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Led Zeppelin
29th May 2007, 13:38
"To distinguish between the bourgeois and the proletarian revolution is political ABC. But after the ABC come syllables, that is, combinations of letters. History accomplished just such a combination of the most important letters of the bourgeois alphabet with the first letters of the socialist alphabet. Radek, however, would like to drag us back from the already accomplished syllables to the alphabet. This is sad, but true.

It is nonsense to say that stages cannot in general be skipped. The living historical process always makes leaps over isolated ‘stages’ which derive from theoretical breakdown into its component parts of the process of development in its entirety, that is, taken in its fullest scope. The same is demanded of revolutionary policy at critical moments. It may be said that the first distinction between a revolutionist and a vulgar evolutionist lies in the capacity to recognize and exploit such moments.

Marx’s breakdown of the development of industry into handicraft, manufacture and factory is part of the ABC of political economy, or more precisely, of historico-economic theory. In Russia, however, the factory came by skipping over the epoch of manufacture and of urban handicrafts. This is already among the syllables of history. An analogous process took place in our country in class relationships and in politics. The modern history of Russia cannot be comprehended unless the Marxist schema of the three stages is known: handicraft, manufacture, factory. But if one knows only this, one still comprehends nothing. For the fact is that the history of Russia – Stalin should not take this personally – skipped a few stages. The theoretical distinction of the stages, however, is necessary for Russia, too, otherwise one can comprehend neither what this leap amounted to nor what its consequences were.

The matter can also be approached from another side (just as Lenin occasionally approached the dual power), and it can be said that Russia went through all three of Marx’s stages – the first two, however, in an extremely telescoped, embryonic form. These ‘rudiments’, the stages of handicraft and manufacture – merely outlined in dots, so to speak – suffice to confirm the genetic unity of the economic process. Nevertheless, the quantitative contraction of the two stages was so great that it engendered an entirely new quality in the whole social structure of the nation. The most striking expression of this new ‘quality’ in politics is the October Revolution."

On the Skipping of Historical Stages (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1931/tpr/pr06.htm)

Lark
29th May 2007, 14:57
So every country in the world will go through a process of development like that in nineteenth century England yeah?

Good luck getting the tractors to work in sub-saharan Africa.

How's it meant to work? The industrialisation of Russia and China has put massive wholes in the ozone layer and just about exhausted all the world non-renewable energy resources but you're expecting me to believe that every society will have to undergo the same stages of development before it can change its social relations? Dispensing with domestic, often organic, socialistic customs, norms and traditions in the process like communal farming on the Russia Mir?

This is thinking that's totally and utterly stranded in yester year and before any serious thinking was put into world systems or global systems theory, advances in communications and globalisation have made it look even more dated to invest a lot of thought into developmentalist thinking like that.

If ecologists in the eighties didnt hold out much hope for capitalist development being sustainable then I'm not sure that there's much hope for this uber-capitalist modernisation you're talking about but wait, if those discoveries were made in the eighties they couldnt have been known to Lenin, let alone Marx, so I guess in a way they must be bullshit right?

Please. Throw out the text books and take a real look at the world.

Led Zeppelin
29th May 2007, 15:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 01:57 pm
So every country in the world will go through a process of development like that in nineteenth century England yeah?

Good luck getting the tractors to work in sub-saharan Africa.
No one said that, did you even read the quote?


How's it meant to work? The industrialisation of Russia and China has put massive wholes in the ozone layer and just about exhausted all the world non-renewable energy resources but you're expecting me to believe that every society will have to undergo the same stages of development before it can change its social relations? Dispensing with domestic, often organic, socialistic customs, norms and traditions in the process like communal farming on the Russia Mir?


Actually the opposite was being argued by Trotsky, he was arguing that stages can be skipped....

Don't respond to posts if you haven't read them.


This is thinking that's totally and utterly stranded in yester year and before any serious thinking was put into world systems or global systems theory, advances in communications and globalisation have made it look even more dated to invest a lot of thought into developmentalist thinking like that.

If ecologists in the eighties didnt hold out much hope for capitalist development being sustainable then I'm not sure that there's much hope for this uber-capitalist modernisation you're talking about but wait, if those discoveries were made in the eighties they couldnt have been known to Lenin, let alone Marx, so I guess in a way they must be bullshit right?

Wow, this was written by Trotsky, this proves that you haven't even bothered to read it, let alone click the link I provided.

I know what kindof person you are. You are the kindof person who thinks he knows it all, but only reads a title of a thread or a book and bases his whole "understanding" of it on that. So when there's a book called "Left-wing communism; an infantile disorder", you believe that it was about the Social Revolutionaries, that it was right-wing, that it was reactionary etc.

When you see a thread made by me, a member with the name Leninism, and see it called "on the skipping of historical stages" with the description "to all the ultra-leftists out there", you assume that it must be arguing against skipping of historical stages, when in reality it was arguing for it.

People like you will never learn, so it is pointless to debate with you, it will only shatter your illusions about truths you hold that you thought were real, but are reality based on titles.

Have a nice life.

Die Neue Zeit
30th May 2007, 03:57
Sorry, but THAT is the difference between Trotsky and Lenin.

