Red partizan wants to be taught a lesson

[Revolution Hero]

Red partisan:”So what you are trying to say is that the USSR has been a success and should be followed in example?...Why did the whole soviet system(including each of the puppet satelite states) collapse?...because of their nationalistic views towards progress.they were all there to support the USSR,"for the good of the motherland"(licking soviet asses in order to receive generous aid and support).all they cared about was of the prosperity of there own countries and national movements.if there was absolute solidarity in Marxist thought then they would have all united under one banner or rather one entity for a worker has no country and no race(we are all humans for the matter)...that was not the case.The post Lenin USSR thought in terms of influence and dominance over other countries and only funded movements under the condition that they took there orders and were controlled directly from the Kremlin.This is no form of enlightened Marxism but a form of imperialism.I mean is it possible for different marxist states to enter into confrontation when they are fighting for the same goal ,the ultimate victory of socialism followed by communism then by anarchy?For in a perfect marxist society there should be no national borders.A united army and a united marxist leadership (consisting of all nationalities) should have been created in order to fight the common enemies of the world.Capitalism,poverty and injustice.The Stalinist(isolationist) formula on internationalism should be discarded and not be repeated for our revolution would have be doomed from the start eg..USSR”

Quote:” Why did the whole soviet system(including each of the puppet satelite states) collapse?...because of their nationalistic views towards progress.they were all there to support the USSR,"for the good of the motherland"(licking soviet asses in order to receive generous aid and support).”

You drew a wrong conclusion.
Soviet Union was the center of world socialistic system. USSR supported revolutionary movements all over the world; it provided revolutionary states with economical and military aid and served an example for others to follow. Moreover USSR supported all existed Marxist- Leninist parties. Obviously, your statement about “nationalistic views towards progress” is pure blatant lie.
You ask why did USSR collapse? It collapsed because of the counter- revolution. Moreover USSR was disintegrated against the will of Soviet people. It is apparent that with the collapse of world super power the system of the socialistic states collapsed too.

Quote:” :” all they cared about was of the prosperity of there own countries and national movements.”

They cared about the prosperity of the whole socialistic system. You should know that the economical and cultural ties closely connected socialistic countries with one another.

Quote from red partisan:” if there was absolute solidarity in Marxist thought then they would have all united under one banner or rather one entity for a worker has no country and no race(we are all humans for the matter)...”

They were not rival, therefore were united.

Quote from red partisan:” The post Lenin USSR thought in terms of influence and dominance over other countries and only funded movements under the condition that they took there orders and were controlled directly from the Kremlin.”

USSR supported revolutionary movements, according to the principle of proletarian internationalism. Socialistic states were not controlled from the Kremlin. Can you name just one historical example, which will prove your ignorant statement?
“under the condition that they took there orders”
There were no conditions, countries decided for themselves, which way to move; they chose socialism. Do you have anything against socialism?

Quote from red partisan:” This is no form of enlightened Marxism but a form of imperialism”

I don’t see exploitation and oppression, but I see aid and economical relations based on mutual benefits. It is not imperialism, but proletarian internationalism.

Quote from red partisan:” I mean is it possible for different marxist states to enter into confrontation when they are fighting for the same goal”

What confrontation do you mean?

Quote from red partisan:” the ultimate victory of socialism followed by communism then by anarchy?”

Lol, go and learn theory boy. Don’t you know that communism is the last stage of social- economical development?

Quote from red partisan:” For in a perfect marxist society there should be no national borders.”

That is for communism.

Quote from red partisan:” The Stalinist(isolationist) formula on internationalism should be discarded and not be repeated for our revolution would have be doomed from the start eg..USSR”

Is the conception of “Stalinist formula on internationalism” is your personal invention? I see that you made some progress in revisionist direction…
The international policy of isolation has nothing in common with USSR’s external policy. History is the best proof for this. What I advise you to do is to learn history…

