The Nazis and DNA

[RedAnarchist]

I was just wondering, as we only really knew about genes and DNA after the Second World War, if we had known a few decades earlier, would this have weakened the twisted ideas of the Nazis or would they have just been as delusional as most fascists and nazis?

[Friedrich Nietzsche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 09:57 pm
I was just wondering, as we only really knew about genes and DNA after the Second World War, if we had known a few decades earlier, would this have weakened the twisted ideas of the Nazis or would they have just been as delusional as most fascists and nazis?
Actually, what we know of DNA has semi-strengthened the nazi movement(atleast in concept).

You could, in theory, breed a race of super-humans, with only blonde hair and blue eyes, and over time, you could make them super-genius 8ft wonders that can lift tanks over their heads...

It'd take you a few million years, but you *could* do it. Is it worth striving for? Nah. That'd make the entire population basic copies of each other. And....


Redheads > blondies.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Quite apart from the fact that cloning as a method of reproduction greatly reduces the gene pool every generation.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Friedrich [email protected] 03, 2007 04:09 pm
Actually, what we know of DNA has semi-strengthened the nazi movement(atleast in concept).
Nah. For example, we keep finding out how genetically similar different groups of people really are.

That kind of information is of some use in combatting racists, but their basic appeal is irrational anyway.

Now, there was some knowledge of genetics (though not DNA) before WWII. This did produce the "eugenics" movement of trying to improve humanity biologically, which was one of Nazis' propaganda themes.

But then again, racism, and the concept of biologically superior and inferior people, is a lot older than any concept of genetics.....

[Friedrich Nietzsche]

Originally posted by Severian+June 03, 2007 11:10 pm--> (Severian @ June 03, 2007 11:10 pm)
Friedrich [email protected] 03, 2007 04:09 pm
Actually, what we know of DNA has semi-strengthened the nazi movement(atleast in concept).
Nah. For example, we keep finding out how genetically similar different groups of people really are.

That kind of information is of some use in combatting racists, but their basic appeal is irrational anyway.

Now, there was some knowledge of genetics (though not DNA) before WWII. This did produce the "eugenics" movement of trying to improve humanity biologically, which was one of Nazis' propaganda themes.

But then again, racism, and the concept of biologically superior and inferior people, is a lot older than any concept of genetics..... [/b]
Ah yes, I forgot about the whole "Racial supremecy" thing. Well, short of that, the "Superman" concept is semi-sound.

[People's Councillor]

Not to mention that breeding a homogeneous species will lead to evolutionary flatlining, the inability to adapt, and extinction...

lol, Nazis.

[Friedrich Nietzsche]

Originally posted by People's [email protected] 04, 2007 02:36 am
Not to mention that breeding a homogeneous species will lead to evolutionary flatlining, the inability to adapt, and extinction...

lol, Nazis.
True again. Or, we could resort to straight genetic engineering...

<.<....

I WANT A NEKO*&#33;


*Neko = Catgirl

[Janus]

There was basic understanding of the principles of genetics during the Nazi era and of course this provided much of the basis for the eugenics movement. Now, had we had a much more advanced knowledge of genetics, such ideas would&#39;ve been discredited though the Nazis would&#39;ve also had access to much more advanced techniques for their programs.

[socialistfuture]

they had advanced techniques (why to u think the USA pinched some of their scientists afterwards - they also had austrian ones..etc). despite NAZIsm racism they did have a large group of people working on their projects of &#39;racial purity&#39; and trying out nietzche&#39;s &#39;superhuman&#39; ideas.

has there been a thread on national socialism and the environment and their science. ethically their scientists were very immoral; performing horrible tests on jewish subjects and so on. are there any books on nazism and the environment?

[People&#39;s Councillor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 09:33 pm
are there any books on nazism and the environment?
Probably. I have no idea what they are, though.

Incidentally, the Nazi movement was a failure to their own principles. They relied mainly on indoctrination (for example through the Hitler Youth) instead of breeding, to create Nazis, which puts the kibosh on their whole idea that racial hatred and racial struggle is inborn. They recognized the fact that ideology is a product of education, and thus undermined their own ideological tenets and accepted one of ours.

Nazis fail.

[socialistfuture]

not to mention he was austrian not german and the master of the master race didnt have blue eyes, blonde hair and is rumoured to be part jewish.

so much for the 1000 year reich, wierd that sum ppl still worship all that today

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 09:33 pm
they had advanced techniques (why to u think the USA pinched some of their scientists afterwards - they also had austrian ones..etc).
The scientists who were of some use for the USA, however, were those in the rocket field. I don&#39;t know of any nazi geneticist of any scientifical importance.


trying out nietzche&#39;s &#39;superhuman&#39; ideas.

