An intruiging idea - new strategy

[Lardlad95]

I personally am a Democratic Socialist

I know people here are revolutionaries

Now we each have our strategy for taking voer capitalism and I was thinking.....

What would happen if we just let capitalism fall on it's own?

Capitalism fumbles we recover the ball.

Since it's bound to destroy it's self anyway lets wait until It completely obliterates it's self

then during the middle turmoil age we come to power

now I'm not saying this is my new strategy I'm just wondering what would happen if we let it destory it's self

[Larissa]

"What would happen if we just let capitalism fall on it's own?
Capitalism fumbles we recover the ball. "

Actually, something like this happened in my country. The capitalistic economy collapsed (crashed and fell very deep) and some ppl did smart things, like workers who took over factories and reopened them throwing out its owner.

BUT, we still have a bunch of imbeciles, sort of powerful middle and high classes, and lousy middle-low class people who whishes to become middle class or higher someday, who still think it's been "bad luck" and we should put our best efforts to recover capitalism.

I get really upset sometimes, but still, I keep trying to explian this type of morons why they are so wrong about their ideas. I'm stubborn, I know, but I can't help it. I'll keep explaining people why capitalism sucks and doesn't really work (it only works for a certain minority we all know well) until I die.

Cheers.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Larissa on 2:51 am on Feb. 12, 2003
"What would happen if we just let capitalism fall on it's own?
Capitalism fumbles we recover the ball. "

Actually, something like this happened in my country. The capitalistic economy collapsed (crashed and fell very deep) and some ppl did smart things, like workers who took over factories and reopened them throwing out its owner.

BUT, we still have a bunch of imbeciles, sort of powerful middle and high classes, and lousy middle-low class people who whishes to become middle class or higher someday, who still think it's been "bad luck" and we should put our best efforts to recover capitalism.

I get really upset sometimes, but still, I keep trying to explian this type of morons why they are so wrong about their ideas. I'm stubborn, I know, but I can't help it. I'll keep explaining people why capitalism sucks and doesn't really work (it only works for a certain minority we all know well) until I die.

Cheers.


and you live were?

[Larissa]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 11:56 pm on Feb. 11, 2003

Quote: from Larissa on 2:51 am on Feb. 12, 2003
"What would happen if we just let capitalism fall on it's own?
Capitalism fumbles we recover the ball. "

Actually, something like this happened in my country. The capitalistic economy collapsed (crashed and fell very deep) and some ppl did smart things, like workers who took over factories and reopened them throwing out its owner.

BUT, we still have a bunch of imbeciles, sort of powerful middle and high classes, and lousy middle-low class people who whishes to become middle class or higher someday, who still think it's been "bad luck" and we should put our best efforts to recover capitalism.

I get really upset sometimes, but still, I keep trying to explian this type of morons why they are so wrong about their ideas. I'm stubborn, I know, but I can't help it. I'll keep explaining people why capitalism sucks and doesn't really work (it only works for a certain minority we all know well) until I die.

Cheers.


and you live were? Sorry, Lardlad. I live in Argentina, weird country, yet I love my country. Che's homeland.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

How would Capitalism fall allowing for a Socialist movement? What happened in Argentina is not going to occur in the US, or globaly. If this occurs in one nation, as it did in Argentina, it will not affect the world. Capitalism will only fall when the proletariat class supresses the burgois class through a violent revolution.

[CheViveToday]

Yes I agree for worldwide reform, or extreme reform in a powerful country like the U.S., swift action must be taken. This is hard to hear since most leftists are anti-war, but violence is the only way to accomplish a few things. This, I believe, is one of them.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Victorcommie on 3:50 am on Feb. 12, 2003
How would Capitalism fall allowing for a Socialist movement? What happened in Argentina is not going to occur in the US, or globaly. If this occurs in one nation, as it did in Argentina, it will not affect the world. Capitalism will only fall when the proletariat class supresses the burgois class through a violent revolution.