[RED PARTIZAN]

no rivalries ehh??
here is just a number of countries USSR had confronted...Yugoslavia (straight after WW2),Sino-Soviet stand-off(ooof),Czechoslovakia,the Cuban missile crisis where Fidel hadn't even been notified about the use and movement of the warheads till the very end and the USSR negotiated behind their backs for a peaceful solution with the US in order to protect their own asses from the US use of Turkey ...and i'am sure there are more ...And wasn't it the USSR that repressed Cuban guerilla expanse into Latin America(telling them to live in peaceful co-existence).Why did Che loose out in Bolivia ,the Communist Party of Bolivia didn't help him because of Soviet fears that Che was a Maoist hence supported China in the Sino- Soviet stand-off...How sad!!!!
And if i remember correctly did the USSR help out in Vietnam, or in Africa ...don't think so... the only time they helped or supported revolutions was if a)the rebels were winning. b)they could gain something (i.e proximity to the US)... And beleive it or not the USSR(Stalinist) has failed in every sense of the word.They left a deep scar all over Eastern Europe and Russia.In peoples minds when they think of communism they think of Stalinist methods of concentration camps ,political killings(the murder of Bolsheviks),illegite trials and leader worshipping.We should learn from there mistakes.
"Don’t you know that communism is the last stage of social- economical development? " hah...i won't even answer that.
"What’s your problem red partisan? Can’t you read or can’t you comprehend?
That is not what I said and not what I meant, though I don’t agree with your rotten post, that was not what I meant.
I proved that Trotskyism is incompatible with Marxism- Leninism. And if you say that socialism in one country is impossible then you directly attack Lenin, just admit it."
"Do you have anything against socialism?" ...how dare you even ask such a question...who the fuck do u think u are ?Acting all big-headed and all knowing...stop your haughty nonsense and talk to me like a man with some dignity and composure...We all beleive in the same cause,instead of bullying people around you should engage in a proper conversation and try and make your point.
It's a shame inbreds like u are what represents our Communist youth.If you don't change your tone,i'll just ignore your illiterate ass.

[bolshevik1917]

Red partizan wants to be taught a lesson, a lesson about 'Revolution Hero' the angry 12 year old Stalinist who likes switch on his computer and become the 'man of steel'

I have seen nothing wrong with Red Partizans posts RH, in fact they all look pretty Marxist to me (I dont expect you to know what Marxism is however).

If you wanted to debate with Red Partizan though why not just bring up a topic that both of you would disagree with (eg - socialism in one country, was the USSR socialist etc)

Instead you used your usual ignorant methods 'HE MUST BE TAUGHT A LESSON - MY WORD IS GOSPEL - BOW DOWN BEFORE ME'

Do you realise how funny you look? Notice how everyone seems to ignore you, no one really likes you do they?

So I wont be surprised if Red Partizan chooses to ignore you (join the que) but should he choose to debate with you he will have my 100% backing as a fellow Marxist in the fight against stalinism.

[bolshevik1917]

One more thing before you start ranting at me RH..

You say that the 'Stalinist formula on internationalism' is the 'personal invention' of RP.

However, in this evidence (that you continualy choose to ignore) we can see that Stalin himself was the inventor of this theory..

Howard: Does this statement of yours mean that the Soviet Union has to any degree abandoned its plans and intentions to bring about a world revolution?

Stalin: We never had any such plans or intentions.

Howard: You appreciate, no doubt Mr Stalin, that much of the world has long entertained a different impression?

Stalin: This is the product of misunderstanding.

Howard: A tragic misunderstanding?

Stalin: No, comic. Or perhaps tragi-comic

Roy Howard and Stalin. (Roy Howard-Stalin interview, March/April, Communist International, 1936.)

[Revolution Hero]

Quote from red partizan:” here is just a number of countries USSR had confronted...Yugoslavia (straight after WW2),Sino-Soviet stand-off(ooof),Czechoslovakia,the Cuban missile crisis”

Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia examples are examples of temporal confrontation. USSR achieved friendly relations with these two countries later.
Cuban missile crisis is the best picture of confrontation between socialism and capitalism, not between two socialistic states. Actually, Fidel himself wanted missiles and asked USSR for them. Cuban missile crises didn’t worsen Cuban-soviet relations, in contrary it made them even stronger.

Quote from red partisan:” And wasn't it the USSR that repressed Cuban guerilla expanse into Latin America(telling them to live in peaceful co-existence).”

Lenin created the principle of peaceful coexistence. So, if you don’t like its essence, then you must be anti-leninist.

Quote from red partisan:” Why did Che loose out in Bolivia ,the Communist Party of Bolivia didn't help him because of Soviet fears that Che was a Maoist hence supported China in the Sino- Soviet stand-off...”

