The Minutemen

[DiggerII]

Last night I got in a huge argument with a member of the minutemen, the group that tries to stop illegal immigrants from coming across the southern border. He made some rather funny claims about how entitlements for poor people brought the fall of the Roman Empire, and that the U.S. was built on the backs of his parents' generation (contrary to my claim that it was built by slaves), and that the actions of his organization are in no way racist.

Do the minutemen constitute an actual political force in the United States?

Are they just another face of KKK?

Are they racist?

thoughts and/or links would be great.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Yes they are racist and yes they are at least inspired by the Klan

Before the Minutemen, there was the Klan Border Watch (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=360)
One Saturday with the racist minuteklan (Youtube video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOlMYhRF-dY&mode=related&search=)

[dso79]

A group like the Minutemen may be very popular with racists, but that doesn’t mean that every member is a racist. Racism is not the only reason why people might oppose immigration; many of the people who live near the border oppose it because they are concerned for their safety or the safety of their family, while others are worried about the economic impact.

You can’t ignore the fact that (some) immigrants cause a lot of problems in those areas. There is a lot of crime, drugs, gang activity etc, which makes people want to join groups like the Minutemen.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

More Racist Minutemen Clips (http://www.minutemenunvarnished.com/minutesite/home.html)

[Labor Shall Rule]

They are not only racist, they are all-out fascists.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

I saw something about these chaps on TV.

Racist-Facist fuckwits they tried to shoot some mexicans who were just riding bikes near the border the only reason they didn't was 'cause of the cameras

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 10:25 pm
They are not only racist, they are all-out fascists.
werd

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 04:23 pm
Are they just another face of KKK?

Are they racist?

Minutemen: the Neo-Nazi Front Group (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=13)

[Rawthentic]

Yeah, these motherfuckers have even gone into Black neighborhoods to portray immigrants as enemies.

They think they are fighting some freedom struggle to preserve their "great country", while at the same time condemning the government for not being strict on immigration.

They will all go to hell. :angry:

[Janus]

Do the minutemen constitute an actual political force in the United States?
Yes, they've grown considerably and they're becoming more aggressive.

Past discussions:
Minutemen (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=62357&hl=minutemen)
Minutemen (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=61962&hl=minutemen)


Are they just another face of KKK?
No, but they are very much a reaction to the times just like the KKK were back in their formative years.


Are they racist?
Yes, many of them are.

[LSD]

Racism is not the only reason why people might oppose immigration

Maybe not, but it's the primary one.

Every single "minute man" is not a raging bigot, but they're all motivated by deeply racist stereotypes and caricatures. Otherwise, they wouldn't be spending their free afternoons standing in the hot desert looking out for "aliens".


many of the people who live near the border oppose it because they are concerned for their safety or the safety of their family

And why do you suppose they are under the illusion that "illegal immigration" has anything to do with either of those things?

Could it be, oh I don't know, because they're of the opinion that all "brown people" are dangerous violent felons? Well there's a word for that kind of thinking, racism.

Again, that doesn't mean that they're aware that they're beliefs are racist, it just means that they are. Indeed, I would imagine that most racists are such without realizing it.

The population that actively identifies as racist (the "white power" crowd") is virtually nonexistant.

I mean not even the Klan, that mothership of American racist groups, can claim more than a couple active chapters; probably less than 100,000 committed Klansmen in total.

No, the real problem of racism today comes out of groups with "legitimate" aims, aims like "protecting the borders" or "fighting terrorism".

For those few still dedicated to active political racism, it's called "mainstreaming" and it's a far more effective tactic to "spread the message" than running around in white hoods chanting secret incantations.

Because while someone like you would never in a million years support a group like the Klan, you're about two hairs away from supporting the Minutemen. And that's on a far left message board!

Just imagine how appealing they must be to people more in the political "centre"!


while others are worried about the economic impact.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, I'm sure that's it.

[Demogorgon]

Well they differ from the Klan in terms of various details (they are born out of a different time period after all) but for all practical purposes, they are the modern equivalent and are beyond a doubt are motivated by the same kind of racism.

People talk about people suporting the Minutement for vrious economic reasons or fear about security or whatnot. Well that is just like the Klan. These days the Klan has fallen back to a Neo-Nazi hardcore, but back in the day they were much wider and definitely included poorer whites deluded by more casual racism and capitalist propoganda into believing their economic problems were being caused by Blacks and things like either reconstruction or the civil rights movement depending on what era you are going to pick. At times the Klan were even respectable. All the "best" people joined. And look at ther portrayal in Birth Of A Nation.

