Brown,Chicano Pride right up there with Nazism?

[R_P_A_S]

The nationalistic terminology
The Logos,
Their pride for being the true BROWN RACE or "LA RAZA" brown and proud"
the art and even some of the "ideology"
and how they incorporate some of the Aztec Mythology to their present day status in the world.

what do we make of this?

today for the first time I confronted my past. I was not this extreme about LA RAZA before i learned about communism. but I had T-shirts and posters with LA RAZA and all this stuff. though in Mexico LA RAZA does not have an intense meaning as it does for some most Mexican-Americans.

I had a debate with some members of M.E.C.H.A. and other Brown Pride groups. what brought us together was the immigration issues. and our opposition to the Minute Men.

While I felt I offered more and better facts with reliable sources backed by history and a more direct approach. Their arguments were purely based in race and pride.

I started to lose them when i begun to talk about American Foreign Policy and the effects of free trade on 3rd world countries. and they just went bananas when I began to put the blame on Capitalism and their objective that we all here know is solely profits.

They started to argue with me and clearly their opinions were fueled more by emotions than any logic or facts...I was overwhelm and one guy even said...

"it saddens me that raza can sit here and preach that fucking communist propaganda"

I never mentioned communism.. but some how i guess my statements just read commie all over....

he went on to bash communism and how its a shitty government and then i told him that was an oxymoron and I tried to just tell him that no one was ever talking about "a communist government"

Im fucking lost. aren't we all the same class? we are all here proletariat. fuck skin color and nationality.. no war but the class war brother.." i told him and him and this other guy just got pissed off and told me I had to leave the meeting because I'm not chicano....

As I was walking away.. thinking about turning around and giving them a piece of my mind.. one said "is not all about class. is about pride and to show these racist crackers we are better"

when i heard that.. i didn't even bother... im fucking so lost for words.. this is the second encounter with "my people".. that I leave just amazed in the ignorance that plagues us.... :(

[An archist]

myeah, that's the problem with racsim: it's a very easy thing to explain (they're wrong, we are right) so a lot of people fall for it.
It sucks

[Black Dagger]

This reminds me of a time i browsed a brown pride forum (probably one of the biggest ones?) Like you said, many people were openly pro-capitalist and dismissive of anti-racist arguments that contained economic (i.e. anti-capitalist) analysis.

This is the thing about race pride or race consciousness movements/ideas, they are not inherently anti-capitalist - so sometimes you get anti-racism mixed with shit politics, like nationalism or a liberal economic perspective (i.e. capitalism)... and other times you get anti-racism mixed with a socialist or communist economic perspective. From my experience, the latter is actually more common, but yeah obviously it varies from country-to-country etc.

[Dominicana_1965]

When it comes to pride groups i just show them how conservative they truly are, simply identifying as "Brown" is reactionary, it creates a "us" and "them", pride groups seem to take in a lot of cultural Bourgeois influences such as homophobia & sexism without noticing. They lack to notice how completely Capitalist & Bourgeois their actions are, they don't seem to notice that they give themselves and their followers and "their" people essentials, which is a alternative form of private property.

It privatizes human boundaries & what they can do just simply because "your not this, your not that" if you do that. Which gives rises to the policing of society, discipline & punishment by the people, because its not "normative".

Pride groups also tend to claim "my" women, which as all of us can tell is ultimately Bourgeois and reactionary, they would have a problem with a male of another "race" having sexual dominant intercourse with "their" women, so i draw the question.. does it mean that you would rather have females dominated by you? Isn't that reactionary? They have certainly misunderstood what is female liberation.This is what i mean by Bourgeois influences, and the list goes very far when it comes to these groups, i understand they're call for economic equality but its vital to realize that they haven't made a call for cultural change. To a extent they contain hate, which to a extent brings about power instead of justice.