OK....here's a gun....go after Bush the rest of us will be right behind you....sucker

anyway saying that Capitalism can only fall through revolution would be making the claim that it can't fail on it's own.

and don't we as leftists claim it's an inferior system?

And if it's an inferior system isn't it capable of failing on it's own

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from CheViveToday on 4:04 am on Feb. 12, 2003
Yes I agree for worldwide reform, or extreme reform in a powerful country like the U.S., swift action must be taken. This is hard to hear since most leftists are anti-war, but violence is the only way to accomplish a few things. This, I believe, is one of them.


Slow down son.....how do you honestly expect a revolution to be carried out in the US?

[MJM]

It would be great and may be the way it works out in the end.

A few problems;

The enviromental destruction happening as a result of capitalist expolitation of the earths resources. We could well wait too long before we take power with a violent revolution.

Every time there is a bust period in the big leading capitalist countries war will happen. It's simple, markets crashing, start a war, blame someone else, the populous will gather around to fight the enemy, during this time people work harder and will do a lot more and not strike or break with their team, blame someone else for the bad shit - externalise the problem.

The ruling class will try and hold onto their power even after the system has self destructed, the real problem here is they have the BIG bombs and we don't.

Market crashes don't always happen everywhere at once, so a crash in Argentina may happen, but the left can't take power because international capital will always back it's friends, the risk of losing precious resources is too great to let the left take real power.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from MJM on 8:02 am on Feb. 12, 2003
It would be great and may be the way it works out in the end.

A few problems;

The enviromental destruction happening as a result of capitalist expolitation of the earths resources. We could well wait too long before we take power with a violent revolution.

Every time there is a bust period in the big leading capitalist countries war will happen. It's simple, markets crashing, start a war, blame someone else, the populous will gather around to fight the enemy, during this time people work harder and will do a lot more and not strike or break with their team, blame someone else for the bad shit - externalise the problem.

The ruling class will try and hold onto their power even after the system has self destructed, the real problem here is they have the BIG bombs and we don't.

Market crashes don't always happen everywhere at once, so a crash in Argentina may happen, but the left can't take power because international capital will always back it's friends, the risk of losing precious resources is too great to let the left take real power.

I see where you are coming from and all of those points make hella sense and i will adress those when I'm not throwing up every two seconds

but one thing I want to ask

When teh US falls do you think anyone will really try and help it?

[MJM]

When teh US falls do you think anyone will really try and help it?

No not help it, here's where the big bomb problem comes into play.
There could be a vacuum of some sorts and either the EU, China or maybe some other federation or union may try to fill it.
Uncle sams leading capitalists may not be so happy to see this happen.
It may be a peaceful change over like the UK and the USA after WW2, who knows.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from MJM on 8:13 am on Feb. 12, 2003

When teh US falls do you think anyone will really try and help it?

No not help it, here's where the big bomb problem comes into play.
There could be a vacuum of some sorts and either the EU, China or maybe some other federation or union may try to fill it.
Uncle sams leading capitalists may not be so happy to see this happen.
It may be a peaceful change over like the UK and the USA after WW2, who knows.


well I was thinking in tersm of capitalism failing globally

[Larissa]

Capitalism failing globally, maybe... But, in the past, when empires fell (like the Roman empire, or the Egyptian Pharaons State...etc.) it still didn't happen all at the same time...so I believe that it is not very likely to fall everywhere at the same time...

Also, in Argentina, it just happened in a 1%, which is too low. And it is not likely to happen in countries or states that are not oppressed. Mainly, I think the problem is that when a certain nation or even small groups of ppl have a good living standard and are not "exploited" (at least they think or feel they are not) it is difficult to have capitalism failing and being replaced with socialism.

Che once said you need to have certain "conditions"...and a general sense of "wellfare" doesn't make such conditions...

Socialism was achieved in very oppressed countries like Batista's Cuba or the Tsarist's Russia, or it can be achieved in intelligent countries that are political mature enough to move forward to a socialist government.

