Culture - anyone?

[Eastside Revolt]

I know that we are mostly from different cultural backarounds. So I was wondering, how do you think culture should affect a socialist state (regionally?). How do you think culture relates to the revolution? Do you think couter cultures like hip-hop and punk are important?

[Panamarisen]

Cultural background is an unavoidable starting point. Without it, all who want to change things for better will fail, because they didn´t kept the least time to try to understand and know those that are/were oppressed.

Instead of proposing ideas, we all must ask for them, and furtherly work for them, as so wisely Subcomandante Marcos suggests...


¡HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Panamarisen]

...Besides, counter-cultures are always really necessary: they mean a different look at reality, a different look at society´s performance...


¡HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Larissa]

Well, in fcat in the USSR there was a real cultural problem among all the countries that were part of it.
At least, there were different cultures, and this sometimes also happens within a same country like mine.

[Weatherman]

We are you from Larrisa? (just wondering what those differant cultures might be)

[Eastside Revolt]

I think the USSR was a perfect mistake to learn from. So is Cuba, kind of.

[VI Koba]

The reason why you claim the USSR was a failure in culture was due to the fact that the USSR had a mixed culture... when we look at other areas of socialism in China and Cuba.. Culture is not an issue because the population is clearly in the majority of a ONE NATIONAL culture and therefore the issue is never brought up because it is not conflicting on anyone of a sizeable percentage.

The question concerning the State and culture is clear.. it is the duty of the centralized state to not impose cultural standards nor accomodate them. Cultural differences are a matter of local importance to be decided by the local deputies. Lenin pointed out switzerland as a prime example of how culture was really a question of pointless origin... in Switzerland you have three official languages but this is not a major question to which is the official language of the state parliament... primarily because it is not enforced upon the people and therefore the people adapt to convinience instead of bourgeoisie cultural roots.

Let us go back to the soviet union and WHY it was a union of socialist republics. Primarily let us turn our eyes towards Georgia. Georgia is a strong cultured region which differs significantly to Russia and therefore Georgia remained a 'republic' in post revolution times.. as did the Ukraine and Belarus as well... and in fact Belarus enjoyed more independence in the context of the USSR than in any other time (perhaps even today)

The question concerning self determination of nations (republics) is fundamental to the social stability of the centralized state and as long as you are not having an imposed culture the problems of natioanlist culture disappear... The question of self determination was implemented and upheld in the Soviet Union with great success until the post Stalin era when 'capitalisms' started leaking their ways in.. and we can clearly see how imperialistically the USSR abandoned these principles in prague spring and afghanistan.

[Lardlad95]

Culture is key to any society because it is tied to closely with history

you lose one you lose the other. and a society without a history can't progress very far.

Cultural diffusion isn't nor has it ever been a problem, bigotry, people who see diversity as a problem, are in effect the problem

I for one would not give up my cultural heritage for some state

socialism without diversity hasn't done it's job

[Larissa]

Quote: from Weatherman on 11:50 pm on Jan. 26, 2003
We are you from Larrisa? (just wondering what those differant cultures might be)
I'm from argentina.
I was referring to some of the countries of the former USSR like Armenia, Uzbekistan, Georgia, Turkmenistan, Azerbaiyan, Moldavia, etc.

[VI Koba]

Culture is key to any society because it is tied to closely with history you lose one you lose the other. and a society without a history can't progress very far.

Whos culture? The capitalist culture that has been imposed on peoples for milleniums that you have grown to accept as 'your own'.. the culture which has brutally oppressed people such as the power of the church, the british monarch, and the brutally oppressive cultures that have exploited women; are these the cultures in which you are talking about? There are countries without culture... take Belgium for instance, The United States barely has a culture of its own... Your thoughts on the importance of culture are rediculous and philistine.


