Jobs

[Ele'ill]

Something that has always bugged me about the left and the right is finding contentment in a job. What is there to do in the United States that pays enough to live on but doesn't support capitalism or something else that you reject (I know, nothing, right?).

For the youngsters on this forum it might be helpful if the older individuals list some jobs to aim for. Going through college as a capitalist can be confusing and unpromising even with all the job opportunities afterward, now try finding a job after rejecting the very educational system that promised you a job working for something you stand against.

I want your input.

[luxemburg89]

pays enough to live on but doesn't support capitalism or something else that you reject (I know, nothing, right?).


So are you trying to make us understand that our plight is pointless and we should give up? Oh well done you&#39;ve convinced me <_< . I think you need to work on your arguments.


I want your input.

I knew capitalists were desperate...

[RaiseYourVoice]

What is there to do in the United States that pays enough to live on but doesn&#39;t support capitalism or something else that you reject (I know, nothing, right?)
i choose my jobs actually by two categories:
-payment
-how much i enjoy it

most jobs dont "support" capitalism. what difference in a revolutionary struggle does it make wether i worked at mcdonalds or at some small family restaurant?

[Ele'ill]

So are you trying to make us understand that our plight is pointless and we should give up? Oh well done you&#39;ve convinced me dry.gif . I think you need to work on your arguments.

No, it was a serious question that you failed to even remotely answer.



i choose my jobs actually by two categories:
-payment
-how much i enjoy it

most jobs dont "support" capitalism. what difference in a revolutionary struggle does it make wether i worked at mcdonalds or at some small family restaurant?

If you&#39;re willing to work for walmart, mcdonalds, starbucks, CVS, Riteaid and any other blowup business you&#39;re not only supporting capitalism you&#39;re supporting urban sprawl. ( I understand that sometimes this is the only option and we need to eat)

If you care about sweatshops, union busters, corporate corruption or anything else that tags along with globalization you would not enjoy working for many of the jobs available in the United States.


My question wasn&#39;t so much asking about what would be considered temp jobs but what will be a career. Guidance counselor vs Mcdonalds cashier. I ask this question not as a trap so please ignore my RESTRICTED MEMBER status. I am curious for myself and i&#39;m sure there are others that are curious, as to how to enjoy a career while still "preserving a belief system".


I knew capitalists were desperate...

1. Any person in their 20&#39;s with two children is desperate. I am a member of the working class, and have been a member of the working homeless.

2. I am not a capitalist.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 01:49 pm
Something that has always bugged me about the left and the right is finding contentment in a job.
Surely everyone finds it hard to get "contentment" in a form of slavery?


What is there to do in the United States that pays enough to live on but doesn&#39;t support capitalism or something else that you reject (I know, nothing, right?).

Well, the problem is, we have to work. If it were as simple as opting out of capitalism, then we could all just do that, and stop moaning. That&#39;s one of our principal objections to capitalism. But in the real world we have to pay for houses, taxes, food, education, heating, etc, and if we don&#39;t work, we don&#39;t get any income, and thus go without our cheap housing and crap food - and suffer. You almost seem to be suggesting that anti-capitalism is some sort of lifestyle choice in which we try to live apart form capitalism in every way possible. But we really can&#39;t. We want to change society, not live seperate from it.

That said, I can&#39;t get a job for another couple of months, as I am going to be elsewhere for a month or so - im unhireable. Which means I have to be fucking thrifty . :(

Previously I&#39;ve worked in retail, and before that, helped out as a builders assistant. But that was when I was in part time education, which I am now not.

Ideally, I&#39;d like to get full time employment in a bar of some sort, but beggars can&#39;t be choosers.


For the youngsters on this forum it might be helpful if the older individuals list some jobs to aim for.

Well, I think it&#39;s pretty self explanatory. Get a job with good hours and decent pay, what job that is I have no idea. But I know some mates who get upward of £9 an hour workin in betting shops&#33;&#33;&#33;. So keep an eye on that one

[Axel1917]

Something that has always bugged me about the left and the right is finding contentment in a job. What is there to do in the United States that pays enough to live on but doesn&#39;t support capitalism or something else that you reject (I know, nothing, right?).

To not support capitalism? Is this meant to live in some kind of vacuum away from commodity purchase, wage labour, etc.? That is not possible. Everyone needs commodities, is forced to resort to selling labour power to barely get by, etc. People had to live and work in feudal society to get rid of it. The same applies to us.


For the youngsters on this forum it might be helpful if the older individuals list some jobs to aim for. Going through college as a capitalist can be confusing and unpromising even with all the job opportunities afterward, now try finding a job after rejecting the very educational system that promised you a job working for something you stand against.

I want your input.

I am not exactly "older," 21 years of age to be exact. I was going to college for computer network adiminstration. I did not like it. It was very tedious, and the wages have been slashed (a few years ago, I was told that this career could make &#036;50K+ per year. Now it only makes &#036;30-&#036;35K per year.). There aren&#39;t many jobs in this small town of 33,000 people I live in (I plan on relocating to a metropolitan area shortly.). I am stuck as a full-time janitor at an elementary school. The wages are crap (the top paid janitors get around &#036;30K per year), and this kind of work is getting old.

I would be happy with a job offering a real living wage, better conditions, shorter hours (made possible by advances in the productive forces when capitalism is abolished), a real say in the process of production, the state, etc. Capitalism is not capable of offering any of these.

Anyone can go to college, but here in the US, it is very expensive, and jobs aren&#39;t always easy to find. One could very well go to college, only not to get a job what he/she trained in, to end up working some "crap job" and having a mountain of debt that will be very difficult to get out of. College is not a "master key" like the advertisements make it seem. I have heard that a college degree today is worth what a high school diploma was worth 20 years ago, i.e. not much.

There are some interests I have: neurosciences, automotive mechanics, and foreign languages and lingusitics.

[Tungsten]

Surely everyone finds it hard to get "contentment" in a form of slavery?
A job = Slavery? Amazing.

Well, the problem is, we have to work. If it were as simple as opting out of capitalism, then we could all just do that, and stop moaning. That&#39;s one of our principal objections to capitalism. But in the real world we have to pay for houses, taxes, food, education, heating, etc, and if we don&#39;t work, we don&#39;t get any income, and thus go without our cheap housing and crap food - and suffer.
Does no one need to work for a living under communism? And we still get paid and have our needs met anyway? Sounds good. Where do I sign up?

[Jazzratt]

Bollocks to this shit, it&#39;s a bad thread.

Jobs "support capitalism" in their way, but that doesn&#39;t matter, every worker needs to sell their labour power to survive.

Fuck&#39;s sake, learn your shit people.

[Ele'ill]

Bollocks to this shit, it&#39;s a bad thread.

Jobs "support capitalism" in their way, but that doesn&#39;t matter, every worker needs to sell their labour power to survive.

Fuck&#39;s sake, learn your shit people.

It isn&#39;t just &#39;capitalism&#39; that&#39;s being discussed here. If you work at a mall in a shop that sells nike you deal with the sweatshop issues. If you work at a coffee shop you have fair trade issues. If you work at a lumber yard you have to deal with deforestation.

