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Qwerty Dvorak
18th May 2007, 01:01
Well as you may or may not know, the 2007 general elections will be taking place in the Republic on the 24th. It's set to be the tightest race in years, with the Fianna Fail/Progressive Democrats coalition severely losing out in the opinion polls to a Fine Gael/Labour and maybe Green coalition. Fianna Fail are hiding behind their track record of turning Ireland into a very wealthy nation, and claiming that our economic prowess must be maintained. The opposition are attacking the current government in areas such as Health, claiming it to be in a dire state, while Fianna Fail point to the decrease in waiting times they have achieved. Of course this is just one small aspect of the debate, the whole story would take too long to type.

What are your opinions on the situation? I know it's all bourgeois politics, but is there a lesser of two evils? Quite frankly I'll consider it a minor victory as long as the PDs are voted out, which thankfully is looking quite probable (they might even dissolve! Yay!).

Cheung Mo
18th May 2007, 01:26
The Progressive Democrats have their own ideology: Libertarian Thatcherism.

Ismail
18th May 2007, 13:47
It seems that Sinn Féin is a good choice. The Socialist Party of Ireland is affiliated with the Trotskyist Committee for a Workers' International, so egh. Regardless, neither will win, but I'd rather see a FG-L-G coalition, because at least Labour and Green are somewhat to the left while Fianna Fáil and the "Progressive" Democrats are, well, not.

Redmau5
18th May 2007, 14:42
It seems that Sinn Féin is a good choice

Then you understand very little about Sinn Fein. What exactly makes them 'a good choice'?


The Socialist Party of Ireland is affiliated with the Trotskyist Committee for a Workers' International, so egh.

And your point is? I find it amusing that people are so willing to dismiss other leftist parties because of petty sectarianism in favour of embracing bourgeois parties.


Regardless, neither will win

It's not about winning. Even if the Socialist Party were in a good enough position to form a coalition we wouldn't do so. We do not enter into bourgeois politics, but simply use the platform of parliament to raise important working-class issues.


because at least Labour and Green are somewhat to the left

The Greens maybe, but Labour? They're just like their British counterparts.

Sir Aunty Christ
18th May 2007, 15:29
The revolution begins on the 25th because fuck all will change no matter who wins. Increased representation for the Socialist Party and the Greens wouldn't be bad.

If anyone lives in the Dun Laoghaire constituency vote Richard Boyd Barrett (http://http://www.richardboydbarrett.org/). Or pass that on.

Qwerty Dvorak
18th May 2007, 16:28
The Greens are tipped to do quite well in the election, and might even end up holding the balance of power. So that's a good thing I suppose. The Socialist Party's only TD, Joe Higgins, is strongly tipped to hold his seat, they all love him there according to the Times. I haven't heard any odds, but Clare Daly is supposedly doing rather well in Dublin North West.

Had I a vote and any decent candidates to choose from, I would vote Socialist, then Green and probably throw some of my lower preferences to Labour and Fine Gael.

Ismail
18th May 2007, 16:42
Then you understand very little about Sinn Fein. What exactly makes them 'a good choice'?What makes them a 'bad choice'? They aren't as radical as they could be, I'll give you that.


And your point is? I find it amusing that people are so willing to dismiss other leftist parties because of petty sectarianism in favour of embracing bourgeois parties.I'm not "embracing" bourgeois parties, but sure, whatever.


It's not about winning. Even if the Socialist Party were in a good enough position to form a coalition we wouldn't do so. We do not enter into bourgeois politics, but simply use the platform of parliament to raise important working-class issues.Of course it's not about winning. I never said "They won't win so I won't support them", just pointing out a fact.


The Greens maybe, but Labour? They're just like their British counterparts.In that case, screw them.

I'm not great at Irish politics, so forgive me if I appear ignorant.

The Grey Blur
19th May 2007, 00:35
What makes them a 'bad choice'?
Reactionary social politics, want to lower taxes on corporations, and they're nationalists who wish to divide the proleteriat. So yes, they're as bad as the rest of the bourgeois parties.

Joe Higgins and Clare Daly FTW.

redflag32
20th May 2007, 19:44
Originally posted by Sir Aunty [email protected] 18, 2007 02:29 pm
The revolution begins on the 25th because fuck all will change no matter who wins. Increased representation for the Socialist Party and the Greens wouldn't be bad.

