What the Hell is happening in the UK, Ireland, and

[Cheung Mo]

I don't understand why the left was so decimated in recent French, Irish, Welsh, and Scottish elections...I thought that he mood in those countries (especially in France and in Scotland) has become much more hostile towards neo-liberalism and corporatist globalisation than it was 5 or even 3 years ago...

France: One month people are rioting in the street and giving pretty much everyone in the ruling party approval ratings of under 30%. Then, the party holds on to the Presidency and is looking to win an even bigger majority in the legiature. Incidentally, why are there two separate Trotskyist parties and why the Hell has the French "Communist" Party not been completely discredited by its betrayals of 1968 and of the 1980s and 1990s?

Scottish: Left-wing parties like the Scottish Socialist Party and the Greens are obliterated. Social democratic nationalists improve their fortunes somewhat, Labour loses the driver's seat, and little happens to either the Tories or the LibDems. Is there an explanation for what happened here that does not involve Tommy Sheridan being a selfish fuck? Either way, the people of Scotland have been deradicalised to the point of giving more votes to the BNP than to socialism.

Wales: LieBlair remains in a highly comfortable position. I expected much better results from both Plaid Cymru (social democratic nationalist...They call themselves "socialists" for some reason...Compared to who? Tony Blair?) and Forward Wales (democratic socialist nationalist, I think)

Ireland: Fianna Fail does brilliantly while ultra-liberal capitalist Progressive Democrats (born of people who liked FF's capitalist nuttery but disliked its religious nuttery) are obliterated. Fine Gael surge leads to underwhelming performance from Greens, Sein Fein, and Labour...Socialists defy all projections that they would pick up a seat and lose the only one they have.

[Lark]

Socialist parties have always been really marginal in these countries, the socialist party in France is more like The Democrats or Labour in the UK, in Scotland they only had one or two seats.

The reason's are very simple, they havent changed since Orwell wrote about socialists in Down and Out in Paris and London or The Lion and The Unicorn, bunch of self important political stunt artists who dont have real popular appeal.

The idea that it doesnt matter if your popular so long as you're right has left socialists in the wilderness for too ages.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

It's no big surprise, it's just capitalism.

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 10:09 am
Socialist parties have always been really marginal in these countries, the socialist party in France is more like The Democrats or Labour in the UK, in Scotland they only had one or two seats.

The reason's are very simple, they havent changed since Orwell wrote about socialists in Down and Out in Paris and London or The Lion and The Unicorn, bunch of self important political stunt artists who dont have real popular appeal.

The idea that it doesnt matter if your popular so long as you're right has left socialists in the wilderness for too ages.
What are you saying???

Nowadays, the socialists of Europe is generally more right-wing than for 20 years ago.

[BOZG]

The working class have been bought off and bourgeoisified. Simple as that. We must turn to guerrillia struggle and the Third World now.





Hang on, back to reality. In terms of Ireland, there are a couple of factors for the shock results of the elections.

First of all, Ireland is still in the period of an economic boom with a very low level of struggle. The increases in living standards over the past 15 years have meant that most people have superficially benefited from the Celtic Tiger and as a result, there has been no real turn towards industrially stuggle or left-wing parties. Because of this, parliamentary and council work has taken on a significance that's more important that it warrants because a lot of the struggle has been based around issues like natural resources, service charges, problems with housing estate planning etc., very parochial type of work which revolves around the councils. It's painstaking and as the elections have shown, can be very unrewarding work.

The reality though is that the Irish elections really came down to being a referendum between Bertie Ahern (Taoiseach - PM) and Enda Kenny (opposition leader), squeezing all the smaller parties. The constant talk of the problems of the world economy and the dependance of the Irish economy on the US economy has meant that there is a limited level of fear for the future in Ireland and the election was really a question of "Who's better to run the country if there is an economic downturn?" coupled with the fact that Enda Kenny has the personality of wet paint meant that while it would be nice to vote for smaller parties, they won't really play a role and if I don't vote for Bertie (or Enda), it will let Enda (or Bertie) in.

[BOZG]

Ireland - Smaller parties, including Socialist Party, squeezed in General Election (http://socialistworld.net/eng/2007/05/29ireland.html)

[BobKKKindle$]

In the UK, at least, there are signs that the struggle is reaching higher levels of intensity.

I think its unfair to assert that the recent council results in the UK are indicative of low levels of struggle, as RESPECT was able to win an additional 3 council seats brining the party's total to 20 across the entire country, and the BNP encountered important setbacks in many of their main target areas - in Burnley, for example, the party lost 3 seats leaving them with only 4. Whatever your personal feelings about RESPECT - I know for many members the party should not be considered Socialist - I feel that these results do reflect a change in political opinion and a recognition that New labour can no longer provide effective solutions to the problems that working class communities face.

