Raising Children

[drain.you]

I have been thinking recently about how to go about raising children within the current capitalist system. I don't intend on reproducing anytime soon but its something that interests me.
Do we need to prevents our children from being socialised into the norms of capitalist society and if so, how do we go about teaching them communist values. Or do we just live them to be free to make their own mistakes and hope they come to the same conclusions about society that we have. It worries me because how do we know if telling our children about communism will make them accept it or rebel against their parents beliefs just to be different.
How do we combat all the lies that our children will learn in school? How do we keep them away from religion?
At what age will they be able to understand political ideas, when will they be interested, what if they're not?

I wish I had been guided into learning about the left.

[yns_mr]

most of the children tend to follow the path their parents are walking on, there may be exceptions, though.

[Janus]

I'm not a parent but I guess I'll take a shot.


It worries me because how do we know if telling our children about communism will make them accept it or rebel against their parents beliefs just to be different.
Forcing it onto them will probably cause a negative reaction but I don't see why simply educating them would. Besides, most children usually follow their parents' politics anyways or at least they do so early on.


How do we combat all the lies that our children will learn in school? How do we keep them away from religion?
Give them both sides of the story and encourage them to rationally think it our for themselves.

[which doctor]

Do we need to prevents our children from being socialised into the norms of capitalist society and if so, how do we go about teaching them communist values. Or do we just live them to be free to make their own mistakes and hope they come to the same conclusions about society that we have. It worries me because how do we know if telling our children about communism will make them accept it or rebel against their parents beliefs just to be different.
We shouldn't try to persuade them either way. We should teach them to think critically and independently about society around them. Hopefully they reach the same conclusions as we did.


How do we combat all the lies that our children will learn in school? How do we keep them away from religion?
At what age will they be able to understand political ideas, when will they be interested, what if they're not?
To combat the lies, we could certainly teach them ourselves and give them supplementary material. Though, in many cases I think homeschooling would no work because our kids need the socialization that a school environment can provide. I don't think children should be brought up religiously, because it's practically brainwashing. If they're not interested in politics, then oh well.

[Tower of Bebel]

If you are a good parent that there will be no problem at all. The only problematic periode can be puberty (the effects from consumerism on the child) and when the child becomes an adult. It is your responsability to teach and talk to your child about society.

[la-troy]

I am not a parent but I do try and teach my younger relatives things. They are not interested in it at all. i just tell them the basics they don't care about it and i don' force them to care. What is cool do is that whatever book I am reading my little cousins want me to read it to her, whatever the book is and she really listens to it she may not understand but she listens. So I guess you can just read to them, whether it be socialist theories or fairy tails (preferable with a little socialism), just read to them. There is a good chance they will learn to like reading and with you being a socialist i am sure you have socialist books they will pick up one day and remember the simplicities of socialism they heard you with.

Raccoon consumerism takes a hold of kids at a much younger age now. 4 and 5 years old want nothing but Dora and Spongebob products. then they move on to spiderman x-men and some other cartoon character.


As for the religious education of children i am torn. I was raised religious and a lot of the morals I learnt at church stuck with me and the idea of a all loving caring god helped me through some hard passages through my life. Also the concept of a supreme being kinda gives a extra reason to behave good.

[Tower of Bebel]

Raccoon consumerism takes a hold of kids at a much younger age now. 4 and 5 years old want nothing but Dora and Spongebob products. then they move on to spiderman x-men and some other cartoon character.

Yes, but the age of puberty is also vital. It's the last time a child will undergo a serious fysical ans psychological transformation. Because it is the last great transformation parents should always take great care if they don't want their kids to become slaves of society or consumerism.

[Cult of Reason]

I intend to inform my children (if and when I have any) of my world view, and the reasons for it, for absolute certain. They are being told to think a certain way in school, so I am perfectly justified in trying to get them to think like me.

[Ander]

Well, we aren't a cult so I don't think brainwashing our children is a good idea. Let them figure stuff out for themselves but be sure to give them the other side of things.

[Whitten]

All parents can do is ensure that the truth is always available to their children, they have to make their own decisions.