I always argue that in order to gain equality for all we must deconstruct these social constructions, and these pride groups do what the Bourgeois has been doing to these social constructions for years.... BUILDING THEM UP. Creating more layers, the point is to have NO layer. They skip the privileges this current Bourgeois influenced world has given to it's members, such as being a male, a heterosexual, living in the U.S..

[Red Flag Rising]

They are nothing more than fascists with brown skin.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Red Flag [email protected] 24, 2007 05:00 am
They are nothing more than fascists with brown skin.
Could you please explain/justify this statement?

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Red Flag [email protected] 23, 2007 07:00 pm
They are nothing more than fascists with brown skin.
i don't know if I'll go that far.. I mean i did put them up there with Nazism.. BUT BUT i was not serious. thats why i followed it with NOT REALLY...

this is troubling for me.. why? because for the longest time.. ever since i was a young boy and came to the U.S.A. this is something i identified with the most. the whole RAZA! and Brown Pride. It means well. is not out to conquer the world and oppressed others. HELL NO. but the message and attitude is what i have problem with. and now even people who I used to consider my own.. WELL I STILL DO.. are turning their backs on me and against my way of thinking. the new.. Marxist me.

[praxis1966]

Yeah, I've heard and read alot about these so-called brown pride organizations, and I can't say I care for them much. On the one hand La MECHA does do some good things for the community it serves; my girlfriend wouldn't have gotten through college without them, for instance. But on the other, they throw their lot in with groups like the Aztlan movement, which is a bunch of racist, imperialist, ass hats.

To quote something from an Aztlan message board, "Kill any Raza woman who mixes her blood with whites." Well I'm white, my girlfriend's a Salvadoreña, and the last thing we need is a bullet in the culo because some lunatic with a cause feels froggy.

Not to mention that they claim a right to land way north of where the Aztecs lived that they claim to be descended from. The territory of the mythical Aztlan extends all the way into the territory of the Zunni, Hopi, Ute, Pueblo, and other tribal lands which the Aztecs would have had no indigenous claim to anyway. It's really not a question of rightful ownership, it's a question of which imperial power (the U$ or Mexico) should control what's currently the southwest U$. Their claims are historically innaccurate and imperialistic on their face.

[Red Flag Rising]

Could you please explain/justify this statement?

Yes.

If they put their race ahead of their political concerns they are taking a fascist tact. If they have brown skin, i.e. they are mestizos, and do this, then they are fascists with brown skin.

Do you get that commrade? Or should I slow it down a bit for you?

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by RFR+--> (RFR)Do you get that commrade? Or should I slow it down a bit for you?[/b]

No need to be a complete douche-bag. :rolleyes:


RFR
If they put their race ahead of their political concerns they are taking a fascist tact. If they have brown skin, i.e. they are mestizos, and do this, then they are fascists with brown skin.

The problem i have with your characterisation is that what you're describing has nothing to do with fascism.

Nationalism of the oppressed and white nationalism or indeed fascism (the real kind) are not analogous.

[black magick hustla]

There is a reason why Mecha is considered by many groups a hate-group.

[Red Flag Rising]

Nationalism of the oppressed and white nationalism or indeed fascism (the real kind) are not analogous.

Nationalism and racism are two hallmarks of fascism.

If it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck and generally acts like a duck it is a duck.

[Spartacist]

Red Flag is right, CompañeroDeLibertad. Don't go around telling people what they know and don't know then tell them to read a tract you did not write. If a group or individual are racist and nationalistic I'd say they were fascist as well.

As for the suggestion that we make petty differentiations between who is this and that i say blah. Our problem has been squabbling over these petty details. Either we are Marxist revolutionaries or not. Shoot those on the right and ask questions later.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 11:59 pm
Red Flag is right, CompañeroDeLibertad. Don't go around telling people what they know and don't know then tell them to read a tract you did not write. If a group or individual are racist and nationalistic I'd say they were fascist as well.

As for the suggestion that we make petty differentiations between who is this and that i say blah. Our problem has been squabbling over these petty details. Either we are Marxist revolutionaries or not. Shoot those on the right and ask questions later.
The thing is that the term "fascist" gets thrown around by leftist hyperbole to such an extent that it is meaningless.

