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The Author
1st June 2007, 03:57
Our system of economy exhibits a certain diversity, it contains no less than five forms. There is one form of economy that is almost


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on the level of natural economy: the peasant farms that produce very little for the market. There is a second form of economy, the commodity production form -- the peasant farms which produce chiefly for the market. There is a third form of economy -- private capitalism, which is not dead, which has revived and will continue to revive, within certain limits, as long as we have NEP. The fourth form of economy is state capitalism, i.e., the capitalism that we have permitted and are able to control and restrict in the way the proletarian state wishes. Lastly, there is the fifth form -- socialist industry, i.e., our state industry, in which production does not involve two antagonistic classes -- the proletariat and the bourgeoisie -- but only one class -- the proletariat.
I should like to say a word or two about these five forms of economy, because otherwise it will be difficult to understand the group of figures I intend to quote and the trend that is observed in the development of our industry; the more so that Lenin already dealt in considerable detail with these five forms of economy in our social system[57] and taught us to take the struggle among these forms into account in our work of construction.
I should like to say a word or two about state capitalism and about state industry, the latter being of a socialist type, in order to clear up the misunderstandings and confusion that have arisen in the Party around this question.
Would it be right to call our state industry, state-capitalist industry? No. Why? Because under the dictatorship of the proletariat, state capitalism is a form of organisation of production involving two classes: an exploiting class which owns the means of


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production, and an exploited class which does not own the means of production. No matter what special form state capitalism may assume, it must nevertheless remain capitalist in its nature. When Ilyich analysed state capitalism, he had in mind primarily concessions. Let us take concessions and see whether two classes are involved in them. Yes, they are. The class of capitalists, i.e., the concessionaires, who exploit and temporarily own the means of production, and the class of proletarians, whom the concessionaire exploits. That we have no elements of socialism here is evident if only from the fact that nobody would dare turn up at a concession enterprise to start a campaign to increase productivity of labour; for everybody knows that a concession enterprise is not a socialist enterprise, but one alien to socialism.
Let us take another type of enterprise -- state enterprises. Are they state-capitalist enterprises? No, they are not. Why? Because they involve not two classes, but one class, the working class, which through its state owns the instruments and means of production and which is not exploited; for the maximum amount of what is produced in these enterprises over and above wages is used for the further expansion of industry, i.e., for the improvement of the conditions of the working class as a whole.
It may be said that, after all, this is not complete socialism, bearing in mind the survivals of bureaucracy persisting in the managing bodies of our enterprises. That is true, but it does not contradict the fact that state industry belongs to the socialist type of production. There are two types of production: the capitalist,


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including the state-capitalist, type, where there are two classes, where production is carried on for the profit of the capitalist; and there is the other type, the socialist type of production, where there is no exploitation, where the means of production belong to the working class, and where the enterprises are run not for the profit of an alien class, but for the expansion of industry in the interests of the workers as a whole. That is just what Lenin said, that our state enterprises are enterprises of a consistently socialist type.
Here an analogy with our state could be drawn. Our state, too, is not called a bourgeois state, for, according to Lenin, it is a new type of state, the proletarian type of state. Why? Because our state apparatus does not function for the purpose of oppressing the working class, as is the case with all bourgeois states without exception, but for the purpose of emancipating the working class from the oppression of the bourgeoisie. That is why our state is a proletarian type of state, although any amount of trash and survivals of the past can be found in the state apparatus. Lenin, who proclaimed our Soviet system a proletarian type of state, castigated it for its bureaucratic survivals more strongly than anybody else. Nevertheless, he asserted all the time that our state is a new proletarian type of state. A distinction must be drawn between the type of state and the heritage and survivals still persisting in the system and apparatus of the state. It is equally imperative to draw a distinction between the bureaucratic survivals in state enterprises and the type of structure of industry that we call the socialist type. It is wrong to say that because our economic bodies, or our trusts, suffer


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from mistakes, bureaucracy, and so forth, our state industry is not socialist. It is wrong to say that. If that were true, our state, which is of the proletarian type, would also not be proletarian. I can name quite a number of bourgeois apparatuses that function better and more economically than our proletarian state apparatus; but that does not mean that our state apparatus is not proletarian, that our type of state apparatus is not superior to the bourgeois type. Why? Because, although that bourgeois apparatus functions better, it functions for the capitalist, whereas our proletarian state apparatus, even if it does fumble sometimes, after all functions for the proletariat and against the bourgeoisie.
That fundamental difference must not be forgotten.
The same must be said about state industry. We must not, because of the defects and survivals of bureaucracy that are to be found in the managing bodies of our state enterprises, and which will exist for some time yet, we must not, because of those survivals and defects, forget that, in their nature, our enterprises are socialist enterprises. At the Ford plants, for example, which function efficiently, there may be less thieving, nevertheless they function for the benefit of Ford, a capitalist, whereas our enterprises, where thieving takes place sometimes, and things do not always run smoothly, nevertheless function for the benefit of the proletariat.
That fundamental difference must not be forgotten.




7. CONCERNING STATE CAPITALISM

Connected with this question is Bukharin's mistake. What was his mistake? On what questions did Lenin dispute with Bukharin? Lenin maintained that the category of state capitalism is compatible with the system of the proletarian dictatorship. Bukharin denied this. He was of the opinion, and with him the "Left" Communists, too, including Safarov, were of the opinion that the category of state capitalism is incompatible with the system of the proletarian dictatorship. Lenin was right, of course. Bukharin was wrong. He admitted this mistake of his. Such was Bukharin's mistake. But that was in the past. If now, in 1925, in May, he repeats that he disagrees with Lenin on the question of state capitalism, I suppose it is simply a misunderstanding. Either he ought frankly to withdraw that statement, or it is a misunderstanding; for the line he is now defending on the question of the nature of state industry is Lenin's line. Lenin did not come to Bukharin; on the contrary, Bukharin came to Lenin. And precisely for that reason we back Bukharin. (Applause.)
The chief mistake of Kamenev and Zinoviev is that they regard the question of state capitalism scholastically, undialectically, divorced from the historical situation. Such an approach to the question is abhorrent to the whole spirit of Leninism. How did Lenin present the question? In 1921, Lenin, knowing that our industry was under-developed and that the peasantry needed goods, knowing that it (industry) could not be raised at one stroke, that the workers, because of certain circumstances, were engaged not so much in industry as in making


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cigarette lighters -- in that situation Lenin was of the opinion that the best of all possibilities was to invite foreign capital, to set industry on its feet with its aid, to introduce state capitalism in this way and through it to establish a bond between Soviet power and the countryside. That line was absolutely correct at that time, because we had no other means then of satisfying the peasantry; for our industry was in a bad way, transport was at a standstill, or almost at a standstill, there was a lack, a shortage, of fuel. Did Lenin at that time consider state capitalism permissible and desirable as the predominant form in our economy? Yes, he did. But that was then, in 1921. What about now? Can we now say that we have no industry, that transport is at a standstill, that there is no fuel, etc.? No, we cannot. Can it be denied that our industry and trade are already establishing a bond between industry (our industry) and peasant economy directly, by their own efforts? No, it cannot. Can it be denied that in the sphere of industry "state capitalism" and "socialism" have already exchanged roles, for socialist industry has become predominant and the relative importance of concessions and leases (the former have 50,000 workers and the latter 35,000) is minute? No, it cannot. Already in 1922 Lenin said that nothing had come of concessions and leases in our country.
What follows from this? From this it follows that since 1921, the situation in our country has undergone a substantial change, that in this period our socialist industry and Soviet and co-operative trade have already succeeded in becoming the predominant force, that we have already learned to establish a bond between town and country by our own efforts, that the most striking


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forms of state capitalism -- concessions and leases -- have not developed to any extent during this period, that to speak now, in 1925, of state capitalism as the predominant form in our economy, means distorting the socialist nature of our state industry, means failing to understand the whole difference between the past and the present situation, means approaching the question of state capitalism not dialectically, but scholastically, metaphysically.
Would you care to hear Sokolnikov? In his speech he said:

"Our foreign trade is being conducted as a state-capitalist enterprise. . . . Our internal trading companies are also state-capitalist enterprises. And I must say, comrades, that the State Bank is just as much a state-capitalist enterprise. What about our monetary system? Our monetary system is based on the fact that in Soviet economy, under the conditions in which socialism is being built, there has been adopted a monetary system which is permeated with the principles of capitalist economy."