Cultural diffusion isn't nor has it ever been a problem, bigotry, people who see diversity as a problem, are in effect the problem
I for one would not give up my cultural heritage for some state

That is because you are a philistine who has failed to see how culture has mass murdered on a consistant level and will continue to do so; take a look at the American conservatives view on all middle easterners to learn more..


socialism without diversity hasn't done it's job

And who told you this? The class traitor 'Rosa Luxembourg' ???? I do believe Socialism is about the elimination of classes.. not the creation of more classes.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from VI Koba on 8:32 pm on Jan. 27, 2003

Culture is key to any society because it is tied to closely with history you lose one you lose the other. and a society without a history can't progress very far.

Whos culture? The capitalist culture that has been imposed on peoples for milleniums that you have grown to accept as 'your own'.. the culture which has brutally oppressed people such as the power of the church, the british monarch, and the brutally oppressive cultures that have exploited women; are these the cultures in which you are talking about? There are countries without culture... take Belgium for instance, The United States barely has a culture of its own... Your thoughts on the importance of culture are rediculous and philistine.


Cultural diffusion isn't nor has it ever been a problem, bigotry, people who see diversity as a problem, are in effect the problem
I for one would not give up my cultural heritage for some state

That is because you are a philistine who has failed to see how culture has mass murdered on a consistant level and will continue to do so; take a look at the American conservatives view on all middle easterners to learn more..


socialism without diversity hasn't done it's job

And who told you this? The class traitor 'Rosa Luxembourg' ???? I do believe Socialism is about the elimination of classes.. not the creation of more classes.



Or perhapes I should just edit your post for calling me a philistine. But no..that would be wrong

you are a new person here and you obviously don't know me.

IN teh future I would appreciate it if you would restrain yourself before you call people names and compare a socialist who will more than likely remain true to the cause longer than your over zealous self to capitalist

I have not nor will i ever support the capitalist culture..do you know why?

Because the American culture is not a culture...it's a perversion of my peoples (black/hispanic) as well as european, asian culture and so on.

Black Culture has brought great music jazz, blues, rock and roll, true hip hop as well as great authors and thinkers

Hispanic cultures has brought the world great music, authors, and revolutionaries

European cultures have brought great art and music, as well as great authors

Asian cultures have brought about great art, inventions, writings, and philosophy.

Just because you fail to validate what culture has done for society doesn't mean that it isn't true.

By doing away with culture you are essentially creating what you are opposed to.

Creating a society which opresses.

Without cultural diffusion there would have never been a rennisance.

Guess what the rennisance helped create?

The protestant reformation, allowing religious freedom in Europe.

How? Humanists, great thinkers like Euramaus, Thomas More(whom without no socialism), Machavellie

these people challeneged government and church..which led to people questioning church values.

Without these men you and many other could not denounce religion publicly

if you did you would be tried and executed if not shot on sight.

Guess how the renisance came to be? Cultural diffusion

without cultures and diversity that was brought from teh Byzintine empire the renisance would be non existent

without a rennisance no challenging of the roman catholic church without religious reformation we would be even more opressed than ever.

Religion is not culture sir, it is part of culture.

I doubt that you have any true idea what culture is.

You assume that the british monarchy is a culture?

no my friend it is a government, government is a part of culture.

Question: What is a culture

your defenition is obviously wrong because a religion is not a culture

it can be part of a culture

however ethnicity, race, enviroment, philosophy, daily life, athletics, recreation, life in relation to geographical location, etc.

That and other things are culture.

Did you write this while you were watching a documentary on the holocaust and assume that because some nazis had the sick idea of killing off jews that every culture on earth was as currupt.

"And who told you this? The class traitor 'Rosa Luxembourg' ???? I do believe Socialism is about the elimination of classes.. not the creation of more classes. "


I have a question..do you pass judgement on a person for saying something in one post of which you have little or no understanding?

Have you ever been in a post where you came across my beliefs on classes?

Do you even know my socialist beliefs, what type of socialist I am?

Then how the hell are you going to pass judgement on me?

I too am against classes, however I am pro diversity.

If you want I can buy you a dictionary so you can look up classes and diversity and find out that they aren't synonyms.


Dversity enriches people, yo u get a better understanding of those not like you.

Diversity doesn't nor has it ever created a class system

Capitalism has.