If anyone lives in the Dun Laoghaire constituency vote Richard Boyd Barrett (http://http://www.richardboydbarrett.org/). Or pass that on.
People before profit (Richard Boyd Barrett) would get my vote if i was forced at gun point to vote,but i dont vote,i see no parliamentary road to socialism!

bolshevik butcher
20th May 2007, 19:47
Taking part in elections and using parliament as a propaganda tool or a place to pass positive reforms does not mean accepting a parliamentary road to socialism.

redflag32
23rd May 2007, 00:47
Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 20, 2007 06:47 pm
Taking part in elections and using parliament as a propaganda tool or a place to pass positive reforms does not mean accepting a parliamentary road to socialism.
I agree,but i dont see any movement in the elections who id trust enough to use it as a tactic in this way.

Qwerty Dvorak
23rd May 2007, 00:50
Originally posted by redflag32+May 22, 2007 11:47 pm--> (redflag32 @ May 22, 2007 11:47 pm)
bolshevik [email protected] 20, 2007 06:47 pm
Taking part in elections and using parliament as a propaganda tool or a place to pass positive reforms does not mean accepting a parliamentary road to socialism.
I agree,but i dont see any movement in the elections who id trust enough to use it as a tactic in this way. [/b]
Vote out the PDs.

Conghaileach
23rd May 2007, 02:09
Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 19, 2007 12:35 am

What makes them a 'bad choice'?
Reactionary social politics, want to lower taxes on corporations, and they're nationalists who wish to divide the proleteriat. So yes, they're as bad as the rest of the bourgeois parties.
I'm not sure what you mean by "reactionary social politics", and their stance on corporation tax is a joke (but they don't want it lowered in the 26 counties), but as for the nationalists seeking to divide the working class stuff, well that's just ultra-leftist/liberal bourgeois tripe. Imperialism has divided the working class, and it's not the fault of anti-imperialists that a section of the working class is allied to imperialism, monarchy and reaction in general.

Conghaileach
23rd May 2007, 02:12
Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 01:01 am
Well as you may or may not know, the 2007 general elections will be taking place in the Republic on the 24th. It's set to be the tightest race in years, with the Fianna Fail/Progressive Democrats coalition severely losing out in the opinion polls to a Fine Gael/Labour and maybe Green coalition.
There's also a chance of a FF/Labour coalition (Rabbitte's been trying to give himself some breathing room from the pact with FG), and a slim slim chance of FF/SF. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of it.

The Grey Blur
23rd May 2007, 21:13
Originally posted by Conghaileach+May 23, 2007 01:09 am--> (Conghaileach @ May 23, 2007 01:09 am)
Permanent [email protected] 19, 2007 12:35 am

What makes them a 'bad choice'?
Reactionary social politics, want to lower taxes on corporations, and they're nationalists who wish to divide the proleteriat. So yes, they're as bad as the rest of the bourgeois parties.
I'm not sure what you mean by "reactionary social politics", and their stance on corporation tax is a joke (but they don't want it lowered in the 26 counties), but as for the nationalists seeking to divide the working class stuff, well that's just ultra-leftist/liberal bourgeois tripe. Imperialism has divided the working class, and it's not the fault of anti-imperialists that a section of the working class is allied to imperialism, monarchy and reaction in general. [/b]
A lot of Sinn Féin membership, especially in rural areas, is made up of Catholic reactionaries.

Whatever their stance on taxes in the South (I believe it is a lowering for higher earners i.e. the petit and big bourgeois) they are clearly shifting to the right to make themselves more appealing to the ruling class and big neo-liberal parties.

Sinn Féin follow bourgeois Nationalism, they divide the working-class in the North of Ireland which is incompatible with creating a mass Socialist working-class movement. We cannot abandon the Protestant working-class because they hold reactionary views, this is a rejection of broad working-class organisation and the Socialist revolution. I agree it is the result of Imperialist machinations that the working-class is divided in such a manner though. There is no need to be so defensive.