The original question should have probably been &#39;how do you all deal with being sit and wait saps&#39; in a fairly open system where you often have the choice to avoid it&#39;s corruptions. (i.e. don&#39;t buy nike, don&#39;t work for nike directly or indirectly, don&#39;t work for the fur industry etc..) I know these are very basic examples.

My intentions for this thread were not to have it be &#39;a bad thread&#39;, nor was it to instigate a fight in any way.

[Dr Mindbender]

Short of finding a political party you agree with and getting a paid job within it, (and they do exist) I cant think of many jobs which dont contribute to either the capitalism or the status quo. If you join a private company, you help them become richer so they can either screw you over till you end up in an early grave or they absorp you into their system. If you get into public sector work you help the established government, or worse yet the military, where you stoke the flames of international conflict. I suppose in the UK we&#39;re lucky having an NHS, since if you become a nurse or doctor youre not making some fatcat wealther and youre not really making an impact on the status quo. So failing becoming a party organiser, thats probably the best one to go for (if youre lucky enough to live in a country with a state owned health service).

[Oedipus Complex]

A job = Slavery? Amazing.

I thinh that he was referring to wage slavery.



Does no one need to work for a living under communism?

Most likely one would find a career which would best suit their interests (since everyone would have the opportunity to pursue their interests rather than being forced into wage slavery, and a job which they dislike because of their lack of capital) and work along with others interested in that career choice (could be seen as coworkers of sort) and they would decide together the amount of hours and such, along with working with the community on what would be needed so they would work towards those needs of the community.


And we still get paid and have our needs met anyway?

Well, you would not get paid in the sense of money, but yes your needs would be met regardless. I realize though, that you&#39;ll undoubtedly ask, "Well why would anyone want to work if their needs are going to be met regardless? To which I would respond, because of the social gratification which would arise as a result of your efforts. If someone just plays tennis all day with a friend for instance they would likely not garner much respect within their community. Their decisions within the community may not carry as much weight. However, if these same two people decided to work with manufacturing and distributing tennis rackets, then they would have a definite say in the amount of tennis rackets which could be produced, and the amount which was needed. So as you can see, working can give you benefits to a larger access of things that you enjoy.

It should be noted though that if someone plays tennis rather well and enjoys it then that could become their job, to enthrall people. Sort of like the gladiators of Roman times except without coercion on part of the participants, and without bloodshed. However, I should note that I wouldn&#39;t understand why someone would not want to work on something in order to benefit the community. Firstly humans want to be accepted or have a sense of belonging, so they would likely contribute in a way in which was suitable for them in order to achieve this. Secondly, by benefiting the community more often times than not you will benefit yourself (tennis rackets example).

I should further note that the work which I have been referring here can also be writing, painting, sculpting, and other creative forms of expression.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 08:26 pm


A job = Slavery? Amazing.

In class terms, this is true. The ruling class give us payment for our work (the value of which dictated by them of course) then they take it back off us in the form of rent, utility bills, taxes, etc. giving us just enough left over to eat without any significant amount left over to use to elevate our status. When you consider the slaves of plantations were at least afforded amenities such as shelter, food etc the analogy holds more truth than you acknowledge. The only difference is aesthetic, our poverty becomes the ball and chain.

[luxemburg89]

No, it was a serious question that you failed to even remotely answer.


I did answer you fuckwit. The answer may have been inadequate, and a digression, but it was still an answer. For example:

"what colour is the sky?"
"Mari3l is a dickhead" came the reply.

still an answer to a question - it just doesnt make sense in that context; so the answer is inadequate, but still an answer.

[Tungsten]

I thinh that he was referring to wage slavery.
That&#39;s a misnomer.

Most likely one would find a career which would best suit their interests (since everyone would have the opportunity to pursue their interests rather than being forced into wage slavery, and a job which they dislike because of their lack of capital)
So we can all follow our interests without worring about costs and without regard to societies wants or needs? That sounds like a recipe for disaster.

and work along with others interested in that career choice (could be seen as coworkers of sort) and they would decide together the amount of hours and such,
Choose your own working hours? Sounds good. I&#39;ll choose what everyone else is likely to choose: Zero.

along with working with the community on what would be needed so they would work towards those needs of the community.
That sounds like someone trying to pull me away from a career that would suit my interests and pushing me into a job I don&#39;t want.

Well, you would not get paid in the sense of money, but yes your needs would be met regardless.
By who? Eveyrone&#39;s pursuing they own interests and theirs may very well clash with mine. Back to class warfare again.

"Well why would anyone want to work if their needs are going to be met regardless? To which I would respond, because of the social gratification which would arise as a result of your efforts.
Work for no purpose won&#39;t bring me social gratification any more than blowing myself up will bring me 5000 virgins. Being made a sucker of isn&#39;t a usually source of gratification for anyone other than a sucker.

Want proof? How may people on the dole work for the purpose of "social gratification"? I bet I could count the number on one hand. Why not? There&#39;s no point; their needs are met already. What do you envision happening in a society where there&#39;s even less incentive to work and an even greater incentive to felch?

If someone just plays tennis all day with a friend for instance they would likely not garner much respect within their community.
Oh no, I wouldn&#39;t be respected by my community&#33; What a terrible punishment&#33;

This is about as utopian at it gets. You&#39;ve really set the bar high this time.

[Publius]

Wouldn&#39;t the producers in communist society, those who actually work in producing physical goods like food and cars and computers, quickly become angry at people who take the fruits of their labor without actually seeming to produce anything of value? Unless everyone did a perfectly equal amount of work there would always be some difference in labor, which would always give rise to some resentment. Or so it seems to me.

Wouldn&#39;t it make much more sense to create an entirely new type of market mechanism to deal with just this sort of problem?

[Oedipus Complex]

Tungsten


That&#39;s a misnomer.

Stop being ridiculous.


So we can all follow our interests without worring about costs and without regard to societies wants or needs? That sounds like a recipe for disaster.

If you would have read further I state at the end of the paragraph the following: "along with working with the community on what would be needed so they would work towards those needs of the community". Clearly you need a balance between needs and interests.


Choose your own working hours? Sounds good. I&#39;ll choose what everyone else is likely to choose: Zero.

That wouldn&#39;t be logical. People will not willingly allow themselves to starve just because they don&#39;t want to work. In fact you would probably definitely want to work because then you get to have a definite say in the amount produced, distributed, and your life would be better off as a result. You seem to think helping the community doesn&#39;t benefit the individual which is obviously not the case.


That sounds like someone trying to pull me away from a career that would suit my interests and pushing me into a job I don&#39;t want.

How? You&#39;re not being coerced like in Capitalism. People are very unique and have different capabilities and aptitudes, when given the chance to apply them, but as usual they are only held back through Capitalism&#39;s unequal balance of wealth and lack of resources for the unfortunate.


By who? Eveyrone&#39;s pursuing they own interests and theirs may very well clash with mine. Back to class warfare again.

What are you talking about? This is very simple; everyone produces and everyone gets enough in order to have a decent life. Your pursuits will not be limited as long as you aren&#39;t obstructing others needs.


Work for no purpose won&#39;t bring me social gratification any more than blowing myself up will bring me 5000 virgins. Being made a sucker of isn&#39;t a usually source of gratification for anyone other than a sucker.