Oh and by the way.


Please don't ever, and I mean ever insult me, then try an engage in a debate with me because I assure you that you will loose and remain ina fetal position for the next few hours.

Not to mention..if your arguements are as weak as the ones i saw in your post trying to thrash me...I can gauruantee you one thing

I WILL VERBALLy CASTRATE YOU..so please next time you want to try and argue with me do your homework

especially since you can't even get your defenitions straight

[Eastside Revolt]

I'm confused

[VI Koba]

Or perhapes I should just edit your post for calling me a philistine. But no..that would be wrong
you are a new person here and you obviously don't know me.

Go ahead and edit my posts so the people can see your 'defence' of your ideals is through ignoring critisisms.. It is our duty to critisise and Improve! As far as not knowing you... I know you support culture which is responsible for just about every conflict on the globe.


Because the American culture is not a culture...it's a perversion of my peoples (black/hispanic) as well as european, asian culture and so on. [quote]

Oh ok so I understand it... American Culture should be oppressed because YOU feel its a perversion of YOUR peoples while its ok for you to have a culture. You cant legislate equality, by doing so you only legislate another type of aristocracy which in your case would be your peoples over american peoples.

In reguards to the few cultures in which you gave examples of their writtings and literatures and philosophies... Yes books would never be written and people would never think if there wasnt culture... I suppose your going to tell me the USSR would be totally defenceless without ANY standing army if it wernt for Trotsky.

[quote]By doing away with culture you are essentially creating what you are opposed to.

Creating a society which opresses.

You think socialism isnt oppressive to anyone? It is democracy for the workers and a dictatorship to the bourgeoisie. I recognize this and support it so in short I aim to create a society that oppresses capitalism. Ninety percent of the time the question of the state is what divides the true Marxists from the would be Marxists; most notably anarchists and would be class traitors who only want to modify capitalism to suit their own interests.


Without cultural diffusion there would have never been a rennisance.

Again more rediculous defeatist ideals that say 'nothing would be accomplished without conservatisms'. The 'protestant reformation' is NOT religious freedom.. Religion doesnt give a shwank about freedom or the peoples.. they want YOUR MONEY they want you to be happy about being oppressed! Why do you support the agent of the communists movements stagnation! Do you know how often 'your church' launches massive propaganda crusades against communism and in particular as they describe 'godless communism'. Communism delivers equality which the church promises.. it is a direct threat to the business of the church and the church is reactionary to communism and you support it.

In regards to 'denouncing religion publically'... WHy is it you uphold the current political order of things? Are we not a 'revolutionary community' who aims to smash the state machinery of the capitalist bourgeoisie? Your point about openly opposing religion is rediculous... wasnt Lenin oppressed in opposing tzarist Russia? I guess according to your logic Lenin could never publically oppose it. People in Tzarist Russia and even Colonial United States were shot and executed for their 'protests'... Those who previously critisized government are completely irrelevant to the point.. they had no bearing on the 'freedoms of peoples'; of course with the exception of the united states who initiated the next step in liberation by enforcing the first great bourgeoisie nation whose circumstances permitted the workers the ability to organize.

Yes Religion is Culture... you say a part of the culture but its the same damn thing because 'culture' is not one article but a collaboration of many. No use in negotiating terminology.. its all the same.


I have a question..do you pass judgement on a person for saying something in one post of which you have little or no understanding?

I have understanding of the ideas in which you put in this post and that is what I am critisising you on... in this tread I really dont care what else you stand for.. I will stumble across them at a later date.

Yes you are pro diversity... and yes... diversity is a class.. and you can keep your dictionary I have no use for your capitalist deffinitions (look up democracy in 'your dictionary')


Please don't ever, and I mean ever insult me, then try an engage in a debate with me because I assure you that you will loose and remain ina fetal position for the next few hours.

Yes your pro individualism has indeed given you 'super powers' and I should fear you. Grow up.


