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redstarshining
15th January 2003, 13:20
I was just having a discussion with a few friends of mine about whether or not it is legitimate to be "proud" of belonging to a certain ethnicity, culture or nation.
Personally, I do not think so. Nobody can choose what culture or nationality he is born into, so what sense does it make to be proud of it?

I think that if people feel the need to define their identity by such factors, instead of being proud of their own achievements, it is a sign for a latent sickness in society. It indicates that the current form of our society does not offer the necessary space for people to find to their own identity. One of the reasons may be that
everyone is a little part in a huge chain of processes of work. These processes require the worker to invest a huge amount of work, but at the end of the process chain is something of very little value to society as a whole. I can not identify with my work, and I bet most working class people feel the same. Work however, is the foundation of any society.

Of course, now you could say, then I'll just identify with my 'culture'. Except of nationality there is nothing which makes your culture "your" culture. Each culture is more or less just the product of many foreign cultures. You can like it or hate it, but although you are part of it you have little or no influence on it. I'm unsure of this one.

Also, if you are proud of a nation, not a nationality, you are proud of EVERYTHING that is part of that nation, also it's history, which makes as much sense as being proud of the planet, or proud of the universe.

But before I go on, does anyone know the "official" definition of pride? Can you be proud of someone elses achievements?

Rightwing nationalism is everywhere on the rise, even my closest friends tell me they are "proud to be german" although they have NO CLUE what pride means. Instead of arguing reasonably many of them are playing the "look like a true individual and question the holocaust game". Sometimes I just want to shoot myself. Or maybe I'll move to the northpole or Greenland.

Fires of History
15th January 2003, 13:58
I agree with you that national pride is one of the silliest and most arbitrary sources of pride there is. It's nothing more than saying, "I'm really, really proud I was born here. Not there, because here is better." Such pride adds to nationalistic egotism, and consequently, wars.

But there is something to be said for other types. Such as say Black pride or Gay pride. These are groups whose pride is rooted in the fact that they have been persecuted and oppressed, and their pride is just an expression of their commitment and love for that which society would have them believe is wrong.

Conghaileach
15th January 2003, 18:57
FoH, like colour a person does not choose which country into which she/he will be born. However, there are many nationalities who have been oppresssed - specifically by imperialism (for instance, Cuba by both Spain and the US, or Ireland by Britain).

What makes the national pride of people who have been persecuted any worse than pride based on colour or sexual inclination?

Anonymous
15th January 2003, 21:16
well one can be happy or love hiscountry, a litle patriotismisntnecessarly bad, yet patriotic education will drift to nationalism... thats for shure, the main oriblem is that nowdays kids are like forced to love theyrcountry, and all that crap, if only they teached kids to respect all countrys and races now that would be kick ass....

redstarshining
15th January 2003, 21:45
FoH, I agree, in those cases pride is justified. Those who are oppressed and still fight and resist against prejudice and oppression have achieved something. Resistance can also mean an inner resistance by not losing faith in oneself and everything that defines ones personality ( it is far easier to feel ashamed for belonging to an oppressed minority or developing hatred and prejudice oneself ).

Guardia Bolivariano
15th January 2003, 22:13
Having pride is good It keeps that person's culture alive and by doing that makes the world a more diverse place.But like all things It has a limit.

Hegemonicretribution
15th January 2003, 22:56
Pride should not be taught, it should be discovered, only then is it personal to that person, and them feeling the pride. Pride like many other things is of use, but easily abused. Pride can lead to blindeness/narrow mindedness. Pride will often missused, and can be seen as arrogance and prejudicial. If a child says "America is the greatest nation on earth" They are may be seen as patriotic, but they are also seeing themselves as superior, and this self branding inherently means that they are prejudicial, as they look down on others.

redstar2000
16th January 2003, 00:55
I can't see taking pride in anything that you didn't CHOOSE.

Jaha
16th January 2003, 02:08
Pride?

What is pride? I mean, really. Is it not simple arogance? And don't you just hate arogant people?

I think i made my point...

bolshevik1917
16th January 2003, 06:45
Black pride, Gay pride etc are all wrong as far as I can see.

For example in America when they tried to build a black nationalist party (too help black workers apparently) they did not realise that the only way forward was CLASS unity with white workers, hispanice workers etc.

The world is not divided into nations or races, but classes. We should not be sidetracked by pride in petty things that are irrelivant to us, and have nothing to offer us.

Anonymous
16th January 2003, 19:10
i believe pride in this sense means, love ore atraction by ones roots... it canbe wrong, yet i dont see the problem in liking your country.. its natural to enjoy the place of birth...

but once again this has to be a moderated pride, or else it will turn into nationalism..

redstarshining
16th January 2003, 20:40
Main Entry: 1pride
Pronunciation: 'prId
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English pryde, from prud proud -- more at PROUD
Date: before 12th century
1 : the quality or state of being proud: as a : inordinate self-esteem : CONCEIT b : a reasonable or justifiable self-respect c : delight or elation arising from some act, possession, or relationship <parental pride>
2 : proud or disdainful behavior or treatment : DISDAIN
3 a : ostentatious display b : highest pitch : PRIME
4 : a source of pride : the best in a group or class
5 : a company of lions
6 : a showy or impressive group <a pride of dancers>

Taken from Merriam-Webster OnLine Dictionary at http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary.

I have chosen this particular definition because it's the only one I could find which I can take somehow seriously.

how can you be proud of your roots, society or nationality( in a positive sense )?
In my opionion:

1a: does not apply

1b: Yes, if it refers to ones actions, but not ones nationality ( otherwise it wouldn't make any sense )

1c: Yes, if it refers to the achievement of not denying to belong to a minority. OR: if you have taken part in building up a society you are really satisfied with. I'd be careful with that though, because a society consists of many factors. I would say it is only legitimate if you feel content with the majority of things that determine the character of the society you are proud of.

2: does not apply

3,4,5,6: does not apply