Yes, it may not be social gratification that invigorates people but personal satisfaction possibly. You&#39;re thinking in terms that people will still crave money, which is not the case as that extrinsic award of money would have been eliminated. Further, your statement that work in a communist society has no purpose is false, if nobody worked then nothing would get done, and people have an instinctual reaction to avoid death. People want to improve the quality of their lives and the best way to do this is to work, contribute to the community so things will actually get done.


Want proof? How may people on the dole work for the purpose of "social gratification"? I bet I could count the number on one hand. Why not? There&#39;s no point; their needs are met already. What do you envision happening in a society where there&#39;s even less incentive to work and an even greater incentive to felch?

Your reasoning seems to be based upon the fact that you&#39;re trying to incorporate "to each according to his ability to each according to his needs" in a capitalist society, which of course is not possible. And yes there is a point to working when you&#39;re needs have already been met; such as working to improve the community which will help yourself also. Suppose there are pot holes in the road, so, are you telling me nobody is going to fix the problem just because their needs have already been reached? The incentives to work just don&#39;t come with money. As I have said before personal satisfaction could come with work or better relationships with the community or mutual benefit from community and individual.


Oh no, I wouldn&#39;t be respected by my community&#33; What a terrible punishment&#33;

Yes actually this could be a large deal. People may not treat you as well; you may not receive extra help when it would benefit you, your ideas on the distribution of commodities may not have much of an impact than say someone who is working. (although one&#39;s needs would still be met of course)



This is about as utopian at it gets. You&#39;ve really set the bar high this time.

Actually no, it&#39;s based on simple understanding of humans, they can work together under the right circumstances.

[pusher robot]

Further, your statement that work in a communist society has no purpose is false, if nobody worked then nothing would get done, and people have an instinctual reaction to avoid death.

That doesn&#39;t refute his point, which is that your theory does nothing to address the free rider problem. Practically everyone&#39;s preferences in a communist society are, in order:
1. Everybody else works but me, I live well anyways.
2. Everyone and myself works, I live well.
3. I don&#39;t work and nobody else does, I starve.
4. I work but nobody else does, I starve anyways.

The only choice you have control over is whether or not you yourself will work. So your possible outcomes are (1,2) or (3,4) depending on whether other people work or not. Since 1>2 and 3>4, your dominant strategy is not to work. If everbody else works, you end up better off. If nobody else works, you still end up better off. Since you can&#39;t control what other people do, it&#39;s the logical choice.

[Publius]

That doesn&#39;t refute his point, which is that your theory does nothing to address the free rider problem. Practically everyone&#39;s preferences in a communist society are, in order:
1. Everybody else works but me, I live well anyways.
2. Everyone and myself works, I live well.
3. I don&#39;t work and nobody else does, I starve.
4. I work but nobody else does, I starve anyways.

The only choice you have control over is whether or not you yourself will work. So your possible outcomes are (1,2) or (3,4) depending on whether other people work or not. Since 1>2 and 3>4, your dominant strategy is not to work. If everbody else works, you end up better off. If nobody else works, you still end up better off. Since you can&#39;t control what other people do, it&#39;s the logical choice.

That&#39;s just bourgeois game theory&#33; Under communism people would do exactly the opposite of what you demonstrated there, therefore communism will work&#33;

That&#39;s the fun of being on the left now, I can satirize it and you won&#39;t know if I&#39;m kididng.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 11:41 pm

Bollocks to this shit, it&#39;s a bad thread.

Jobs "support capitalism" in their way, but that doesn&#39;t matter, every worker needs to sell their labour power to survive.

Fuck&#39;s sake, learn your shit people.

It isn&#39;t just &#39;capitalism&#39; that&#39;s being discussed here. If you work at a mall in a shop that sells nike you deal with the sweatshop issues. If you work at a coffee shop you have fair trade issues. If you work at a lumber yard you have to deal with deforestation.

The original question should have probably been &#39;how do you all deal with being sit and wait saps&#39; in a fairly open system where you often have the choice to avoid it&#39;s corruptions. (i.e. don&#39;t buy nike, don&#39;t work for nike directly or indirectly, don&#39;t work for the fur industry etc..) I know these are very basic examples.

My intentions for this thread were not to have it be &#39;a bad thread&#39;, nor was it to instigate a fight in any way.
Everything that is made can be said to be "dripping with workers&#39; blood" to paraphrase a part of Jack London&#39;s The Iron Heel. People have no choice but to end up purchasing commodities and selling labour-power. There is no such thing as "living outside of capitalism" in a capitalist society. That "living outside of capitalism" is a punkie-hippie concept, not a Marxist one. The only way to deal with it is to get involved in organizational work and build up a Bolshevik party that is capable of leading the toiling masses to victory.

[Oedipus Complex]

pusher robot


The only choice you have control over is whether or not you yourself will work. So your possible outcomes are (1,2) or (3,4) depending on whether other people work or not. Since 1>2 and 3>4, your dominant strategy is not to work. If everbody else works, you end up better off. If nobody else works, you still end up better off. Since you can&#39;t control what other people do, it&#39;s the logical choice.

I can&#39;t control what others do yes, but If I choose not to work and still want to receive the benefits which society produces then, I will have minimal say in the distribution, or manufacturing of these objects since workers councils will mainly decide them (along with the community, but not as large a part as the workers themselves). Also, as I have said before you will not be looked at with too much respect, and people will definitely not be bending backwards over for you if you choose to be a free rider. Remember this could be a big deal where local suggestions can play a large part in the distribution of goods. And if you are a known free rider then you&#39;re suggestions may not be taken into account as much as others (you will still receive enough to live though). And as always boredom will set in, so you will likely choose to work on something that you like so, a) you don&#39;t hate working, b) you have a larger say on how much is produced. It works in your self interest to work so you can enjoy a better living for yourself.

[Ele'ill]

I did answer you fuckwit. The answer may have been inadequate, and a digression, but it was still an answer. For example:

"what colour is the sky?"
"Mari3l is a dickhead" came the reply.

still an answer to a question - it just doesnt make sense in that context; so the answer is inadequate, but still an answer.


Yeah, right. ;)



What can you do everyone has bills to pay.

Not true. There are extremeists, although I find them rather disattatched from reality, that become homeless to escape the system they&#39;re in. &#39;Crust punks&#39; and what not. The alternative is to do what was mentioned briefly and be self sufficient as a writer, artist, photographer etc.. You can&#39;t escape taxes and such but you can eliminate association with parts of the system that you disagree with it may make you more content.


Everything that is made can be said to be "dripping with workers&#39; blood" to paraphrase a part of Jack London&#39;s The Iron Heel. People have no choice but to end up purchasing commodities and selling labour-power. There is no such thing as "living outside of capitalism" in a capitalist society.

Yes, we live in a capitalist society and cannot avoid all of its grasp but we can make an effort in avoiding the things we can. For example, a kid shopping at banana republic wearing a tshirt with Che on it. Demonstrators at a rally, anywhere, wearing Gap. In the big picture, these may seem weak. But why not avoid what we can avoid.


Thanks for the replies to this topic.