I WILL VERBALLy CASTRATE YOU..so please next time you want to try and argue with me do your homework

Yes this is the sophistication I expected from you.... your afraid you may be proven wrong and have violated the essencial role of critism which is neccessary so you have to create a climate of fear which I will be 'afraid' to debate the.. whatever your name is.... All in all your just massaging your ego for whatever clique you have formed here.

[mentalbunny]

Lardlad, your points were very valid.

If we were to abolish national boundaries I do not think that culture should be abolished, but in the education of children there should be more time dedicated to teaching about the various cultures at various times, especially asian and african culture, of which most of the western world knows so little.

Culture consists of many things: philosophy, religion, art, music, literature. We cannot lose these or we will be living in 1984. The arts are a central part of our humanity, they are what seperates us from animal in general.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from VI Koba on 10:22 am on Jan. 28, 2003


Or perhapes I should just edit your post for calling me a philistine. But no..that would be wrong
you are a new person here and you obviously don't know me.

Go ahead and edit my posts so the people can see your 'defence' of your ideals is through ignoring critisisms.. It is our duty to critisise and Improve! As far as not knowing you... I know you support culture which is responsible for just about every conflict on the globe.


Because the American culture is not a culture...it's a perversion of my peoples (black/hispanic) as well as european, asian culture and so on. [quote]

Oh ok so I understand it... American Culture should be oppressed because YOU feel its a perversion of YOUR peoples while its ok for you to have a culture. You cant legislate equality, by doing so you only legislate another type of aristocracy which in your case would be your peoples over american peoples.

In reguards to the few cultures in which you gave examples of their writtings and literatures and philosophies... Yes books would never be written and people would never think if there wasnt culture... I suppose your going to tell me the USSR would be totally defenceless without ANY standing army if it wernt for Trotsky.

[quote]By doing away with culture you are essentially creating what you are opposed to.

Creating a society which opresses.

You think socialism isnt oppressive to anyone? It is democracy for the workers and a dictatorship to the bourgeoisie. I recognize this and support it so in short I aim to create a society that oppresses capitalism. Ninety percent of the time the question of the state is what divides the true Marxists from the would be Marxists; most notably anarchists and would be class traitors who only want to modify capitalism to suit their own interests.


Without cultural diffusion there would have never been a rennisance.

Again more rediculous defeatist ideals that say 'nothing would be accomplished without conservatisms'. The 'protestant reformation' is NOT religious freedom.. Religion doesnt give a shwank about freedom or the peoples.. they want YOUR MONEY they want you to be happy about being oppressed! Why do you support the agent of the communists movements stagnation! Do you know how often 'your church' launches massive propaganda crusades against communism and in particular as they describe 'godless communism'. Communism delivers equality which the church promises.. it is a direct threat to the business of the church and the church is reactionary to communism and you support it.

In regards to 'denouncing religion publically'... WHy is it you uphold the current political order of things? Are we not a 'revolutionary community' who aims to smash the state machinery of the capitalist bourgeoisie? Your point about openly opposing religion is rediculous... wasnt Lenin oppressed in opposing tzarist Russia? I guess according to your logic Lenin could never publically oppose it. People in Tzarist Russia and even Colonial United States were shot and executed for their 'protests'... Those who previously critisized government are completely irrelevant to the point.. they had no bearing on the 'freedoms of peoples'; of course with the exception of the united states who initiated the next step in liberation by enforcing the first great bourgeoisie nation whose circumstances permitted the workers the ability to organize.

Yes Religion is Culture... you say a part of the culture but its the same damn thing because 'culture' is not one article but a collaboration of many. No use in negotiating terminology.. its all the same.


I have a question..do you pass judgement on a person for saying something in one post of which you have little or no understanding?

I have understanding of the ideas in which you put in this post and that is what I am critisising you on... in this tread I really dont care what else you stand for.. I will stumble across them at a later date.

Yes you are pro diversity... and yes... diversity is a class.. and you can keep your dictionary I have no use for your capitalist deffinitions (look up democracy in 'your dictionary')


Please don't ever, and I mean ever insult me, then try an engage in a debate with me because I assure you that you will loose and remain ina fetal position for the next few hours.

