Lets talk socialism and not communism

[R_P_A_S]

I feel we spend much more time asking questions and debating as to how communism would work that I sort of don't really know much in depth how socialism will work. Most questions about every day life and the work place have to deal with communism. I would like to talk more about socialism.

OK, so Socialism is an economic system, It would still have a "state" though right? and It will still have money correct? And the state would own the means of production... but distribute the wealth accordingly. in a more democratic "government" obviously with worker councils and a true peoples government??

Lets talk about certain jobs. and existing companies and how things would change for those employees and and employers.

My 1st question is:

A self-employed plumber. I had one come by the other day, the land lord of my building called him to fix our sink. The van he drives is like a business on wheels. web site, email and his phone number. even says he takes Visa, Master Card and AMEX.

I asked him if he likes being a plumber and he told me he did because he gets to meet different people every day and every job is always different. he gets to work indoors and outdoors. and the money is good.

So what the hell would happen to this guy under socialism? would he be asked to join like the plumbers union and the state would dispatch them to their different jobs? and set their wage or what not?

What about other self-employed people like that?

[Concept]

ya i'd like to know what would happen in a situation like that too

also in either socialism or communism would all religion be abolished?
cuz i can't see taking a monk's lifestyle away from him...let them farm but continue with their monasticism
i've always wanted to go to a monastery for couple years but also wanna support the revolution...i'm torn :unsure:

i'm really feeling what Chavez is doing in Venezeula and would like to learn more on socialism...any suggestions for books?

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

So what the hell would happen to this guy under socialism? would he be asked to join like the plumbers union and the state would dispatch them to their different jobs? and set their wage or what not?

Same as now, but he would pay a progressive tax.

I cannot see anyone stopping him being a plumber or making him work for other people.

And in return for the tax he would pay on his income he would get all the securities that socialism offers regular workers.

the state/community would probably foot the bill for fixing your plumbing.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

also in either socialism or communism would all religion be abolished?

In Russia, before Stalin, religion was respected, people could not get conscripted if it conflicted with their religious beliefs.



cuz i can't see taking a monk's lifestyle away from him...let them farm but continue with their monasticism

The monks in Russia kicked out the higher up monks, whatever the actual designation is I don't know, but the monks ran the monasteries collectively.

This was because the monks had to grow their own food, so they were basically in tune with the workers and saw the higher up monk guy as an exploiter.

Religion will disappear only when the conditions that create a need for religion disappears.

Killing priests and burning churches is really not effective and is just a symbol of top down social control.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 06:08 pm
ya i'd like to know what would happen in a situation like that too

also in either socialism or communism would all religion be abolished?
cuz i can't see taking a monk's lifestyle away from him...let them farm but continue with their monasticism
i've always wanted to go to a monastery for couple years but also wanna support the revolution...i'm torn :unsure:

i'm really feeling what Chavez is doing in Venezeula and would like to learn more on socialism...any suggestions for books?
there are plenty of threads already on religion. so try searching for them.

I would like to focus this issue on jobs, specially those self employed.

[R_P_A_S]

Please guys. NO RELIGION! ;)

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 06:25 pm

So what the hell would happen to this guy under socialism? would he be asked to join like the plumbers union and the state would dispatch them to their different jobs? and set their wage or what not?

Same as now, but he would pay a progressive tax.

I cannot see anyone stopping him being a plumber or making him work for other people.

And in return for the tax he would pay on his income he would get all the securities that socialism offers regular workers.

the state/community would probably foot the bill for fixing your plumbing.
ok so there for there would still be money.. if the plumber gotta get paid. right?
wouldn't the housing be provided by the state? so there for the state does not have the responsibility to fix shit when it breaks down?

I was thinking more like the state has utility workers. you know? like electricians, plumbers and gardeners and such... that it pays them a salary a week or whatever, and yes provides them with the essential needs that socialism offers. there for the state dispatches these people to fix things around town and what not.

nah? :unsure:

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Sorry RPAS :(

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

ok so there for there would still be money

Well, some kind of money. Could be credit type system which limits what can be exchanged using the credits.


wouldn't the housing be provided by the state? so there for the state does not have the responsibility to fix shit when it breaks down?

Yeah its all socially own and socially taken care of.



I was thinking more like the state has utility workers. you know? like electricians, plumbers and gardeners and such... that it pays them a salary a week or whatever, and yes provides them with the essential needs that socialism offers. there for the state dispatches these people to fix things around town and what not.

Could be done like that.

how things are done will likely be similar to how their done now while the level of development is similar to how developed capitalism.

thing's will change radically under communism in the future when the level of development is much much higher.

Personally, i think socialism is making things more democratic and the economy planned better than now.

[R_P_A_S]

Now, an other profession.. what I do. I record music, professionally. I went to college for it an all. so is not some lil' hobbie or "cool studio" at my house.

we get paid in 3 ways.

1. a client pays us for the services, cash or check. either we set up an hourly rate. or we set up a project price.

2. one bills the record label for example, I send Sony Music an invoice of my hours worked and my rate.(they usually take 6 months to pay <_< )

3. a recording studio has staff audio engineers and pays them an hourly rate.

how would i get paid under a socialism?