[Coggeh]

Well i know of someone who's parent was in the miners strike , parent wasn't socialist but more of a "union man" this could of im not sure how have lead to the radicalism i see in that person now .

I wouldnt support the idea of manufacturing revolutionaries but if you see your dad/mam reading marx/lenin/bakunin or whatever curiosity will set in and in most cases the child will become an "organic produce" (what a term) of a politically and class aware parent .

[midnight marauder]

We shouldn't try to persuade them either way. We should teach them to think critically and independently about society around them. Hopefully they reach the same conclusions as we did.

Yeah, and I think that one of the greatest things about educating children from an early age (indeed, one of the reasons they're referred to as "sponges") is because they are not born with biases, and don't have many of the same preconcieved notions people are conditioned to accept as givens in their respective societies.

Maybe I'd read them Marcos' childrens books :wub:

[ShyFox]

How about teaching them to think about the things that matter from an early age? Just don't drill it into their heads. Try and get them to understand the reasons why there is something wrong with capitalism/classism/fascism/etc. etc. so that they'll remember what you say and absorb it instead of rebelling against everything you tried to teach them.
It's my dad's tried-and-true method: I'm totally fine discussing anything on here with him, and my sister has decided that she's going to friggin' save the world from itself. She hasn't figured out how yet, but she writes excellent speaches.

[Friedrich Nietzsche]

How about letting kids be kids for the short amount of time thet get to be one?

I had my childhood taken from me due to a series of events out of my control. When they get to an age of where it really begins to matter, just let them do what they want, and love them regardless of differences.

[ShyFox]

Hey nothing wrong with kids being kids. I didn't say drill it into their heads, did I? I mean more along the lines of mentioning things or asking what they thought about stuff. Oh, and get your kid reading as quick as you can. And don't get satellite TV. Trust me, you'll all be fine with what my less channel-ly gifted friends describe as peasant-vision. Trust me, the less of Paris Hilton they see, the less any little girl is going to want to be like her. How about this great other place to see stuff that moves and is colourful: outside.
I'm pulling this from how my parents raised me. Trust me, I'm a normal, well-adjusted, intelligent (I hope!) 17-year old girl who just happens to want to lead a charge against the conservative party of Alberta sometimes. ;)
Anyway, the most important thing is to be the best role model you can.

[Friedrich Nietzsche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 06:49 am
Hey nothing wrong with kids being kids. I didn't say drill it into their heads, did I? I mean more along the lines of mentioning things or asking what they though about stuff. Oh, and get your kid reading as quick as you can. And don't get satellite TV. Trust me, you'll all be fine with what my less channel-ly gifted friends describe as peasant-vision. Trust me, the less of Paris Hilton they see, the less any little girl is going to want to be like her. How about this great other place to see stuff that moves and is colourful: outside.
Feh. Technology is our friend, we ought to use(and abuse!) it to it's greatest extent. We must embrace it for all of it's good and bad, tossing caution to the wind. Your kid is going to develope (eventually) into whomever he or she wants to be. Influences, of all kinds, are inherently good, for they're choices.

I'm 15, far from normal(how many 15yr old Southern Americans do you know who read Nietzsche and Freud?), anti-social and (hopefully) reasonably intellegent.

It's odd though. I'm debating in a parenting thread, and I despise children...

[ShyFox]

I just don't like satellite. I always hit the channel guide too many times :rolleyes: . You can get satellite later if you want. I just don't think it's a good idea to get a 4-year old paying too much attention to the tube. Sure, you can't stop kids from finding stuff for themselves, but most people would argue that it's a parent's job to help kids find their direction.
Of course, I wouldn't disown my future son or daughter if he/she joined some creepy right-wing party, although I wouldn't like it.

[ShyFox]

How many Albertan's would be on this site? Think of this place as the Canadian version of Texas: oil, cowboys, rednecks, point of origin for a right-wing national leader.
I am vaguely amused by Freud sometimes. He gives me something to help me argue in English that everything is about sex.