[Punkerslut]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 04:14 pm
Wouldn&#39;t the producers in communist society, those who actually work in producing physical goods like food and cars and computers, quickly become angry at people who take the fruits of their labor without actually seeming to produce anything of value? Unless everyone did a perfectly equal amount of work there would always be some difference in labor, which would always give rise to some resentment. Or so it seems to me.

Wouldn&#39;t it make much more sense to create an entirely new type of market mechanism to deal with just this sort of problem?
The idea of collectivized ownership of the means of production means that the people possess the right to control and operate their economy. To create a structure that grants certain wages for certain occupations, that allocates machinery and capital to industry that requires development, etc., etc., these are all things that lie within the power of the worker in a classless society. Each individual holds an equal ability to direct what should be put into effect economically, just as a non-authoritarian, democratic government gives an equal voice to each person in the functioning of civil society.

If the people of society feel that their labor and the social product are not fairly distributed, they possess the means of directly altering the operation of the economy for their own ends. In a Capitalist society, only a few possess this right, and they are not the actual prodicers of the social product.

[Idola Mentis]

It isn&#39;t just &#39;capitalism&#39; that&#39;s being discussed here. If you work at a mall in a shop that sells nike you deal with the sweatshop issues. If you work at a coffee shop you have fair trade issues. If you work at a lumber yard you have to deal with deforestation.

As you hint at, it&#39;s even more entangled than that. Just like in the days of legal slavery, there&#39;s blood in our sugar, in our coke, and on out clothes. Capitalism is the support structure we live within, and it saturates everything.

This is in part why the prospect of a revolution frightens me. The branch is rotten, but we&#39;re still sitting on it.


The original question should have probably been &#39;how do you all deal with being sit and wait saps&#39; in a fairly open system where you often have the choice to avoid it&#39;s corruptions. (i.e. don&#39;t buy nike, don&#39;t work for nike directly or indirectly, don&#39;t work for the fur industry etc..) I know these are very basic examples.

Thanks to propaganda and advertising industries, there&#39;s little accurate information available to the public on the flow of resources, except in the most general ways. Each individual does not have the data processing capacity or skills to make a competent, ethical choice in every allocation of the resources allocated to us. Organizations dedicated to the purpose do little better, as they&#39;re being actively blocked, even physically attacked where seen as a threat.

I deal pretty poorly with being a sit and wait sap. I know a fair bit about where my tax money goes, where the funds for my studies comes from and where they go, and how I&#39;m expected to use the skills I&#39;m aquiring. It physically sickens me.

But I&#39;m married, I rent an apartment, and I need to eat. My footprint isn&#39;t very big, as the Socialist Paradise of Norway is keeping its students living at between .5 or .6 below the poverty limit, but it&#39;s there. So every day, wether it&#39;s a cup of coffee or my rent, I&#39;m giving money to people who will pass them on to organizations I detest, people who will use them to perpetuate a horrific state of affairs.

If it was as simple as making informed choices, then I&#39;d do that. I&#39;d be a happy capitalist, knowing that the nightmare that is the world today is the result of individual choices, of the sheer fucking idiocy of the majority, and I&#39;d probably look for work at a good charity or some bunch of moralizing band-aid pushers, trying my very best to shovel the guilt for all this shit onto regular people in the hope that they&#39;d repent.

But that&#39;s not how it is. We are not given true choices. We&#39;ve been suckered into thinking that the choice between clown burger and king burger is a real choice, that being allowed to choose between spending your pittance on food or shelter is freedom. Free choices only takes place when you had a hand in shaping the options. When was the last time that happened to you?

[Led Zeppelin]

I work part-time as a mailman.

It sucks.

[Ele'ill]

This is in part why the prospect of a revolution frightens me. The branch is rotten, but we&#39;re still sitting on it.

Yes, and the demand for a &#39;revolution&#39; sort of implies in many cases that there will be a sudden shift in political/economic influence. This would mark the beginning of many wars unrelated to the revolution and with it, many deaths.



I deal pretty poorly with being a sit and wait sap. I know a fair bit about where my tax money goes, where the funds for my studies comes from and where they go, and how I&#39;m expected to use the skills I&#39;m aquiring. It physically sickens me

Not sure if you&#39;re familiar with the magazine &#39;Adbusters&#39;. One of my favorite media objects although it depresses me to read it some times. This magazine sort of touches on the corporate money flow side of the world.


But that&#39;s not how it is. We are not given true choices. We&#39;ve been suckered into thinking that the choice between clown burger and king burger is a real choice, that being allowed to choose between spending your pittance on food or shelter is freedom. Free choices only takes place when you had a hand in shaping the options. When was the last time that happened to you?

I think the choices we&#39;re given are silly. I try to think outside the box. Fantasy can be reality if your actions make it so. Make it happen, prove to yourself that you can do something. I pay bills with items i&#39;ve taken out of the trash, mainly from major corporations. (I say major corporations because they usually have the most profitable items in their trash, it&#39;s not so much a statement as it is realistic) My vacation to the shore is via hitchhiking and sleeping on the street. There are tons of other things one can do. Be creative and do so for yourself, not for others. As a comfortably capitalistic moderate I know once said, "real revolutionaries don&#39;t worry about the revolution, they change the world by being who they are".

[luxemburg89]

Yes, and the demand for a &#39;revolution&#39; sort of implies in many cases that there will be a sudden shift in political/economic influence. This would mark the beginning of many wars unrelated to the revolution and with it, many deaths.


Hmmm. I can assure you that, deep in our hearts, we don&#39;t want anyone to die really (well except Nazis). I am hoping the &#39;revolution&#39; will come out of an economic crisis, like a major world crash and as such as much violence as possible can be avoided. Yet I believe in the &#39;revolution&#39; for want of a better word and if, by force, we must remove the capitalist and (possibly in the future) fascist leaders then so be it. I must stress war will only be reached through necessity - it is not in our nature, I would hope, to want all out war. The world has seen enough death of innocent workers and thinkers on both sides of warring states.

[Lark]

I&#39;ve worked as a shelf stacker, a receptionist, a couple of admin and secretarial posts, I&#39;ve made a little money writing but nothing you could live on, it just supplements my income.

I trade books on Amazon, it started out as an effort to clear books, make me more conscious of spending and stop hoarding but now I can make some neat profits on my sales too, I picked up a book for £2 in a bargain bin which is being sold by amazon for £62 and traded by marketplace sellers for upwards of £114, I bought a book on socialism by a pre-war author I like for £10 and its now worth something in the region of £80.

I dont think it does any good to become obsessive about what you do everyday and the full implications, the libertarian movement in the US only made its members or supporters miserable when they were frustrated by their inability to all become shop keepers or live the independent life of frontier log cabin, tax evading/refusing, cottage industrialists.

[NorthStarRepublicML]

Security guard at downtown appartment building, 3rd shift (11pm-7am) .....

beat that&#33;

[luxemburg89]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 10:22 am
Security guard at downtown appartment building, 3rd shift (11pm-7am) .....

beat that&#33;
&#39;Is that your truncheon or are you just pleased to see me?&#39;

[Ol' Dirty]

I&#39;m a student right now, but I want to grow up to be a lawyer.

Laugh if you must.

Also, I&#39;m a proffesional drag queen just for kicks.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 01:38 pm
I work part-time as a mailman.