Nietzsche &#39;superhuman ideas&#39; were not about race.

Luís Henrique

[People&#39;s Councillor]

"Gather round while I sing you of Wherner von Braun/A man whose allegience is ruled by expedience/Call him a Nazi he won&#39;t even frown/&#39;Nazi-schmatzi&#39; says Wherner von Braun"

Good song. Anyway...

[Oedipus Complex]

socialistfuture


despite NAZIsm racism they did have a large group of people working on their projects of &#39;racial purity&#39; and trying out nietzche&#39;s &#39;superhuman&#39; ideas.

Nietzsche&#39;s übermensch which I believe you are referring to, had nothing to do with race, but was completely distorted by the Nazi&#39;s largely due to Nietzsche&#39;s sister who distorted Nietzsche&#39;s works after Nietzsche went crazy and died. The übermensch however, is mainly about a psychological will to overcome things like slave morality.

[socialistfuture]

a lot of neo nazi&#39;s like him, im not saying its his fault. but some of his writing does head in that direction.

[Friedrich Nietzsche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 05:22 am
a lot of neo nazi&#39;s like him, im not saying its his fault. but some of his writing does head in that direction.
One should not read Nietzsche if one cannot grasp humor. His anti-semitism is mostly humorous, not to mention Nietzsche nigh-never mentioned genetics in his writings. The Ubermensch("Superman", though a more accurate translation would be "Overman") was a mental/psychological transformation. A "breaking away" of all of society&#39;s morals and ethics. Nietzsche wanted people to decide for themselves what was right and what was not.

[socialistfuture]

so he was quite into individualism, and anarchist type ideals?

[Idola Mentis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 10:23 am
so he was quite into individualism, and anarchist type ideals?
Could say that. But the pop science of the late 19th century drew different borders between biology and mind. A lot of people took lamarckism and social darwinism for granted. Fish don&#39;t notice the water.

Today, a lot of nazi distortions of genetics are in fact generally believed in the same way. People usually don&#39;t allow themselves to follow their pop genetics to the nazi conclusion, for obvious reasons. But if you read the arguments of the neo-nazis, you will find that they do just that. Their beliefs about genetics are based on "common knowledge" about how genetics works; the rest is a matter of deduction sprinkled with a bit of wishful-thinking-dust.

One thing the studies of Nietzsche&#39;s time had going for it was their awareness of the close relationship between inheritance and social environment. They recognized that inheritance (cultural or genetic, they didn&#39;t know there was a difference) shapes social conditions, and social conditions shape inheritance. But their methods for exploring this intricate relitionship were inadequate, to say it kindly. So they generally ended up confirming a bunch of bourgoisie prejudices. Modern genetics does just the same, but tends to focus on genetics only, leaving out the interesting stuff. Makes it even easier for the nazis to use the old episteme to claim whatever they want, since there isn&#39;t any scientific data (apart from the entire fucking real world outside their little cellars) to prove them wrong.

Nietzsche doesn&#39;t exactly use the language of this prejudice industry, but his writings were absorbed and reinterpreted into it almost immediately. Was he into individualism? Yes - as far as that was possible in his time. He believed in the genius and hero myths. But that kind of individualism doesn&#39;t really mix with anarchism. He certainly wasn&#39;t an anarchist by the definition of his time? He was taken up by the bohemians, cultured radicals and revolutionaries as their movement met the wall, but really belonged to their successor generation.

[Friedrich Nietzsche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 09:23 am
so he was quite into individualism, and anarchist type ideals?
To further elaborate on Idola&#39;s post...

Indvidualism? Yes, very much so. Anarchism? Eh, not quite. Nietzsche didn&#39;t delve very far into politics, but he did believe that the government should be a "Government of the Strong". Those who are mentally supperior, or have supperior "wills"(aka, his way of saying "Those who are truly committed). It&#39;s sort of a quasi-aristocracy, albeit, far more thought-through and fair.

He playfully attacked Anarchists...example(it&#39;s not worded the same way, I&#39;m going from memory. Sounds much better the way he said it):


Born out of petty, weakness and great spite...the christian and the anarchist have the same origin.

[Janus]

they had advanced techniques (why to u think the USA pinched some of their scientists afterwards - they also had austrian ones..etc
Those were aerospace scientists not geneticists.