One wanted to skip pre-monopoly capitalism and monopoly capitalism and go straight to socialism, while the other had the more reasonable proposal of accelerating capitalist development and accumulation.

Rawthentic
30th May 2007, 04:42
One wanted to skip pre-monopoly capitalism and monopoly capitalism and go straight to socialism, while the other had the more reasonable proposal of accelerating capitalist development and accumulation.
Wasn't another problem that Trotsky negated the need for stages, and refused to believe that the workers and peasants could unite to form a revolutionary democratic dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry?

I think it ties into this.

Die Neue Zeit
30th May 2007, 05:48
^^^ This is where I must diverge from some left-communists here: Trotsky, like left-communists, believe that capitalism has sufficiently developed such that ANYWHERE would be ripe for a socialist revolution. His rationale for post-feudal Russia, in spite of underdevelopment, was that it was ready because of capitalist imperialism around it. <_<

Case in point: Saudi Arabia, which is very ripe for a revolutionary-democratic dictatorship of some sort (some other allied class can replace the non-existent peasantry over there), by is BY NO MEANS ripe for the DOTP.

[And I&#39;d like to ensure that you know the FUNDAMENTAL difference between the revolutionary-democratic dictatorship of the proles and peasants and the outright DOTP, wherein peasants as a class will have been reduced to peanut numbers beforehand by capitalist development.]

Led Zeppelin
30th May 2007, 12:14
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 04:48 am
^^^ This is where I must diverge from some left-communists here: Trotsky, like left-communists, believe that capitalism has sufficiently developed such that ANYWHERE would be ripe for a socialist revolution. His rationale for post-feudal Russia, in spite of underdevelopment, was that it was ready because of capitalist imperialism around it.
Um, no, that wasn&#39;t his rationale....at all.

If that was true he would&#39;ve said that "socialism in one country" was possible, which is actually completely contrary to the theory of Permanent revolution. His theory was that a socialist revolution in any nation must be supported because it can always be extended to other nations, and it is only through an international revolution that socialism can work anyway, so calling for "waiting for historical stages" is reactionary and....he was proven to be right.

Lark
30th May 2007, 19:57
Originally posted by Leninism+May 29, 2007 02:09 pm--> (Leninism @ May 29, 2007 02:09 pm)




[/b]


[email protected] 29, 2007 01:57 pm
So every country in the world will go through a process of development like that in nineteenth century England yeah?

Good luck getting the tractors to work in sub-saharan Africa.
No one said that, did you even read the quote?


What you mean they&#39;ll just skip the industrial stage in sub-saharan Africa? But isnt that unmarxist?



How&#39;s it meant to work? The industrialisation of Russia and China has put massive wholes in the ozone layer and just about exhausted all the world non-renewable energy resources but you&#39;re expecting me to believe that every society will have to undergo the same stages of development before it can change its social relations? Dispensing with domestic, often organic, socialistic customs, norms and traditions in the process like communal farming on the Russia Mir?


Actually the opposite was being argued by Trotsky, he was arguing that stages can be skipped....

Don&#39;t respond to posts if you haven&#39;t read them.

I wasnt arguing that they could be skipped, I was arguing that the idea itself is impossible. The world would not support a uniform international industrialisation even if it were possible in completely different climates, cultures etc.


Wow, this was written by Trotsky, this proves that you haven&#39;t even bothered to read it, let alone click the link I provided.


No it wasnt, that&#39;s like reading ancient zen text books and saying, shit, this stuff is bang up to date psycho-analysis, its not, it couldnt possibly be, they were writing in entirely different contexts.

I followed your link and it seemed like the typical quasi-scriptural homage to trotsky, that&#39;s why I didnt read it. No value in it at all.


I know what kindof person you are. You are the kindof person who thinks he knows it all, but only reads a title of a thread or a book and bases his whole "understanding" of it on that. So when there&#39;s a book called "Left-wing communism; an infantile disorder", you believe that it was about the Social Revolutionaries, that it was right-wing, that it was reactionary etc.


It was right wing and reactionary, it was written by someone who&#39;s interest was power and power alone, he wanted to seize it and consolidate it, kill all opposition, from there its a very small step to making killing opposition the only priority there is, there&#39;s a reply to Lenin written by an anarchist I think called "Every Cook Can Govern"


When you see a thread made by me, a member with the name Leninism, and see it called "on the skipping of historical stages" with the description "to all the ultra-leftists out there", you assume that it must be arguing against skipping of historical stages, when in reality it was arguing for it.


I dont accept that stages arguments are legit at all, whether you&#39;re saying that they exist or can be skipped, it assumes a linear or progressivist view of history which was out of date before the second world war but then I think that&#39;s the problem you are going to encounter when you have parties and a lot of time and effort dedicated to keeping dated ideas like leninism and trotskyism in circulation long by their use by date.


People like you will never learn, so it is pointless to debate with you, it will only shatter your illusions about truths you hold that you thought were real, but are reality based on titles.


That&#39;s a bit melodramatic.


Have a nice life.

Thanks.

Understand I&#39;m not trying to insult you or any of your buddies who share your opinions, I&#39;m interested in political debate and dialogue on pretty much any topic, cheers.