BOZG
24th May 2007, 12:31
I'm not sure what you mean by "reactionary social politics", and their stance on corporation tax is a joke (but they don't want it lowered in the 26 counties), but as for the nationalists seeking to divide the working class stuff, well that's just ultra-leftist/liberal bourgeois tripe. Imperialism has divided the working class, and it's not the fault of anti-imperialists that a section of the working class is allied to imperialism, monarchy and reaction in general.

Like the Greens, they're also willing to sit in a bourgeois cabinet which will attack workers. I'll give them no support whatsoever.

As for People Before Profit, it's pretty much an SWP front with a couple of hanger-ons. They shouldn't be voted for just because they're a left party but on the basis of what role they would play and whether they're a positive force for working class politics.

RedArmyFaction
24th May 2007, 20:06
Sinn Féin typically have Marxist members such Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. So i support them.

Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures
24th May 2007, 20:30
Any result is a bad result

The Grey Blur
24th May 2007, 22:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 07:06 pm
Sinn Féin typically have Marxist members such Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. So i support them.
When in government Sinn Féin attempted to privatise schools and hospitals and support the anti-working-class water charges. They've stopped all talk of the "democratic socialist united Ireland" and are happy to sit in government in the South with some of the most corrupt and neoliberal politicans that exist.

I'll assume you just didn't realise this and if you did you would not make such a misleading statement, listen and support Socialists in Ireland, not petit-bourgeois Nationalists.

Qwerty Dvorak
24th May 2007, 22:46
There's also a chance of a FF/Labour coalition (Rabbitte's been trying to give himself some breathing room from the pact with FG), and a slim slim chance of FF/SF. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of it.
I don't believe that there is a chance of either of those two things happening. I guess we don't have all that long to wait to find out though.

Conghaileach
24th May 2007, 22:53
Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 23, 2007 09:13 pm
Whatever their stance on taxes in the South (I believe it is a lowering for higher earners i.e. the petit and big bourgeois) they are clearly shifting to the right to make themselves more appealing to the ruling class and big neo-liberal parties.
They only favour tax decreases in the Six Counties. In the twenty six counties they favoured tax increases until recently, but dropped their economic policies like a ton of bricks when they realised that it was standing in the way of their chances of entering coalition.



Sinn Féin follow bourgeois Nationalism, they divide the working-class in the North of Ireland which is incompatible with creating a mass Socialist working-class movement.
Again, how do they divide the working class? And why does their "bourgeois" nationalism (by which I presume you mean that it lacks a class analysis) divide the working class? This is an important question to ask.

Obviously what it comes down to is change. A united, capitalist Ireland is not going to change much for the working class of the country, and so a lot of people don't want it. Only through socialism can real fundamental change come, of course. The problem though is that the six county state is not a normal state. At its very heart is sectarianism and discrimination.

The state was created to foster a class union of Orange protestant unionists, with catholics disenfranchised at every turn. Protestant workers weren't exactly living in a utopia, but as long as they had one up over their catholic counterparts in terms of jobs, housing, etc. they could be kept in line. All that was needed was to remind them of the "threat from below".

So the Civil Rights Movement of the 60s came along and demanded equality for catholics. (Were they responsible for dividing the working class?) This was of course met by brutal violence from the state and by pogroms from loyalists (pretty much all of whom were working class). And today isn't necessarily much better. The CAJ report published last year showed that catholic were still being discriminated against on large scale, despite all the talk of "equality" and "change". And it's not sectarian to acknowledge that catholics are discriminated against, just as it's not racist to acknowledge that black people are discriminated against in the US.

And so there is a large section of the population of the six counties who want a united Ireland. (Are these people responsible for dividing the working class?) Many of them lack a class analysis but their experience of the nature of the six county state gives them enough reason to want change.

And there's even the "bourgeois" nationalist argument that protestants would have a more democratic representation in a united Ireland than in the United Kingdom (17% of the population vs. 1.6%) - I suppose so may ask if the 26 county state traditionally treated protestants as poorly as the 6 county state treated catholics, and the answer of course is no, even though the 26 counties has a far smaller protestant population that the 6 counties does catholic.

So I guess a united, capitalist Ireland would have one benefit in that systematic religious discrimination would end.




We cannot abandon the Protestant working-class because they hold reactionary views, this is a rejection of broad working-class organisation and the Socialist revolution.
And yet you completely wrote Sinn Féin off above for having reactionary catholic members.