[redstar2000]

There's a sense in which your insight is valid, Lardlad95. One of the possible scenarios of the fall of capitalism is a long period of economic stagnation (global) with gradually declining wages and conditions for the international working class.

The only remaining source of capital investment in such a situation are the bourgeois governments which, against their will, are forced to nationalize essential industries if they are to remain functioning at all.

Should the working class rise against such a government, it will find that the economic powers that it needs are already present and ready-to-go.

Likewise, should the various capitalist classes permit a working class party to be elected into office (Engels thought this might happen in England and Germany), again the economic powers are present and ready to be used.

Personally, I still hold with the traditional Marxist "forecast"...permanent global economic depression followed by insurrection and revolution.

But, it must be admitted, nobody really knows how it will turn out.

:cool:

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Larissa on 12:58 pm on Feb. 12, 2003
Capitalism failing globally, maybe... But, in the past, when empires fell (like the Roman empire, or the Egyptian Pharaons State...etc.) it still didn't happen all at the same time...so I believe that it is not very likely to fall everywhere at the same time...

Also, in Argentina, it just happened in a 1%, which is too low. And it is not likely to happen in countries or states that are not oppressed. Mainly, I think the problem is that when a certain nation or even small groups of ppl have a good living standard and are not "exploited" (at least they think or feel they are not) it is difficult to have capitalism failing and being replaced with socialism.

Che once said you need to have certain "conditions"...and a general sense of "wellfare" doesn't make such conditions...

Socialism was achieved in very oppressed countries like Batista's Cuba or the Tsarist's Russia, or it can be achieved in intelligent countries that are political mature enough to move forward to a socialist government.


You right empires haven't fallen at teh same time.

But then again if it were truly an empire it would have practicaly total control of the world and if anyone opposed it wouldn't be opposed for long

Roman empire was the only empire around when it reached it's hieght

Same with the Greeks and Egyptians


Take a look at America....is there any country who's ass America couldn't kick?

It's imperalism in action

America is the new Rome

America falls...I'm willing to bet that others will follow

[Spartaco]

Plus today capitalism is an increasingly global phenomenom which compleatly ignores bourndries and unites the whole world.

Empires of the past were independent from the rest of the world and therefore fell in different times.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 3:56 pm on Feb. 12, 2003
There's a sense in which your insight is valid, Lardlad95. One of the possible scenarios of the fall of capitalism is a long period of economic stagnation (global) with gradually declining wages and conditions for the international working class.

The only remaining source of capital investment in such a situation are the bourgeois governments which, against their will, are forced to nationalize essential industries if they are to remain functioning at all.

Should the working class rise against such a government, it will find that the economic powers that it needs are already present and ready-to-go.

Likewise, should the various capitalist classes permit a working class party to be elected into office (Engels thought this might happen in England and Germany), again the economic powers are present and ready to be used.

Personally, I still hold with the traditional Marxist "forecast"...permanent global economic depression followed by insurrection and revolution.

But, it must be admitted, nobody really knows how it will turn out.

:cool:


With the government in the depression you described it would be easy for a revolution to take place

so maybe it will go half and half..let capitalism weaken it's self...tehn we deliver the final blow

[Larissa]

"so maybe it will go half and half..let capitalism weaken it's self...tehn we deliver the final blow"

This seems to me very realistic and feasible. Working "together"will (at least most likely to) "assure" a definite fall for capitalism and settlement of socialism. Good thought Lardlad95.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

If there is a permanent decline in the global economy, which I think there will be, a revolution is needed. We cannot simply gain control of the government, the corporate powers would be weakened, yet they would still not allow for such actions.
A likely scenario is that once the economy begins to dwindle and the left wing gain support, an opressive right-wing dictatorship could take over.