That is what Sokolnikov says.
Soon he will go to the length of declaring that the People's Commissariat of Finance is also state capitalism. Up to now I thought, and we all thought, that the State Bank is part of the state apparatus. Up to now I thought, and we all thought, that our People's Commissariat of Foreign Trade, not counting the state-capitalist institutions that encompass it, is part of the state apparatus, that our state apparatus is the apparatus of a proletarian type of state. We all thought so up to now, for the proletarian state is the sole master of these institutions. But now, according to Sokolnikov, it turns out that these institutions, which are part of our state apparatus, are


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state-capitalist institutions. Perhaps our Soviet apparatus is also state capitalism and not a proletarian type of state, as Lenin declared it to be? Why not? Does not our Soviet apparatus utilise a "monetary system which is permeated with the principles of capitalist economy?" Such is the nonsense a man can talk himself into.
Permit me first of all to quote Lenin's opinion on the nature and significance of the State Bank. I should like, comrades, to refer to a passage from a book written by Lenin in 1917. I have in mind the pamphlet: Can the Bolsheviks Retain State Power? in which Lenin still held the viewpoint of control of industry (and not nationalisation) and, notwithstanding that, regarded the State Bank in the hands of the proletarian state as being nine-tenths a socialist apparatus. This is what he wrote about the State Bank:

"The big banks are the 'state apparatus' we need for bringing about socialism, and which we take ready-made from capitalism; our task here is merely to lop off what capitalistically distorts this excellent apparatus, to make it still bigger, still more democratic, still more all-embracing. Quantity will be transformed into quality. A single State Bank, the biggest of the biggest, with branches in every volost, in every factory, will already be nine-tenths of the socialist apparatus. That will be nation-wide book-keeping, nation-wide accounting of the production and distribution of goods, that will be, so to speak, something in the nature of the skeleton of socialist society" (see Vol. XXI, p. 260).

Compare these words of Lenin's with Sokolnikov's speech and you will understand what Sokolnikov is slipping into. I shall not be surprised if he declares the People s Commissariat of Finance to be state capitalism.


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What is the point here? Why does Sokolnikov fall into such errors?
The point is that Sokolnikov fails to understand the dual nature of NEP, the dual nature of trade under the present conditions of the struggle between the socialist elements and the capitalist elements; he fails to understand the dialectics of development in the conditions of the proletarian dictatorship, in the conditions of the transition period, in which the methods and weapons of the bourgeoisie are utilised by the socialist elements for the purpose of overcoming and eliminating the capitalist elements. The point is not at all that trade and the monetary system are methods of "capitalist economy." The point is that in fighting the capitalist elements, the socialist elements of our economy master these methods and weapons of the bourgeoisie for the purpose of overcoming the capitalist elements, that they successfully use them against capitalism, successfully use them for the purpose of building the socialist foundation of our economy. Hence, the point is that, thanks to the dialectics of our development, the functions and purpose of those instruments of the bourgeoisie change in principle, fundamentally; they change in favour of socialism to the detriment of capitalism. Sokolnikov's mistake lies in his failure to understand all the complexity and contradictory nature of the processes that are taking place in our economy.
Permit me now to refer to Lenin on the question of the historical character of state capitalism, to quote a passage on the question as to when and why he proposed state capitalism as the chief form, as to what induced him to do that, and as to precisely under what concrete conditions he proposed it. (A voice : "Please do!")


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"We cannot under any circumstances forget what we very often observe, namely, the socialist attitude of the workers in factories belonging to the state, where they themselves collect fuel raw materials and produce, or when the workers try properly to distribute the products of industry among the peasantry and to deliver them by means of the transport system. That is socialism. But side by side with it there is small economy, which very often exists independently of it. Why can it exist independently of it? Because large-scale industry has not been restored, because the socialist factories can receive only one-tenth, perhaps, of what they should receive; and in so far as they do not receive what they should, small economy remains independent of the socialist factories. The incredible state of ruin of the country, and the shortage of fuel, raw materials and transport facilities, lead to small production existing separately from socialism. And I say: Under these circumstances, what is state capitalism? It will mean the amalgamation of small production. Capital amalgamates small production, capital grows out of small production. It is no use closing our eyes to this fact. Of course, freedom of trade means the growth of capitalism ; one cannot get away from it. And whoever thinks of getting away from it and brushing it aside is only consoling himself with words. If small economy exists, if there is freedom of exchange, capitalism will appear. But has this capitalism any terrors for us if we hold the factories, works, transport and foreign trade in our hands ? And so I said then, and will say now, and I think it is incontrovertible, that this capitalism has no terrors for us. Concessions are capitalism of that kind" (see Vol. XXVI, p. 306).[1]

That is how Lenin approached the question of state capitalism.
In 1921, when we had scarcely any industry of our own, when there was a shortage of raw materials, and transport was at a standstill, Lenin proposed state capitalism as a means by which he thought of linking peasant economy with industry. And that was correct. But does
* All italics mine. -- J. St.
[1] Lenin, Report on the Tax in Kind Delivered at a Meeting of Secretaries and Responsible Representatives of R.C.P.(B.) Cells of Moscow and Moscow Gubernia. April 9, 1921.


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that mean that Lenin regarded this line as desirable under all circumstances? Of course not. He was willing to establish the bond through the medium of state capitalism because we had no developed socialist industry. But now? Can it be said that we have no developed state industry now? Of course not. Development proceeded along a different channel, concessions scarcely took root, state industry grew, state trade grew, the co-operatives grew, and the bond between town and country began to be established through socialist industry. We found ourselves in a better position than we had expected. How can one, after this, say that state capitalism is the chief form of managing our economy?
The trouble with the opposition is that it refuses to understand these simple things.

An interesting, Marxist-Leninist point of view on the theory of "State Capitalism."

Full 14th Congress Report can be found here (http://www.marx2mao.com/Stalin/FC25.html#p4s7). I've only quoted the relevant passages.

Rawthentic
1st June 2007, 03:58
Still huh?

Even after ComradeRed pawned you?

It is correct to say that historical stages cannot be skipped and Lenin said that state-capitalism could be used as a means of transition. He called it "state-capitalism under worker's rule." This type of state-capitalism was strictly transitory and would gradually be for the proletarians to train in self-organization and pave the way for socialism. But without this nature, it is only obvious that the working class could not maintain its power in a capitalist system and would eventually create a new bourgeoisie.
Nationalizing the means of production only creates a state capitalist structure, but with worker's consciously active, is a forward path to socialist development and the throwing off of the managerial class' yoke.

The problem is, if the Bolshevik Revolution created a revolutionary - democratic dictatorship, as I believe they did, it seems as if it moved backwards.