I used to hate kids too, come to think of it.

[Friedrich Nietzsche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 06:59 am
I just don't like satellite. I always hit the channel guide too many times :rolleyes: . You can get satellite later if you want. I just don't think it's a good idea to get a 4-year old paying too much attention to the tube. Sure, you can't stop kids from finding stuff for themselves, but most people would argue that it's a parent's job to help kids find their direction.
Of course, I wouldn't disown my future son or daughter if he/she joined some creepy right-wing party, although I wouldn't like it.
Meh. Not all of the rightist parties are bad(Libertarianism comes to mind), but I'd agree, a good deal of em' aren't that great. Though, if a child grows up in a decidely liberal environment(atleast at home), he/she'll probably end up, at the least, slightly-liberal, and more open-minded than say, a conservative household.

But then again, it really all depends. I mean, Hitler was raised in an environment of hatred and fear. Beaten until he pissed blood and nearly died in a coma that his father put him in, after beating him(anyone who gives out a "damn it" for him not dying, must understand that the Child Hitler is just as innocent as any child). And we got one of the most awful tyrants of the 20th century out of it.

But hey, without ole' Hitler, we wouldn't have alot of today's technology...

[ShyFox]

Note: I specified "creepy" right-wing party.
If we didn't have Hitler, we wouldn't know that he could have existed as, well, Hitler and we wouldn't be having this conversation. However, Hitler did turn out to be his Nazi self and there is no changing that. There is no way of knowing how it could have turned out otherwise, so I'm not going to hurt my head too much over it. The past is the past, now how about we move on.

By the way, thanks for the conversation.

[Friedrich Nietzsche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 07:11 am
Note: I specified "creepy" right-wing party.
If we didn't have Hitler, we wouldn't know that he could have existed as, well, Hitler and we wouldn't be having this conversation. However, Hitler did turn out to be his Nazi self and there is no changing that. There is no way of knowing how it could have turned out otherwise, so I'm not going to hurt my head too much over it. The past is the past, now how about we move on.

By the way, thanks for the conversation.
More than welcome.

..

What now?

[ShyFox]

Well...I am tired, but I see no reason to go to bed right now: my school recieved a bomb threat that specified June 1 as the day "Boom! Boom! Everybody's dead!", if I may quote the message. Therefore, I have no school. Hopefully when I get back to class the semi-lockdown we've had for a week will be lifted.

[Janus]

Not all of the rightist parties are bad(Libertarianism comes to mind), but I'd agree, a good deal of em' aren't that great.
:blink: You do realize the implications of their goals/program right?

[Friedrich Nietzsche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 10:28 pm

Not all of the rightist parties are bad(Libertarianism comes to mind), but I'd agree, a good deal of em' aren't that great.
:blink: You do realize the implications of their goals/program right?
Libertarians? They aren't that bad. (one must realize that we are comparing them to the other right-wing parties.)

[Janus]

Libertarians? They aren't that bad.
Socially they're progressive but their economic views are just as bad if not worse than some of the right wing parties out there.

[Friedrich Nietzsche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 12:50 am

Libertarians? They aren't that bad.
Socially they're progressive but their economic views are just as bad if not worse than some of the right wing parties out there.
Well, personally, I believe that if you buy something...it ought to be yours. Period. End of sentance. But then again, one of the major points of communism that I disagree with is the concept of not actually being able to *own* things(If I have interputated it right).

[Oedipus Complex]

Friedrich Nietzsche


Well, personally, I believe that if you buy something...it ought to be yours. Period. End of sentance. But then again, one of the major points of communism that I disagree with is the concept of not actually being able to *own* things(If I have interputated it right).

By 'things' we mean private property not personal property. And what do you mean by if you buy something it should be yours? People who privately own things inherited it or were born into an immense of amount of wealth and therefore able to acquire it and exploit the proletariat. So, subsequently something like a factory should not be abled to be owned privately just to manipulate, and accumulate capital, in order to perpetually dominate and control workers.

[yns_mr]

Brainwashing shouldn't be applied i think. The child should be free to choose any ideology...