Here is a fundamental problem that all socialists must come to terms with. There will always be a section of the working class that will oppose progressive change. In an Irish context, why is it so important to get the protestant working class on board? There are 5 million people in Ireland who aren't unionist, why not look to that part of the population to build a working class movement?

It has to be said that I don't agree with the argument above necessarily, but it's a question that socialists need to ask themselves. If you want to build a mass socialist working-class movement then you have to address the national question, and that will lead to complications from the start.

I suppose you could argue that nationalism and unionism are as bad as one another, two sides of the same coin. But this is the type of argument you'd get from a British civil servant, a middle class liberal, or an ultra-leftist. Unionism is reactionary. It has no progressive traits at all. Nationalism, on the other hand, has traditionally had democratic and even internationalist characteristics. This is not to say that there haven't been reactionary or sectarian nationalists, but the tradition of the United Irishmen and the Young Irelanders, of Connolly and Pearse, shines far brighter than that of Daniel O'Connell or Gerry McGeough.

Here is another problem that I believe affects many of the liberal left, that if you try to build class unity on purely bread-and-butter, gas-and-water or ringroad politics, then you're simply being facetious. If, and it's a big if, you were able to build some kind of mass movement around say water charges (and despite the rhetoric a mass movement does not exist) what would happen if the 'socialists' turned around and then said, "Oh, by the way, we're against imperialism and monarchy and sectarianism and partition"? The likes of the SP and the SWP, and their various fronts, are incapable of doing this and I personally believe that they're showing contempt for the working class when they don't nail their colours to the mast honestly.

Now I personally believe that only a socialist movement offers any hope for the people of Ireland, but it must be anti-imperialist too (and consistently so). Sectarian discrimination exists in the six county state, but the SP and SWP won't address it for whatever reason (maybe because it's not conducive to workers' unity) but of course ignoring problems has always been a great way of resolving them! :rolleyes:

On top of this they take the liberal bourgeois position of never daring to criticise one 'side' without criticising the 'other', thus implicitly accepting the imperialist two-tribes notion that the six county question is a completely internal one and that imperialism is a non-issue. Neither party as far as I'm concerned is up to the task of building a socialist movement in this country.



I agree it is the result of Imperialist machinations that the working-class is divided in such a manner though. There is no need to be so defensive.
I got defensive because I'm tried of the infantile, not to mention sectarian, argument that uppity táigs are responsible for the division of the working class. You never mentioned imperialism.

redflag32
24th May 2007, 23:24
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 07:06 pm
Sinn Féin typically have Marxist members such Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. So i support them.
Do you honestly think that the British establishment would allow Marxists onto the policing boards and into government?

Qwerty Dvorak
25th May 2007, 15:59
Election results beginning to come out now. So far 5 FF, 1 FG elected. Higgins in a tight competition for his place in DW, despite popular support.

Sir Aunty Christ
25th May 2007, 16:47
According to reports B-B-B-Bertie&#39;s got back in. Oh joy&#33; <_<

PRC-UTE
25th May 2007, 21:08
Originally posted by redflag32+May 24, 2007 10:24 pm--> (redflag32 @ May 24, 2007 10:24 pm)
[email protected] 24, 2007 07:06 pm
Sinn Féin typically have Marxist members such Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. So i support them.
Do you honestly think that the British establishment would allow Marxists onto the policing boards and into government? [/b]
I have personally known marxists in SF, but I don&#39;t think the leadership were. Ivor Bell was known for being pretty lefty.

Martin McGuinness is from a fairly conservative background and was known for being hostile to the irps.

The Bearded One was more of a social democrat type until recently.

PRC-UTE
25th May 2007, 21:10
Originally posted by Sir Aunty [email protected] 25, 2007 03:47 pm
According to reports B-B-B-Bertie&#39;s got back in. Oh joy&#33; <_<
I thought the last republican socialist ( :lol: ) in Irish politics wasn&#39;t expected to do that well...

PRC-UTE
25th May 2007, 21:13
:)

Election 2007: McDowell to leave politics
watch Friday, 25 May 2007 20:56

The Progressive Democrat leader, Michael McDowell, who has lost his seat, has said he will resign from politics.

Mr McDowell conceeded he could not close the gap with the Green Party Chairman, John Gormley, and said his career as a public representative was now over.