Yes your pro individualism has indeed given you 'super powers' and I should fear you. Grow up.


I WILL VERBALLy CASTRATE YOU..so please next time you want to try and argue with me do your homework

Yes this is the sophistication I expected from you.... your afraid you may be proven wrong and have violated the essencial role of critism which is neccessary so you have to create a climate of fear which I will be 'afraid' to debate the.. whatever your name is.... All in all your just massaging your ego for whatever clique you have formed here.


First of all I would like to adress your last issue first.

I have no clique I have gotten into arguements with people here before, I have stepped on toes, they have stepped on mine, I've pissed off others and been pissed off. So to say that I have a clique wouldn't make any sense

especially since most people here disagree on varying issues.

What you gave me was criticism with insults.

Criticism I can handle but when you attacked my validity as a socialist and called me a philistine then you crossed the line.

I suggest that you take a step back and see where you veered off from trying to engage in personal disscussion with me and attacking me.

By the way I'm aware that I did put some things in my post in an attempt to intimidate however turn about is fair play...of course I never insulted your commitment to the cause.

Something which I believe is the greatest insult you can give a socialist. You might as well have called me a nazi.

And by the way i gave a defence of my opinions with out editing, that was a joke.

Sir...I am american...so what ever culture you feel this country has would be mine then also.

Of course there is no american culture. Because america is not one homegenous mixture.

You have confused America the nation and government with the people that live there.

I never decided to opress the rest of the world, and in reality I never have.

and i'm more than positive that the majority of the american people didn't decide to opress the rest of the world.

blame that on capitalism.

And when did I say that I wanted my culture over anyone elses?

PLease point to me where I said that my ethnic backround should reign supreme and i will happily retract that statement

did you not see me mention asian or european cultures? Niether of which I am?


Did I ever say I want to opress the american people?

PLease cease in your attempt to twist my word.

i advocate cultural equality, not my race and culture over others....

so i was right you are technically calling me a nazi

my God, you just twist people's ideas to the point where it's no longer recognizeable.

Who the hell said I wanted to modify capitalism?

I never mentioned that nor did I imply it.

What I meant by opressing, I meant opresses people.

Of course socialism opresses capitalism.

but that doesn't mean that we should opress pople

and opress those people's culture.

Also..are you aware that there are different forms of socialism?

Because despite the truth you said in the democracy of the working class I'm seeing that you are extremely hostile.

Yes the bourguosie should be taken from power..but do you think it's right to put them in the bottom rung of society?

Once again you are jsut making a class society over again.

Thats right with out culture no books would be written..guess who made the printing press, teh chinese

guess who made the eurpean prinitng a german man by teh name of Gutenberg.

whom without marx woulndn't be able to print all of his works so you couldn't have read his works

so you couldn't have been a socialist.

In fact Marx wouldn't even have thought to think it up

without Thomas more writing utopia and first believeing that private property should be done away with.

Without culture you wouldn't be typing your posts or on a computer.

People would think without culture..but customs which can lead to other ideas or practices wouldn't be spread.

Without Indian culture their would be no inoculations.

It became a common practice their because they shared customs

when people came into contact with people from INdia they learned about it.

On your point regarding religious freedom..when did I say that Protestantism is religious freedom?

I said that the protestant reformation led to growing religious freedom.

What you fail to realize is that the church was more powerful than the US is today.

They controlled everything. They could put a caibash on any dissent in a second.

Why? because there was no printing press.

If, you tried to get your pamphlet out to the people all fifteen of them and you would be taken away and you would be killed

your works burned and so on.

Dissedents were tortued and put to death. Information wasn't spread as fast.

Thanks to Gutenburg ideas could spread

martin luther and John Calvin could spread their beliefs, thus religious freedom became more acceptible.

Of course athiesm was still persecuted, but because of the protestant reformation religion became more free

other religions and beliefs become more accepted.

Also how are you saying my church you don't even know what my religious beliefs are.