[Friedrich Nietzsche]

Originally posted by Oedipus [email protected] 02, 2007 04:39 am
Friedrich Nietzsche


Well, personally, I believe that if you buy something...it ought to be yours. Period. End of sentance. But then again, one of the major points of communism that I disagree with is the concept of not actually being able to *own* things(If I have interputated it right).

By 'things' we mean private property not personal property. And what do you mean by if you buy something it should be yours? People who privately own things inherited it or were born into an immense of amount of wealth and therefore able to acquire it and exploit the proletariat. So, subsequently something like a factory should not be abled to be owned privately just to manipulate, and accumulate capital, in order to perpetually dominate and control workers.
Not factories. More like small things(for instance: When my grandfather dies, I'm inheriting an Arisaka WW2 Japanese Rifle that actually saw combat, and a Mosin Nagant).

Would I still get to keep those in a communist society?

[Oedipus Complex]

Not factories. More like small things(for instance: When my grandfather dies, I'm inheriting an Arisaka WW2 Japanese Rifle that actually saw combat, and a Mosin Nagant).

Would I still get to keep those in a communist society?

I can't see why this would be a problem.

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 09:04 am
Brainwashing shouldn't be applied i think. The child should be free to choose any ideology...
Only if a parent knows that it is his/her responsibility to have good debates on ideology with his/har child when the child is free to choose.

[Comrade Marcel]

Just read Makarenko.

[Delirium]

I think it is important to regulate the amount of television that they watch. This will help prevent children from becoming mindless consumers. Teach by example.

[JRR883]

When/if I have children, I'm going to cut off all of the blatantly commercialist stations (MTV, for example) and keep all the educational channels such as the History Channel, Discovery Channel, CourtTV (even though it is basically a documentary channel of the bourgeois legal system, it does have interesting programs), et cetera. I'm also going to make sure they know that learning is fun, and Spongebob is just a mindless waste of time.

Wow, I think I just made my first implicitly authoritarian statement since I advocated banning tobacco in fourth grade.

[gilhyle]

I think it is wrong to even want your children to be revolutionaries. Your duty to them is in this society; empower them to live in it; empower them to want to turn off the TV if they want to .... get yourself to the point where you trust your children as soon in life as you can and as much as you can. Rules should be firm but few, very few.

The class struggle will take care of itself, being a parent is no part of it.

[Friedrich Nietzsche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 09:32 pm
I think it is wrong to even want your children to be revolutionaries. Your duty to them is in this society; empower them to live in it; empower them to want to turn off the TV if they want to .... get yourself to the point where you trust your children as soon in life as you can and as much as you can. Rules should be firm but few, very few.

The class struggle will take care of itself, being a parent is no part of it.
^Quite possibly the single greatest post in this thread.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 03:32 pm
I have been thinking recently about how to go about raising children within the current capitalist system. I don't intend on reproducing anytime soon but its something that interests me.
Do we need to prevents our children from being socialised into the norms of capitalist society and if so, how do we go about teaching them communist values. Or do we just live them to be free to make their own mistakes and hope they come to the same conclusions about society that we have. It worries me because how do we know if telling our children about communism will make them accept it or rebel against their parents beliefs just to be different.
How do we combat all the lies that our children will learn in school? How do we keep them away from religion?
At what age will they be able to understand political ideas, when will they be interested, what if they're not?

I wish I had been guided into learning about the left.
As a Marxist, I firmly believe that our thoughts and opinions are to a large degree shaped by the material conditions of our life, by our experiences. If you want your children to grow up like you, what you must do is make their childhood similar to the childhood you had.

With respect to politics, my advice is this: If you want your children to share your political beliefs, make a list of the life experiences that caused you to be a communist and ensure that your children go through the same experiences.

Don't "guide" them directly if they don't ask for it.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 11:32 pm
I think it is wrong to even want your children to be revolutionaries. Your duty to them is in this society; empower them to live in it; empower them to want to turn off the TV if they want to .... get yourself to the point where you trust your children as soon in life as you can and as much as you can. Rules should be firm but few, very few.