In addition, The recent annoucement that pay increases in the public sector will be limited to 1.9 - 2.5% (whilst the rate of inflation is just above 4%) affecting a total of 4 million workers, has resulted in a range of industrial disputes across the UK and confrontational pay demands in many important economic sectors including the Postal service. The SWP and Respect have had an important role in many of these struggles. This has important implications for the future and has the potential to challenge Gordon Brown and even force a change of government or leader.

[Lark]

Originally posted by Serpent+May 29, 2007 11:31 am--> (Serpent @ May 29, 2007 11:31 am)
[email protected] 29, 2007 10:09 am
Socialist parties have always been really marginal in these countries, the socialist party in France is more like The Democrats or Labour in the UK, in Scotland they only had one or two seats.

The reason's are very simple, they havent changed since Orwell wrote about socialists in Down and Out in Paris and London or The Lion and The Unicorn, bunch of self important political stunt artists who dont have real popular appeal.

The idea that it doesnt matter if your popular so long as you're right has left socialists in the wilderness for too ages.
What are you saying???

Nowadays, the socialists of Europe is generally more right-wing than for 20 years ago. [/b]
I dont think so, the social democrats have accepted that the centre ground has moved to the right, that's a little different from the socialists but you'd need to tell me what you mean by right anyway.

For instance I wouldnt vote for more generous social security, less punative sentencing and policies like that, I'm not right wing but I just wouldnt do it.

[Lark]

I dont think anything beating the Bertie factor in the ROI, he's a much loved celebrity pretty much. Plus I think that Ireland is much like America, lots of consensus, shared purpose and patriotism, not a lot of difference between the parties on the big issues.

The most remarkable thing I found when I lived there was the urban versus rural politics plus I dont care what anyone says the Church still has a lot of clout.

Within the UK I think that the New Labour party is a very long term strategy which isnt appreciated by a lot of left wingers, Labour had a long, long time in opposition to plot the future of the country, I've read out of print books which were the stock and trade of labour activists that whole time describing a strategy to build popular confidence and push forward a cultural change in the country spanning possibly three generations, much longer than the life of any parliamentry sittings, Gordon Brown even hints about this strategy in the introduction to Crosland's Future of Socialism which was reprinted recently, Miliband who's meant to be a right winger has recreated The Left Book Club.

In contrast groups like Respect and SWP are the old militant tendency reborn, stranded in the past and amounting to the court jester at the feast.

So far as popular aggitation goes the best in the whole of the UK and I dont hesitate to say the world is built around the left tabloid SchNews (who they? Shame on you!)

[BobKKKindle$]

Within the UK I think that the New Labour party is a very long term strategy which isnt appreciated by a lot of left wingers, Labour had a long, long time in opposition to plot the future of the country...In contrast groups like Respect and SWP are the old militant tendency reborn, stranded in the past and amounting to the court jester at the feast

So are you suggesting that you feel that New Labour better represents the aspirations of Socialism than the Socialist Workers' Party? Despite popular opposition to the SWP, I think there are very few members that would agree with this. Your comments are in fact beginning to suggest you have reformist tendencies. It is somewhat naive to suggest that New Labour is following a 'long-term' strategy for Socialism as the party has supported the interestes of the ruling class for the duration of the time that they have held political office, despite the hopes of the British people in 1997.

I don't want to turn this into a party debate (although I will defend the SWP), but the SWP has not, contrary to what you suggest, been stuck in the past or disconnected from the proletariat - The SWP is an integral part of many mass movements and organisations which have involved not only students but a broad array of social and economic groups, including the working class. An example of this is the 'Stop the War Coalition', the largest demonstration of which encompassed 750,000 - 2 million activists and took place on the 15th of February, which was founded by the SWP and continues to struggle against the development of a political and potentially military conflict with Iran. Has New Labour engaged with the working class and fought for Socialism in this manner? No - New labour started the war in Iraq - the reason STWC was created in the first place.

[Lark]

There are good socialist blogs, although I dont have the links, which would suggest that New Labour's role in the recent wars of America has hindered the plans of American apparatniks and neo-cons for fully fledged empire and even more "friendly fascism" than present.

Norman Mailer's book Why Are We At War? Talks about how Clinton was hated so much because previously he'd hindered the plans no end himself, although you might not like Mailer because he goes on about something called "left conservative" which makes no sense to me but American has a hundred different flavours of conservative at the moment, even moderate liberalism being taboo and unpopular.

I dont know if you mean to employ a sort of political correctness or newspeak by trying to slap the label of reformer onto me, I deal in real politik and ideal politik rather than revolution and reform.