The parallels witht he minutemen are pretty striking.

[Tekun]

The Minutemen are quite the characters down here in Southern Cali,...protesting on street corners, intimidating undocumented workers, waving their fuckin flags, trying to start shit with whoever sympathizes with immigrants, etc.

Are they racists? Of course they are, but more specifically they're closet racists
Meaning that most of them don't openly display their racism, but hide it behind the laws and rules that they claim to protect and abide by
Therefore when once accuses them of being racist, they counter with that whole "upholding the laws of this country" bullshit
Once in awhile they'll let their guard down and exhibit the traits of the bigots they are by arguing that Latin American immigrants refuse to acclimate to American customs and behavior, thus suggesting that anyother customs are somehow bad or inferior...fuckin ridiculous
Other times they'll use the argument that immigrants break the law and therefore shouldn't be allowed into this country, yet even as normal everyday citizens they disregard the contributions and sacrifice of millions of workers who have given so much to the ppl of this country, not to mention the fact that its not only immigrants who break the law
They obviously feel threatened by the changing demographics and feel that the laws could help sustain the racial and social status quo
On other occasions, they'll even go as far as to blame immigrants for lowering wages, which we all know is as ludicrous as any bill congress passes to reform immigration laws
Those that use this argument are for the most part working class ppl who feel cheated by capitalism, and look for the nearest and most despised scapegoat to place the blame on
They disregard the fact that employers are the one's lowering wages, that employers are the capitalists that are cheating so many ppl out of a hard earned living
They basically choose to ignore common sense, and they get swept up with the racist tide in this country
What makes me laugh is all the latinos, afroamericans, asians, and all the other non-caucasians that share the minutemen's philosophy and also work alongside the minutemen, you'd think they'd understand as immigrants themselves

As far as the Klan and the Minutemen, I've heard that they've cooperated on more than one occasion here in SoCal
But I think the Klan that terrorized AfroAmericans in the past isn't the same Klan of today; they're actions and tactics have changed to keep them outside the can and this is what most Minutemen avoid, jail time (bad publicity)


And for the one member who mentioned that immigrants cause problems,...since when did immigrants committ 100% of the crimes in this country?
Furthermore, have u forgotten that far more citizens committ crimes than immigrants
Aside from that, have u ever considered why ppl committ crimes? Maybe they're fed up with the injustices and inequality in this country? Let's start thinking outside the box my friend

[dso79]

I’m trying to look at the situation from the perspective of the people who live near the border.

It may very well be that the problems that immigrants cause are wildly exaggerated (I live in Europe, so I don’t know that much about the situation there), but that’s not really the point. What matters is that many people believe that immigrants are a threat. That doesn’t necessarily mean that those people are ’evil racists’; most of them are just afraid. Their concerns should be addressed, not ignored; we need to show them that capitalism is the real problem. Their beliefs may indeed be racist in nature, but as long as they’re not hardcore white supremacists those beliefs can be changed.

I feel that by simply branding everybody who opposes immigration a racist, we are alienating the people we are fighting for, i.e. the working class.

[metalero]

but in your earlier message you simply fell in the bandwagon of blaming on inmigrants the typical problems of capitalism and the social relations rising from unequal distribution of wealth and lack of rights. You shouldn't bother trying to change the mind of these proto-fascists, but rather educate the people in your town and expose to them the underlying racist rethoric behind these groups, as LSD explained.

[Janus]

That doesn’t necessarily mean that those people are ’evil racists’; most of them are just afraid.
And that fear and discontent usually leads to downright racist attacks. It happens whenever people have perceived foreigners as an economic threat whether they're Mexican, Chinese, Italian...

This is definitely an issue that needs to addressed but buying into the Minutemen's arguement of protecting "helpless" Americans on the border and in the rest of the nation from this threat only plays into their hands. Not everyone who opposes immigration is automatically a racist but usually they're definitely somewhere near there and taking a strong progressive stance is necessary rather than trying to attract more support with popular but reactionary positions.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

They are xenophobes, as I understand it. Whether or not that constitutes racism is (apparently) a matter of individual opinion.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 10:19 am
A group like the Minutemen may be very popular with racists, but that doesn’t mean that every member is a racist. Racism is not the only reason why people might oppose immigration; many of the people who live near the border oppose it because they are concerned for their safety or the safety of their family, while others are worried about the economic impact.