[CheViveToday]

No, I don't believe it's likely that a revolution will be carried out here in the U.S. in the near future, however, more we say that, the more true it becomes. Perhaps now is better than later.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

A revolution in America is very unlikely. There is no proletariat class in America. The oppressed majority do not know that they are living under a confining and opressive system.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Victorcommie on 11:44 pm on Feb. 12, 2003
If there is a permanent decline in the global economy, which I think there will be, a revolution is needed. We cannot simply gain control of the government, the corporate powers would be weakened, yet they would still not allow for such actions.
A likely scenario is that once the economy begins to dwindle and the left wing gain support, an opressive right-wing dictatorship could take over.



I don't think the right will be so bold

when they see the left gaining support they will lose all of theirs if they assume a dictatorship.

Instead they will make an attempt to slander us

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from CheViveToday on 11:45 pm on Feb. 12, 2003
No, I don't believe it's likely that a revolution will be carried out here in the U.S. in the near future, however, more we say that, the more true it becomes. Perhaps now is better than later.


Now is better than alter...come on comrade

US is the single most powerful country on the face of the earth with the best trained military and most advanced weapons

taking them on now with nothing but some aks, some m-16s, maybe a grenade or two is suicide


we don't have the resources yet

[CheViveToday]

Yeah Victor, I was just replying to something someone said to me towards the beginning of the thread. I didn't mean to make it look like it just came out of nowhere, lol.

[CheViveToday]

Lardlad, I understand you. But I meant like 10 years from now instead of say 30 years from now. Who knows how powerful the U.S. will be that long from now. Perhaps they'll have started to crumble, perhaps they'll be three times as powerful. If only those magic 8-balls really worked....

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from CheViveToday on 11:52 pm on Feb. 12, 2003
Lardlad, I understand you. But I meant like 10 years from now instead of say 30 years from now. Who knows how powerful the U.S. will be that long from now. Perhaps they'll have started to crumble, perhaps they'll be three times as powerful. If only those magic 8-balls really worked....


I doubt that the US will be weak enough in 10 years.

Unless there is some catostrophic dissaster

It's strength right now couldn't decline that fast in 10 years.

[CheViveToday]

Yes, my point was not that something should be done when they are weakened, but before they get stronger, because chances are the US isn't getting any weaker within the next 200 years. I'm not saying it's a very good point....perhaps waiting for weakness is the best idea. Anyways, revolution should go on in other countries right now where it could happen much more easily and conveniantly. Revolution in the US can wait, because yes, it is way too powerful right now. Perhaps it's not a question of the government weakening, but the people becoming stronger and waking up from their zombie "believe anything the government tells me" state.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from CheViveToday on 12:54 am on Feb. 13, 2003
Yes, my point was not that something should be done when they are weakened, but before they get stronger, because chances are the US isn't getting any weaker within the next 200 years. I'm not saying it's a very good point....perhaps waiting for weakness is the best idea. Anyways, revolution should go on in other countries right now where it could happen much more easily and conveniantly. Revolution in the US can wait, because yes, it is way too powerful right now. Perhaps it's not a question of the government weakening, but the people becoming stronger and waking up from their zombie "believe anything the government tells me" state.

I'm sorry but I must disagree

The US must fallbefore another STRONG Socialist society can come about. And the key word is strong

the US will only either:

A) Attack

B) Sanction

C) Intimidate

the new nation.

THe US has to go first.

[CheViveToday]

You don't think small countries somewhere could create a strong socialist society these days before the U.S. falls? If so, why isn't the U.S. attacking Cuba?

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from CheViveToday on 9:03 pm on Feb. 13, 2003
You don't think small countries somewhere could create a strong socialist society these days before the U.S. falls? If so, why isn't the U.S. attacking Cuba?

Because of an uproar from the international community

plus Castro has been in power to long

with a new society it could be easy for the US to do it easy

but the US had it's chance with Cuba

[Larissa]

"but the US had it's chance with Cuba"

Not one chance, but many and ALWAYS LOST against Cuba.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Larissa on 10:57 am on Feb. 14, 2003
"but the US had it's chance with Cuba"

Not one chance, but many and ALWAYS LOST against Cuba.

Not lost it just didn't suceed

as much as we would hate to admit it if the US atacked cuba head on....down goes Fidel