The class struggle will take care of itself, being a parent is no part of it.
Nonsense, the class struggle never "takes care of itself". There is no class struggle without class-conscious people. To want your children to be revolutionaries is to want them to see the truth. To want your children to be revolutionaries is to want them to liberate their minds from capitalist propaganda and dumb consumerism.

Oh, and private property over the means of production is the fundamental aspect of capitalism and the source of all its evils. Libertarianism is quite possibly the most evil ideology in existence, since it glorifies private property over the means of production more than any other. To a libertarian, property is the alpha and the omega of politics, philosophy and life itself.

[gilhyle]

Originally posted by Edric [email protected] 02, 2007 09:43 pm
To want your children to be revolutionaries is to want them to see the truth. To want your children to be revolutionaries is to want them to liberate their minds from capitalist propaganda and dumb consumerism.


No, its to want them to be like you. You were created from your experience of life, not from your knowledge and insight. Knowledge is the after effect of experience. You cannot give your children your experience, and in the Quixotic attempt to do so you will only manipulate and damage them.

You chose to have children in a capitalist society, stop being utopian. Let them have their birth right, good and bad.

[Kurt Crover]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 09:18 pm
When/if I have children, I'm going to cut off all of the blatantly commercialist stations (MTV, for example) and keep all the educational channels such as the History Channel, Discovery Channel, CourtTV (even though it is basically a documentary channel of the bourgeois legal system, it does have interesting programs), et cetera. I'm also going to make sure they know that learning is fun, and Spongebob is just a mindless waste of time.

Wow, I think I just made my first implicitly authoritarian statement since I advocated banning tobacco in fourth grade.
I mean I don't agree with that. Forcing your beliefs/politics on children is bad. It'll force them away from the left. If you explain to them (when they are old enough) your political beliefs and let them see it through their own two eyes rather than yours that have been forced in their sockets :D

[davidbrooke]

Originally posted by gilhyle+June 04, 2007 08:59 pm--> (gilhyle @ June 04, 2007 08:59 pm)
Edric [email protected] 02, 2007 09:43 pm
To want your children to be revolutionaries is to want them to see the truth. To want your children to be revolutionaries is to want them to liberate their minds from capitalist propaganda and dumb consumerism.


No, its to want them to be like you. You were created from your experience of life, not from your knowledge and insight. Knowledge is the after effect of experience. You cannot give your children your experience, and in the Quixotic attempt to do so you will only manipulate and damage them.

You chose to have children in a capitalist society, stop being utopian. Let them have their birth right, good and bad.[/b]
Good post, we have to accept that our children will grow up in a capitalist society. I'd rather raise someone to have a mind of there own, rather than a new breed of clones to fight the ruling classes in the future!

Parents will naturally be an influence politically. Especially if you are very open about your political views, your children will most probably believe in the left.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 10:59 pm
No, its to want them to be like you.
Perhaps. I make no apologies for the fact that I want communist ideas to spread far and wide, and I want as many people as possible to be communists. I also have no intention to indulge in the liberal bourgeois fantasy that the "free marketplace of ideas" will allow truth to prevail. Bullshit. Lies have a competitive advantage over the truth. Leaving your children without guidance is not respectful or prudent; it is irresponsible and stupid.

You are going to have an influence over your children's political views no matter what. Isn't it better to use that influence for some conscious purpose rather than squander it randomly?

I believe children should be introduced to simple Marxist notions (class struggle, social equality, historical materialism) from an early age.


You chose to have children in a capitalist society...
First of all, I don't actually have any children at the present time. If and when I do have children, it will not be my choice to raise them in a capitalist society. I will most likely be forced to raise them in a capitalist society because no alternative is currently available.

[gilhyle]

Originally posted by Edric [email protected] 05, 2007 12:10 am
forced to raise them in a capitalist society because no alternative is currently available.
Be clear about this you have a choice : if you are a person unable to bring children up with appropriate respect for their independent existence in this capitalist society then just dont have children.

There is a very good argument for revolutionaries not having children.