It sucks.
I wish I could get in the post office; over here in the US, the average wage of a full-time postal worker is around &#036;57K per year, plus good insurance benefits and Cost of Living Adjustments (COLA&#39;s).



Yes, we live in a capitalist society and cannot avoid all of its grasp but we can make an effort in avoiding the things we can. For example, a kid shopping at banana republic wearing a tshirt with Che on it. Demonstrators at a rally, anywhere, wearing Gap. In the big picture, these may seem weak. But why not avoid what we can avoid.

What is the point? It is just trading one proprietor for another. And regardless of where I buy something from, the standards of living around the world, even over here in the USA, continue to plummet while a small handful of rich people that do very little, if any work continue to gain record profits. No matter where you get something, you can&#39;t escape dropping living standards, union busting, outsourcing, etc. in a capitalist system. History has shown repeatedly that concessions to workers under capitalism cannot last. As Lenin put it, they give something with one hand only to take it back with another hand at a later time. The gains made during the 1930&#39;s militant strikes and the postwar boom are being totally demolished.


Yes, and the demand for a &#39;revolution&#39; sort of implies in many cases that there will be a sudden shift in political/economic influence. This would mark the beginning of many wars unrelated to the revolution and with it, many deaths.

How so? The Bolshevik revolution had very little bloodshed. The bloodbath came when nearly two dozen capitalist imperialist armies invaded the USSR. The USSR was fighting for its survival and had every right to suppress the foreign invaders and their internal agents. Captialism&#39;s track record for deaths is far worse than Stalinism even: Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Pinochet, Suharto, Hirohito, the Contras, mass starvation on a world scale every year, millions dying from simple diseases eradictaed long ago in the West, etc.

The revolutions that brought capitalism into existence didn&#39;t treat their foes very well, i.e. Oliver Cromwell, Jacobins, etc. Pacifism has never been what settled decisive things.

Captialism made all kinds of advances to the productive forces during the industrial revoulution. The fact that it can&#39;t develop the productive forces as it did in the past proves that it is no longer capable of playing a progressive role and has paved the way for socialism.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Wouldn&#39;t the producers in communist society, those who actually work in producing physical goods like food and cars and computers, quickly become angry at people who take the fruits of their labor without actually seeming to produce anything of value? Unless everyone did a perfectly equal amount of work there would always be some difference in labor, which would always give rise to some resentment. Or so it seems to me.

According to the communist doctrine, I guess robots and machines are suppose to do all of the work that humans don&#39;t want to do. But of course, someone needs to man the army of producing machines....I guess the nerd communists can do that?

I&#39;ll be on my hammock smoking my rationed cigarettes before the assholes in my "community" (if a thing even exists anymore) take them away from me.


I wish I could get in the post office; over here in the US, the average wage of a full-time postal worker is around &#036;57K per year, plus good insurance benefits and Cost of Living Adjustments (COLA&#39;s).


Have you taken a look at the workers at your local post office?&#33;

It looks like you&#39;ve walked into a police lineup or a Star Trek convention.


What are you talking about? This is very simple; everyone produces and everyone gets enough in order to have a decent life. Your pursuits will not be limited as long as you aren&#39;t obstructing others needs.

Sounds a lot like...um...capitalism in America.

Yes, there are many people with yachts but almost everybody in this country has a roof over their heads along with a personal car and money to blow on booze and cigarettes.

Seriously guys, give it up already&#33;



Most likely one would find a career which would best suit their interests (since everyone would have the opportunity to pursue their interests rather than being forced into wage slavery, and a job which they dislike because of their lack of capital) and work along with others interested in that career choice (could be seen as coworkers of sort) and they would decide together the amount of hours and such, along with working with the community on what would be needed so they would work towards those needs of the community.

Sounds a lot like...um...capitalism.



I should further note that the work which I have been referring here can also be writing, painting, sculpting, and other creative forms of expression.

What if you&#39;re not a creative person and you would rather run around and punch people and kick their pets or in an extreme case scenario, blowing up buildings with 747 airplanes?


If someone just plays tennis all day with a friend for instance they would likely not garner much respect within their community.

This sounds just like...um...capitalism.

[Rawthentic]

According to the communist doctrine, I guess robots and machines are suppose to do all of the work that humans don&#39;t want to do. But of course, someone needs to man the army of producing machines....I guess the nerd communists can do that?
What the hell? :lol: The people do it, it is an "association of free producers" where the people completely control the means of production.


Sounds a lot like...um...capitalism in America.
Yeah...the capitalists are so productful, they do all the work&#33; :lol: :lol:


Most likely one would find a career which would best suit their interests (since everyone would have the opportunity to pursue their interests rather than being forced into wage slavery, and a job which they dislike because of their lack of capital) and work along with others interested in that career choice (could be seen as coworkers of sort) and they would decide together the amount of hours and such, along with working with the community on what would be needed so they would work towards those needs of the community.
Is anybody else catching this idiocy?

[Ele'ill]

What is the point? It is just trading one proprietor for another. And regardless of where I buy something from, the standards of living around the world, even over here in the USA, continue to plummet while a small handful of rich people that do very little, if any work continue to gain record profits. No matter where you get something, you can&#39;t escape dropping living standards, union busting, outsourcing, etc. in a capitalist system. History has shown repeatedly that concessions to workers under capitalism cannot last. As Lenin put it, they give something with one hand only to take it back with another hand at a later time. The gains made during the 1930&#39;s militant strikes and the postwar boom are being totally demolished.

There are varying degrees of exploitation between companies. Put in the effort and do a little research so you know what to avoid. There is usually a lesser of two evils and sometimes, a company won&#39;t use exploitive practices, even though they contribute to a capitalist system.

One can buy food from whole foods market, yes it&#39;s a fortune 500 company and it sells products that are not fair trade, but if also offers products that ARE fair trade. Or you can eat at Mcdonalds, or shop at your local grocery that sells &#39;poorly treated animal meat&#39; (best way I can think to describe it), and other foods and simply say to yourself &#39;oh well no matter what I buy i&#39;m supporting capitalism so I guess I&#39;ll just binge.


How so? The Bolshevik revolution had very little bloodshed. The bloodbath came when nearly two dozen capitalist imperialist armies invaded the USSR. The USSR was fighting for its survival and had every right to suppress the foreign invaders and their internal agents.

I&#39;m not really read up on this particular portion of history. I can say that this is an example of a country being invaded while the current occupants strove to keep something. It&#39;s much harder to overturn a system in which a high percentage of the populations A. Is content B. Doesn&#39;t even know what a communist or anarchist is.






Captialism&#39;s track record for deaths is far worse than Stalinism even: Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Pinochet, Suharto, Hirohito, the Contras, mass starvation on a world scale every year, millions dying from simple diseases eradictaed long ago in the West, etc.

Agreed. But make the masses care. If you do it through violence, they will only see what they believe is the common truth; What is portrayed on the nightly news.



Captialism made all kinds of advances to the productive forces during the industrial revoulution. The fact that it can&#39;t develop the productive forces as it did in the past proves that it is no longer capable of playing a progressive role and has paved the way for socialism.