Stalinist Russia was not in this path, because the proletariat did not control the means of production and the Soviets held no formal power. ComradeRed has provided the statistics to this which you conveniently ignored.

The Author
1st June 2007, 04:00
Not really. I never got a decent explanation on State Capitalism, or how the USSR was capitalist. I kept referring to "Gotha Programme" and "On Authority," but ignore it the state-capitalist advocates did...

ComradeRed
1st June 2007, 04:09
Yes, let us blindly follow what Stalin has to say about the "dictatorship of the proletariat" and state capitalism in the USSR...and likewise blindly believe what George Bush has to say about "Democracy in Iraq"! :lol:

The ruling classes never lie about the conditions of their society...ever!

And yet this is supposed to be the concrete evidence that the USSR was socialist? A propaganda piece by the ruler of the USSR?

Hey hey, guess what, capitalism is just and egalitarian using the very same reasoning.

The very reasoning behind the justifications of the USSR as "socialist" justifies capitalism as "egalitarian" (as bourgeois economists would lead you to believe).


Originally posted by CriticizeEverythingAlways+--> (CriticizeEverythingAlways)I kept referring to "Gotha Programme" and "On Authority," but ignore it the state-capitalists did...[/b] You mean how you ignored what Marx was talking about and immediately jumped to false conclusions with Marx's Critique of the Gotha Programme?

Or how you ignored Engels' on the vanguard?

Brilliant defense though, "I'm right because I quoted two texts, the end." :lol:


Voz
ComradeRed has provided the statistics to this which you conveniently ignored. It's the only way that one could justify the USSR as socialist, by ignoring empiricism I mean.

The Author
1st June 2007, 04:46
Nationalizing the means of production only creates a state capitalist structure, but with worker's consciously active, is a forward path to socialist development and the throwing off of the managerial class' yoke.

What the Trotskyites have said on "deformed workers' states" and what Stalin said on bureaucracy, sounds a little bit more plausible than the theory of state capitalism. I don't see how there was wage-slavery, how the workers were exploited supposedly with no benefits, how life was grim, how there was no workers' control. I see the problems of bureaucracy, I see the problems of the capitalist encirclement, and I see the problems of how to develop large-scale production from a backwards country and the contradictions between city and country. But I do not see any evidence as to how the working class got no benefits from this socialist society except a "few crumbs," and how the managers were "bourgeois." Marx said (despite what a certain Ultra-Leftist will tell you) that there would be some of the survivals of capitalism in socialist society, or communism the first phase. There would be an authoritarian structure, especially considering the nature of large-scale production and the requirements for a division of skilled personnel handling the different components of machinery, production, distribution, and administration as Engels mentioned. As Stalin said, and I think this raises up a good point, "Our state, too, is not called a bourgeois state, for, according to Lenin, it is a new type of state, the proletarian type of state. Why? Because our state apparatus does not function for the purpose of oppressing the working class, as is the case with all bourgeois states without exception, but for the purpose of emancipating the working class from the oppression of the bourgeoisie. That is why our state is a proletarian type of state, although any amount of trash and survivals of the past can be found in the state apparatus. Lenin, who proclaimed our Soviet system a proletarian type of state, castigated it for its bureaucratic survivals more strongly than anybody else. Nevertheless, he asserted all the time that our state is a new proletarian type of state. A distinction must be drawn between the type of state and the heritage and survivals still persisting in the system and apparatus of the state. It is equally imperative to draw a distinction between the bureaucratic survivals in state enterprises and the type of structure of industry that we call the socialist type. It is wrong to say that because our economic bodies, or our trusts, suffer from mistakes, bureaucracy, and so forth, our state industry is not socialist. It is wrong to say that. If that were true, our state, which is of the proletarian type, would also not be proletarian. I can name quite a number of bourgeois apparatuses that function better and more economically than our proletarian state apparatus; but that does not mean that our state apparatus is not proletarian, that our type of state apparatus is not superior to the bourgeois type. Why? Because, although that bourgeois apparatus functions better, it functions for the capitalist, whereas our proletarian state apparatus, even if it does fumble sometimes, after all functions for the proletariat and against the bourgeoisie."



Stalinist Russia was not in this path, because the proletariat did not control the means of production and the Soviets held no formal power.

This (http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html) indicates (http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr2.html) otherwise.


Yes, let us blindly follow what Stalin has to say about the "dictatorship of the proletariat" and state capitalism in the USSR...and likewise blindly believe what George Bush has to say about "Democracy in Iraq"!

The ruling classes never lie about the conditions of their society...ever!

And yet this is supposed to be the concrete evidence that the USSR was socialist? A propaganda piece by the ruler of the USSR?

Hey hey, guess what, capitalism is just and egalitarian using the very same reasoning.

The very reasoning behind the justifications of the USSR as "socialist" justifies capitalism as "egalitarian" (as bourgeois economists would lead you to believe).

There you go making up stories again, "Red." I was hoping to start a new debate on Stalin's remarks about the theory of State Capitalism, an opposing viewpoint to what "knowledge" was presented about state capitalist theory on these forums.


You mean how you ignored what Marx was talking about and immediately jumped to false conclusions with Marx's Critique of the Gotha Programme?

You mean, how I quoted Marx on his criticisms of Lassalle and what he offered as a hypothesis on the transition through socialism and finally the higher phase of communism? And how you missed that? Several times in a row? And counting?


Or how you ignored Engels' on the vanguard?

You mean, how you tried to drive a wedge between Marx and Lenin on the concept of the vanguard? It's funny how there are "Marxists" out there who try to confuse others on the concept of the vanguard. Never mind what Bolsheviks said about instilling consciousness among the working class, and getting the working class to lead the ranks of the party, and run the party, and thus lead the revolution for themselves.



Brilliant defense though, "I'm right because I quoted two texts, the end."

This coming from the guy who talked, went around in circles, twisted words, went around in circles some more, twisted words some more, and went on this vicious cycle until finally it became apparent he said nothing constructive.


It's the only way that one could justify the USSR as socialist, by ignoring empiricism I mean.

I did not ignore empirical fact. I thought your data was very useful. Your interpretation of the data was the problem.

Rawthentic
1st June 2007, 04:57
CEA, what Stalin said would apply to Lenin and I if the working class was in control. The fact of the matter, that, under Stalin, the working class was neither in economic or political control. CR presented the stats as to why, but you will never be able to.

The Author
1st June 2007, 05:07
but you will never be able to.

I did earlier...hyperlinked...

http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html

http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr2.html

An interesting remark from Grover Furr in that article:


61. Maybe Stalin and Beria believed that returning the Party alone to a "purely political" function could have prevented its degeneration. Since this plan -- if it was theirs -- was never put into effect, we can't really know. But I suspect that the issue of "material incentives," i.e. economic inequality, is the fundamental one. In conversations with Felix Chuev the aged Molotov mused about the need for more and more "equalization," and worried about the future of socialism in the USSR as he saw inequality increasing. Molotov did not trace the roots of this development back into Stalin's or Lenin's day. In fact Molotov, like Stalin, was unable to look at Lenin's legacy critically, though the need to preserve and expand inequalities in order to stimulate production can be traced at least to Lenin, if not to the Marx of the Critique of the Gotha Program.

Which is one of the issues I have been trying to explain all along in terms of what Marx advocated...

ComradeRed
1st June 2007, 05:49
Originally posted by CriticizeEverythingAlways+May 31, 2007 07:46 pm--> (CriticizeEverythingAlways @ May 31, 2007 07:46 pm)
Stalinist Russia was not in this path, because the proletariat did not control the means of production and the Soviets held no formal power.