You can’t ignore the fact that (some) immigrants cause a lot of problems in those areas. There is a lot of crime, drugs, gang activity etc, which makes people want to join groups like the Minutemen.
Yes every single member of the minutemen are racist. I don't care who they are. I don't care where they live.

I can't ignore the "fact" that some immigrants cause problems. I don't know that it is a fact as I don't live too close to the border. I am about an hour or two away from the southern californian border and I know nothing of immigrants causing problems. But if some do then that is not much proof of anything because many more "non-immigrants" cause more problems than the immigrants.

So gang activity makes people want to join in legalized gang activity with the minutemen? What a sad world.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 11:44 am
I’m trying to look at the situation from the perspective of the people who live near the border.

It may very well be that the problems that immigrants cause are wildly exaggerated (I live in Europe, so I don’t know that much about the situation there), but that’s not really the point. What matters is that many people believe that immigrants are a threat. That doesn’t necessarily mean that those people are ’evil racists’; most of them are just afraid. Their concerns should be addressed, not ignored; we need to show them that capitalism is the real problem. Their beliefs may indeed be racist in nature, but as long as they’re not hardcore white supremacists those beliefs can be changed.

I feel that by simply branding everybody who opposes immigration a racist, we are alienating the people we are fighting for, i.e. the working class.
Oh shit I thought you lived close to the border in the US from your first post. Like I said I live 2 hours from the border and know nothing of immigrants causing problems in the area. I really believe it is a myth that the racists make. If you didn't watch TV or read the capitalist news you would know nothing about the so called "immigration problem" around here. This is only about 2 hours from the border by the way and that seems to speak loudly to me.

Believing that immigrants are a threat is a racist belief. There is no way around it.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 02:37 pm

That doesn’t necessarily mean that those people are ’evil racists’; most of them are just afraid.
And that fear and discontent usually leads to downright racist attacks. It happens whenever people have perceived foreigners as an economic threat whether they're Mexican, Chinese, Italian...
That is probably the saddest thing about the situation. People with history of being oppressed as foreigners in America have now jumped on the bandwagon against "illegals". Italians are called WOPS. Some people don't know what that means. If you are Italian you better know what that means. It means WithOut Papers. They were illegals then. So were the Irish. In shops they had signs saying "No Irish need apply". And now it is just horribly sad to see the Irish or Italian participating in this nationalist bullshit.

[dso79]

And for the one member who mentioned that immigrants cause problems,...since when did immigrants committ 100% of the crimes in this country?
Furthermore, have u forgotten that far more citizens committ crimes than immigrants


but in your earlier message you simply fell in the bandwagon of blaming on inmigrants the typical problems of capitalism and the social relations rising from unequal distribution of wealth and lack of rights.

Just to clarify, I never said immigrants were to blame for all the problems, or that every immigrant is a criminal, but it’s a fact that some immigrants do commit crimes. Of course that doesn’t say anything about immigrants in general, but it’s still likely that such crimes scare some people into supporting the Minutemen.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 01:20 pm
Just to clarify, I never said immigrants were to blame for all the problems, or that every immigrant is a criminal, but it’s a fact that some immigrants do commit crimes. Of course that doesn’t say anything about immigrants in general, but it’s still likely that such crimes scare some people into supporting the Minutemen.
It's a fact that humans commit crimes. As long as immigrants are human how is this evidence of anything? And where is the evidence of these facts?

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 04:14 am

many of the people who live near the border oppose it because they are concerned for their safety or the safety of their family

And why do you suppose they are under the illusion that "illegal immigration" has anything to do with either of those things?

Could it be, oh I don't know, because they're of the opinion that all "brown people" are dangerous violent felons? Well there's a word for that kind of thinking, racism.




______________

OK. here is where I have trouble defending immigrants... when they start bringing up the gangs and all the crime and stuff... Not all immigrants bring crime and gangs to the U.S. very VERY few immigrants give in to a life of crime. they mainly want to work. thats their sole purpose of being in the U.S.A.