[Whitten]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 06:50 pm
Now, an other profession.. what I do. I record music, professionally. I went to college for it an all. so is not some lil&#39; hobbie or "cool studio" at my house.

we get paid in 3 ways.

1. a client pays us for the services, cash or check. either we set up an hourly rate. or we set up a project price.

2. one bills the record label for example, I send Sony Music an invoice of my hours worked and my rate.(they usually take 6 months to pay <_< )

3. a recording studio has staff audio engineers and pays them an hourly rate.

how would i get paid under a socialism?
I dont know much about your profession, but I would guess that it would be run as a cooperative, with "wages" decided upon by the workers, according to the coop&#39;s "income" subject to state regulations. Both individuals and the coop would be taxed appropriatly (if it is bringing in a significant surplus value), and may be able to recieve special state funding if it is not. The coop would trade is services in exchange for money, although the groups it trades with are likely to be the state, transactions mediated by the state, or with other coops or publicly owned/funded organisations.

Eventually its possible that the industry would be assimilated into the state public sector, in which case everyone who works there would recieve a wage paid by the state. It really depends how far along things are.

[Janus]

I was thinking more like the state has utility workers. you know? like electricians, plumbers and gardeners and such... that it pays them a salary a week or whatever, and yes provides them with the essential needs that socialism offers. there for the state dispatches these people to fix things around town and what not.
Possibly or they would simply form a co-op as they&#39;re no longer in competition with one another.


how would i get paid under a socialism?
Assuming that there&#39;s no longer a monetary/currenct system, you would probably be paid with some sort of labor voucher/credit system in which you receive credits equal to the work you did.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 10:20 pm

I was thinking more like the state has utility workers. you know? like electricians, plumbers and gardeners and such... that it pays them a salary a week or whatever, and yes provides them with the essential needs that socialism offers. there for the state dispatches these people to fix things around town and what not.
Possibly or they would simply form a co-op as they&#39;re no longer in competition with one another.


how would i get paid under a socialism?
Assuming that there&#39;s no longer a monetary/currenct system, you would probably be paid with some sort of labor voucher/credit system in which you receive credits equal to the work you did.
so. hmm... in socialism there wont be any money??? I though that was communism?

[Janus]

in socialism there wont be any money???
Some people envision that some sort of monetary system but since I was assuming you were familiar with this concept, I presented an alternative. However, money and wages will definitely be abolished in a communist society if it hasn&#39;t already been done so in a socialist one.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 06, 2007 12:07 am
Frequently Asked Questions (http://freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/faq.html#c)
i&#39;ve read that page before bro. and its cool and all whenever you have questions. but it sounds too much like flowers and bees... the way you guys explain it on there. and I want debate, i want different views and suggestions. not just what a web site thinks.

[*mac_capital*]

socialism doesn&#39;t happen overnight, there are stages of development. in the first stages there happens what i call true competion. true competion would be the state/town business (whether it be a plumber or farmer or carpenter or factory worker) competing with with a private business. then you have a competion between the socialist company and a private one. this will give the people a true choice, because the competion between the private and public would lead to greater efficiency. but remember everytime you give to the socialist company the proceeds are going not just to the worker but any profit goes to the municipality or state. the profit the municipality or state make is then spent on the workers to everyones benefit through services, road repair, healthcare, eduaction, lower taxes ect. while if you spend the money on a private company you are only making individuals wealthy, instead of the entire population. so really if you spend the money and decide to give it to the socialist company you are giving back to yourself because you will benefit from better roads healthcare ect. and to the community and everyone in the community benifits all at the same time. while if you give to the capitalist only a few benefit, (but they might be cheaper or specailized in a certain area)

really this competition is needed to keep prices down and quality up. but really it is a simple decision because under socialism you are helping alot of people while under capitalism you only help a few.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Where did you get such reformist notions?

Anyhow, to all of you here, I don&#39;t think a discussion of what things will be like in detail under EITHER socialism or communism is appropriate. I think the DOTP deserves more emphasis.

As for the reformist notion above, mac, I think you need to look more into nature of the global economy (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65105&st=0) (and into my signature); there is LESS competition due to economies of scale and the correlating concentration of capital.


because the competion between the private and public would lead to greater efficiency

I would argue that the concentration of capital and the resulting decrease in relative competition already results in greater efficiency. There are also natural monopolies to consider, like amongst telephone service providers.

Furthermore, I don&#39;t think that even a workers&#39; state can compete with or effectively manage a "company" that&#39;s operating a niche or local market - at least in the earlier part of the DOTP:

"To be sure we have here the gigantic industries (sugar factories and breweries), but as a general thing the little industry is still generally dominant. Here it is necessary to satisfy the individual needs of the market, and the small industry can do this better than the large. The number of productive plants is here large and would not ordinarily be capable of reduction as in the production of means of production. Here also production for the open market still rules. But because of the greater number of consumers this is much more difficult to supervise than is production for production. The number of operators’ agreements is fewer here. The organization of the production and circulation of all articles of consumption accordingly offers much greater difficulties than that of the means of production." (http://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1902/socrev/pt2-2.htm)

(To the Leninists amongst us, Kautsky said this before he turned "renegade")