There was a re-run of the Rumble in Ranelagh, in which Mr Gormley had clashed with Mr McDowell on the streets of south Dublin during the campaign, as the two battled for re-election to the Dáil.

The Green Party chairman ultimately won the tussle, getting elected in Dublin South-East alongside Chris Andrews (FF), Lucinda Creighton (FG), and Ruairi Quinn (Labour)

.http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0525/election6.html

redflag32
25th May 2007, 21:30
Originally posted by PRC&#045;UTE+May 25, 2007 08:08 pm--> (PRC-UTE @ May 25, 2007 08:08 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 10:24 pm

[email protected] 24, 2007 07:06 pm
Sinn Féin typically have Marxist members such Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. So i support them.
Do you honestly think that the British establishment would allow Marxists onto the policing boards and into government?
I have personally known marxists in SF, but I don&#39;t think the leadership were. Ivor Bell was known for being pretty lefty.

Martin McGuinness is from a fairly conservative background and was known for being hostile to the irps.

The Bearded One was more of a social democrat type until recently. [/b]
I ment collectively as a party,they wouldnt allow a Marxist movement into government. The Eirigi movement shows there were individual Marxists in the party though&#33;

PRC-UTE
25th May 2007, 22:03
aye I was agreeing with you and responding to RedArmyFaction ;)

bolshevik butcher
25th May 2007, 22:07
Hard luck to all the Irish comrades who did work for their respective campaigns, looks like a pretty misrable result for working class representation. After the Scottish elections with the Nats getting elected it doesn&#39;t look like things are going our way on that front.

redflag32
25th May 2007, 22:31
Originally posted by PRC&#045;[email protected] 25, 2007 09:03 pm
aye I was agreeing with you and responding to RedArmyFaction ;)
Ah i know comrade,i just noticed i may have misrepresented my own opinion that INDIVIDUAL members may be Marxist,just wanted to correct that&#33; :)

Cheung Mo
25th May 2007, 23:23
Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 25, 2007 09:07 pm
Hard luck to all the Irish comrades who did work for their respective campaigns, looks like a pretty misrable result for working class representation. After the Scottish elections with the Nats getting elected it doesn&#39;t look like things are going our way on that front.
There is far more racism in Blairism than their is in anything that has been advocated by the SNP.

And while the SNP is not a party I can support, it certainly won&#39;t do worse for the people of Scotland than Lieblair and Thatcher&#39;s gang have done.

The only thing not worthless about Labour is Militant.

bolshevik butcher
25th May 2007, 23:37
What you&#39;ve written shows a clear lack of understanding of the class nature of british politics or waht I was trying to say but this is a thread about the Irish election and I don&#39;t wish to derail it so please take it elswhere.

Will Irish comrades post any responses their organisations put out to the results as they come? I&#39;d quite like to read them.

Redmau5
26th May 2007, 03:00
Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 25, 2007 10:37 pm
Will Irish comrades post any responses their organisations put out to the results as they come? I&#39;d quite like to read them.
Well I&#39;m fucking pissed off. We thought we had a good chance of gaining an extra seat, but we ended up losing are seat in Dublin West. So now the Socialist Party has no representation in the Dail. I hate everything at the moment.

Sir Aunty Christ
26th May 2007, 11:55
The exiting stage right of "Send Them Back" McDowell can&#39;t be a bad thing.

Coggeh
26th May 2007, 13:44
Looked set for 2seats and both Joe and Clare lost :( ... a sad day at the races for us

RedArmyFaction
26th May 2007, 15:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 10:24 pm
Do you honestly think that the British establishment would allow Marxists onto the policing boards and into government?
Well what a silly thing to say. Considering both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness were both actively part of terrorist activities. So what the British government have done is strike a deal with terrorists and their organisations to secure peace. So why shouldn&#39;t they allow Marxist sympathizers in government ? Surely terrorists are far worse to the British than Marxists.

Redmau5
26th May 2007, 18:52
Well what a silly thing to say. Considering both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness were both actively part of terrorist activities. So what the British government have done is strike a deal with terrorists and their organisations to secure peace. So why shouldn&#39;t they allow Marxist sympathizers in government ? Surely terrorists are far worse to the British than Marxists.