BUT! there is a large.. VERY LARGE number of Gangs and crime.. and many of the offenders happen to be Mexicans, Salvadorians and such.. we make up a large part of the population. so thats why that accusation that we bring crime and gangs.. is sometimes hard to defend against it.

so its easy for you to say that is just a stereo type and racism.. and i agree because it is. not all of us are like that. But is very hard to debate this because all they have to do is look at the statistics or you.. try walking around south central L.A. or souther San Diego, Nogales.. is not anglos or chinese that are always in jail or "in gangs".. its us..

I'm just saying they always throw that in our face and we can't really defend against it.

[Janus]

so its easy for you to say that is just a stereo type and racism.. and i agree because it is. not all of us are like that. But is very hard to debate this because all they have to do is look at the statistics or you.. try walking around south central L.A. or souther San Diego, Nogales.. is not anglos or chinese that are always in jail or "in gangs".. its us..
Well, the disporportionate numbers of African-Americans and Hispanics in the criminal detention system is more of a representation of the socio-economic disparity and the institutional racism within the nation than a measure of any innate violent behavior. It's simply not a coincidence that African-Americans and Hispanics also make up a large percentage of the lower and poverty stricken classes as well.

And as far as Asians and immigrants of other nationalities go, you have to keep in mind that the Asian population in foreign nations such as the US should not be taken to represent the entirety of their native population but only a sliver of it mainly the intellectual/upper section of it. Thus, these people are much more likely to have high skilled jobs and much less likely to be involved in crime.

[dso79]

It's a fact that humans commit crimes. As long as immigrants are human how is this evidence of anything? And where is the evidence of these facts?

Like I said, it doesn’t say anything about immigrants, it says something about certain individuals and about the conditions in which immigrants live. But people don’t always think rationally. When they read something about an illegal immigrant killing somebody many just think “well, if that guy hadn’t been here this wouldn‘t have happened”.

[Joseph Ball]

I don't know where dso79 is coming from. Yes of course there are loads of people in the West who perceive immigrants as being a problem. For example, the Netherlands is full of ignorant, white racists who hate the muslim minority in their country but then does our politics really have to pander to the views of a lot of white, western morons?

White westerners benefit from the super-profits created by the oppressed peoples of the world. The oppressed peoples work hard so that the white westerner can live soft. For example, the Indian, Chinese, Mexican worker is paid far below the value of their labour so that western workers can get cheap goods and western corporations can make big profits. In Britain the majority of our manufactures are sourced from oppressed nations and the economy is based on the so-called 'finance sector'. So basically, we are not performing any genunine exchange for these manufactures, we are just using our capital and world political and military power to live off the unpaid period of labour-time of the oppressed peoples (the surplus value they produce which takes the form of super-profits due to the imperialist relations they produce under).

Racism is just the self-justification of the exploiter peoples for their debased and barbaric treatment of the world proletariat.

[R_P_A_S]

They obviously feel threatened by the changing demographics and feel that the laws could help sustain the racial and social status quo
On other occasions, they'll even go as far as to blame immigrants for lowering wages, which we all know is as ludicrous as any bill congress passes to reform immigration laws
Those that use this argument are for the most part working class ppl who feel cheated by capitalism, and look for the nearest and most despised scapegoat to place the blame on
They disregard the fact that employers are the one's lowering wages, that employers are the capitalists that are cheating so many ppl out of a hard earned living
They basically choose to ignore common sense, and they get swept up with the racist tide in this country

Is there any way we can come up with some prime examples of how Capitalism is to blame for all this. as opposed immigrants?

This is some good shit people! and the discussions that are coming out of this could be use as tools if only we broke it down more and sort of simplify it. We could use this info to pass out at their damn protest.

i need more info on how capitalism is too blame

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 08:58 am

They obviously feel threatened by the changing demographics and feel that the laws could help sustain the racial and social status quo
On other occasions, they'll even go as far as to blame immigrants for lowering wages, which we all know is as ludicrous as any bill congress passes to reform immigration laws
Those that use this argument are for the most part working class ppl who feel cheated by capitalism, and look for the nearest and most despised scapegoat to place the blame on
They disregard the fact that employers are the one's lowering wages, that employers are the capitalists that are cheating so many ppl out of a hard earned living
They basically choose to ignore common sense, and they get swept up with the racist tide in this country

Is there any way we can come up with some prime examples of how Capitalism is to blame for all this. as opposed immigrants?

This is some good shit people! and the discussions that are coming out of this could be use as tools if only we broke it down more and sort of simplify it. We could use this info to pass out at their damn protest.

i need more info on how capitalism is too blame
Heres a pamphlet on Racism and Capitalism

http://www.plp.org/pamphlets/smash_racism.html

[R_P_A_S]

who wrote this?