Firstly, don’t try to connect the Communist Party of Bolivia with Soviet Union.
Secondly, Che exported revolution to Bolivia. USSR, being Marxist- Leninist state, never supported exported revolutions. If you don’t know, that was Lenin who pointed out that export of the revolution was not the strategy of true Marxists. Revolution has to grow inside the definite country; it must not be brought by force from the outside. I respect Che, but I also have to admit that Che was not theoretically educated enough, if he had been then he would not have moved to Bolivia.

Quote from red partisan:” And if i remember correctly did the USSR help out in Vietnam, or in Africa ...don't think so...”

You don’t “remember correctly”.
Only thanks to the Soviet military aid, usa imperialist army was kicked out of Viet Nam. This was the great victory taken by socialism. Imperialism was defeated.
The greatest example of Soviet aid in Africa was the Soviet military aid to the movement of national-liberation in Angola. Again imperialism was defeated. There were also much more confrontation between imperialism and socialism siding national- liberation movement in Africa.

Quote from red partisan:” the only time they helped or supported revolutions was if a)the rebels were winning.”

The rebels were winning only after they had received support from USSR.
USSR supported national- liberation revolutionary movement in any country of the globe, unlike China (true isolationist state!).
USSR supported all started revolutions, but it didn’t force the revolution and didn’t try to bring it from the outside.

Quote from red partisan:” b)they could gain something (i.e proximity to the US)...”

USSR fought for the great ideal, supporting revolutions. No doubt that the country of victorious revolution gained much more, than Soviet Union did.

Quote from red partisan:” And beleive it or not the USSR(Stalinist) has failed in every sense of the word.”

You seem to be very happy of this fact.
But the ultimate fact, the one which should be never forgotten, is that USSR was much stronger than USA; socialism was superior to capitalism, the history of struggle against imperialism is the perfect proof to this!

Quote from red partisan:” They left a deep scar all over Eastern Europe and Russia.In peoples minds when they think of communism they think of Stalinist methods of concentration camps ,political killings(the murder of Bolsheviks),illegite trials and leader worshipping.We should learn from there mistakes.”

I would not have talked about Russia, being in your place. Russian people respect Stalin, they are not brainwashed like westerners are.

Quote from red partisan:” We all beleive in the same cause,instead of bullying people around you should engage in a proper conversation and try and make your point.”

I made my point.


Quote from bolshevik1917:” a lesson about 'Revolution Hero' the angry 12 year old Stalinist who likes switch on his computer and become the 'man of steel'”

Bad guess!
Have you seen me to talk about my age? I am probably even older than you, man.

Quote from bolshevik1917:” I have seen nothing wrong with Red Partizans posts RH, in fact they all look pretty Marxist to me”

Surprisingly, they all look pretty much trotskyist to me.

Quote from bolshevik1917:” Do you realise how funny you look? Notice how everyone seems to ignore you, no one really likes you do they?”

This is your personal opinion. Do you know the difference between subjective and objective?

Quote from bolshevik1917:” but should he choose to debate with you he will have my 100% backing as a fellow Marxist in the fight against stalinism.”

Would you stop calling Marxist-Leninist teaching Stalinism?
I’ll be glad to debate with both of you. I am used to fight one on two.

Quote from bolshevik1917:” However, in this evidence (that you continualy choose to ignore) we can see that Stalin himself was the inventor of this theory..”

I don’t see any evidence of Stalin being an inventor of this theory.

Quote from bolshevik1917:” Stalin: We never had any such plans or intentions.”

That’s right. World revolution happens by itself; it is not something, which has to be brought about. Export of revolution is incompatible with Marxism-Leninism.

[Revolution Hero]

Passages from the materials of 24th Congress of CPSU (1971):

“Soviet Union is a peace-loving state, this is determined by the character of our socialistic system. The aims of soviet external policy, as were formulated by the 23rd Congress of CPSU, consist in the insurance of favorable international conditions of building socialism and communism together with other socialistic countries; strengthening the unity, solidarity, friendship and brotherhood of socialistic countries; supporting national- liberation movements and realizing collaboration with young developing states; consistent defense of the principle of peaceful coexistence of states with different social systems, decisive repulse to the powers of aggressive imperialism, prevention of the mankind from new world war.”

