until we are one of them, immersed in the culture and way of life like the Zapitista's in Mexico we will always fail. We must abandon the bourgeoisie and become a proletairaint. A member of the People!"

I think this is the most important point. How many ppl are willing to abbandon their relaxed bourgeois lives and become part of the proletariat? How many will commit fully and sustain their commitment?

Yes, we need to drop (not to forget) all the previous discourses and find a way to materialize ppl's power.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Quote: from Larissa on 1:24 pm on Feb. 19, 2003
"..we should find another way to develop the people's movements, the Anti-War protests, into communist movements. We need the love and anger to do this, and to beable to pass it onto the people. Not by leading them but by trying to guide them by their natural forces. Until we are one of them, immersed in the culture and way of life like the Zapitista's in Mexico we will always fail. We must abandon the bourgeoisie and become a proletairaint. A member of the People!"

I think this is the most important point. How many ppl are willing to abbandon their relaxed bourgeois lives and become part of the proletariat? How many will commit fully and sustain their commitment?

Yes, we need to drop (not to forget) all the previous discourses and find a way to materialize ppl's power.


Perhaps we seperate ourselves as well, even the most non-bourgoiseistic (made up word?) of us are different in an important way, we are not afraid to think outside the lines. We are not truely part of the people, perhaps by our nature we are elevating ourselves. Thinking on the left in a world like ours can require a lot of time and effort, many of us read more frequently and deeper than the people we are trying to convert. This has no negative effect on the intelligence on many people on this board. Although not everyone is a genious, many of us use our brains more than is required for someone living by the conveniences of the system.

Even if "the people" all became part of "the people", would us, "the people" be able to stay as part of "the people", or would we try and be "the people's people" because of intelligence?

Knowledge is power and money has also been power. We could for either of these reduce our welth to that of every person, or bring them up to ours (from a bourgoise perspective) From our perspective as leftists we could abbandon our knowledge, or raise the people's. That was all terribly worded and congratulations if you understood what I meant.


"Theology and the such eh? Religion and Life usually find their way into the barred doors of Chit Chat. "
Whic is why a forum could be worth while, although chit chat can be "shit chat" There are some miscelanious threads of worth that under new policies etc would be moved or deleted in a serious forum. If not they would be out of place.

(Edited by hegemonicretrobution at 2:00 pm on Feb. 19, 2003)

[Larissa]

Honestly, I need to give it a second reading...

In the meanwhile some love...

The world stands out on either side
No wider than the heart is wide;
Above the world is stretched the sky -
No higher than the soul is high.
- Edna St. Vincent Millay

[Hegemonicretribution]

I guess simply put we can be elite ourselves because of the wisdom acquired from deeper reading. I was saying people wouldn't have to give up their lifestyle's if as long as everyone shared the luxury, just as wisdom is fine if it is shared.

[Larissa]

I agree with you hegemonic. I believe that as much as we wish to share our some-sort-of-elite intelligence, there still will be people who will not fully understand, and most of times this happens, si due to a wider context. For instance, try to explain the different points of view about Marxisim to an ethiopian child who desperately seeks not to starve...

I mean, we are more likely to fail

Subcomandante Marcos, on the other hand, (a bright mind in my opnion) has chosen to speak the native's people "language". I mean, it's not a different language, he just kept it simple enough for the people-in-need to understand it.

I have been brought up within a whelthy middle-class context, and rejected everything. I live in let's say "poor" conditions, and now I'm kind of "rich" - So, I know I wouldn't mind giving everything up again. But, IMO, I believe not many ppl would "sacrifice" material stuff.

Of course, I don't expect any of us to "sacrifice" intellectual stuff. :wink: But then again, it won't be easy to share it, still, we should always keep moving forward to "teach" and, why not ... learn as well.

True love for humanism will move us towards that direction while anger while remind us, continuously, the consequences of capitalism-imperialism.

[Felicia]

Ya know Pete, I've read some other things that you've written, poems and more, and I have a feeling that you're going to go very far in the "philosophical" world. Especially the poetry, very very very incredible :)

[Palmares]

Though "Crazy" Pete your post was compelling, O personally dislike the word "Hope". To me, it is related the religion, along with Faith. They are both blind terms, especially Faith. Rather than hope, you should actually do something. That is, if it is within your compabilities. Both hope and faith are tools of the church to make you do things that are contrary to what has already happened. Perhaps you did not mean it in this way, and if this is the case, i apologise. I have grow very synical of this world, but when i am needed, I will be ready.

[Pete]

"Though "Crazy" Pete your post was compelling, O personally dislike the word "Hope". To me, it is related the religion, along with Faith. They are both blind terms, especially Faith. Rather than hope, you should actually do something. That is, if it is within your compabilities. Both hope and faith are tools of the church to make you do things that are contrary to what has already happened. Perhaps you did not mean it in this way, and if this is the case, i apologise. I have grow very synical of this world, but when i am needed, I will be ready. "

No need for apologies comrade. I did not mean it at all in the religious sense, but more as a motivation, which could be used as a less adequate synmom for hope.

