Freedom - are we really free? how do we achieve freedom?

[mentalbunny]

In one of my french conversation classes with my awesome french teacher, who's a french woman studying in the university near my school we stumbled onto the concept of freedom (via Freud, actually) and I decided to shock the people I was with by saying that mankind would never be free. Then on the way back to my house I began to think about this, as we didn't get very far in the discussion in the lesson as the other two girls in my class weren't interested.

So I was thinking, are we really free? First, what consitutes freedom and secondly do we have it?

In the discussion i said we aren't free because everyone is limited by theri own personalities as to how they respond in certain situations, then we aren't free because we do not all have equal opportunites and if one person isn't free then none of us are. I'm not so sure about either of these points and I am still exploring this concept as I find it very intriguing and a necessary thing to define for Socialism.

I would love to hear your responses.

[Rebelde para Siempre]

No I don't think we are free, nor will we ever be truly free. The reason is detailed in my other thread "anarchy is the only answer".

Here it is again -

"I sit here, again, not a care in the world...pondering.

As I'm sitting here I'm beginning to think about what people have said to me both recently and in the past. You have to find yourself.
I have to apparently find what I want to do with my life, sit down, make a plan, and set out after it, not stopping until I achieve it. This is what today's successful man achieves. This is what I must do if I want to be successful. I appreciate your concern.

But I have a thought. What if what I view as being successful is very different from what society as a whole views as successful. In fact, what if success cannot be defined? I know what just went through your head and I'm going to explain myself. You just thought 'OK, he's going to start talking his way around this behaviour (not having a job and such.)' Well, read on my friend and you will soon discover that this is neither my intention nor my point.

You see, thousands of years ago, millions perhaps, before civilisation began, man was free. Completely free. Responsibilities limited. Decisions Limited. Free, in the utmost sense of the word. Not knowing that most of what he believed was but an illusion in his head, he lived and he died, free to roam wherever he wanted, free to do what he wanted, free to eat what he wanted, because all he knew at that time was all he believed existed.

Nowadays however, we have thousands of choices to make a day. What coffee will I drink? What should I buy? These are trivial. We also have to decide on larger issues like what job we will work for 60 years of our mere fingersnap of time we have on earth. Who should we marry? Do we love someone? Should we go to college? Not just these decisions alone will decide however, because it goes deeper than that, all decisions are multilevel. Which and when then enters the equation.

Turn on your TV. Watch it. Take note of how you feel now and how you feel afterwards.

Everything you are exposed to has an effect on what you believe and what you want. Someday's I walk into a clothes store, and my eyes light up like 100 watt bulbs. Imagining how good this would look or how this and that would change my image. How that jacket would increase my chances with this girl, how that shoe would fit well into the teeth of that bastard I have grown to dislike.

Other times it's different. Other times I want to blow the fuck out of every flaming little green money bill on the planet. I want to see every holiday brochure tossed onto a fire, I want to see storms taking down the Eiffel tower and empire of state building, I want those clothes I saw in the store to be ripped to shreds, the pretty female counter-assistant to just lie down and let me fuck her like an animal ... this may be harsh you say, but if you look deep enough past the barricades of socially acceptable thoughts that have been built into your head you will find somewhat similar thoughts floating around.

I'm a complicated person, you can guess that from the last two descriptions of my mindsets. Well, I have news for you, that's only two of them. Every man and woman on this planet has thousands of different people inside them, thousands. How in God are we supposed to decide what we want from life when there's a thousand different options, one we will want one day, the next we won't and vice versa. It's even deeper than that, it's multilevel again, our "people inside us" may change hourly, every minute, every few days, every year, every millisecond ... are you seeing the unpredictable pattern here?

Are you seeing my point yet? Do you realise what I'm saying does not in fact make me a lunatic? I am simply exposing the truth. A lot of people will shy away from this and be "disgusted with this angry young man", all I can say is thankyou. Thankyou for proving my previous point about socially acceptable thoughts and how you will view this article.

So what are we supposed to do about this? Can we in fact be completely satisfied with life? Can all of our persons be fulfilled? Can we find out who we really are? Do we have to cut ourselves off from all types of influence and live as hermits, islands, functioning with eachother as animals for only what we need? You decide your own level of involvement.