“CPSU attaches special importance to the development of collaboration with communist parties of brotherly countries. This kind of collaboration gave us an opportunity to use the experience of one another, to collectively develop the principles of building of socialism and communism, to find the most rational forms of economical relations, to collectively determine the common line in the questions of external policy, to exchange the opinions about the work in the spheres of ideology and culture.”

“Soviet Union and other socialistic countries actively and consistently support the struggle of people of Vietnam and other countries of Indochina against the imperialistic interventionists. The steps taken by the socialistic countries in the Near East became one of the decisive factors, which led to the failure of imperialistic plans of overthrowing progressive regimes in Arabian countries.”

“Soviet Union and brotherly countries in every possible way help each other in the development of national economies. More than 300 industrial and agricultural objects were built or reconstructed with our technical assistance in the socialistic countries during the last five years. We supply our friends with the industrial production of different kinds on the mutually beneficial conditions. Soviet Union satisfies the needs of the Council for Mutual Economic Aid (CMEA), Cuba, Democratic Republic of Vietnam and Democratic Republic of Korea on 70% and more.
In its turn our national economy received equipment for 54 chemical factories from the countries of CMEA. More than 38% of marine- waterway tonnage, which supplemented our fleet during the period of last 5 years, is made on the shipyards of our friends. Countries of CMEA participate with their investments in the development of raw material and fuel branches of soviet economy, in the increasing of production of metal, fertilizers and cellulose. We also import consumer goods from brotherly countries.”

“The relations of socialistic solidarity and strong friendship connect our party and soviet people with the Party of working people of Vietnam and Democratic Republic of Vietnam. Following the precepts of great patriot and revolutionist Ho Chi Minh, Vietnamese people hold high the banner of socialism in their hands and fearlessly oppose imperialistic aggressors. Democratic Republic of Vietnam can rely on the brotherly support of Soviet Union in its military struggle and peaceful labor.
Soviet Union strengthened the collaboration with Republic of Cuba and Communist Party of Cuba. As the result of the mutual efforts the significant successes in the development of soviet- Cuban relations were achieved. People of Soviet Union and Cuba are comrades in their common struggle; their friendship is firm.
For the last years, the relations with Democratic People’s Republic of Korea have widened; we are convinced that these relations answer the interests of both countries. Soviet Union supported and supports the suggestions of DPRK government about peaceful democratic unification of the country and the demands of Korean people about the withdrawal of American army out from South of Korea.”

[ravengod]

guys sorrry but i dont have the patience to read
try being brief please

[kylie]

fuyk

[Revolution Hero]

I hope that red partizan really learned something.

Does anybody have something to say?

[bolshevik1917]

Yes, moi.

Although I must stress Malte will have us both hung for starting 'this topic' in yet another thread.

Lenin regarded the communist international as one of the (if not THE) most importaint tools of the struggle. Obviously this was correct, as you cannot achieve your goal in just one country.

Stalin was not interested in the communist international at all, because he was a beurocrat. Revolution in the west (or anywhere else) might have robbed Stalin and his clique of their priveladges, that is why he worked AGAINST the international movement.

[Revolution Hero]

Though the name of the thread doesn’t specify the topic of discussion, it should be clear that we debate on USSR’s internationalism- one side claimed that USSR was imperialistic state, while the other side perfectly proved this statement to be false.
Considering this, it seems obvious that the post of bolshevik1917 is not connected with the topic of discussion.

Bolshevik1917, you came up with the same old talks; it seems that you will never learn and will never surrender.
You said:” Lenin regarded the communist international as one of the (if not THE) most importaint tools of the struggle.”

True, so do I. Soviet Union also considered international revolutionary process one of the most important factor in the development of world socialistic system.

Quote:” you cannot achieve your goal in just one country.”

Working masses of the definite country can and must achieve socialism in their country. Read “Lenin against Trotsky” thread one more time, especially try to be more attentive when reading the quotes, which shows Lenin’s confidence in the victory of socialism in Russia.

Quote:” Stalin was not interested in the communist international at all, because he was a beurocrat.”

Trotsky was also bureaucrat. So, what’s your point?

And again, you change the topic of discussion. USSR supported world revolution. Why trotskyists are not happy of this fact? Maybe, because trotskyists are not true communists.

BTW, bolshevik1917, what do you think about the principle of peaceful coexistence and export of the revolution?