Live vs activism

[listener]

Hi,

I had long thoughts about active groups and the contradictions many members seem to actually live. I once was a member of a communist group, also an anti-racist group etc, they were 'fighting' against 'the system', they informed the public, how bad the system is etc., but their own lifes where just this in most cases: Supporting and benefitting from the system. House-owners, men in high positions at work, paternalists etc.
I personally have problems to join such groups and made the decision not to try it any longer. There are other ways to be active when I think it is necessary, but for me it is more important how I try to live. For me, it is a way of life.
What do you think, any thoughts?

[Anarchovampire]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 02:15 pm
Hi,

I had long thoughts about active groups and the contradictions many members seem to actually live. I once was a member of a communist group, also an anti-racist group etc, they were 'fighting' against 'the system', they informed the public, how bad the system is etc., but their own lifes where just this in most cases: Supporting and benefitting from the system. House-owners, men in high positions at work, paternalists etc.
I personally have problems to join such groups and made the decision not to try it any longer. There are other ways to be active when I think it is necessary, but for me it is more important how I try to live. For me, it is a way of life.
What do you think, any thoughts?
I share your pain... I come from 100% American capitalist stock... raised under the cold war and think that I am trying to install a Stalinist state...

The hard thing is there is no other choice... here in the US, setting up a communist refuge or settlement is a great way to have the FBI/ATF/National Alliance banging on your door. And you cannot surive by going up to a market vender and saying, "As a communist, I want my share of the people's crop." It doesn't work. The best thing you can do is:
- Try to get friends and relatives as dedicated as yourself to create a commune in the middle of Utah/Colorado (take that Ayn Rand!) or whatever
- Move to a more socialistic state (Sweden, Denmark etc...)
- Spend what you need, give the rest to your local socialist/communist party/ world charity
- Go to the third world, participate in charities such as building schools (so long as it isn't religious stuff).

The main part is, reject to the fullest you can the society around you. Want not/waste not... it is all you can really do... and when the revolution starts, grab a gun and join it ;)

[listener]

Hi,
I am German (and live in Germany) ;)
I am not materialistic and try not to support too much the capitalistic society.
Yes, with the upcoming G8-summit here, the raids of police etc, somehow, at the moment there are 'tensions' here.
But with many leftists or people who call themselves leftist or antifas, I have the feeling, many of them are just not honest. They want to be "anti-something" or want to be "good" ('anti-racists for example'), but many of them don't live what they prey. At least my experience and I find this quite frustrating.

[Aurora]

but their own lifes where just this in most cases: Supporting and benefitting from the system. House-owners, men in high positions at work, paternalists etc.
It was obviously not a communist group is they supported the system,also there is nothing wrong with owning a house or having a high position at work,if you dont own the business.

I personally have problems to join such groups and made the decision not to try it any longer.
I wouldnt rule it out altogether.I would recommend reading up on a good bit of theory,then read up on what diferent groups actualy do,if you find a group you like go along to a few meetings before you commit to it.

but for me it is more important how I try to live
Im afraid you cant live outside capitalism,it just dosnt work that way.Even if you look at countries that have tryed,you can see that they always have interference from outside eg early SU,civil war,whites supported by US,France,Britain. Spain,civil war,Franco supported by Mussolini,Hitler etc

[black magick hustla]

Communism is not a religion.

We are forced to live in a certain way.

[Anarchovampire]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 11:18 pm
Communism is not a religion.

We are forced to live in a certain way.
I think he is worried about the inherant hypocicy of enjoying a capitalist society while clamouring for the revolution... not a dictated communist life style. :unsure:

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by Anarchovampire+May 29, 2007 04:02 pm--> (Anarchovampire @ May 29, 2007 04:02 pm)
[email protected] 29, 2007 11:18 pm
Communism is not a religion.

We are forced to live in a certain way.
I think he is worried about the inherant hypocicy of enjoying a capitalist society while clamouring for the revolution... not a dictated communist life style. :unsure: [/b]
I am pretty sure he meant to say "we are not forced to live a certain way".

Yes the OP seems to be disheartened because we are all hypocrites but that is something they must accept. All of us that want a better society will be hypocritical when we live in this one. That is unavoidable. You are a hypocrite when you wear those shoes made in China. You are a hypocrite when you sell your car. You are a hypocrite when you go to work and fuel the capitalist economy. What you need to realize is that this is inevitable. After you realize that you can then do something productive.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by Anarchovampire+May 30, 2007 12:02 am--> (Anarchovampire @ May 30, 2007 12:02 am)
[email protected] 29, 2007 11:18 pm
Communism is not a religion.

We are forced to live in a certain way.
I think he is worried about the inherant hypocicy of enjoying a capitalist society while clamouring for the revolution... not a dictated communist life style. :unsure: [/b]
No.

Communism is about abundance and less work. There is nothing wrong in "enjoying" capitalism because we realize that in Communism we'll have much more to enjoy.

[Jazzratt]

What's the point in limiting your lifestyle just so you can feel more revolutionary than everyone else, there is no glamour in being poor. You live the best way you can in this system whilst working to instating the next.