Every day the world changes. Faster than ever. First man didn't have to keep up with this, you do. You have to be cool, successful, good at what you do, focused, fun, entertaining, hard working, capitalist, yet you strive to be so much else as well. You strive deep inside to wear that clothing that no-one will accept. Get their hair cut that way. Fuck their best friends sister, maybe even his brother, maybe even his father, but they never ever will let that side of his multisided coin be exposed, in fear of what might happen.

Fear is the trap. You cannot be all of these people inside your head because of it. You must let go of it. You must become detached, completely random, you will be teased, ridiculed, beaten, jailed, and socially crucified once you give in to all of your desires, but you will be free. And that feeling alone will be millions of times better than any one you have ever had before. I know this thought makes you want to shit in your pants without you even taking action. But I dare you..go ahead.. try!

You'll be glad to know that this article will be at end within approximately 1 minute measuring by the reading speed of the average man. I sincerely hope now that you got the point, that you do not view me as an angry rebellious young teenager with a personality problem, but in fact you open your eyes and really take in what has been said. How do you even know I'm a teenager? Was that your own assumption or was that the power of suggestion on my part influencing you without you even realising and changing your view on me before you even know me? - My case is closed."

[Xvall]

We are completely free. We just think we aren't.

[Domitian]

She is right, we are not free. Since all of our actions are reactions to other reactions which were reactions to other reactions and so on. More importantly we weren't built to be free, therefore you have to ask do we really WANT to be completely free. My answer to that is we shouldn't want complete freedom.

It is impossible to build a society where everyone is "free", but it might be possible to build a society where everything is harmonized. I guess that's a definate and conventional goal of socialism, it's not freedom, it's harmony.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Freedom is a human concept, in a sense it has enslaved us to obtain it. If we are "free" from this concept by knowing that we will never have, then prehaps the world will truely be free. (quite paradoxical) (By realizing that there is no true freedom)

[Blibblob]

We can be free, we just choose not too. We dont have to have people telling us what to do, we choose to. Even those who fight back, they have already chosen.

To be completely free, is to be completely alone, no one else will be free with you.

[Domitian]

To be alone is not free, there is still an natural enviroment around which affects your all actions, which means you are no longer slave of others, but now you are the slave of the universe.

[man in the red suit]

freedom has a different meaning for eveyone. How do you decide who is really free and who isn't? My definition my might be different than yours. would that make me free and you NOT free?

is freedom the ability to control your own destiny?

is it being able to do whatever you want without the fear of consequences?

is freedom equality?

happiness?

[Domitian]

That's right, freedom is a HUMAN CONCEPT, humans aren't perfect, therefore how can we create a concept that is perfect? If it is not perfect then how can it be universal? (I think most people see freedom as a universal concept in their own eyes when it really has a different meaning for everyone) If it's not universal, then everyone would have a different opinion. I think we are complicating the simple.

Since in big terms, freedom is just an idea it's not phyiscal. And humans define it, then one is free when they say they are, according to their defination. Then why ask what is freedom? You'll never have the big answer.

Actually if you look at it the big answer probably answer your question:

What's freedom? The big(ger) answers then rights and others:

It's an english word

It's an idea

...

(Edited by Domitian at 6:59 pm on Feb. 1, 2003)

[man in the red suit]

well said. :)

[Xvall]

Quote: from Blibblob on 6:22 pm on Feb. 1, 2003
We can be free, we just choose not too. We dont have to have people telling us what to do, we choose to. Even those who fight back, they have already chosen.

To be completely free, is to be completely alone, no one else will be free with you.


You have said, basically, what I was thinking. In a way. People are always free; they just choose to allow other people's stupid opinions to get to them, making them feel like they 'have' to do certain things, even though they don't. I am free, for example, in this country to smoke Marijuana. Even though it is illegal; there is no magical force preventing me from lighting a joint and smoking it. People just think that because some burlap skinned idiot orders his goons to arrest you in reaction to you doing so, that they aren't free to do it. In reality, they are free to do whatever they want; certain people just want to prevent you from doing these things, and harm you in order to make a point.

[mentalbunny]

I hope I have created an interesting and worthwhile thread for you people.

Anyway, that said I will state some of my ideas about freedom.

Domitian, what you are saying about freedom being a human concept makes a lot of sense.


We are completely free. We just think we aren't.

Drake, very interesting comment. I would agree but I would also disagree. In your second post you mention how we can do whatever we like but someone might try to punish us for that, I would say that if someone is trying to prevent you from doing something then you are not free to do so, but prevention is different from punishemtn and I appreciate what you are saying. In that case we are free to murder because there seem to be few ways to prevent it, although you can punish someone for murdering someone else.

