Gangs

[NorthStarRepublicML]

wasn't sure where to post this:

just read that the number of gangs in the USA is roughly 30,00 and gang members in the USA nunber upwards of 800,000 while the local and state police forces number only 700,000 ......

do you believe that gangs have any revolutionary potential (positive or negative) ?

it would seem that these numbers suggest that in terms of revolutionary planning gangs must be considered one way or the other .... agree or disagree?

http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/96natyouthgangsrvy/surv_3.html

[CheRev]

I believe many started out in the revolutionary spirit, well at least to protect their neighbourhoods, but of course rivalries, hierarchical organizations, and the ´eye-for-an-eye´ mentality are always going to be their downfall. Although saying this I can see a certain potential in them, if run correctly from the start.

Has anyone seen Ross Kemp´s series on gangs? Really good insight in how they are run.

[Dimentio]

I would certainly not want to see a revolutionary government composed of gang members. They are most often regio-centric and even ethnocentric, and are a breeding ground for armed psychopaths.

[A-S M.]

they could easily take over the streets if they want to but you have to understand a lot of them are funded behind the screens by people with a different agenda then revolution, and because of rivalty that they can't seem to put beside them a cooperation is pretty much impossible

[Labor Shall Rule]

I think workplaces should be the nucleus of a new sort of 'gang' -- volunteer units formed by elected defense committees that would defend communities from the violence permeated by armed parties that the capitalist state necessitates; thieves, robbers, drug dealers, hitmen, police, state miltia, and bounty hunters. It should be noticed that these thugs have no revolutionary potential whatsoever, as sourced from the 1,156 working people who died as of last year from such violence that has torn communities apart on the basis of gang colors and symbology. In Los Angeles, hispanic and black workers have been torn apart in a war of racial and gang lines; the Latino gangs have claimed that there is an 'ethnic clensing' that the 'blackies' and 'dark-skins' have started -- the scapegoating of a whole race is reactionary and repressive, something that is undeserving of classifying gangs as organizations with 'revolutionary potential'.

[NorthStarRepublicML]

has anyone here read the book "the spook who sat by the door" ? (i think they made a movie too)

it concerns an african american CIA agent who goes AWOL and begins to train gang members for revolutionary activities in Chicago during the early 1970's .....

definatly worth checking out .....

but as far as gangs go today ..... how would they be delt with during a socialist revolution? would the majority participate in alliance with the proliteriat? or would larger amounts of them work to preserve their lumpen status by defending capitalism ?

how would gangs in the USA be brought over to supporting socialism? and if this is not possible what then?


although there is often diagreement over the term lumpenproliteriat i belive that if it is to be applied correctly in any isntance it would be to criminal gang members (not necessarily the leaders and investors) and the homeless .... agree? disagree?


the 1,156 working people who died as of last year

considering the number of gang members (800,000) in the US and the number of deaths attributed to them (to say nothing of other life destroying activities such as mass addiction) should this not be a more overt focus of the socialist struggle, either to educate gang members or to help communities to stand up to these rampant criminals?

would you call this a war?

[Rawthentic]

We gotta talk, have meetings, etc., about the need for unity because the problems and oppression we face under capitalism cross all gang territories and boundaries.

I'm actually working on that here in my city, we have a huge gang violence problem.

[furious]

For the most part gangs are bad news, although individual gang members may be converted for the left.

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 06:20 pm
For the most part gangs are bad news, although individual gang members may be converted for the left.
Dont write off gang members like that. Alot of my friends are ex-gang members or current members, and they tell me the inner workings of gangs. Most of the kids who are recruited are looking for something to believe in, or someone to die for, gangs have a large revolutionary potential.

[temp918273]

Most street gangs are often just organized criminals who's members are often faced with the unfortunate prospects of being killed in the streets or sent to jail. However they are social organizations that consist predominately of the underprivileged and could possibly have a revolutionary potential if they were to become political.

However, given the activities and the nature of a lot of organized crime, I doubt that the organizations themselves have much of a chance to become political. Most of the time they are motivated by profit in the underground economy with little to no focus on community building.

[Ze]

About gangs uniting for a revolutionary purpose, I just have to quote one of the best gang movies ever made, "CAN YOU DIG IIITT?!?"

[Pirate Utopian]

That's 60.000 soldiers now there aint but 20.000 police in this whole town, can you dig it?, can you dig it?!, CAN YOU DIG IT!?

But on a serious note it happend a few times gangs turned into movements like the Black Spades from the Bronx into the Zulu Nation or the Young Lords Party wich became a movement for hispanics in Chicago.

[Janus]

This topic has been visited a number of times:

Street gangs & revolution (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=62404&hl=gang*)
Gangs (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=62517&hl=gang*)
Gangs (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65247&hl=gang*)

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 07:00 pm
I would certainly not want to see a revolutionary government composed of gang members. They are most often regio-centric and even ethnocentric, and are a breeding ground for armed psychopaths.
Both theory and my own experiences wud lead me to agree with you strongly.