This (http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html) indicates (http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr2.html) otherwise.[/b]
The argument from part 1 boils down to "Well, the official documents claim that the working class were in charge, therefore they were."

That's not a good argument. The constitution of the U$ claims that the U$ is a democracy founded on equality, so therefore it is :lol:

Here's an example of this man's "enlightening research":

Originally posted by Enlightened [email protected]
42. Article 3 of the 1936 Constitution reads, "In the U.S.S.R. all power belongs to the working people of town and country as represented by the Soviets of Working People's Deputies." The Communist Party is mentioned in Article 126 as "the vanguard of the working people in their struggle to strengthen and develop the socialist system and is the leading core of all organizations of the working people, both public and state." That is, the Party was to lead organizations, but not the legislative or executive organs of the state. (1936 Constitution; Zhukov, Tayny 29-30)

43. Stalin seems to have believed that, once the Party was out of direct control over society, its role should be confined to agitation and propaganda, and participation in the selection of cadres. What would this have meant? Perhaps something like this.

The Party would revert to its essential function of winning people to the ideals of communism as they understood it.
This would mean the end of cushy sinecure-type jobs, and a reversion to the style of hard work and selfless dedication that characterized the Bolsheviks during the Tsarist period, the Revolution and Civil War, the period of NEP, and the very hard period of crash industrialization and collectivization. During these periods Party membership, for most, meant hard work and sacrifice, often among non-Party members, many of whom were hostile to the Bolsheviks. It meant the need for a real base among the masses. (Zhukov, KP Nov. 13 02; Mukhin, Ubiystvo)

44. Stalin insisted that Communists should be hard-working, educated people, able to make a real contribution to production and to the creation of a communist society. Stalin himself was an indefatigable student.11 Yes, the constitution said X, Y, and Z so therefore it must have really occurred. Brilliant research.


45. To summarize, the evidence suggests that Stalin intended the new electoral system to accomplish the following goals:
* Make sure that only technically trained people led, in production and in Soviet society at large; As opposed to the workers...which was demonstrated in the other thread statistically.

* Stop the degeneration of the Bolshevik Party, and return Party members, especially leaders, to their primary function: giving political and moral leadership, by example and persuasion, to the rest of society;
* Strengthen the Party's mass work;
* Win the support of the country's citizens behind the government; Read: "Consolidate power for the new ruling class".

* Create the basis for a classless, communist society. Yes, that was exactly what was happening :lol:

This line of reasoning that "propaganda can't lie" does not equate to "proof by empiricism".

Since the first part of Furr's piece was little more than appealing to propaganda as fact, I didn't even bother to read the second part. If he had bothered to cite a statistic or figure that the workers were in control, or any other assertion of his were true, perhaps there'd be reason to read on.

Unsurprisingly, this apologist didn't present any figures supporting his points.


CriticizeEverythingAlways
There you go making up stories again, "Red." Thank you for missing the point entirely.

Every justification of the USSR as socialist (which apparently the defenders equate to "the USSR being a 'just system'" which is a complete non-sequitur) uses the same reasoning as the Libertarians' justifications for capitalism as "a good system".

But again thanks for completely missing the point, it's not the first time you've done it.


I was hoping to start a new debate on Stalin's remarks about the theory of State Capitalism, an opposing viewpoint to what "knowledge" was presented about state capitalist theory on these forums. What's there to debate about?

Why not debate about Bush's remarks about Democracy in Iraq?

In both cases, it's an autocrat defending his actions through propaganda speeches. Bush's remarks are simply more recent than Stalin's.

In both cases, there is absolutely no evidence to support the proposition that the propaganda is true.



You mean how you ignored what Marx was talking about and immediately jumped to false conclusions with Marx's Critique of the Gotha Programme?

You mean, how I quoted Marx on his criticisms of Lassalle and what he offered as a hypothesis on the transition through socialism and finally the higher phase of communism? And how you missed that? Several times in a row? And counting? You really need to learn how to read, mate, you couldn't even figure out that Marx was following Lassalle's proposition to its logical conclusion when Marx explicitly stated it.

After I even pointed this out explicitly with the passage that you omitted explaining what Marx was doing, you continue to ignore the fact that Marx was criticizing the Lassallean proposition!

Seriously, you need to stop pretending to have actually read it.



Or how you ignored Engels' on the vanguard?

You mean, how you tried to drive a wedge between Marx and Lenin on the concept of the vanguard? It's funny how there are "Marxists" out there who try to confuse others on the concept of the vanguard. Never mind what Bolsheviks said about instilling consciousness among the working class, and getting the working class to lead the ranks of the party, and run the party, and thus lead the revolution for themselves. :lol: Right, again an unsubstantiated assertion.

Would you care to demonstrate this assertion about the Bolsheviks eagerly accepting workers?

More specifically, would you like to relate how that has any significance to my point? The Bolsheviks' actions are completely irrelevant to Marxist theory, they are two independent categories.

The Bolsheviks claim to have been "motivated by" and "acted in accord with" Marxist theory...so that automatically makes it so, right? :lol:



Brilliant defense though, "I'm right because I quoted two texts, the end."

This coming from the guy who talked, went around in circles, twisted words, went around in circles some more, twisted words some more, and went on this vicious cycle until finally it became apparent he said nothing constructive. True, I did "go around in circles" because you completely disregarded everything I had written!

Perhaps you could take up the challenge that I laid down though: suppose the USSR were socialist, then it should be easy to present statistics to falsify the state capitalist hypothesis.

Go ahead, present statistical evidence that will falsify the state capitalist hypothesis. It would end the discussion once and for all.



It&#39;s the only way that one could justify the USSR as socialist, by ignoring empiricism I mean.I did not ignore empirical fact. I thought your data was very useful. Your interpretation of the data was the problem. Oh right, the workers being the minority of the party obviously meant the workers have control, silly me <_<

Die Neue Zeit
1st June 2007, 05:53
^^^ That last remark of yours is more complicated when you consider "leverage." ;)

You have new mail&#33;

The Author
1st June 2007, 19:36
Explain to me how there was wage-slavery in the USSR. Explain to me how there was state capitalism in the USSR. Explain to me the theory of "state-capitalism." I see major bureaucratic problems, but I don&#39;t see state capitalism in action. How were workers exploited and paid for less than the labors they performed? How was the bureaucracy "bourgeois"? Why does the theory of "state-capitalism" contradict what Marx said in "Gotha Programme," that deductions were made from production profits by the enterprise, and the rest divided among the workers, how "right, instead of being equal, had to be unequal." How, as Engels mentioned it in "On Authority," there would still be authoritarian institutions, especially under large-scale production; why this is contradictory to the theory of state-capitalism.

Rawthentic
1st June 2007, 23:31
CEA, are you being serious and actually reading what Red writes?

I mean, he&#39;s been over this time and time again, and it seems like you&#39;re playing innocent now.

luxemburg89
1st June 2007, 23:55
This coming from the guy who talked, went around in circles, twisted words, went around in circles some more, twisted words some more, and went on this vicious cycle until finally it became apparent he said nothing constructive.


Sounds like a Kylie Minogue dance routine, alas I digress...

ComradeRed
2nd June 2007, 22:11
Originally posted by CriticizeEverythingAlways+--> (CriticizeEverythingAlways)Explain to me how there was wage-slavery in the USSR.[/b]This has been covered all ready and contested by you; so why don&#39;t you define "wage-slavery" since it appears to be the source of our disagreement?