[Janus]

Is there any way we can come up with some prime examples of how Capitalism is to blame for all this. as opposed immigrants?
Simple, in order to maximize their profits, capitalists seek to reduce wages as much as possible. Obviously, this is much easier accomplished with illegal immigrants who are willing to work for less and who are much less likely to unify and generate any opposition to the owners.


who wrote this?
Someone from the Progressive Labor Party.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 08:57 pm

Is there any way we can come up with some prime examples of how Capitalism is to blame for all this. as opposed immigrants?
Simple, in order to maximize their profits, capitalists seek to reduce wages as much as possible. Obviously, this is much easier accomplished with illegal immigrants who are willing to work for less and who are much less likely to unify and generate any opposition to the owners.


who wrote this?
Someone from the Progressive Labor Party.
I'm really sorry about dragging this thread.. we aren't even on the subject... BUT can i get some links to some present day works that explain wages. i have the old marx stuff. but i would like some present day examples.. if is cool

[dso79]

I don't know where dso79 is coming from. Yes of course there are loads of people in the West who perceive immigrants as being a problem. For example, the Netherlands is full of ignorant, white racists who hate the muslim minority in their country but then does our politics really have to pander to the views of a lot of white, western morons?

I’m from the Netherlands myself, so I know all about the situation. We should definitely not pander to their views, but we must also not forget that many of those ‘white, western morons’ are working class people, so we shouldn’t give up on them so easily either.

A lot of workers (not just those in western countries) have some rather reactionary views (homophobia, racism etc). These views are often based on irrational fears and therefore, with a little effort, can be changed. If we just turn our backs on those people we will not only lose their support, we are also allowing racism to continue.

[Janus]

BUT can i get some links to some present day works that explain wages.
You mean like this?
Understanding capitalism: Wages (http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/capitalism_wages.htm)

[Joseph Ball]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 09:48 pm


I’m from the Netherlands myself, so I know all about the situation. We should definitely not pander to their views, but we must also not forget that many of those ‘white, western morons’ are working class people, so we shouldn’t give up on them so easily either.

A lot of workers (not just those in western countries) have some rather reactionary views (homophobia, racism etc). These views are often based on irrational fears and therefore, with a little effort, can be changed. If we just turn our backs on those people we will not only lose their support, we are also allowing racism to continue.
Yes, OK its great if you can convince white racists to see the light but how often does that happen? White westerners materially benefit from the super-profits earned from the exploitation of the oppressed peoples. Racism is the ideological justification of this plunder. Are we really going to make a revolution by convincing white westerners to rebel against their own priviliges?

There is another alternative. That is the alternative that sees the workers and peasants in the oppressed nations as the vanguard. Their revolution will cut off the western sources of super-profits and lead to world socialism. Maoists used to argue that the global countryside will surround the towns to make revolution i.e. the oppressed nations will come to socialism first and then surround the oppressor nations before mounting the final offensive to create world socialism. In the modern world maybe it makes more sense to say that the global countryside plus the global slum (given urbanisation in the developing world) will surround the oppressor nations. It may sound unrealistic but mass Maoist movement exist in Nepal and India. In the Moslem countries national resistance to imperialism is reaching boiling point and there has been a mass rejection (of sorts) of imperialist ideology in Latin America.

I would urge people to examine this question. Various debates on the Maoist Internationalist Movement website and the Its Right to Resist website are of interest here. Be warned these organisations have a record of launching vicious verbal attacks on Maoist leaders due to their tendency to jump to conclusions about important matters. But there is much here of great interest too.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by Joseph Ball+May 26, 2007 03:37 pm--> (Joseph Ball @ May 26, 2007 03:37 pm)
[email protected] 24, 2007 09:48 pm


I’m from the Netherlands myself, so I know all about the situation. We should definitely not pander to their views, but we must also not forget that many of those ‘white, western morons’ are working class people, so we shouldn’t give up on them so easily either.

A lot of workers (not just those in western countries) have some rather reactionary views (homophobia, racism etc). These views are often based on irrational fears and therefore, with a little effort, can be changed. If we just turn our backs on those people we will not only lose their support, we are also allowing racism to continue.
Yes, OK its great if you can convince white racists to see the light but how often does that happen? White westerners materially benefit from the super-profits earned from the exploitation of the oppressed peoples. Racism is the ideological justification of this plunder. Are we really going to make a revolution by convincing white westerners to rebel against their own priviliges?