Sinn Fein is not a Marxist party. If they do have any Marxist members, Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams certainly aren&#39;t two of them.

The Grey Blur
26th May 2007, 19:46
Originally posted by redflag32+May 25, 2007 09:31 pm--> (redflag32 @ May 25, 2007 09:31 pm)
PRC&#045;[email protected] 25, 2007 09:03 pm
aye I was agreeing with you and responding to RedArmyFaction ;)
Ah i know comrade,i just noticed i may have misrepresented my own opinion that INDIVIDUAL members may be Marxist,just wanted to correct that&#33; :) [/b]
Individual members of the PUP also consider themselves Marxist.

PRC-UTE
26th May 2007, 21:58
Originally posted by Permanent Revolution+May 26, 2007 06:46 pm--> (Permanent Revolution @ May 26, 2007 06:46 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 09:31 pm

PRC&#045;[email protected] 25, 2007 09:03 pm
aye I was agreeing with you and responding to RedArmyFaction ;)
Ah i know comrade,i just noticed i may have misrepresented my own opinion that INDIVIDUAL members may be Marxist,just wanted to correct that&#33; :)
Individual members of the PUP also consider themselves Marxist. [/b]
Are you comparing SF to the PUP? Though I&#39;m not exactly a fan of SF, I wouldn&#39;t equate them to a reactionary monarchist party.

Like I said, I have known individual members of SF who were quite acive in working class struggles including unions and were well read Marxists.

Brady
26th May 2007, 22:59
Originally posted by PRC&#045;UTE+May 26, 2007 08:58 pm--> (PRC-UTE @ May 26, 2007 08:58 pm)
Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 26, 2007 06:46 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 09:31 pm

PRC&#045;[email protected] 25, 2007 09:03 pm
aye I was agreeing with you and responding to RedArmyFaction ;)
Ah i know comrade,i just noticed i may have misrepresented my own opinion that INDIVIDUAL members may be Marxist,just wanted to correct that&#33; :)
Individual members of the PUP also consider themselves Marxist.
Are you comparing SF to the PUP? Though I&#39;m not exactly a fan of SF, I wouldn&#39;t equate them to a reactionary monarchist party.

Like I said, I have known individual members of SF who were quite acive in working class struggles including unions and were well read Marxists. [/b]
Didnt Sinn Fein split from the Official Sinn Fein/OIRA movement because of the Officials&#39; Marxist interpretation of the North, whilst they were more interested in the more traditional anti-British Republican values? Do SF still class themselves as a socialist party?

quirk
27th May 2007, 00:33
They split from the officials over the issue of abstentionism rather than the officials interpretation of the situation in the north. I think they do still class themselves as a socialist party although lately they have stopped refering to socialism as they are trying to attract those in the centre to their party.

Qwerty Dvorak
27th May 2007, 00:41
Sinn Fein in no way represent Socialism, and got fucked over this election anyway.

Back to more important issues, any predictions for the make-up of gov? Do you think Fianna Fail and independent Fianna Fail will be enough to get Bertie a majority? Or will he go in with Greens or Labour? Can anyone actually see Harney getting back into gov?

redflag32
27th May 2007, 14:05
Originally posted by RedArmyFaction+May 26, 2007 02:51 pm--> (RedArmyFaction @ May 26, 2007 02:51 pm)
[email protected] 24, 2007 10:24 pm
Do you honestly think that the British establishment would allow Marxists onto the policing boards and into government?
Well what a silly thing to say. Considering both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness were both actively part of terrorist activities. So what the British government have done is strike a deal with terrorists and their organisations to secure peace. So why shouldn&#39;t they allow Marxist sympathizers in government ? Surely terrorists are far worse to the British than Marxists. [/b]
The state has always been more afraid of Marxists than nationalist "terrorist" movements. Just look at how the 26 county free state supported the provos so that the Marxist IRSP would be crushed,look at how they framed and torutured its members and blatantly put all its efforts into smashing the Marxist IRSP while turning a blind eye and even giving the provo&#39;s guns.

What i said wasnt silly,its fact in Ireland. if you have studied the irish peace process you would see the obvious tactic by the free state and the British to give PSF more "power" the more liberal and anti-socialist they became. This was evident even during this election when SF toned down its social policies in an attempt to get support from FF and possibly gain access to government. The British and irish state know this is how to suck the Marxists out of SF and it is working.