Originally posted by CriticizeEverythingAlways+--> (CriticizeEverythingAlways)Explain to me how there was state capitalism in the USSR. Explain to me the theory of "state-capitalism."[/b] Perhaps we should start slowly. A few definitions, and theorems, and so forth.

Definition The Mode of Production is a certain configuration of (1) productive forces, (2) social and technical relations of production.

Definition A Class is a group of humans in a given society in a specific mode of production with specific relations to the means of production and to labor.

Remark The State is seen more as a tool of the ruling class of a given mode of production. E.g. the bourgeois "democracy" in the U&#036; is headed entirely by the bourgeoisie.

Definition The Capitalist Mode of Production is a mode of production where (1) a class of mini-despots own the means of production and distribution, and exploit those who don&#39;t; (2) private property in people (i.e. slavery) is abolished.

Remark Now some of you may say that this is an odd definition...what about the law of accumulation?&#33; The law of value?&#33;

The law of value is "always" in effect when exchange occurs, since the definition included ownership of the production and distribution, it would presuppose the law of value. (Indeed, that&#39;s the supposed defense of the wage differential in the USSR when a minister makes 6 times as much as a factory worker :lol: )

As for the law of accumulation, that is characteristic of a particular phase of capitalism. Marx elaborates:

Originally posted by Marx
In any given branch of industry centralisation would reach its extreme limit if all the individual capitals invested in it were fused into a single capital. [12] In a, given society the limit would be reached only when the entire social capital was united in the hands of either a single capitalist or a single capitalist company.
[...]
(Footnote:
12. Note in the 4th German edition. — The latest English and American "trusts" are already striving to attain this goal by attempting to unite at least all the large-scale concerns in one branch of industry into one great joint-stock company with a practical monopoly. F. E.) Das Kapital, Vol. I, Chapter 25 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch25.htm#S2) by Karl Marx (1867).

The law of accumulation is only an identifier to a particular phase of capitalism, not to the entire capitalist mode of production itself.

So what would state capitalism be? Are you ready for the definition?&#33;

Definition State Capitalism is a particular instance of the capitalist mode of production where the ruling class picks up the role as the mini-despots ("capitalists") rather than a subset of the latter picking up the role of the former <Math jargon: the morphism from the set of mini-despots is onto, i.e. bijective, the set of the ruling class rather than the converse>; the state and economy takes up a relation that looks like a corporation.


Originally posted by CriticizeEverythingAlways
How were workers exploited and paid for less than the labors they performed? Well, first we both agree that there was the expansion of capital. This phenomena was occurring in the USSR.

The expansion of capital pre-supposes the concept of surplus value. Marx actually makes a number of points about this:
Das Kapital, vol. I, Chapter 3 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch03.htm) by Karl Marx (1867)
Das Kapital, vol. I, Chapter 4 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch04.htm) by Karl Marx (1867)
Das Kapital, vol. I, Chapter 5 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch05.htm) by Karl Marx (1867)
Das Kapital, vol. I, Chapter 9 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch09.htm) by Karl Marx (1867)
Das Kapital, vol. I, Chapter 10 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch10.htm#S2) by Karl Marx (1867)
Das Kapital, vol. I, Chapter 13 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch13.htm) by Karl Marx (1867)
Das Kapital, vol. I, Chapter 14 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch14.htm) by Karl Marx (1867)
Das Kapital, vol. I, Chapter 16 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch16.htm) by Karl Marx (1867)
Das Kapital, vol. I, Chapter 18 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch18.htm) by Karl Marx (1867)
Das Kapital, vol. I, Chapter 23 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch23.htm) by Karl Marx (1867)
Das Kapital, vol. I, Chapter 24 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch24.htm) by Karl Marx (1867)
Das Kapital, vol. I, Chapter 25 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch25.htm) by Karl Marx (1867)
Das Kapital, vol. II, Chapter 7 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1885-c2/ch07.htm) by Karl Marx (1885).


Originally posted by CriticizeEverythingAlways
How was the bureaucracy "bourgeois"? The bourgeoisie: (1) contribute nothing to the (direct) production of commodities, (2) coordinate the production of commodities, (3) live off the labor of the workers, (4) coordinate the expansion of capital, (5) coordinate the distribution of commodities.

It seems pretty obvious that the bureaucracy fulfills all of these criterion.


Originally posted by CriticizeEverythingAlways
Why does the theory of "state-capitalism" contradict what Marx said in "Gotha Programme," that deductions were made from production profits by the enterprise, and the rest divided among the workers, how "right, instead of being equal, had to be unequal." I see you haven&#39;t taken my advice to closely re-read that passage from Critique of the Gotha Programme (http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm).

Marx is following the Lassallean programme to its logical conclusion by deconstructing a quoted section of it:
Originally posted by Marx

3. "The emancipation of labor demands the promotion of the instruments of labor to the common property of society and the co-operative regulation of the total labor, with a fair distribution of the proceeds of labor."Promotion of the instruments of labor to the common property" ought obviously to read their "conversion into the common property"; but this is only passing.

What are the "proceeds of labor"? The product of labor, or its value? And in the latter case, is it the total value of the product, or only that part of the value which labor has newly added to the value of the means of production consumed?

"Proceeds of labor" is a loose notion which Lassalle has put in the place of definite economic conceptions.

What is "a fair distribution"?

Do not the bourgeois assert that the present-day distribution is "fair"? And is it not, in fact, the only "fair" distribution on the basis of the present-day mode of production? Are economic relations regulated by legal conceptions, or do not, on the contrary, legal relations arise out of economic ones? Have not also the socialist sectarians the most varied notions about "fair" distribution?

To understand what is implied in this connection by the phrase "fair distribution", we must take the first paragraph and this one together. The latter presupposes a society wherein the instruments of labor are common property and the total labor is co-operatively regulated, and from the first paragraph we learn that "the proceeds of labor belong undiminished with equal right to all members of society."

"To all members of society"? To those who do not work as well? What remains then of the "undiminished" proceeds of labor? Only to those members of society who work? What remains then of the "equal right" of all members of society?

But "all members of society" and "equal right" are obviously mere phrases. The kernel consists in this, that in this communist society every worker must receive the "undiminished" Lassallean "proceeds of labor".

Let us take, first of all, the words "proceeds of labor" in the sense of the product of labor; then the co-operative proceeds of labor are the total social product. He then continues to analyze the quote to its logical conclusions, a portion of which you selectively quoted and tried to pass it off as though it were Marx&#39;s recommendations for what socialism "ought to be".

You appear to choose to ignore this point...along with the entire context of Marx talking about the logical conclusions of the Lassallean programme as being incorrect.

Marx even iterates this point:
Originally posted by Marx
I have dealt more at length with the "undiminished" proceeds of labor, on the one hand, and with "equal right" and "fair distribution", on the other, in order to show what a crime it is to attempt, on the one hand, to force on our Party again, as dogmas, ideas which in a certain period had some meaning but have now become obsolete verbal rubbish, while again perverting, on the other, the realistic outlook, which it cost so much effort to instill into the Party but which has now taken root in it, by means of ideological nonsense about right and other trash so common among the democrats and French socialists.

Quite apart from the analysis so far given, it was in general a mistake to make a fuss about so-called distribution and put the principal stress on it. But I guess you chose to either not read that far or ignore it too.

In the next paragraph Marx declares the type of "socialism" that espouses such a proposition that he followed to its logical conclusion as vulgar socialism...and he was right.