Vicente Fox is fascist.

George Bush is fascist.

Now what, Ghandi was a fascist?

[praxis1966]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 25, 2007 04:25 pm
Sorry, Mexico is not, and has never been imperialist. Please learn what imperialism is (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65550) before throwing the term around.
I think you are the one whom should read his own link. The Aztecs that the Aztlan movement claim to be descended from were in fact highly imperialist, as they had a habit of wiping out smaller, less militarily capable tribes and seizing their land. And, claiming that this mythical Aztlan territory should be controlled by Mexico is, in fact, an imperialist stance since neither the Mexicans nor the Aztecs have a historic claim to said lands. Support of Mexico regaining control over them is as much de facto support of imperialism as is U$ claims to the region.

My point is, the tribes et al that I mentioned above are the true owners, and the only peoples with a historicly valid claim. To argue anything else is to argue in favor of imperialism.

Oh, by the way, you're wrong about Mexico never being an imperial power. The history of the Chiapas region is proof positive of it. In 1842 when the CAF collapsed, Mexico took advantage and annexed a good portion of the region. Then, in the 1880s under the Porifio Diaz government, it solidified it's control and seized the rest of the region. It was all part of a general policy of southern expansion that had been going on since the 1820s. (Nevermind the constant encroachment on communally owned tribal lands by the haciendas, which Diaz supported).

So go on. Say something else so I can prove you wrong again.

[Cheung Mo]

There've been fascistic ideologies before there was civilisation in Europe...The entire Old Testament tells the story of how Yhwh's Master Race conquered the Holy Land and slaughtered innocents in his name.

[Luís Henrique]

Aztlan aren't fascists... they just want to be it when they grow up.

Luís Henrique

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by praxis1966+May 28, 2007 01:36 am--> (praxis1966 @ May 28, 2007 01:36 am)
Compañ[email protected] 25, 2007 04:25 pm
Sorry, Mexico is not, and has never been imperialist. Please learn what imperialism is (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65550) before throwing the term around.
I think you are the one whom should read his own link. The Aztecs that the Aztlan movement claim to be descended from were in fact highly imperialist, as they had a habit of wiping out smaller, less militarily capable tribes and seizing their land. And, claiming that this mythical Aztlan territory should be controlled by Mexico is, in fact, an imperialist stance since neither the Mexicans nor the Aztecs have a historic claim to said lands. Support of Mexico regaining control over them is as much de facto support of imperialism as is U$ claims to the region.

My point is, the tribes et al that I mentioned above are the true owners, and the only peoples with a historicly valid claim. To argue anything else is to argue in favor of imperialism.

Oh, by the way, you're wrong about Mexico never being an imperial power. The history of the Chiapas region is proof positive of it. In 1842 when the CAF collapsed, Mexico took advantage and annexed a good portion of the region. Then, in the 1880s under the Porifio Diaz government, it solidified it's control and seized the rest of the region. It was all part of a general policy of southern expansion that had been going on since the 1820s. (Nevermind the constant encroachment on communally owned tribal lands by the haciendas, which Diaz supported).

So go on. Say something else so I can prove you wrong again. [/b]
what is the CAF???

[praxis1966]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 08:35 pm
what is the CAF???
More appropriately, what was. It means the Central American Federation. Originally, the states of Nicaragua, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, most of Chiapas, and a region known as Los Altos were unified under one central government. The government disolved as a result of civil war in the 1840s.

Wikipedia Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_American_Federation)

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by praxis1966+May 30, 2007 02:55 am--> (praxis1966 @ May 30, 2007 02:55 am)
[email protected] 29, 2007 08:35 pm
what is the CAF???
More appropriately, what was. It means the Central American Federation. Originally, the states of Nicaragua, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, most of Chiapas, and a region known as Los Altos were unified under one central government. The government disolved as a result of civil war in the 1840s.