You said that what the British have done is strike a deal with terrorists for peace,i would say it is Gerry and Martin who have done a deal with the British terrorists for peace.This is a strike against the working class in Ireland who have suffered 800 years of terrorism from the British state and they wil never be forgiven for their turn against working class people and politics.

redflag32
27th May 2007, 14:07
Originally posted by Permanent Revolution+May 26, 2007 06:46 pm--> (Permanent Revolution @ May 26, 2007 06:46 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 09:31 pm

PRC&#045;[email protected] 25, 2007 09:03 pm
aye I was agreeing with you and responding to RedArmyFaction ;)
Ah i know comrade,i just noticed i may have misrepresented my own opinion that INDIVIDUAL members may be Marxist,just wanted to correct that&#33; :)
Individual members of the PUP also consider themselves Marxist. [/b]
Whats your point? How can anyone consider themselves Marxist and also be pro-monarchist?

redflag32
27th May 2007, 14:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 11:41 pm
Sinn Fein in no way represent Socialism, and got fucked over this election anyway.

Back to more important issues, any predictions for the make-up of gov? Do you think Fianna Fail and independent Fianna Fail will be enough to get Bertie a majority? Or will he go in with Greens or Labour? Can anyone actually see Harney getting back into gov?
I fear its going to be FF/PD/Independents this time. Its looking that way anyway.Maybe if Labour didnt link itself to FG it may be in a position now to do a deal but FF know they dont need them and wont bother asking them because of their ass kissing to FG. Tony gregory is one independent they are considering,id like to see what he would od in government.

Coggeh
27th May 2007, 15:09
Only one socialist left in the dail now ... :lol:

RedArmyFaction
27th May 2007, 19:55
Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 05:52 pm
Sinn Fein is not a Marxist party. If they do have any Marxist members, Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams certainly aren&#39;t two of them.
Oh well i guess all those books i read about the PIRA are all wrong then (sarcasm). If you want, i&#39;ll reference the books for you and you can check them out.

The Grey Blur
27th May 2007, 20:11
Aren&#39;t Marxists judged by their actions? I&#39;d guess going into bourgeois governments, joining the hired arms of the ruling class and enacting anti-working-class policies are pretty definitive proof that Sinn Féin and specifically it&#39;s leading members like Adams and McGuinness aren&#39;t Marxists.

Makaveli lives here, I believe personal experience has a bit more weight than a book you read.

redflag32
27th May 2007, 20:13
Originally posted by RedArmyFaction+May 27, 2007 06:55 pm--> (RedArmyFaction @ May 27, 2007 06:55 pm)
[email protected] 26, 2007 05:52 pm
Sinn Fein is not a Marxist party. If they do have any Marxist members, Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams certainly aren&#39;t two of them.
Oh well i guess all those books i read about the PIRA are all wrong then (sarcasm). If you want, i&#39;ll reference the books for you and you can check them out. [/b]
Yes they are wrong,just like all the history books in Ireland are wrong,you never get the fullpicture just by relying on books. PSF used socialism as a tool gain support in working class areas nothing more,now they want the middle class vote so you dont see as many che flags as you used to&#33;

Redmau5
27th May 2007, 20:15
Originally posted by RedArmyFaction+May 27, 2007 06:55 pm--> (RedArmyFaction @ May 27, 2007 06:55 pm)
[email protected] 26, 2007 05:52 pm
Sinn Fein is not a Marxist party. If they do have any Marxist members, Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams certainly aren&#39;t two of them.
Oh well i guess all those books i read about the PIRA are all wrong then (sarcasm). If you want, i&#39;ll reference the books for you and you can check them out. [/b]
Oh well then, I guess that because you&#39;ve read books which have stated that certain elements of the Provisional IRA were socialist, Sinn Fein must be a Marxist party. Ignore the fact that I have lived in Belfast for 19 years, was raised in a family who are very pro-PIRA/Sinn Fein, and know several Sinn Fein members who own property abroad as well as several shops and cafes along my road. Why would a Marxist party enter government here to administer the rule of a foreign imperialist power?

Forgive me, but if you genuinely believe Sinn Fein are Marxist then you have been grossly misinformed, or you&#39;re just an idiot.