I am reading Motorcycle Diaries by Che at the moment and I would have to say that when you choose to ride off into the near-unknown, then you are free. it is totally your own choice, a free choice, you are no longer shackeld by routine or relationships.

Yes, you are limited by some factors but we will always be limited in some way and I beleive that freedom must therefore be relative. Compared to someone in prison I am free, but compared to someone at university or in the world of work I am not, because i must abide by my school's rules and also some laws aply to me that do not aply to those older than me.

So obviously freedom is not black and white, and I am probably at the paler end of the spectrum in that I have a lot of choices that I can make, but we can never achieve pure white because no one knows what it looks like.

[Larissa]

I think we ARE free. And we should stay free. I'vebeen free all my life, even during the worst military dictatorship (1976-1983) in my country (Argentina) when over 30,000 ppl were toruture and killed. I had to hide, but they were not able to take away my freedom. I (amd my friends) had to distribute panphlets and attend meetings in some sort of secret places, and we certainly felt free and we kept fighting the dictators back. We need to understand that we are free and also that we are equal. I guess most ppl have been brainwashed for years and that might be the reason why they think they are not free or equal. But we all are. Never doubt it.

[redstar2000]

I agree with Larissa completely. The real chains are the ones they try to put around our minds...break those and all the outside chains cannot stand the strain...and will, in time, shatter and fall away as if they had never existed.

:cool:

[Domitian]

Quote: from Larissa on 8:10 pm on Feb. 1, 2003
I think we ARE free. And we should stay free. I'vebeen free all my life, even during the worst military dictatorship (1976-1983) in my country (Argentina) when over 30,000 ppl were toruture and killed. I had to hide, but they were not able to take away my freedom. I (amd my friends) had to distribute panphlets and attend meetings in some sort of secret places, and we certainly felt free and we kept fighting the dictators back. We need to understand that we are free and also that we are equal. I guess most ppl have been brainwashed for years and that might be the reason why they think they are not free or equal. But we all are. Never doubt it.


Although my concept and prespective on freedom is different, as I agree with you we are just not talking about the same thing. Could you explain to me why we are free and equal?

(Edited by Domitian at 4:05 am on Feb. 2, 2003)

[Larissa]

Because I believe we ARE BORN free and equal. All of us human beings. With the SAME RIGHTS, but unfortunately, those rights are usually violated. People should keep being free and equal and should fight for such rights, ALWAYS.

[mentalbunny]

So how do we break our own mental chains and the mental chains of others?

I understand what you mean about us all being free but most people in practice do not feel free, how do we convince them that they are truly free because no one can stop them from doing anything? also in that case people may feel that they are free to kill, etc, how do we introduce ethics?

[redstar2000]

Mentalbunny, I don't think there's any "magic bullet" involved here; it's just the old theory & practice routine.

You talk to people with good arguments that attack the mental chains.

You show people by example that it is possible to act in defiance of those mental chains.

The details are probably slightly different for each person and quite a bit different for each situation. You have to work those out by trial and error...or sometimes learn from the example of others who are trying to do the same thing.

But that it can be done is obvious...otherwise there would never have been any revolutions at all, not even unsuccessful ones. Clearly there is something deep in "human nature" that furiously resents servitude and subordination...that "wants" to be "free." Our job is to bring that to the surface...by any means necessary.

:cool:

[Larissa]

I agree with you 100% Redstar2000.
Basically, there's "some" ppl who think they are not born "equal" in the sense that some think they rae superior or inferior compared to others. And, certainly, a capitalist society promotes the destructive idea that we are not born free, so all we need to do is "re-educate" people who are confused.

Of course we are not "equal" regarding some specific facts: some people are more intelligent or can develop some skills others don't. For instance: I love music, but I'm horrible at singing and playing an instrument, while, lets say: "Silvio Rodriguez" is a superb musician. Thus, in that sense we are not equal, but it still doesn't mean that we are not born equal with the same rights. The problem is some people think this is not so.

If you talk to a child who lives in one of the poorest countries of the world and is starving, he might grow up thinking he has no rights at all. So, it's all about educating this child so he can understand he was born free and equal and has the right to be just that.

[Domitian]

That's interesting, I haven't meet anyone would think that they are better or worse than someone else. Prehaps I'm looking into the wrong place.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from Rebelde para Siempre on 3:36 pm on Feb. 1, 2003
No I don't think we are free, nor will we ever be truly free. The reason is detailed in my other thread "anarchy is the only answer".