So far as the SWP goes they are a bunch of losers, nothing more than a student union party were university graduates can test their radical training wheels before dispensing with it all when they go on into the work place. Investing all their time and effort trying to run a current through leninism like some sort of Dr Frankenstein. I know about the Stop The War Coalition and Globalise Resistance before that and here a couple of the Stop Water Charges groups, its hackneyed old opportunistic infiltrating as exposed by the excellent SchNews flyer on the topic Monopolise Resistance.

I've no time for them at all and they are trying to substitute proper delegate democracy within my union with some bullshit version of democratic centralism, I dont give a damn what sort of way they dress it up or whatever fine sounding ideological crap they can spout that's not good, not good at all. How much of a slow learner can you be?

[BobKKKindle$]

New Labour's role in the recent wars of America has hindered the plans of American apparatniks and neo-cons for fully fledged empire and even more "friendly fascism" than present.

What are you suggesting - that New Labour became involved in the Iraq War in order to restrain America in some respect? To be honest I find this to be quite a naive and absurd position. If New Labour really did want to protect the lives of the Iraqi people (and to prevent a waste of public funds and the deaths of many British citizens) it would have been more appropriate and effective to voice political opposition to the War which would have undermined American credibility.

Far from trying to prevent further imperialism, recent events suggest that the British Government is actively trying to encourage further military conflict in the middle east which is already a highly unstable geopolitical region - take, for example, the recent entry of a British Naval vessel into Iranian waters - a political conflict that was only effectively managed through calm and cautious action and negotiation by the Iranian government. Surely this makes your hypothesis very questionable?


I know about the Stop The War Coalition and Globalise Resistance before that and here a couple of the Stop Water Charges groups, its hackneyed old opportunistic infiltrating as exposed by the excellent SchNews flyer on the topic Monopolise Resistance.

Could you offer further details on why you consider the SWP to be guilty of 'hackneyed old opportunistic infiltrating'? I would not consider any of these movements to be 'oppurtunistic' - they are a reaction to and reflection of many of the problems facing the British working class and progressive community. In the past similar movements - also founded by the SWP - have been of great success and importance - the SWP organised the Anti-Nazi-Leauge as a United front organisation 1976 to present resistance to the Far-right, for example through the imaginative and exicitng 'Rock against Racism' events.


I've no time for them at all and they are trying to substitute proper delegate democracy within my union with some bullshit version of democratic centralism

Source? Far from being undemocratic, the SWP has taken important steps towards establishing truly democratic and alternative institutions in order to the ability to voice their own opinions - most notably the recent People's Assembly, which brought together over 1,000 delegates from trade unions, schools and colleges, stop the war groups, Muslim organisations and other campaign groups to hold (as Tony Benn put it) “the debate that parliament won’t have”. I think this shows an appreciation for the importance of Democracy - and no other Socialist party has taken this kind of step.

[Andy Bowden]

Essentially what happened in Scotland was a two horse race between the SNP and Labour that squeezed all the small parties. Its almost certain that even without the split or the court case the SSP would have lost seats.

The SSP/Solidarity parliament group - which had 6 seats, in total, not two - were hit harder than the Greens most likely because of the split and the public infighting.

The elections in Scotland dont represent a shift to the right - the SNP stole a lot of the most popular SSP policies (abolition of council tax for example), and given the narrow margin of their victory this is probably what swung it for them.

So what was rejected was not Socialist ideas but a divided and infighting Left.

[Cheung Mo]

I suppose we're all limited by our own perceptions...Being Canadian, whenever I think of the SNP and the sort of left-liberal civic nationalism it appears to advocate, I think of Gilles Duceppe going from Maoism and the organisation of immigrant workers in Montreal's tourism and hospitality industries to making backroom deals with the Tories and advocating Canada's adoption of the U.S. dollar.

And compared to the likes of Bouchard and Boisclair, Duceppe's policies are almost friendly to Quebec workers.

[Lark]

which would have undermined American credibility.


Would it? The neo-cons wanted their core support and America in general to believe that it was a case of "us versus the world", like I say check out the book.

[Coggeh]

Essentially what happened in Ireland with us was alot of our votes would have been on the basis of the man and not the party so to speak and the voters would have used their normal "protest vote" to oust fianna fail or stop fine gael which ever they thought was worse .

Same thing happened with Sinn fein and the greens .

PD's on the other hand got justifiably slaughtered because of the poor health service .

But Dublin West (SP's only seat) was only a 3-seater which should have been a 4 . Thats not to say either that joe did bad . John Gormley (green party td) got less votes than joe and still got elected in a different constituency i expect joe to be back in the next electing when dub west is a 4 seater and clare daly alongside him .

Another was the media portrait of this election was more like a American one where it was a presidential type campaign "who's it going to be Enda Or Bertie" .... Tweedle Dum or Tweedle Dee in other words... it lead people to believe they had no real alternative and voted for 1 or the two .