"Ya know Pete, I've read some other things that you've written, poems and more, and I have a feeling that you're going to go very far in the "philosophical" world. Especially the poetry, very very very incredible"

Thank you Felicia. Hey did you know I am going to unionize the store I work at? So It will not all by philosphical, although the philosphy intrigues me :)

"Even if "the people" all became part of "the people", would us, "the people" be able to stay as part of "the people", or would we try and be "the people's people" because of intelligence? "

I'm pretty sure I understand this. It is self explanatory to me. We cannot become above the people in our quest to become them. It would be counter productive. We only possess or intelligence to share it, why else would we be able to commincate then to share thoughts?
~~A side thought currently wealth is considered capital, 300 years ago it was considered land, in the future it may be considered knowledge, wich is hereditary only to those ready to listen and learn.

"The world stands out on either side
No wider than the heart is wide;
Above the world is stretched the sky -
No higher than the soul is high.
- Edna St. Vincent Millay "

I like this Larissa, it makes me smile, and could act, along side that Che quote on love, as a form of gentle reminder when anger takes the riegn.

"I guess simply put we can be elite ourselves because of the wisdom acquired from deeper reading. I was saying people wouldn't have to give up their lifestyle's if as long as everyone shared the luxury, just as wisdom is fine if it is shared. "

Agreed, but this Earth cannot sustain everyone to have the same lifestyle as the First world. Canada and the United States, something like 300 million people, aproximately 5% of the world population, use over 70% of its energy supply and probaly own a like amount of its wealth.

"I have been brought up within a whelthy middle-class context, and rejected everything. I live in let's say "poor" conditions, and now I'm kind of "rich" - So, I know I wouldn't mind giving everything up again. But, IMO, I believe not many ppl would "sacrifice" material stuff. "

They may not want to sacrafice it, but slowly the tables will turn on them. Look what happened to smoking in Canada. In 10 years it went from acceptable to villanous. It used to be almost considered a sin to own large amounts of capital. Family would go out of their way NOT to inherit it. The tables can be turned again. And they will, as soon as national boundries fall and everyone trys to live like the elite they will realize this and that will be when wide spread fighting begins. When 1 Indonesian = 1 American = 1 Chinese = 1 British = 1 Mongol = 1 Canadian. We cannot live like this and we will learn fast and change faster.

"Of course, I don't expect any of us to "sacrifice" intellectual stuff. But then again, it won't be easy to share it, still, we should always keep moving forward to "teach" and, why not ... learn as well."

Remember back when I had my 'paradigms of socialism' thread? I talked about how every socialist (refering to the entire Leftist movement) must be a teacher in order for our cause to succeed. By sharing what we know we will spread the seed of revolution. "How long? Not long, because what you reap is what you sow!" ~Zack de la Rocha. Writing is one way, Aristotle apreaciated books more then material things (that is from the quote I must analyse for my portfolio!! Pete remember this!!), so by recording what we have learned in both the scientific terms and the simple terms it will be forever ingrained into human memory. Marx is an example of this. If he never touched pen to paper (my writing teachers FAVOURITE saying) then the world would be radically different today. Therefore we must spread our knowledge, and learn from what others spread, in order to make our sucess inevitable while keeping our heads deflated, since one human life holds no more value then another when it is all boiled down.

"True love for humanism will move us towards that direction while anger while remind us, continuously, the consequences of capitalism-imperialism. "

I concur moma comrade :)

"We must abandon the bourgeoisie and become a proletairaint. A member of the People! "

To draw back to that, well this is probaly for another forum, but I can get the idea out here first. By subjecting all of the Workers Parties to an international Workers union our cause could be advanced faster, with global solidarity. Shut down entire industries at a time. Just think... :biggrin:

[Larissa]

A bit off-topic, but still...

When reading the following:
"Canada and the United States, something like 300 million people, aproximately 5% of the world population, use over 70% of its energy supply and probaly own a like amount of its wealth. "

I suddenly remembered a soe sort of "ecological" problem we are having in Argentina. Some people like Ted Turner and other guys are buying extense areas of land in the western part of our country (central western - at the Andes)...

WHY? Because of the huge reservoirs of naturl water.

In the future, let's hope not, when (paraphrasing Einstein) "WW4 will be fought with stones and sticks", oil will not be the most valuable source, but water will.

In Bariloche, the biggest skiing city of South America, there is also the nuclear power plant and the whole are is VERY rich in natural resources. AFAIK, some welthy guys like Mr. CNN, are buying land here and there.

This, obviously, upsets me, and I hope one day we can expropriate the land and give it back to the Mapuches, the aborigins who naturally lived there.

[Pete]

Yes this is for another thread, bt I will continue it here.

"WHY? Because of the huge reservoirs of naturl water. "

Canada has the most freshwater in the world, America is quickly running out. They want basically flood Northern Quebec and everything north of 60*N to turn into mass hydro dams for their electricity. In Brazil they flooded a huge area to supply the wealthy, while the poor displaced peasants go powerless and now landless.

"This, obviously, upsets me, and I hope one day we can expropriate the land and give it back to the Mapuches, the aborigins who naturally lived there."

Fortuantely in Canada the Cree (I think) and Innu have been given the rights to HUGE plots of land as traditional territory. This means taht their permission is required to do anything with it (including separating it from Canada). But these problems ("some welthy guys like Mr. CNN, are buying land here and there. ") give us a constant reminder of why we are angery and keeps it alive. As well by caring for what happens we show that we still have the love for this Earth and its inhabitants to make a change.

Actually this is definitly not out of place, as it shows how anger and love create Hope in our lives.