Are you trying to pin shit on me just to make your inane arguements?

by the way I'm a democratic socialist not a communist just for future refference though it has little need to be here

"In regards to 'denouncing religion publically'... WHy is it you uphold the current political order of things? Are we not a 'revolutionary community' who aims to smash the state machinery of the capitalist bourgeoisie? Your point about openly opposing religion is rediculous... wasnt Lenin oppressed in opposing tzarist Russia? I guess according to your logic Lenin could never publically oppose it. People in Tzarist Russia and even Colonial United States were shot and executed for their 'protests'... Those who previously critisized government are completely irrelevant to the point.. they had no bearing on the 'freedoms of peoples'; of course with the exception of the united states who initiated the next step in liberation by enforcing the first great bourgeoisie nation whose circumstances permitted the workers the ability to organize. "

Do you like missing my points or is there something you aren't getting?

Are you aware how powerful the catholic church used to be?

You say the czars were powerful? Thats just one monarch

the Pope controlled monarchs. He got french, english, italian, spanish kings to go on crusades..they did it be cause he said so.....

You are underestimating the power the church used to have.

Why did the church loose power?

Because of the reformation.

If it weren't for Gutenburg the spread of ideas wouldn't have been as fast.

With out cultural diffusion then ideas aren't shared.

With out sharing ideas people can't organize

Without the spread of ideas how the hell would lenin have even learned about marx?

There is no way.

Do you know how books used to be written?

Monks used to hand write them....

the litercy rate was about 15% or less in more countries

through the spread of ideas education became more valued.

My point is that Lenin couldn't my point is that Lenin wouldn't.

Unless he was a monarch, priest, or noble he wouldn't have the power.

And if he was a noble in that type of society why would he?


Also how can you say that those who critisized government before are not rellevant?

If marx never critisized capitalism how the fuck would Lenin have been a communist?

If he's not a communist then there is no revolution

but it goes even before

Marx studied the works of others..they influenced him

According to your logic we should all be like "fuck marx"

he critisized the government before outtime so obviously he is not relevant.

Give credit where credit is due.

"Yes Religion is Culture... you say a part of the culture but its the same damn thing because 'culture' is not one article but a collaboration of many. No use in negotiating terminology.. its all the same. "


Didn't I already say that culture isn't one thing?

Do you even read my posts?

Lets anylize religion then.

Christianity

I'm a christian...but I'm also a socialist, black, into hip hop, jazz, and I'm a writer

Billy is a christian...he's a republican, white, likes rock, and plays basketball

me and him don't belong to the smae culture.

Especially since christianity has so many sects.

"Yes you are pro diversity... and yes... diversity is a class.. and you can keep your dictionary I have no use for your capitalist deffinitions (look up democracy in 'your dictionary') "


I would appreciate it if you refrained from calling or relating me to a capitalist

it isn't my fault that you can't tell teh difference between two totally unsimilar words.

Diversity is having many different types..from the root word diverse which means different

Class means different levels.

those defintely aren't the same thing. Get any dictionary int eh world or a thesuars they aren't the same.

and how the hell is diversity a class?

Proletriate is a class, bourguosie is a class

diversity means varying it's not even really a phyiscal thing

i can not belong to the diversity.

Have you ever met a diverse?

"Yes your pro individualism has indeed given you 'super powers' and I should fear you. Grow up. "

Where the hell did I advocate individualism?

If anything i've been stressing how wrong it is.

A CULTURE..is a society...societies aren't made up of one person.

I'm seriously questioning whether or not you know what individualism is.

I will tell you this.

The soviet union had a culture.

Cuba has a culture

china has a culture.

Every achievement of man kind has come from a culture.

"Yes this is the sophistication I expected from you.... your afraid you may be proven wrong and have violated the essencial role of critism which is neccessary so you have to create a climate of fear which I will be 'afraid' to debate the.. whatever your name is.... All in all your just massaging your ego for whatever clique you have formed here."

All i meant by what I said was that you bring your A GAME

don't come at me with half hearted attempts and insults.

PS. by getting rid of culture you destroy the collective conciousness, and societies, so in effect since you don't like cultures or societies you are advocating individualism not me.