I&#39;m not sure what you&#39;re replying to here. If you could post a quote of what I said that made you think to type this I would appreciate it. :huh:

[Capitalist Lawyer]

What the hell? laugh.gif The people do it, it is an "association of free producers" where the people completely control the means of production.

Sounds like free-market capitalism without the usual government and market barriers to entry.

Someday, we will have true free-market capitalism.


Yeah...the capitalists are so productful, they do all the work&#33;

Capitalists (of all sizes) are part of the labor process as well.

They also provide the necessary capital that creates work.


Is anybody else catching this idiocy?

Are you calling a fellow comrade an idiot?

Awwww...I&#39;m telling on you.

[ZX3]

Originally posted by Oedipus [email protected] 29, 2007 07:11 pm
[
Most likely one would find a career which would best suit their interests (since everyone would have the opportunity to pursue their interests rather than being forced into wage slavery, and a job which they dislike because of their lack of capital) and work along with others interested in that career choice (could be seen as coworkers of sort) and they would decide together the amount of hours and such, along with working with the community on what would be needed so they would work towards those needs of the community.


But if what if nobody community wants from you what your particular interest is?

And why should the producer of goods be in a position to tell the community how many goods they are prepared to produce?

[Idola Mentis]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 06, 2007 12:34 am
Sounds like free-market capitalism without the usual government and market barriers to entry.

Someday, we will have true free-market capitalism.
Half a point to you, bright eyes. One day, we&#39;ll have a free market. But it won&#39;t be capitalist. A capitalist free market is a contradiction in terms.

[Axel1917]

Have you taken a look at the workers at your local post office?&#33;

It looks like you&#39;ve walked into a police lineup or a Star Trek convention.

They don&#39;t look well-off, but ads I have seen in the paper for postal positions often start at around US &#036;18.00 to &#036;20.00 per hour, with full federal benefits. The problem is that I can&#39;t find a position anywhere where I intend to move.


There are varying degrees of exploitation between companies. Put in the effort and do a little research so you know what to avoid. There is usually a lesser of two evils and sometimes, a company won&#39;t use exploitive practices, even though they contribute to a capitalist system.

"Lesser evil" is still "evil." The living standards also continue to plummet, a thing that really affects the bulk of the working class population.


One can buy food from whole foods market, yes it&#39;s a fortune 500 company and it sells products that are not fair trade, but if also offers products that ARE fair trade. Or you can eat at Mcdonalds, or shop at your local grocery that sells &#39;poorly treated animal meat&#39; (best way I can think to describe it), and other foods and simply say to yourself &#39;oh well no matter what I buy i&#39;m supporting capitalism so I guess I&#39;ll just binge.

And regardless, this shopping change isn&#39;t going to raise my standard of living.


I&#39;m not really read up on this particular portion of history. I can say that this is an example of a country being invaded while the current occupants strove to keep something. It&#39;s much harder to overturn a system in which a high percentage of the populations A. Is content B. Doesn&#39;t even know what a communist or anarchist is.


Agreed. But make the masses care. If you do it through violence, they will only see what they believe is the common truth; What is portrayed on the nightly news.

Capitalism itself was brought in through violence. Under plummeting conditions, other conditions and change in consciousness do develop. And not a whole lot of violence happens when a small rich minority finds no one to fight for it. According to John Reed&#39;s eyewitness book, Ten Days That Shook the World, only something like 500 revolutionaries fell taking the city of Moscow. The German 1918 revolution was bloodless itself (this revolution, like so many in recent history, was destroyed by betrayal of the Social-Democratic leaders. Further betrayal by Stalin greatly assisted Hitler&#39;s rise to power later on in the 1930&#39;s.).

Furthermore, life itself teaches, and when standards of living go down, with no way to keep them up, they will get more militant. We can see this process unfolding in Latin America, particularly in Venezuela.


I&#39;m not sure what you&#39;re replying to here. If you could post a quote of what I said that made you think to type this I would appreciate it. :huh:

I was trying to further, stating that capitalism has outlived its useful purpose. It is not capable of playing any progressive role anymore, especially in the ex-colonial countries. The historical epoch of the industrial revolution can no longer be made again by capitalism, i.e. make a big stride in the productive forces, or to make production come to a much higher level, to make the current way seem as obsolete as the cotton gin and artisans making things in small shops, often by hand or hand tools. Life sometimes even proves things in odd or distorted ways - in spite of its bureaucratic deformations, the Stalinist USSR proved the superiority of a planned economy, quickly turning an utterly backward nation into a world superpower. Captialism today in Russia isn&#39;t doing that.


Half a point to you, bright eyes. One day, we&#39;ll have a free market. But it won&#39;t be capitalist. A capitalist free market is a contradiction in terms.


A capitalist free market is free indeed - free for the capitalists.

[Ele'ill]

"Lesser evil" is still "evil." The living standards also continue to plummet, a thing that really affects the bulk of the working class population.

Yeah they&#39;re both evil but for the &#39;greater good of human kind&#39; wouldn&#39;t you pick the one that harms workers and people the least?


And regardless, this shopping change isn&#39;t going to raise my standard of living.

Neither is doing nothing.


Furthermore, life itself teaches, and when standards of living go down, with no way to keep them up, they will get more militant. We can see this process unfolding in Latin America, particularly in Venezuela

I guess it&#39;s really a choice to be violent in many cases. Also to the larger part of what you wrote above that I didn&#39;t copy as a quote, What exactly are you trying to say? What do you think is going to happen? I see lots of opinions of historical events but not a lot of forethought into what is going to happen.


I was trying to further, stating that capitalism has outlived its useful purpose.

Ok. I don&#39;t support capitalism so this is a non-issue in this thread I guess. I don&#39;t want to deviate into a massive sub discussion.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

They don&#39;t look well-off, but ads I have seen in the paper for postal positions often start at around US &#036;18.00 to &#036;20.00 per hour, with full federal benefits. The problem is that I can&#39;t find a position anywhere where I intend to move.

But the work environment sucks the big one.

Have fun standing on your feet for hours on end and listening to everybody complain how much they hate standing on their feet for hours on end and doing work that will never end unless Earth is hit by a comet or a global nuclear war breaks out.

Why else do you think David Berkowitz went insane?


A capitalist free market is free indeed - free for the capitalists.

And you are free to become a capitalist or you may sell your labor power to any capitalist of your choosing and in essence they are free to not buy your labor power.

Capitalism: It just is.


I&#39;m a student right now, but I want to grow up to be a lawyer.

Don&#39;t Go to Law School (http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110008556)

Law School: The Big Lie (http://www.calicocat.com/2004/08/law-school-big-lie.html)


A capitalist free market is a contradiction in terms.

How so?