Here it is again -

"I sit here, again, not a care in the world...pondering.

As I'm sitting here I'm beginning to think about what people have said to me both recently and in the past. You have to find yourself.
I have to apparently find what I want to do with my life, sit down, make a plan, and set out after it, not stopping until I achieve it. This is what today's successful man achieves. This is what I must do if I want to be successful. I appreciate your concern.

But I have a thought. What if what I view as being successful is very different from what society as a whole views as successful. In fact, what if success cannot be defined? I know what just went through your head and I'm going to explain myself. You just thought 'OK, he's going to start talking his way around this behaviour (not having a job and such.)' Well, read on my friend and you will soon discover that this is neither my intention nor my point.

You see, thousands of years ago, millions perhaps, before civilisation began, man was free. Completely free. Responsibilities limited. Decisions Limited. Free, in the utmost sense of the word. Not knowing that most of what he believed was but an illusion in his head, he lived and he died, free to roam wherever he wanted, free to do what he wanted, free to eat what he wanted, because all he knew at that time was all he believed existed.

Nowadays however, we have thousands of choices to make a day. What coffee will I drink? What should I buy? These are trivial. We also have to decide on larger issues like what job we will work for 60 years of our mere fingersnap of time we have on earth. Who should we marry? Do we love someone? Should we go to college? Not just these decisions alone will decide however, because it goes deeper than that, all decisions are multilevel. Which and when then enters the equation.

Turn on your TV. Watch it. Take note of how you feel now and how you feel afterwards.

Everything you are exposed to has an effect on what you believe and what you want. Someday's I walk into a clothes store, and my eyes light up like 100 watt bulbs. Imagining how good this would look or how this and that would change my image. How that jacket would increase my chances with this girl, how that shoe would fit well into the teeth of that bastard I have grown to dislike.

Other times it's different. Other times I want to blow the fuck out of every flaming little green money bill on the planet. I want to see every holiday brochure tossed onto a fire, I want to see storms taking down the Eiffel tower and empire of state building, I want those clothes I saw in the store to be ripped to shreds, the pretty female counter-assistant to just lie down and let me fuck her like an animal ... this may be harsh you say, but if you look deep enough past the barricades of socially acceptable thoughts that have been built into your head you will find somewhat similar thoughts floating around.

I'm a complicated person, you can guess that from the last two descriptions of my mindsets. Well, I have news for you, that's only two of them. Every man and woman on this planet has thousands of different people inside them, thousands. How in God are we supposed to decide what we want from life when there's a thousand different options, one we will want one day, the next we won't and vice versa. It's even deeper than that, it's multilevel again, our "people inside us" may change hourly, every minute, every few days, every year, every millisecond ... are you seeing the unpredictable pattern here?

Are you seeing my point yet? Do you realise what I'm saying does not in fact make me a lunatic? I am simply exposing the truth. A lot of people will shy away from this and be "disgusted with this angry young man", all I can say is thankyou. Thankyou for proving my previous point about socially acceptable thoughts and how you will view this article.

So what are we supposed to do about this? Can we in fact be completely satisfied with life? Can all of our persons be fulfilled? Can we find out who we really are? Do we have to cut ourselves off from all types of influence and live as hermits, islands, functioning with eachother as animals for only what we need? You decide your own level of involvement.

Every day the world changes. Faster than ever. First man didn't have to keep up with this, you do. You have to be cool, successful, good at what you do, focused, fun, entertaining, hard working, capitalist, yet you strive to be so much else as well. You strive deep inside to wear that clothing that no-one will accept. Get their hair cut that way. Fuck their best friends sister, maybe even his brother, maybe even his father, but they never ever will let that side of his multisided coin be exposed, in fear of what might happen.

Fear is the trap. You cannot be all of these people inside your head because of it. You must let go of it. You must become detached, completely random, you will be teased, ridiculed, beaten, jailed, and socially crucified once you give in to all of your desires, but you will be free. And that feeling alone will be millions of times better than any one you have ever had before. I know this thought makes you want to shit in your pants without you even taking action. But I dare you..go ahead.. try!

You'll be glad to know that this article will be at end within approximately 1 minute measuring by the reading speed of the average man. I sincerely hope now that you got the point, that you do not view me as an angry rebellious young teenager with a personality problem, but in fact you open your eyes and really take in what has been said. How do you even know I'm a teenager? Was that your own assumption or was that the power of suggestion on my part influencing you without you even realising and changing your view on me before you even know me? - My case is closed."