[email protected]
How, as Engels mentioned it in "On Authority," there would still be authoritarian institutions, especially under large-scale production; why this is contradictory to the theory of state-capitalism. Engels&#39; entire thesis is: organization requires authority.

He defines authority as "Authority, in the sense in which the word is used here, means: the imposition of the will of another upon ours; on the other hand, authority presupposes subordination." It&#39;s the first sentence of the second paragraph of On Authority (http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm) By Frederick Engels (1872).

I define "organize" as "to make an orderly, functional, structured whole". This appears to be the sense how Engels uses the word too in his examples of the Cotton factory, rail roads, etc.

Engels fails to really prove his thesis. His argument could be summarized as such:

"X is organized. X is also authoritarian. Coincidence? I think not..."

Counter example of this reasoning: a trout is an animal, and a trout is also a fish. Therefore being an animal means that one is also a fish.

Engels gives a grocery list of "examples" that he asserts are authoritarian in nature (although he doesn&#39;t prove it) and asserts that it is because of this authoritarian nature it is organized. He fails to actually prove this though.


Engels
There, in time of danger, the lives of all depend on the instantaneous and absolute obedience of all to the will of one. So does that mean that, in the event of another terrorist attack in the U&#036;, we all should "instantaneously and absolutely" give blind obedience to the President? :lol:

Die Neue Zeit
3rd June 2007, 18:09
I already have a thread on the relationship between revolutionary "stamocap" and the DOTP, which also states the difference between the DOTP and "revolutionary-democratic" tasks of primitive stamocap.

ComradeRed, now that I&#39;m in the mood for a quote-fest, I shall attempt to dispell your misconception that Lenin equated state capitalism with socialism:

"Left-Wing" Childishness (http://marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/may/09.htm)

Page 311 of Stalin&#39;s 14th Party Congress report, which shall not be quoted again, is an echo of the work above:


But what does the word “transition” mean? Does it not mean, as applied to an economy, that the present system contains elements, particles, fragments of both capitalism and socialism? Everyone will admit that it does. But not all who admit this take the trouble to consider what elements actually constitute the various socio-economic structures that exist in Russia at the present time. And this is the crux of the question.

Let us enumerate these elements:

1) patriarchal, i.e., to a considerable extent natural, peasant farming;

2) small commodity production (this includes the majority of those peasants who sell their grain);

3) private capitalism;

4) state capitalism;

5) socialism.

Russia is so vast and so varied that all these different types of socio-economic structures are intermingled. This is what constitutes the specific features of the situation...

It is not state capitalism that is at war with socialism, but the petty bourgeoisie plus private capitalism fighting together against both state capitalism and socialism. The petty bourgeoisie oppose every kind of state interference, accounting and control, whether it be state capitalist or state socialist. This is an absolutely unquestionable fact of reality, and the root of the economic mistake of the “Left Communists” is that they have failed to understand it. The profiteer, the commercial racketeer, the disrupter of monopoly—these are our principal “internal” enemies, the enemies of the economic measures of Soviet power. A hundred and twenty-five years ago it might have been excusable for the French petty bourgeoisie, the most ardent and sincere revolutionaries, to try to crush the profiteer by executing a few of the “chosen” and by making thunderous declamations. Today, however, the purely rhetorical attitude to this question assumed by some Left Socialist-Revolutionaries can rouse nothing but disgust and revulsion in every politically conscious revolutionary. We know perfectly well that the economic basis of profiteering is both the small proprietors, who are exceptionally widespread in Russia, and private capitalism, of which every petty bourgeois is an agent. We know that the million tentacles of this petty-bourgeois hydra now and again encircle various sections of the workers, that, instead of state monopoly, profiteering forces its way into every pore of our social and economic organism.

As for Russia today?


At present, petty-bourgeois capitalism prevails in Russia, and it is one and the same road that leads from it to both large-scale state capitalism and to socialism, through one and the same intermediary station called “national accounting and control of production and distribution”. Those who fail to understand this are committing an unpardonable mistake in economics. Either they do not know the facts of life, do not see what actually exists and are unable to look the truth in the face, or they confine themselves to abstractly comparing “capitalism” with “socialism” and fail to study the concrete forms and stages of the transition that is taking place in our country.

And on revolutionary-democratic tasks vs. the DOTP?


In order to convince the reader that this is not the first time I have given this “high” appreciation of state capitalism and that I gave it before the Bolsheviks seized power I take the liberty of quoting the following passage from my pamphlet The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat It , written in September 1917.

“. . . Try to substitute for the Junker-capitalist state, for the landowner-capitalist state, a revolutionary-democratic state, i.e., a state which in a revolutionary way abolishes all privileges and does not fear to introduce the fullest democracy in a revolutionary way. You will find that, given a really revolutionary-democratic state, state-monopoly capitalism inevitably and unavoidably implies a step, and more than one step, towards socialism&#33;

“. . . For socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly.

“. . . State-monopoly capitalism is a complete material preparation for socialism, the threshold of socialism, a rung on the ladder of history between which and the rung called socialism there are no intermediate rungs ” (pages 27 and 28)

Please note that this was written when Kerensky was in power, that we are discussing not the dictatorship of the proletariat, not the socialist state, but the “revolutionary-democratic” state. Is it not clear that the higher we stand on this political ladder, the more completely we incorporate the socialist state and the dictatorship of the proletariat in the Soviets, the less ought we to fear “state capitalism"? Is it not clear that from the material, economic and productive point of view, we are not yet on “the threshold” of socialism? Is it not clear that we cannot pass through the door of socialism without crossing “the threshold” we have not yet reached?

ComradeRed
3rd June 2007, 18:54
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 09:09 am
ComradeRed, now that I&#39;m in the mood for a quote-fest, I shall attempt to dispell your misconception that Lenin equated state capitalism with socialism:
That&#39;s not my thesis at all...not at the moment anyways.

I&#39;m going "back to the basics" to try to explain state capitalism to CEA.

Regardless whether Lenin equated it to socialism or not, state capitalism is empirically what happened in the USSR.

And I&#39;m sure that every quote you&#39;ll ever find from Lenin, et al., will tell you that it was a workers&#39; paradise :lol:

All I&#39;m trying to do is explain: (1) what state capitalism is, and (2) how the USSR was state capitalist.

Rawthentic
3rd June 2007, 18:59
I agree with Red that the USSR was state capitalist, but I disagree about Lenin calling it a "worker&#39;s paradise."

Hammer is correct in saying that historical periods cannot be skipped, but they can be accelerated, and that is what Lenin talks about when he says "state capitalism under worker&#39;s control". It would be transitional and would increasingly empower the workers to run their own state with the help of international revolution of course.

bloody_capitalist_sham
3rd June 2007, 19:08
I am starting to drift towards viewing the old commie bloc as state capitalist, some criticisms of "degenerated workers state" seem to really actually end the possibility of the theory. :huh: :unsure:

Rawthentic
3rd June 2007, 19:11
Are you saying you are coming to accept the state capitalist theory or that Trotsky&#39;s theory disproves it?

bloody_capitalist_sham
3rd June 2007, 19:39
I am saying i have been reading a book by tony cliff and Trotsky&#39;s degenerated workers state doesn&#39;t seem viable anymore.

Rawthentic
3rd June 2007, 19:40
I agree with you BCM.

I think it has been clearly shown what the USSR was.