[cubist]

Firstly Having to work is a requirement of Capitalism the need to live and ensure ones survival forced by over inflated prices on necessary items.

as far as i see it working for the state is supporting democracy democracy is not a capitalist ideal capitalists present democracy as a facade to the proleteriat, Really the Choice is lieing thieving murdering wanker A. B. or C.

now that said and done,

Working for the state there are areas which are a no go

ARMY
POLICE
Special services. (mi5 etc)
These are not good socialist jobs becuase you have to take orders and act on those orders these orders will be against the Left Ideals

But

Teacher
Doctor
Social worker
public Defense Lawyer assigned by the court (legal AID)
nurse
School helper
nursery nurse
childminder
Engineer for national companies like power stations or food production companies (milk, Bread)
water companies
Councils
Farmer
postman

but Really
you can do any job that isn&#39;t in direct conflict with your interests. YOU have to WORK to LIVE so subjecting yourself to working inside companies is a necessity to survive (call centers, banks, telcoms companies, supermarkets etc.)

im sure you gonna say blah blah blah supermarket this and that.

but as long as the company you work for isn&#39;t violating human rights or doesn&#39;t profit from teh arms trade Etc i see no problem with working for them becuase you have to work to live and which mean syou have to prop up the system.

If the working class stopped working the world as you know it would stop. you rely on us we dont rely on you

That does mean that fuel companies are out, and wokring for nestle and coca cola and mcdonalds is a no go.


i have workined for several companies

and paid far too much tax so im finally going to uni

To do biomedical Science and forensic toxicology

What i do after that is unknow ther are many possibilities.

and no im not going to work for CSI lol,

[People&#39;s Councillor]

I&#39;m an actor, and have been since I was five. I think that says something about commitment, but maybe I&#39;m just crazy.

[Idola Mentis]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 07, 2007 03:48 am

A capitalist free market is a contradiction in terms.

How so?
A free market requires that its participants have created the market in the first place, decides what will be bought and sold, and are free to act independently within the market. Seems nice.

But capitalism guarantees the existence of dependency. It stops a large proportion of the market participants from acting independently. Those who have more capital controls the market. Since basic necessities are made part of the market, those who do not have capital, and can&#39;t control the market, become dependent on those who do. A market that is created, defined and participated in only by a tiny minority of those who rely on it for their existence is not free in any sense of the term.

Just to salt the wound, systems of unsufficiently restrained competition mechanically escalates, degrading standards and eroding boundaries. For example, think about what would happen if you made helmets optional in hockey. Do I need to paint you a picture? It would have lots of blood and brains smeared all over the ice.

This ties in with the jobs question. You either participate in the "free" job market on the capital owner&#39;s terms, or you go feral. In the west, the escalation has been fought back against, some places to a standstill, some places even reversed somewhat - for now. But mechanism is still there, and the pressure mounts. Other places, the escalation has been allowed to go as far as it can without actually dropping to 19th century sugar slavery levels - people&#39;s lives are shortened, their spare time is minimal or nonexistent, but workers are not yet commonly, directly, literally, worked to death.

What markets do you, personally have access to? Where you there when they decided what would be available there?

[Ele'ill]

you can do any job that isn&#39;t in direct conflict with your interests.

Bingo. Any job that you&#39;re comfortable taking. It won&#39;t violate your personal beliefs and won&#39;t make you a hypocrite. Many on the left and right and elsewhere are lifestyle hypocrites; The left as an example may rant about economic exploitation and globalization then say they can work for anyone because &#39;it&#39;s a capitalist economy, I hate it but I have no choice.&#39; (Not a strawman, every group either social or political does this and we all known it.) There are plenty of choices. I make mine so that I can sleep at night.

[Oedipus Complex]

Is anybody else catching this idiocy?

How?

[Idola Mentis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 12:47 am

you can do any job that isn&#39;t in direct conflict with your interests.

Bingo. Any job that you&#39;re comfortable taking. It won&#39;t violate your personal beliefs and won&#39;t make you a hypocrite. Many on the left and right and elsewhere are lifestyle hypocrites; The left as an example may rant about economic exploitation and globalization then say they can work for anyone because &#39;it&#39;s a capitalist economy, I hate it but I have no choice.&#39; (Not a strawman, every group either social or political does this and we all known it.) There are plenty of choices. I make mine so that I can sleep at night.
Seen on an individual point of view, yes, that could work. On the communal scale, no, not good enough.

Assuming that we all make the choice you describe, living the "ideologically pure" lifestyle, we run into a number of problems. As a gesture, it&#39;s fine, and admirable. But if it impairs your ability to make a difference, to participate and wield some power in your society, it&#39;s worse than a waste.

We all compromise ourselves to some degree or other - that&#39;s part of getting along with other human beings, which we need to do to be alive. But with the fog of disinformation and truthiness we live under, it is impossible for everyone to draw a line, to choose to what degree it is acceptable to compromise ourselves.

If we at all participate in this unethical system, we must accept the possibility that our labour goes toward all kinds of unethical ends. While you can pick any one profession and proclaim it free of "taint", you have no real basis for saying so. All professions exist in a finely woven fabric, inseparable. Why encourage people to let their lives disintegrate, isolate themselves to achieve a task which might have no effect at all, rather than getting in wherever they can, and doing something tangible and worthwile?

If a McJob is what will keep me afloat today, you have no right to scoff at me for not starving and begging my various gods for a perfect job tomorrow. That you were lucky enough to find a job which you can convince yourself will absolve you of the crimes of the empire which feeds you and pampers you does not award you that right. Conversely, withdrawal from the relatively privileged position people in the west have been given does not give us any greater moral authority or make us any more of an agent of real change. After all, it would mean abandoning a position in which our voice could actually count, for a place among the invisible millions we are all helping to keep silent.

That some jobs appear to require less ideological compromise is no comfort for those who can&#39;t get them, and no basis for general advice on how to choose a profession.

[Axel1917]

Yeah they&#39;re both evil but for the &#39;greater good of human kind&#39; wouldn&#39;t you pick the one that harms workers and people the least?

A small proprietor is often just as, it not more, oppressive than larger ones. And the property relations remain the same regardless.


Neither is doing nothing.

I am not doing nothing. I am active in working class movements, studying events, etc. Not everyone at this site just sits around on the Internet all day.


Furthermore, life itself teaches, and when standards of living go down, with no way to keep them up, they will get more militant. We can see this process unfolding in Latin America, particularly in Venezuela


I guess it&#39;s really a choice to be violent in many cases. Also to the larger part of what you wrote above that I didn&#39;t copy as a quote, What exactly are you trying to say? What do you think is going to happen? I see lots of opinions of historical events but not a lot of forethought into what is going to happen.

With these attacks on the living standards increasing, people are going to get sick of it eventually and get more militant. Sooner or later we are going to see similar working class militancy similar to that of the 1930&#39;s. When the democrats are discredited (they are the same as the GOP with minor differences), a mass party of labor will probably arise sooner or later. It will start out reformist, but it will be a good place for socialists to enter and orient to the working class. The working class moves through traditional organizations first. The right wing parties will fight back, and resort to anything they can to stop things, sabotage, agents, etc. Things have already come along way in the US - 10 years ago, not a lot of people really questioned anything. Now a lot of people are. There is still a long way to go, but at the same time, things have also gone a long way since the recent past.


Ok. I don&#39;t support capitalism so this is a non-issue in this thread I guess. I don&#39;t want to deviate into a massive sub discussion.

Perhaps not, but just choosing different shops isn&#39;t going to get rid of it either. It won&#39;t just collapse on its own. Capitalists always find a way out by squeezing the working class in a brutal manner if something isn&#39;t done.


But the work environment sucks the big one.