Fuckin good article. *handclapping*

[Larissa]

Quote: from Domitian on 3:22 pm on Feb. 2, 2003
That's interesting, I haven't meet anyone would think that they are better or worse than someone else. Prehaps I'm looking into the wrong place.
You should travel around Latin America and you'll get a better picture of what I am talking about.
It is very sad, but even in my country there are people who think they are "better" and treat others as slaves, and unfortunately, there are also people who think they are "worst" than others and believe they don't deserve the same things.

(Edited by Larissa at 5:01 pm on Feb. 2, 2003)

[Larissa]

For example, some people who were never able to have much education (nor their parents or grandparents) think they are condemned to "SERVE" the rich people. This might sound a bit "Feudal" but it is happening now, in 2003, in provinces such as Tucumán, in the center-north of the country. A province that still supports feudalism and has the highest mortality rate regarding children who die very young because of malnutrition. That is unacceptable in a country that has excess of food for its 37 million inhabitants.

These children, better say "their whole families" need to be correctly educated regarding their rights. Some live like animals and thinks they are "not as good as the rich".

This is a big concern all over the country and upstes us all. So, I tell you, there are people who really think they are better than others just like the US gov towards third world countries.

[Xvall]

In that case we are free to murder because there seem to be few ways to prevent it

Percicely. The only people who realize that they are free to murder are murderers. Obviously, if they were restricted from murdering, they would not have been able to commit it.

[Panamarisen]

I agree with CCCP: great article, RpS! Just don´t forget you are not alone at all by thinking like this... Personally, the only usual way to read someone else expressing theirselves as this, has been through reading Henry Miller or people as clever as that.
IMO, besides, all of you have written really good, really interesting posts. Guess not every Forum could be able to have such intelligent and critical people involved at the same time.

After reading your posts, I scarcely could add freedom is such a hard driving idea, that maybe we are talking about the possibility of choice, the "legal" right to go wherever we want, become who we want, read/write/express what we feel or need to, behave as we want, etc., considering that, while living inside a community, our "freedom" stops whenever/wherever someone else´s begins.

PS: So when/where it actually begins?


¡HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Blibblob]

im free, im gonna go kill someone, and when the government tries to stop me, ill just say that they are removing my freedom...

[Domitian]

Quote: from Blibblob on 10:34 pm on Feb. 2, 2003
im free, im gonna go kill someone, and when the government tries to stop me, ill just say that they are removing my freedom...

What if their answer is: So what?

[Alexander Pop]

We are born free.... yes that is true... but what happens after that event?
When we are born we are free for some little time only... that would be until the government makes the birth sertificate... than we become a "number"... we are no longer what we are... we are captives oin a world not true to what we realy are... to where we belong... the only "master" that we must have is nature... nature is the only one that must have control... and nature is, my friends, loosing control more and more... every day people become more dominant than nature...and that, that is really not good...
In a few years from now (3-5) I am moving to live outside all civilization and I'm taking a group of people with me... and will create a little willage somewhere deep inside some forest...
I wanted to do that some time ago but I just kept pushing it away from me... but as time goes I just cannot throw it out of me... I just must do that... so I will... and nothing will stop me... and once I and the others that will go do it... we will be free... no control, no money, no power, no anger, no fear, no evil between all of us,...
If anyone wanna join... just say so :)

[redstar2000]

It's an old dream...the return to the "Garden of Eden." I don't think it's possible...but let those who wish give it a try.

I think capitalist "civilization" must be utterly transformed into a new civilization...but I can appreciate any attempt to escape what we live under now.

:cool:

[Alexander Pop]

yes, it is an old dream... and it can be done... you only need a strong will, because every start is hard and painful...
I agree that the world must changed and I did some work in that field,... it's in my unfinished book called "The Wonderworld"... it will be published right after my third album goes public... the third album will have the same name as the book: "The Wonderworld". I'm finishing my first album now called "Corporate Sodomy",... the second will be cold "Syllicone Divinity"...
As I said I agree with that and I will fight for that cause,... will go to forest...escape...but from there I will fight... first politicaly... and if that does not work I will attack physically...
TO ARMS!