There is another alternative. That is the alternative that sees the workers and peasants in the oppressed nations as the vanguard. Their revolution will cut off the western sources of super-profits and lead to world socialism. Maoists used to argue that the global countryside will surround the towns to make revolution i.e. the oppressed nations will come to socialism first and then surround the oppressor nations before mounting the final offensive to create world socialism. In the modern world maybe it makes more sense to say that the global countryside plus the global slum (given urbanisation in the developing world) will surround the oppressor nations. It may sound unrealistic but mass Maoist movement exist in Nepal and India. In the Moslem countries national resistance to imperialism is reaching boiling point and there has been a mass rejection (of sorts) of imperialist ideology in Latin America.

I would urge people to examine this question. Various debates on the Maoist Internationalist Movement website and the Its Right to Resist website are of interest here. Be warned these organisations have a record of launching vicious verbal attacks on Maoist leaders due to their tendency to jump to conclusions about important matters. But there is much here of great interest too. [/b]
Class struggle is not a struggle of ethnicity and we shouldn't turn it into that.

[Joseph Ball]

No, class struggle is not a matter of ethnicity. But in the West the majority of the population do benefit from super-profit exploitation. I refer to 'white' workers because black people and people of immigrant background from the oppressed nations may have different interests. Materially some people in these communities may benefit from super-profits. However, the more recent immigrants and so-called illeagals tend to be forced into jobs where they are producers of super-proftis rahter than net beneficiaries. Also even those in more well-established immigrant communities tend to have lower average earnings than white people and suffer from higher rates of unemployment.

But most importantly, perhaps, these communities do suffer from racism in a myriad of ways.

Not only that but the racism seems to be getting worse. In Britain white people are coming out with the most ignorant racist garbage that they would never have dreamt of uttering a few years ago. It's genuinely hard to talk to a white person about any subject without them bringing the conversation round to racism. This racism is a reflection of the sharpening of conflict between the oppressed peoples of the world and the oppressor nations in recent years (the ascendancy of the neo-cons, the fall-out from 9/11, the imperialist devastation in Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon and Somalia, along with the threats to Iran and the Sudan and also the developing of efforts by the US to further subordinate China to imperialism through the revaluation of its currency and the imposition of further privatisation and market reform).

Therefore, black people and people of immigrant background from the oppressed nations would appear to have interests in opposing the prevailing imperialist system. They may perceive racism as something of an existential threat which goes beyond the material benefits they may accrue from living in the west. Of course, this is theory and we need a proper Marxist party to actually do mass work and investigate the question but that doesn't exist in the UK at the moment.

[Lark]

I dont know much about the minute men as a movement, from what I've read online they are a patriotic group which opposes welfare spending and immigration, I dont believe those are necessarily racist ideas or politics.

I seriously think that the building of America by slaves has become a very mute point, slavery was a feature of most world economies, including the African nations and tribes from which the individuals and families of slaves were sourced.

I've read stuff from within the reparations debate about how if a monetary value were settled upon to put the topic to rest and all welfare payments from FDR to present deducted it would be a very small amount for each descendent of slavery.

There werent any entitlements in the Roman republic, that's bullshit, it was a war society, more fascist than democratic and it collapsed when it was weakened by excesses and scandals of its rulers, sectarianism in the form of Christianity, power struggles among its national powers.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 09:53 am
I dont know much about the minute men as a movement, from what I've read online they are a patriotic group which opposes welfare spending and immigration, I dont believe those are necessarily racist ideas or politics.

I seriously think that the building of America by slaves has become a very mute point, slavery was a feature of most world economies, including the African nations and tribes from which the individuals and families of slaves were sourced.

I've read stuff from within the reparations debate about how if a monetary value were settled upon to put the topic to rest and all welfare payments from FDR to present deducted it would be a very small amount for each descendent of slavery.

There werent any entitlements in the Roman republic, that's bullshit, it was a war society, more fascist than democratic and it collapsed when it was weakened by excesses and scandals of its rulers, sectarianism in the form of Christianity, power struggles among its national powers.
Being a Patriotic group pretty much makes them racist from the get go. A patriot is someone who thinks they are better than others because of the place they were born.

[Lark]

I dont know about that, Orwell was a patriot.