ComradeRed
3rd June 2007, 21:08
Originally posted by Voz de la Gente [email protected] 03, 2007 09:59 am
I agree with Red that the USSR was state capitalist, but I disagree about Lenin calling it a "worker&#39;s paradise."
My only point is that Leninists tend to argue "Aha&#33; Lenin said &#39;All power to the soviets&#39; so it must have been so&#33; Aha&#33; Lenin said &#39;This is a proletarian democracy&#39; so it must be so&#33;"

I don&#39;t think Lenin ever used the exact phrase "workers&#39; paradise" but he did seem to think of the USSR as a workers&#39; democracy.

This is, however, entirely tangential to the point I&#39;m trying to drive home that the USSR was state capitalist.

Soterios
3rd June 2007, 21:08
Originally posted by ComradeRed+June 03, 2007 08:08 pm--> (ComradeRed @ June 03, 2007 08:08 pm)
Voz de la Gente [email protected] 03, 2007 09:59 am
I agree with Red that the USSR was state capitalist, but I disagree about Lenin calling it a "worker&#39;s paradise."
My only point is that Leninists tend to argue "Aha&#33; Lenin said &#39;All power to the soviets&#39; so it must have been so&#33; Aha&#33; Lenin said &#39;This is a proletarian democracy&#39; so it must be so&#33;"

I don&#39;t think Lenin ever used the exact phrase "workers&#39; paradise" but he did seem to think of the USSR as a workers&#39; democracy.

This is, however, entirely tangential to the point I&#39;m trying to drive home that the USSR was state capitalist. [/b]
This.

Nothing Human Is Alien
6th June 2007, 01:53
I am saying i have been reading a book by tony cliff and Trotsky&#39;s degenerated workers state doesn&#39;t seem viable anymore.

And following that ridiculous and distorted line to its conclusion will leave you siding with imperialism, scabbing on workers&#39; states, and in bed with reactionary mullahs.

Rawthentic
6th June 2007, 23:26
CR, as Hammer has said, Lenin did not mind state capitalism, as long as it was under worker&#39;s control. He very well knew that historical stages could not be skipped, but they could be accelerated. The important thing to note is that &#39;state capitalism under worker&#39;s control&#39; is feasible as long as it is strictly transitory and increasingly involves the empowerment of the working class.

Die Neue Zeit
7th June 2007, 02:31
^^^ However, I must emphasize that while the primitive stamocap of Lenin&#39;s time can accelerate capitalist development, Lenin did say that the PROPER revolutionary "stamocap" under the PROPER DOTP which ComradeRed deems revisionist will be MUCH MORE DIFFICULT to accelerate.

ComradeRed calls Lenin and myself "revisionists" simply because we recognize as historical FACT that socialism can only be achieved through the EVOLUTION of revolutionary "stamocap" (simply because the socialist revolution occurs either after monopoly capitalism, REACTIONARY stamocap of the fascists and similar variants, or even Lenin&#39;s primitive stamocap).



Go see my stamocap (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65240) thread for more details.

Rawthentic
7th June 2007, 23:15
Yeah, I agree, but that happens in more underdeveloped countries, not in the US for example.

Bourgeois revolutions will no longer be made by the rising proto-bourgeois, but by the proletariat, as Russia 1917 showed us.

Intelligitimate
8th June 2007, 02:33
To ComradeRed and CriticizeEverythingAlways:

The point of Furr&#39;s paper was most certainly not to demonstrate that the USSR was democratic. The point was to show a few things, the most important being that Stalin did not have complete control of the USSR, contrary to the Totalitarian paradigm that dominates Soviet studies. Stalin&#39;s attempt to make the USSR more democratic was actually thwarted by the Party, which would be impossible to have happened according to the Totalitarian paradigm, which posits Stalin was the only person in charge.

And yes, the research is quite rock-solid, ComradeRed. A very similar thesis is put forward by J. Arch Getty in his PhD thesis (Origins of the Great Purges: The Soviet Communist Party Reconsidered). Getty is without a doubt the top academic in the field today, and his work was groundbreaking at the time (and still is, though it is dated). The fact is there is no other way to interpret these events except as a failure of Stalin and his supporters to push through with democratic reforms. A realization of this failure by Stalin could even explain a lot of other things about the post 1930s period of the USSR.

In fact, this episode is Soviet history could go a long ways into explaining what really went wrong with the USSR, but this event is incompatible with most current theories of the USSR, including this “State Capitalism” nonsense.

Die Neue Zeit
8th June 2007, 02:46
Originally posted by Voz de la Gente [email protected] 07, 2007 10:15 pm
Yeah, I agree, but that happens in more underdeveloped countries, not in the US for example.

Bourgeois revolutions will no longer be made by the rising proto-bourgeois, but by the proletariat, as Russia 1917 showed us.
^^^ The US will sooner or later enter into a period of reactionary stamocap. However, I think you&#39;re confusing the three types of stamocap that I describe. :huh:

Of the three stamocaps (primitive, reactionary, and revolutionary), only one is compatible for the POST-revolutionary period. In fact, that one form of stamocap is incapable of existing before the socialist revolution.

Like I said, Lenin differentiated between his primitive stamocap and the far-distant revolutionary "stamocap."

The revolutionary "stamocap" which I mention in that thread involves leveraged ownership of the commanding heights of the GLOBAL economy, not just mere national companies and national monopolies. Imagine the operations of the MULTINATIONAL agribusinesses falling under the global state&#39;s ownership, or the operations of the conglomerate General Electric.

PeteJ
8th June 2007, 03:19
The bourgeoisie: (1) contribute nothing to the (direct) production of commodities, (2) coordinate the production of commodities, (3) live off the labor of the workers, (4) coordinate the expansion of capital, (5) coordinate the distribution of commodities. It seems pretty obvious that the bureaucracy fulfills all of these criterion.

The analysis of &#39;the bureaucracy&#39; is pretty key to ths discussion - espeicially if it is capable of forming a ruling class by itself or if it is always (excepting shortlived exceptional circumstances) dependent on a dominant economic class.

The criteria given above that seek to equate &#39;the bureaucracy&#39; with the bourgeoisie are grossly inadequate. The fundamental identifier of the bourgeoisie is that the own the means of production. Even controling the means of production is not an indicator of this class, as they will have others controlling production on their behalf - an intermediate strata.

In fact, &#39;the bureaucracy&#39; is for all intents and purposed merely a tool in the hands of the ruling class. In the case of the soviet union, this was the working class as they owned the means of production through the workers state. The other classes did exist - some peasentry and some small capitalists (operating mainly through the black market). However they did not control the state.

Obviously the workers did not have absolute direct control over the means of production (factories etc), as this was mediated by state&#39;s influence. Some &#39;top-down&#39; power (under broad democratic control) seems inevitable to me if you have a planned economy. However, any visitor to the USSR in the 1970&#39;s will remind you that workers could sack their bosses if they chose, and there was a system of dual control over workplaces.

ComradeRed
8th June 2007, 20:12
Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 06:19 pm

The bourgeoisie: (1) contribute nothing to the (direct) production of commodities, (2) coordinate the production of commodities, (3) live off the labor of the workers, (4) coordinate the expansion of capital, (5) coordinate the distribution of commodities. It seems pretty obvious that the bureaucracy fulfills all of these criterion. The analysis of &#39;the bureaucracy&#39; is pretty key to ths discussion - espeicially if it is capable of forming a ruling class by itself or if it is always (excepting shortlived exceptional circumstances) dependent on a dominant economic class.Agreed, I felt there was something lacking from my post.


The criteria given above that seek to equate &#39;the bureaucracy&#39; with the bourgeoisie are grossly inadequate. The fundamental identifier of the bourgeoisie is that the own the means of production. Even controling the means of production is not an indicator of this class, as they will have others controlling production on their behalf - an intermediate strata. Marx actually criticized the idea that ownership alone was the criteria for someone to be bourgeois.