[Larissa]

Wow! Alex, would you let me join you? Sounds very cool to me. :wink:

[Alexander Pop]

yes, sure :)
new guerilleros are alway welcome :)

[Larissa]

Quote: from Alexander Pop on 6:27 pm on Feb. 3, 2003
yes, sure :)
new guerilleros are alway welcome :) well, thanks! :smile:

[Domitian]

I would come to that little society of yours if I haven't developed a fear for nature, and an involuntary addiction to everything that is metal concrete and predictable. (Basically modern civilization)

[canikickit]

Full freedom is an impossible dream. We can have full freedom in our heads (which is a perhaps the most important part), but we will always be infringed by other people, or we will be the ones doing the infringing. The world is too complicated and there are too many contradictions for everyone to do as they please.

There will always be people who will attack you for freely choosing to say someone is ugly (even in jest), or someone will call you a conservative twit for pointing out the ridiculousness of attempting to ban smoking in all public places.

How free are we now, or can we be now? Very, very free. But society constrains us in ways we cannot even begin to imagine, certain things are deemed "unnatural", certain things will never enter our heads.


there are a great number of people who I consider myself better than, but quality is in the eye of the beholder. I will always be better than them in my own head but I wouldn't neccessarily act on my superiority (in a negative way), nor would I directly allow it to colour my views of them.

Which actually brings back around freedom. I would not allow a direct effect, but one cannot always controls one's brain. Which can be shit.

[Alexander Pop]

Domitian my friend,....
You say you would like to come... which is enough...
So if you do I will help you break free of this addiction... I and the others will be your friends allways... we will be there when it is hard for you... but you will be inlove with nature I can promise you that... and you shall not regret...
Canikickit, you speak of something that characterizes the society as it is here, today... but in this society of mine that I'm trying to create there will be no jelousy, no conflicts, no envy, nothing that is bad... how!? well...you come and you will see :)

[Blibblob]

lol, communalism...

Choose those who will go with you wisely. Not all will obey the great dictator, even if he says, "you are free, do as you wish", the next thing you know, two sides are fighting for power, and your little communalist state turns into an imperailistic empire, conquering others, making them bend to their will. In time it will become capitalist, conquering the economies, setting up diplomatic situations with governments around the world, demanding more and more, sending people to the pit of starvation.

[mentalbunny]

So Blibblob, what is your solution?

[Alexander Pop]

now if anyone gives up his life in the civlization, why whould he than try to revert the path of the forrest community to make a another capitalist civilization...!?... it don't make sense... I'm sort of a capitalist myself at the moment :), but not a real evil one... I care for people... I have a strong company here, that does computer sales and services, network designs, graphics designs, accounting, consulting, import and export... but I'm ready to give it all up for what I beleive in... and If others do the same I don't think they would consider aborting something for what they had to give up on their nice lives in a big house with white fense and a dog named snoopy :) hehehe... that was a joke but the joke was supposed to make sense to this all I'm speaking of :)

[Blibblob]

Blibblob is working on an essay that will fully describe his solution.

And what i did was basicly stated the entire history of the human race (very shortly, and missing a couple reverts and returns). It happened that way once, it will most likely happen agian. It might take a generation or two(more technology, it can happen faster, no need to research and create new ideas). So when your dead, that is what i predict, it never happens how the founder wants it to.

[Alexander Pop]

hmm...yes...things never happen like you want them too... but it don't mean that it ends up the way you say it... besides I'm a person that hails to discipline and order as well as peace and love :) discipline creates order, order creates peace, peace creates love! that's the way it goes... al those who go opposed get punished :)
DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR!

[Blibblob]

Damn. "death before dishonor", are you japanese?(not trying to offend japanese people, but they are, from history, the big honor people)

What kind of discipline? The dictatorship "do this or die" discipline, or the "athority is bullshit, think for yourself, use morals" discipline?

Order is chaos, they are interchangable. From chaos comes order, and order breeds chaos, never ending cycle.http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/Explode.gif

Peace is an unacheivable goal, try as hard as you want, peace will create chaos, and the end of the human race.
Its another damn cycle, stupid humans, in times of peace, people prepare for war, in times of war, people hope for peace.

LOVE!!! Thats just a human emotion.http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/Sorry.gif


Sad sad world...http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/Sigh.gif

[Alexander Pop]

hey, I know I mostly have dark thoughts but you... you go way beyond me :)
But trust me...no dictatorship is needed to implement discipline... neither will peace create war....
Come with us and see for yourslef :)
P.S. I'm not japanese...

[Blibblob]

Sit in your community for a year, if it goes great, give me some kind of buzz...