Led Zeppelin
30th May 2007, 21:08
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 06:57 pm
What you mean they&#39;ll just skip the industrial stage in sub-saharan Africa? But isnt that unmarxist?
No.


I wasnt arguing that they could be skipped, I was arguing that the idea itself is impossible. The world would not support a uniform international industrialisation even if it were possible in completely different climates, cultures etc.

Who said anything about industrialization? Equalization and creation of infrastructure could be done internationally with an industrial base in several nations/continents, it doesn&#39;t matter because the world is one global soviet community.


No it wasnt, that&#39;s like reading ancient zen text books and saying, shit, this stuff is bang up to date psycho-analysis, its not, it couldnt possibly be, they were writing in entirely different contexts.

I followed your link and it seemed like the typical quasi-scriptural homage to trotsky, that&#39;s why I didnt read it. No value in it at all.


Then don&#39;t make stupid comments that you wouldn&#39;t have made if you had chosen to read the link.


Understand I&#39;m not trying to insult you or any of your buddies who share your opinions, I&#39;m interested in political debate and dialogue on pretty much any topic

Ha, that is funny, you keep making stupid snide remarks anywhere you post, and you expect us to take you seriously?

Comments like:


I think that&#39;s the problem you are going to encounter when you have parties and a lot of time and effort dedicated to keeping dated ideas like leninism and trotskyism in circulation long by their use by date.


Are not going to encourage debate with me, on the contrary, they&#39;ll cause me to consider you to be a troll.

Besides, you said you were closer to Thatcher and Reagan than Lenin, so what the hell did you expect?

Enragé
30th May 2007, 21:48
lark, cant you just read some trotsky, lenin, and some anarchist works for instance and then criticise them on how they are supposed to be outdated instead of just screaming they are?

i mean, you might discover some truth in them ;)

yes we must acknowledge the context in which they were written, but we must also be open to the possibility that they today might still be relevant today (which in many cases i think they are)
For example, it is nonsense to analyse and keep alive the idea that revolution in russia needs a german revolution to sustain itself properly just because lenin said so.. almost a hundred years ago. But we can deduce from that that revolutions in undeveloped areas will most likely need support of developed areas to be succesful, with which i agree.

Severian
31st May 2007, 01:11
Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 08:57 pm
Sorry, but THAT is the difference between Trotsky and Lenin.

One wanted to skip pre-monopoly capitalism and monopoly capitalism and go straight to socialism, while the other had the more reasonable proposal of accelerating capitalist development and accumulation.
A good example of what Luis Henrique calls "Doing brain surgery with a chainsaw". As he often says, very common on this board.

This is a complex and nuanced political question and some people can&#39;t wait to oversimplify the heck out of it and set up straw men for their opponents. Not just you, of course, Hammer.

But anyway - about stages of social development, and the relationship between bourgeois-democratic and socialist tasks in a revolution.

Post about the different strategic views on this subject. (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=40806&st=0&#entry1291942537)
It took a while to make that post, so I&#39;m not gonna repeat all of it.

links to some of the historic documents in this debate (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=61166) For anyone who wants to go back and read up on it, starting with the primary sources....[/url]

Die Neue Zeit
31st May 2007, 04:56
^^^ I was being polemical, just like Lenin was in his exaggerations in What Is To Be Done?. :P


Originally posted by Leninism+May 30, 2007 11:14 am--> (Leninism &#064; May 30, 2007 11:14 am)
[email protected] 30, 2007 04:48 am
^^^ This is where I must diverge from some left-communists here: Trotsky, like left-communists, believe that capitalism has sufficiently developed such that ANYWHERE would be ripe for a socialist revolution. His rationale for post-feudal Russia, in spite of underdevelopment, was that it was ready because of capitalist imperialism around it.
Um, no, that wasn&#39;t his rationale....at all.

If that was true he would&#39;ve said that "socialism in one country" was possible, which is actually completely contrary to the theory of Permanent revolution. His theory was that a socialist revolution in any nation must be supported because it can always be extended to other nations, and it is only through an international revolution that socialism can work anyway, so calling for "waiting for historical stages" is reactionary and....he was proven to be right. [/b]
^^^ First off, a socialist revolution does NOT equal immediate socialism. Trotsky&#39;s basic idea is that capitalism as a historical stage can be skipped right to socialist revolution and the DOTP (hence "socialist tasks" versus Lenin&#39;s "revolutionary-democratic tasks") even in a backward country like Russia, even if socialism itself would remain far off... conditional of course on successful socialist revolutions in the developed countries.

[The material conditions for a proper DOTP were JUST NOT THERE&#33;]

Second, permanent revolution isn&#39;t about spreading socialist revolution worldwide. Its main premise in the Russian situation is that the dictatorship of the proletariat (DOTP already&#33;) LEANING on the peasantry could carry out revolutionary-democratic tasks as well as socialist tasks.

He was proven wrong.

As for "waiting for historical stages," you should check out my stamocap thread to read about my elaboration on Lenin&#39;s theory per se. Again, capitalism CANNOT be skipped, but its development CAN be vastly ACCELERATED.