Have fun standing on your feet for hours on end and listening to everybody complain how much they hate standing on their feet for hours on end and doing work that will never end unless Earth is hit by a comet or a global nuclear war breaks out.

Why else do you think David Berkowitz went insane?


After years of this janitor job of mine, I am willing to try something else. My current work environment also "sucks the big one." Working in the summer cleaning a school that doesn&#39;t have air conditioning is not my idea of fun.

[ely]

I work in human services. yes there is an organisation that i work for that is shit. but that doesn&#39;t make my love for the job any less. more frustrating. my actual work concurs with my own values very well. i make a difference to someone&#39;s life every day and that is all i can do. would i love to overthrow the organisation and get rid of the fat cats? for sure. do i work with a bunch of capitalist and apathetic fuckwits who only care about paying off their credit cards, yes. but i do what i can for the people i&#39;m working for (the clients, not the shit organisation, the clients are my boss not the corporate dicks who get the paychecks and the &#39;top&#39; box on the org chart).

[blueeyedboy]

I&#39;m a college student in England and was once into the brainwashing ideology which is Marxism and its many variants which all basically follow the same pattern of trying to inflict cataclysmic change to society, change which WILL NOT HAPPEN.

I rejected Marxism, after spending many a day reading it and understanding it which isn&#39;t hard. A stateless, classless society over and over and over again which is implied in every sentence. How boring is reading Marx and his clones drone on about revolution and whatnot. The fact is there is no classes and no class consciousness, no class in itself and no class for itself. It is a deterministic ideology, stressing time and again how economic factors rule over us and how every flash of a smile and verbal exchange is governed by economics. Humans interpret things on the meaning these things have for them, it is not due to economics. When I&#39;m talking to someone, I&#39;m not constantly thinking of drastic fluctuations in the stock market or how much the next football boot is going to cost. I&#39;m having a conversation which I interpret and what follows is that this provides a meaning to me and I act on that meaning.

By the way, how is everyone. Sorry if I didn&#39;t explain why I don&#39;t beleive in classes. I&#39;m sure the leftists will jump on that point in attempting to criticise my post, but I&#39;m tired. I will explain tomorrow.

[blueeyedboy]

Criticism of the class concept

Class is an abstract concept said to exist by Marxists and their variants where certain individuals are supposedly grouped together under a umbrella term known as a class. This is based soley on their economic well-being and dexterity. The problem I have with this concept is how Marxists believe that all interaction is completed under economic scrutiny. Take the working class as an example. Marxists would say that the members of the working class all think and interact alike as a meaningful unit and they all have a common goal which is the emancipation of the working class from supposedly tyrannical rule. I interpret this as saying that individuality has no existence and that all the members of this particular class aim for one goal which I mentioned above. You could say the strikes in England in the 1980&#39;s are the proof that all the working class operated under one particular goal and that the economic situation provided momentum for the eventual outcome of committing mass strikes. I agree that it was joint action, however joint action caused by an interpretation based on the meaning this particular situation had for these individuals. After all, they are discrete individuals are they not? They saw together something unjustified and drew out a meaning from it, presumably unfairness and then made interpretation based on this meaning, namely the resultant action of mass strikes. The point I&#39;m trying to make is that this action wasn&#39;t a result of a class consciousness or of economic determinants, but of something less abstract. The people who made these strikes may not have thought of themselves as a working class but of people who are being treated unfairly and then decided to do something about it which I think seems reasonable.



The class concept used by Marxists is a way of grouping people and then manipulating them into believing that they are of a certain class and therefore of a certain quality of character. It makes the Marxist goals a lot easier if they can say this group of people are this and that group of people are like that. Marxists imply that the wealthy people are all morally inept and hate the people who work for them. It simply isn&#39;t true and all Marxists are doing are making an interpretation which is not more or less valid than anyone else&#39;s interpretation. They have that right and it would be wrong to stop what they are doing.

This is my first time trying to criticise the class concept from a symbolic interactionist perspective so go easy on me. Thanks for reading, if you do that is lol.

[MarcX]

Originally posted by Urban Spirit+May 29, 2007 03:11 pm--> (Urban Spirit @ May 29, 2007 03:11 pm)
[email protected] 29, 2007 01:49 pm
Something that has always bugged me about the left and the right is finding contentment in a job.
Surely everyone finds it hard to get "contentment" in a form of slavery?


What is there to do in the United States that pays enough to live on but doesn&#39;t support capitalism or something else that you reject (I know, nothing, right?).

Well, the problem is, we have to work. If it were as simple as opting out of capitalism, then we could all just do that, and stop moaning. That&#39;s one of our principal objections to capitalism. But in the real world we have to pay for houses, taxes, food, education, heating, etc, and if we don&#39;t work, we don&#39;t get any income, and thus go without our cheap housing and crap food - and suffer. You almost seem to be suggesting that anti-capitalism is some sort of lifestyle choice in which we try to live apart form capitalism in every way possible. But we really can&#39;t. We want to change society, not live seperate from it.

That said, I can&#39;t get a job for another couple of months, as I am going to be elsewhere for a month or so - im unhireable. Which means I have to be fucking thrifty . :(

Previously I&#39;ve worked in retail, and before that, helped out as a builders assistant. But that was when I was in part time education, which I am now not.

Ideally, I&#39;d like to get full time employment in a bar of some sort, but beggars can&#39;t be choosers.


For the youngsters on this forum it might be helpful if the older individuals list some jobs to aim for.

Well, I think it&#39;s pretty self explanatory. Get a job with good hours and decent pay, what job that is I have no idea. But I know some mates who get upward of £9 an hour workin in betting shops&#33;&#33;&#33;. So keep an eye on that one [/b]
Well if you dont want to sopport capitlism you could work for the government for a not for profit sect of it.

[MarcX]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 05, 2007 11:34 pm

What the hell? laugh.gif The people do it, it is an "association of free producers" where the people completely control the means of production.

Sounds like free-market capitalism without the usual government and market barriers to entry.

Someday, we will have true free-market capitalism.


Yeah...the capitalists are so productful, they do all the work&#33;

Capitalists (of all sizes) are part of the labor process as well.

They also provide the necessary capital that creates work.


Is anybody else catching this idiocy?

Are you calling a fellow comrade an idiot?

Awwww...I&#39;m telling on you.
Well im not as right or left as most of the people on this fourm

but i don&#39;t think that free market is what is needed anywhere is does not supply all need usually the ones that are not profitable..

i.e health care defense public works ect

[funkmasterswede]

Going to university and taking political science. I plan to be a professor. Yes, to put it as a member put it on this site, I am training to be a "pretentious, bourgeois asshole". I am glad that the revolutionary left hates on academia, considering most academics in arts and humanities are either progressives or socialists of some form.

And on the issue of jobs in a socialist society, I have no qualms with the market as I am a mutualist of sorts. Work does not need to be partitioned by a governing body of any sort. That negates free association, which most anarchists at least state they believe in. I certainly do feel that a degree of distributive justice is necessary in order to equalize capabilities and try to struggle with the issue of natural faculties. But the market itself is necessary. We can have labour managed firms functioning for a community without a "capitalist".

[A-S M.]

I&#39;m a metalworker, it just something I like doing and it supports me and my family in a pretty good way