[Tiparith]

As well if you join a group and begin to act on a national level you might be able to live a more commie life then you think. A commune is not the answer as it is inherently isolationist but what if your specific group owned farmland and worked it themselves. In ten years you could be eating food that you helped to grow and got for near to nothing money wise. And in that way if we use capitalism to slowly build up a support infrasture inside capitalism then we can flourish and eventually enough people will be interested enough to start a revolution, and then the whole country is communism.... WOOT!

[listener]

yes, we are all hypocrites, but at least I don't pretend to be something what I am not.
I don't expect everybody to live perfect. But at least they should believe in their own agenda.
Some examples to make it perhaps clear what I mean, I am trying to respect humans as humans, regardless their background:
- People from the antifa, many I know are only out to 'bash' right wingers. They feel superior to them, and already with this I have my problems. I really don't like the attitudes and actions of right-wingers, but non-theless they are humans.
To not respect them as people - where is the real difference then? Can you understand what I mean?
- anti-racists: Paternalists, who automatically side with people of a so-called minority, just to do something "good", this isn't honest and is in many cases contra-productive
- The communist group. Most of them came out of the 68er movement here in Germany. There were also a lot of arguments within these groups, also arguments between the antifa and a Jewish group etc. When even small groups can't act peaceful and respectful to each other, how then should it work nation- or worldwide?

I would like to find 'my basics' in a group I would join, and this means equality, respect and honesty. Otherwise I won't join. I don't believe their *agenda*, when they enjoy for example all the capitalistic benefits without restriction, but on the other hand they say: Capitalism is bad.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 11:46 am
yes, we are all hypocrites, but at least I don't pretend to be something what I am not.
I don't expect everybody to live perfect. But at least they should believe in their own agenda.
Some examples to make it perhaps clear what I mean, I am trying to respect humans as humans, regardless their background:
- People from the antifa, many I know are only out to 'bash' right wingers. They feel superior to them, and already with this I have my problems. I really don't like the attitudes and actions of right-wingers, but non-theless they are humans.
To not respect them as people - where is the real difference then? Can you understand what I mean?
- anti-racists: Paternalists, who automatically side with people of a so-called minority, just to do something "good", this isn't honest and is in many cases contra-productive
- The communist group. Most of them came out of the 68er movement here in Germany. There were also a lot of arguments within these groups, also arguments between the antifa and a Jewish group etc. When even small groups can't act peaceful and respectful to each other, how then should it work nation- or worldwide?

I would like to find 'my basics' in a group I would join, and this means equality, respect and honesty. Otherwise I won't join. I don't believe their *agenda*, when they enjoy for example all the capitalistic benefits without restriction, but on the other hand they say: Capitalism is bad.
I don't respect "fascists" as people. They seek to divide people with their racism and sexism. They want to fuck up people because of their skin color. And for that I do not respect them as humans. If given the chance I will shit down their throats.

I don't under stand what you are saying about the anti-racists and the "so called minority". Either a group is a minority or it is not.

You don't believe their agenda when they "enjoy" the benefits of capitalism? Well then you are not going to be able to join any group as all of us living in the "first world" are enjoying the benefits of capitalism.

You are pretending to be something you are not. You are pretending like you are going to live some kind of ultra cool proletarian life free from the benefits/downsides of capitalism. That is not possible where you live. These people you talk about with their house and their good job are still being fucked by the system. They are most likely still working for some boss and still getting less for their labor than it is really valued at.

[listener]

I don't respect "fascists" as people. They seek to divide people with their racism and sexism. They want to fuck up people because of their skin color. And for that I do not respect them as humans. If given the chance I will shit down their throats.

And it is my opinion, as long as they are not regarded as being human, as long as they are exclosed from society, so long there is no reason for them to "re-integrate". Right-wing-extremists are only the most visible target of the many things wrong in our society. Antifas also make a division, also sometimes promote violence in the name of their agenda. So, in the basics, where is the difference?

You don't believe their agenda when they "enjoy" the benefits of capitalism? Well then you are not going to be able to join any group as all of us living in the "first world" are enjoying the benefits of capitalism.

[quote]You are pretending to be something you are not. You are pretending like you are going to live some kind of ultra cool proletarian life free from the benefits/downsides of capitalism. [quote]

No, I didn't say that I live 'ultra cool'

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31, 2007 06:10 am

I don't respect "fascists" as people. They seek to divide people with their racism and sexism. They want to fuck up people because of their skin color. And for that I do not respect them as humans. If given the chance I will shit down their throats.

And it is my opinion, as long as they are not regarded as being human, as long as they are exclosed from society, so long there is no reason for them to "re-integrate". Right-wing-extremists are only the most visible target of the many things wrong in our society. Antifas also make a division, also sometimes promote violence in the name of their agenda. So, in the basics, where is the difference?
The difference is that fascists or right wingers or whatever spread a message of hate. Antifa is a group that stops that message in a direct manner. When a racist jumps a person of color it is a hateful act that is unprovoked. When an Antifa jumps a racist it is to show that people will not just take their hate. It is completely different.

That is like saying what's the difference between a vegan and a meat eater? They both eat don't they?