What was the phrase Marx used in the Manifesto? something like, thier life prepares them for the role bribed tools of the reactionary intrigue.

[furious]

Originally posted by Organic Revolution+June 11, 2007 02:54 am--> (Organic Revolution @ June 11, 2007 02:54 am)
[email protected] 10, 2007 06:20 pm
For the most part gangs are bad news, although individual gang members may be converted for the left.
Dont write off gang members like that. Alot of my friends are ex-gang members or current members, and they tell me the inner workings of gangs. Most of the kids who are recruited are looking for something to believe in, or someone to die for, gangs have a large revolutionary potential. [/b]
By that rationale a lot of people who join the U.S. military ARE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO BELONG TO TOO!!!! Is tere any revolutionary potential there?

[Dr Mindbender]

Ive always viewes gangs as another divide and conquer method used by the establishment who are more than happy for them to blow each other away. Although many gangs may in some repect have a 'revolutionary' essence, they nearly always have reactionary effect as they divert anger to each other as opposed to the authorities. Also, no-ones mentioned the obvious detrimental effects of the drugs trade within gangs, or the rampant machismo mysoginy and homophobia which is also rife in gang culture.

If you want to encounter gangs which are blatantly counter revolutionary, the place to come is Northern Ireland where here we have the royalty/police loving loyalist paramilitaries.

[furious]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 13, 2007 12:18 am
Ive always viewes gangs as another divide and conquer method used by the establishment who are more than happy for them to blow each other away. Although many gangs may in some repect have a 'revolutionary' essence, they nearly always have reactionary effect as they divert anger to each other as opposed to the authorities. Also, no-ones mentioned the obvious detrimental effects of the drugs trade within gangs, or the rampant machismo mysoginy and homophobia which is also rife in gang culture.

If you want to encounter gangs which are blatantly counter revolutionary, the place to come is Northern Ireland where here we have the royalty/police loving loyalist paramilitaries.
I don't agree with that. The establishment has a "false consciousness," that is, they do not believe a workers' revolution is possible. The ruling class do not see their system as evil. They think their system is good and will last forever. That is called "false consciousness." Gangs are a result of harsh economic and cultural conditions brought about by the capitalist mode of production.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by furious+June 13, 2007 12:37 am--> (furious @ June 13, 2007 12:37 am)
Ulster [email protected] 13, 2007 12:18 am
Ive always viewes gangs as another divide and conquer method used by the establishment who are more than happy for them to blow each other away. Although many gangs may in some repect have a 'revolutionary' essence, they nearly always have reactionary effect as they divert anger to each other as opposed to the authorities. Also, no-ones mentioned the obvious detrimental effects of the drugs trade within gangs, or the rampant machismo mysoginy and homophobia which is also rife in gang culture.

If you want to encounter gangs which are blatantly counter revolutionary, the place to come is Northern Ireland where here we have the royalty/police loving loyalist paramilitaries.
I don't agree with that. The establishment has a "false consciousness," that is, they do not believe a workers' revolution is possible. The ruling class do not see their system as evil. They think their system is good and will last forever. That is called "false consciousness." Gangs are a result of harsh economic and cultural conditions brought about by the capitalist mode of production. [/b]
How do gangs make revolution more likely if all they appear to do is divert anger by attacking other coloquial-centric tribes and by polluting the minds of their own youth with drugs and sexist attitudes?
I would like to believe the contrary does take place, but popular media makes very depressing conclusions. I think the burden falls on the politically conscience to lead the way in defeating the beast.

[Political_Chucky]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 11:21 am
thieves, robbers, drug dealers, hitmen, police, state miltia, and bounty hunters. It should be noticed that these thugs have no revolutionary potential whatsoever, as sourced from the 1,156 working people who died as of last year from such violence that has torn communities apart on the basis of gang colors and symbology.
And where do you come up with this conclusion? Not all Thieves, robbers, and drug dealers are violence stricken maniacs killing for gangs or some kind of blood thirst. I know plenty of people who are such individuals and have never killed a man or even participated in such activities. Plus, basically all of these individuals are like this because of their capitalistic society.

I think gangs in numbers really need to be severely reduced before any revolution is to happen. Imagine just chaos from ignorant masses killing off any leftists and defending the capitalist scum. But, a lot of gang members have potential. Chulos or Chicano gangsters are really nationalistic because of most Mexicans of Aztec-descent attitude towards aztlan and the U.S. taking away their land. All what would be needed of people of this mind set is to make them realize nationalism and borders in general are what separates us workers from overthrowing the powers.

[( R )evolution]

Gangs do have a great revolutionary potential but until we can get them out of there mindset that they must get money to suriviue by all means then they wont be a good thing for the revolution. Most gang members can not look past the immediate needs of themselves and group. In order for gangs to become apart of the revolutionary struggle they must look past making that quick dollar from robbing that liquor store and make the change to destroying the bourgeois system. Sadly, most gangs will always exist simple to gain immediate needs such as food, money and until they can see past this, and gain revolutionary conscious they will pretty much ineffective to our struggle.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 12:10 am
By that rationale a lot of people who join the U.S. military ARE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO BELONG TO TOO!!!! Is tere any revolutionary potential there?
Yes.