Marx&#39;s counter-example was if Mr. Moneybags has a pile of industrial capital lying around, that does not make him a capitalist (if I recall correctly, this was in either the Grundrisse or A Contribution to a Critique of Political Economy, if you would like I can get the source and direct quote).

Living off surplus-value is a stronger characteristic for the bourgeoisie.


In fact, &#39;the bureaucracy&#39; is for all intents and purposed merely a tool in the hands of the ruling class. Here I think we are using the term "bureaucracy" to cover two different groups.

I&#39;m generalizing it to cover the entire communist party in addition to bureaucrats...that is the Nomenklatura and the "bureaucrats" not necessarily in the party.

Perhaps I should have been more explicit in my use of the term.


In the case of the soviet union, this was the working class as they owned the means of production through the workers state. There is no empirical evidence of this, perhaps you could cite sources?


The other classes did exist - some peasentry and some small capitalists (operating mainly through the black market). However they did not control the state. Well, a class is a group of humans with specific relations to the means of production and labor; do you disagree with this definition?

The Nomenklatura did not contribute directly to the production of commodities or services; they coordinated the production of commodities, the expansion of capital, and the distribution of commodities. More specifically, a subset of the Nomenklatura.

Strictly speaking, the Nomeklatura lived off the labor of the workers and peasantry.

What else would they lived off of? They didn&#39;t live off their own labor. Not even asserting it was a "socialist mode of production" can change the fact that the Nomeklatura doesn&#39;t live off of its own labor.


Obviously the workers did not have absolute direct control over the means of production (factories etc), as this was mediated by state&#39;s influence. The managers gained total control of the factories by 1936.


Some &#39;top-down&#39; power (under broad democratic control) seems inevitable to me if you have a planned economy. Perhaps, but I think it would depend on how centralized the model is.


However, any visitor to the USSR in the 1970&#39;s will remind you that workers could sack their bosses if they chose, and there was a system of dual control over workplaces. Anecdotal evidence is not empirical evidence.

There is actually evidence against this, starting in 1929 the workers&#39; committees "may not intervene directly in the running of the plant or endeavour in any way to replace plant administration; they shall by all means help to secure one-man management, increase production, plant development, and, thereby, improvement of the material conditions of the working class" (All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) in Resolutions and Decisions of the Congresses, Conferences and Plenums of the Central Committee, Moscow 1941, 6th ed. Vol.II, p.811).

The manager&#39;s economic orders were "unconditionally binding on his subordinate administrative staff and on all workers" (All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) in Resolutions and Decisions of the Congresses, Conferences and Plenums of the Central Committee, Moscow 1941, 6th ed. Vol.II, p.812).

"The foreman is the authoritative leader of the shop, the factory director is the authoritative leader of the factory, and each has all the rights, duties, and responsibilities that accompany these positions" (Socialism Victorious, London 1934, p.137).

The senior official of the Commissariat of Heavy Industry, M. M. Kaganovich, had this to say: "It is necessary to proceed from the basic assumption that the director is the supreme chief in the factory. All the employees in the factory must be completely subordinated to him" (Za Industrializatsiu (Organ of the Commissariat of Heavy Industry), Moscow, 16 April 1934).

And you wish to assert that the workers had power over the managers?

ComradeRed
18th June 2007, 00:13
Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 05:33 pm
And yes, the research is quite rock-solid, ComradeRed. A very similar thesis is put forward by J. Arch Getty in his PhD thesis (Origins of the Great Purges: The Soviet Communist Party Reconsidered). Getty is without a doubt the top academic in the field today, and his work was groundbreaking at the time (and still is, though it is dated).
I looked up some reviews of this paper. Here are some criticisms:

"J. Arch Getty&#39;s Origins of the Great Purges is a quintessentially revisionist work of history...The crux of Getty&#39;s argument is that these two discrete processes [the purges of 1933-36 and the police terror of 1937-38] with different aims, different mechanisms, and different outcomes, essentially the same argument as that used in his 1983 Slavic Review discussion article, but here more elaborately and carefully constructed.[...]there are a few errors of chronology that are disconcerting given the importance that the author places on time and place in his exposition. Stalin&#39;s intervention to have G. L. Piatakov condemned was not in November 1937, but, as is made clear earlier in the text, November 1936; and, contrary to Getty&#39;s assertion, Nikolai Bukharin was in Paris not in April 1934, but two years later." - Lewis H. Siegelbaum, Michigan State University.

"Even if the lines of argument are still hazy, since such discussions at the top can only be reconstructed through skillful reading of highly censored newspapers, Getty does show that political debate did not end with the defeat of Bukharin in 1929. But many vital questions remain unanswered. There is, for instance, the continuing enigma of the Kirov assassination. Although the existence of a &#39;Kirov tendency&#39; has never been proven, we do know that there were murmurings against Stalin in the corridors of the XVII congress (1934). We even have purported voting figures for the Central Committee election, published by Antonov-Ovseenko, according to which Stalin did badly and Kirov very well.[...]Stalin&#39;s own rol remains obscure. According to Getty, he carefully avoided alignment in the radical-moderate debate, being reluctant &#39;to allow any interest group to gain permanent ascendancy&#39; (p. 135). Yet the author himself concedes that there were three pivotal moments between early 1936 (when the Kirov case was reopened) and late 1937 (when Pyatakov was publicly condemned) at which Stalin&#39;s interventions proved decisive. Why did he intervene? Why should these interventions, which Getty admits to be crucial, have necessarily been mere &#39;ad hoc&#39; responses to immediate circumstances rather than the product of longer-term considerations? Despite the title, origins of the Great purges are not really discussed. Here Getty&#39;s self-denying ordinance towards secondary sources works to his disadvantage. Putting the worst construction on Kruschev&#39;s motives as &#39;almost entirely self serving&#39; he treats the evidence of the Politbureau Commission (1953-1955) which formed the basis for the &#39;secret speech&#39; as simply &#39;claims&#39; or allegations. The scholarship of the Kruschev period is discounted, and special barbs are reserved for the works of Roy Medvedev: &#39;a completely and uniformly bitter condemnation of Stalin by a former communist&#39; (p. 218). In fact Let History Judge does furnish a much filler framework for understanding the terror than offered by Getty. He could have built upon its careful distinctions between the proconditions for terror (ignored in the book under review), the triggers and precipitants of its actual outbreak (ascribed here to an apparently accidental conjunction of central and local politics) and the process and inner dynamics that kept it going. The last point is not recognized but explored: &#39;political violence has a logic and momentum of its own&#39; (p. 136)." A. Kemp-Welch, Oxford.

It sounds like an interesting read, but ridiculously over priced. Maybe something to get from the library when I&#39;m bored with everything else there.


In fact, this episode is Soviet history could go a long ways into explaining what really went wrong with the USSR, but this event is incompatible with most current theories of the USSR, including this “State Capitalism” nonsense. I don&#39;t think anyone but the Leninists are looking feverishly for "What went wrong in the USSR".

The theory of state capitalism explains it quite well as the industrialization of the USSR.

But I&#39;m certain the world is waiting with bated breath for your explanation.

Rosa Lichtenstein
18th June 2007, 00:29
I have found a cheapish copy on the internet and ordered it.

I need all the data I can get to support my thesis that dialectics was used to justify all these crazy anti-revolutionary moves by the stalinists in the 1920&#39;s and 1930&#39;s (and not just them -- Maoists and Trots later too).