Wikipedia Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_American_Federation) [/b]
i missed my opportunity of going to Paris so I could spit on Porfirio Diaz grave... I will be back though...

[Chicano Shamrock]

I know what you mean. I have many times tried to talk to some co-workers and what not about the way shit is going down. How we are held down in society like others who aren't Mexican and that we should try to branch together and be as strong as we can. Then I get all kinds of shit how "the mayate's don't want to do shit and this and that" and I just get so pissed how they play right into the fucking scheme. Mexicans and blacks are both living in shit holes and like a bunch of idiots we are all fighting each other while the capitalists get richer when we buy the bullets and liquor to kill each other.

I am proud of being Chicano but some take it too far.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Cheung [email protected] 28, 2007 04:00 pm
There've been fascistic ideologies before there was civilisation in Europe...The entire Old Testament tells the story of how Yhwh's Master Race conquered the Holy Land and slaughtered innocents in his name.
That makes absolutely no sense. What you're describing is a racist ideology, not fascist.

[R_P_A_S]

There was a rally outside ABC/Disney TV studios, in protest of the racist propaganda TV show "Homeland Security U.S.A." MEChA was there and so were some of the racist ignorant minute men and their supporters, 10 minutes into the march it turned into a nationalist yelling match.. :crying:

[Ben Chaser]

Once La Raza declares itself chancellors for life of Los Estados Unidos, then they will give Hitler a run for his money. As it is now La Raza is a voice for an oppressed group, and they publish a newspaper in Chicago and other places that is a valuable source for unilingual Spanish speaking workers and families. Communism is misunderstood by most people, and it is our role to share what we know. Working class response to communist propaganda, whether the worker is white latino samoan or what have you, is colored by stalinism, the cold war, the state of the worker's movement and so much more. Latina/os who I have worked with have deep class consciousness...they are living the life of the American proletariat in the early part of the twentieth century (also largely immigrant) that was so successfully radicalized by the IWW and speakers like Red Emma.
We can radicalize these folks and make them our compas. If they are caught up in being proud and brown, let them know about the actions in Chiapas and Oaxaca, or the Bolivian workers who kicked out Bechtel for privatizing the water. I don't fault these folks for having a little brown pride when whatever else they had has been taken from them by wage slavery and the state. Hasta la victoria siempre! America libre!

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Im fucking lost. aren't we all the same class? we are all here proletariat. fuck skin color and nationality.. no war but the class war brother.." i told him and him and this other guy just got pissed off and told me I had to leave the meeting because I'm not chicano....

While I, to some extent, agree with you, there are two things I would like to point out:

1) The word proletariat was a great word to use back in the days when Karl Marx was still alive and writing, but these days it's archaic. A better term would be working class.

2) Whether you agree with someone on everything or not, the important key to organizing is to work with those you're working with where they are at. Otherwise you'd be of no consequence. In on the ground organizing there is no luxury of purity. I'd recommend working completely off the common ground you have with whoever your working with while trying to avoid any rhetoric that may push them away.

"The basic requirement for the understanding of the politics of change is to recognize the world as it is. We must work with it on it's terms if we are to change it into the kind of world we would like it to be. We must first see the world as it is and not as we would like it to be"
-Saul D. Alinsky; "Rules For Radicals"

[Melbourne Lefty]

Aztlan aren't fascists... they just want to be it when they grow up.

Luís Henrique

Spot on!

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

There was a rally outside ABC/Disney TV studios, in protest of the racist propaganda TV show "Homeland Security U.S.A." MEChA was there and so were some of the racist ignorant minute men and their supporters, 10 minutes into the march it turned into a nationalist yelling match.. :crying:

Heh, on the east coast Mecha is bang on. Without the heavy, heavy Mexican American population they have to moderate it more to a pan Hispanic sentiment which is tied into solid class analysis. For example they do a lot of good stuff around the CIW. In fact, most MECHA folks I know are pretty sympatico. Though they may like my honky white ass more because I speak fairly fluent spanish.