BOZG
27th May 2007, 22:36
Wank. All I can say.

sexyguy
27th May 2007, 23:12
We ask, is this all the completion of the Irish national liberation struggle and the unavoidable preparation for the inevitable socialist revolution ?

redflag32
28th May 2007, 00:11
Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 10:12 pm
We ask, is this all the completion of the Irish national liberation struggle and the unavoidable preparation for the inevitable socialist revolution ?
Say wha?

Coggeh
28th May 2007, 00:18
Sinn fein have long since been a Marx influence , how can you claim their leftism if their willing to go into government with right-wing big business parties ? Theirs few real socialists out there anymore .

Qwerty Dvorak
28th May 2007, 00:19
Bertie is negotiating with the PDs and several "like-minded" independents, namely Healy-Ray and Flynn (probably Tony Gregory too). So looks like P&#092;Ds in again :(

However, if and when the PDs do get in, FF will have Harney on whip and chain. PDs will have no real power, as may FF want PDs but PDs need FF. This is going to hurt PDs&#39; privatization and co-location policies big time.

In the meantime, Bertie will probably keep the nice juicy carrot of power dangling in front of the Greens, in case the PDs step out of line.

sexyguy
28th May 2007, 00:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 10:12 pm
We ask, is this all the completion of the Irish national liberation struggle and the unavoidable preparation for the inevitable socialist revolution ?

Say whawha

redflag32
28th May 2007, 10:19
Originally posted by sexyguy+May 27, 2007 11:46 pm--> (sexyguy @ May 27, 2007 11:46 pm)
[email protected] 27, 2007 10:12 pm
We ask, is this all the completion of the Irish national liberation struggle and the unavoidable preparation for the inevitable socialist revolution ?

Say whawha [/b]
How could it possibly be the end of the national liberation struggle?

sexyguy
28th May 2007, 14:06
Well that&#39;s what you seem to be saying on your own site.


With the long war coming to ahead in Ireland and the apparent lack of support for armed struggle among the majority of normal working people, we now have a chance sit down, discuss and re-asses the republican struggle in it’s entirety, the past problems we’ve had and the future of radical republican politics.

redflag32
28th May 2007, 14:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 01:06 pm
Well that&#39;s what you seem to be saying on your own site.


With the long war coming to ahead in Ireland and the apparent lack of support for armed struggle among the majority of normal working people, we now have a chance sit down, discuss and re-asses the republican struggle in it’s entirety, the past problems we’ve had and the future of radical republican politics.
Thats the most abstract take on what that quote means i have ever heard. It is talking about the peoples attitude to the ARMED struggle not the political. The national independence struggle is not an armed struggle solely. It is political,armed resistence is a right and a tactic,it is not possible now so we push on with the politics.

Sir Aunty Christ
28th May 2007, 15:35
Fianna Fail on Sinn Fein&#39;s performance (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6697749.stm)


Foreign Affairs Minister Dermot Ahern said he was not surprised at Sinn Fein&#39;s poor showing.

"I was always confident... when we got Sinn Fein into a situation where we were talking about bread and butter issues, talking about economic issues," he said.

"People saw that a party that has a Marxist, a socialist philosophy is not really in tune, particularly with the younger population who are all working, have cars, go on holidays and are trying to buy a house."

Haaahaaahaaa&#33;

Stupid bastard.

BOZG
29th May 2007, 12:57
Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 11:19 pm
Bertie is negotiating with the PDs and several "like-minded" independents, namely Healy-Ray and Flynn (probably Tony Gregory too). So looks like P&#092;Ds in again :(

However, if and when the PDs do get in, FF will have Harney on whip and chain. PDs will have no real power, as may FF want PDs but PDs need FF. This is going to hurt PDs&#39; privatization and co-location policies big time.

In the meantime, Bertie will probably keep the nice juicy carrot of power dangling in front of the Greens, in case the PDs step out of line.
Smokescreen. Such a coalition would be far too unstable. All it takes is for one or two independents to leave and it would be a minority government. FF have been in that possible situation in the past and aren&#39;t going to walk into again by choice. A Green-FF coalition would also be pretty unstable, they&#39;re much too flaky.

What FF really want is a FF-Labour coalition which I hope they get. Completely expose the swine.