[NewEast]

Furious, check out the Vietnam War to see just how much revolutionary potential there can be in the US Army. There's a documentary called 'Sir No Sir' that you should check out.

[Comeback Kid]

The fact of the matter is that there is revolutionary potentital in every single social group, within the working classs community and culture.

Its a tactic that has been used by all sides of politics, some subtley, some not so. Back in the day the Klan was regarded as a gentlemens club that engaded in various other pursist besides lynching slaves. Hitler youth was a scouts like organization that did the same. Even the Critical Mass movement of our own does it. Not everyone that rides a bike is a car hating, eco-friendly anarchist.

Social groups are the tightest and strongest social links we have. People are much more likely to take up arms if one of the close friends persuades them that it is a good idea, rather then a unamed author or a random pamflet they found in the gutter.

Gang sociology is know to have some of the tightest bonds between members of groups.

As they are members of the lower-working class, it shouldn't be that hard to educate them on their suffering.

Race, poverty, unemployment fuel these groups, and that is the very thing we are fighting against. Just as much attention should be on anti-gang as anti-recruitment campagins.

to finish

CAN YOU COUNT SUKAS?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b275/athiestsinfoxholes/Turnbull_AC.jpg

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by furious+June 12, 2007 07:10 pm--> (furious @ June 12, 2007 07:10 pm)
Originally posted by Organic [email protected] 11, 2007 02:54 am

[email protected] 10, 2007 06:20 pm
For the most part gangs are bad news, although individual gang members may be converted for the left.
Dont write off gang members like that. Alot of my friends are ex-gang members or current members, and they tell me the inner workings of gangs. Most of the kids who are recruited are looking for something to believe in, or someone to die for, gangs have a large revolutionary potential.
By that rationale a lot of people who join the U.S. military ARE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO BELONG TO TOO!!!! Is tere any revolutionary potential there? [/b]
Yes, there is a very large amount of it. I think that people need to stop viewing the "lumpens" as anything other than an extension of the capitalist class system into the criminal world. Obviously, certain parts of street gangs have revolutionary potential, i.e. the lower down gang members that do the dirty work, but those up high that profit off of the work of the lower members have the same interests that the legal bourgeois does.

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 06:20 pm

By that rationale a lot of people who join the U.S. military ARE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO BELONG TO TOO!!!! Is tere any revolutionary potential there?

Absolutely. I think they're great revolutionary potential in doing organizing in the military and it's actually an area of work that I've been active in and believe will become increasingly important over the next few years.

[BreadBros]

Not all gangs are made the same...

Some gangs often have a very nationalist bent. Whether it be overt (as with the Zulu Nation or Young Lords) or covert (such as with the Mafia or ethnic organized crime). I think this type of gang is the product of a disparity in economic situation between the majority of the populace and a minority group, resulting in fertile territory for economic "ventures". I think this type of gang may have some progressive potential but is ultimately capitalist in nature.

Then there are gangs that are essentially armed black-market capitalist operations. I dont think I have to add anything there.

Then there are the type of local streetgangs that are formed by neighborhood people for protection from other gangs or for very localized drug trade and the such. This type of gang can vary very very widely from psychopathic and terrorizing of the local population to more organic and a part of the population. Many of the "foot-soldiers" in this type of gang are probably proletarian in nature and would be likely to join a revolution, would be my guess.

There, thats my sociology of gangs :-P

[BreadBros]

Also, is anyone here acquainted with the Rampart police scandal in Los Angeles? Like I've said before, I think anyone who says that a socialist revolution must include some kinda focus on destroying street gangs is missing the point. However, I also think the Rampart scandal throws a wrench into the view that street gangs are somehow great or revolutionary. Turns out that some of the members of the LAPD's CRASH anti-gang unit were secretly gang members themselves while off-duty and exploited their position to steal confiscated drugs, plan robberies and use their authority to muscle the gangs they were supposed to police, AKA their rivals. Someone even said "CRASH [the anti-gang unit] ... became, in effect, the most badass gang in the city". Shows you how the line between "law and order" and "crime" is blurred and much of it consists of an illusion aimed at controlling us by setting up false dichotomies.

[Rawthentic]

These gangsters, many of whom I am in regular contact with daily, are looking for something to die for since society has cast them away. Besides this, they want to protect their families and neighborhoods, and these are the things that need to be given a revolutionary character, a political character.

Its similar to what the BPP did.

[BreadBros]

Maybe, but I don't think exploiting people who want "something to die for" because they feel exasperated by the world is what we're really in this for. I think our goal should be to give those people "something to live for", which is usually a much better motivator in terms of doing something positive.