Israli Kibbutzim, in trouble?

[whoknows]

Who knows what is goning on with the Kibbutzim? I just heard a report, a very disgustingly worded and edited report, pertending to be even handed from the radio program MarketPlace Money, which claimed that over 50% of the Kiddutzim have privetized--to some extent. The propagada of the report was that people wont work under socialism because they can't intellectualy connect their earnings with their labor, and so think the paycheck is a welfair gift. I don't see this in my work life experance.
NONE the lest there must be a fact behind this story. The privetizeation of services seems to be happening.
Does anyone know to what extent, and what the REAL pressures that are driving this trend are?

[Revolution Until Victory]

we had a long discussion about the Kibutz in the History forum.
I think you should be careful in supporting Aparthaied settler-colonies built on stolen and robbed lands, simply coz they are "socialist"
Socialism has nothing to do with racist colonialism and opression.

[Revolution Until Victory]

btw, here is a list of some of the "socialist" Kibutz established on stolen Palestinain lands:
(i posted those in the History thread)

Kibbutz Yas'ur on the land of al-Birwa
Kibbutz Gesher ha-Ziv on the lands of al-Zeeb
Kibbutz Kabri on the land of al-Kabri
Kibbutz Gazit on the lands of al-Tira
Kibbutz ha-Zore'a on the lands of Qira
Kibbutz Nachsholim on the lands of al-Tantura
Kibbutz Barqay on the lands of Wadi 'Ara
kibbutz Neve-Yam on the lands of al-Sarafand
Kibbutz Tzova on the lands of Suba
Kibbutz Megiddo on the lands of al-Lajjun
Kibbutz Sha'alvirn on the lands of Salbit
Kibbutz Mishmar David on the lands of Khulda
Kibbutz Palmachim on the lands of al-Nabi Rubin
Kibbutz Biriyya on the lands of Biriyya
Kibbutz 'Amir on the lands of al-Dawwara
Kibbutz of 'En Gev on the lands of al-Nuqayb
Kibbutz ha-Ma'pil on the lands of Qaqun
Kibbutz ha-'Ogen on the lands of Wadi Qabbani

[whoknows]

I'm not a Zionist, and believe that the founding of Israel was a mistake. And without legal standing. Meaning that just because a distant ancesors sqwated somewhere, you don't now have property rights there. And as for the other claim that it is the promesed land, well just let me see where god signed the deed.
Zionism is a reaction to Christian bigotry, and believes that the people amonge whom it's founders lived could never change. Well they have quite a bit since the 19th century. There's no reason for Israel to exist now but as a religous sactuary, and religion is a fake.
I think that anyone should be able to go anywhere without a passport and get a job it they know enought of the local tounge to understand their duties.
But the kibut are a socialist experment that has been going on for a hundred years or so, and an exsample of how comunities can be orgainized. Could have done it in Utah but it was done in Palistine, that can't be changed.
but i still want to know what's going wrong with them.

[whoknows]

great reply! many thanks. that's the kind of facual reponse that I don't see enought of.
but I'm still questioning the conditions effecting the ecomonic machine not the morality of the machines location.

[Janus]

The kibbutz movement has definitely declined since the 1960's. Kibbutzim have moved away from socialist principles and decollectived and privatized to the extent that many of them are now capitalistic in nature. As for the future of the kibbutzim, it seems pretty shaky though if they continue to drop their ideological principles and gain gov. subsidies, they can probably survive and even grow.

[izzy israeli]

am not aware of a purer socialist form than the kibutz way of socialist democratic enviorment. :rolleyes:

[izzy israeli]

As the arabs mooved in and occupied palestine . as soon as the romans kiked us out of israel so did we in the 1900 we came back home and purchased the land for eastern europ jewes that started the kibutz moovment. i 1948 we declared our independence with a United Nation vote . the arabs didnt like the fact and decided to go to war. 1.1 Bilion muslems against 600,000 jewes mostly accountants book keepers and pencil pushers. resolt was a major victory for us and a sorry outcome for the muslim palestinians.the winner got the spoiles. If it was the opposit ther would have been a second holocoust and every jewish woman of ripe age would have been raped.The existance of a democratic isrtael inbeded in a world of non democratic regims causes this regims to brain wash ther constituence to hate zionists. becuse totalitarian regims aro good for nothing . no science no education and no comerse.we in our 60 years of existance and with all the energy we spnt on defending ourselves . still took a piece of dedsrt and created a nomber 26 industrial nation in the world and highest yelding agriculture in the world. the whole world is benefiting from our inventions ,including the arab nations around us. as long as the arab world is controlled by totalitarian leaders israel will never cease to exist. Check out ghandy and see why the muslims cant choose this way of settling the diferences. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Dr Mindbender]

If the romans had already kicked you out how could the muslims 'occupy' you? The Roman empire precedes the rise of Islam, dinglebrain.

Enjoy what little time you have outside of the OI forum. ;)

[Revolution Until Victory]

good, another Zionist imperialist lying and palying with facts. Are you also interested in copy and paste skills? you would be a great partner with graffic.


As the arabs mooved in and occupied palestine . as soon as the romans kiked us out of israel so did we in the 1900 we came back home

I can equally say the Arabs have the "right to go back" to Spain, after getting kicked out, not 2000 years ago, but a mere 500. You can't claim you have a right to a land just coz you people were there some 2000 yeras ago.


purchased the land for eastern europ jewes that started the kibutz moovment

lol, you purchased what?? you purchased shit.

The Zionist colonizers were only able to buy 5.8% of the entire area of Palestine.


i 1948 we declared our independence with a United Nation vote

true, you have established your settler-colony in 1948 with a UN vote.


the arabs didnt like the fact and decided to go to war

Ture, the Arabs didn't like the fact they were colonized and decided to fight.


1.1 Bilion muslems against 600,000 jewes mostly accountants book keepers and pencil pushers

:blink:


resolt was a major victory for us and a sorry outcome for the muslim palestinians

Palestinians are not just Muslims. They are Chrisitans and Jews also. Major cities were defended by Palestinian Christain fighters during 1948.


If it was the opposit ther would have been a second holocoust and every jewish woman of ripe age would have been raped.

the Arabs and the Jews were living peacefully all along until Zionist colonialism. What happned was a holocaust against the Palestinian arabs in wich many women were raped.


The existance of a democratic isrtael inbeded in a world of non democratic regims causes this regims to brain wash ther constituence to hate zionists.

1. The Zionist settelr-colony isn't democratic

2. The arab regimes do not brainwash the masses to hate Israel. If anything, they brainwash them to normalize relations with it, compromise with colonialism, and accept "peace".

3. A mere switch on of your tv or a visit to a refugee camp in one of the Arab states would tell you all you need to know about Zionisim.


becuse totalitarian regims aro good for nothing . no science no education and no comerse.

You are right. Totalitrian regimes are good for nothing. Almost all of those reactionary dictatorships are US-Zionist collaboraters. They are there for the benifet of the Zionist settler-colony and thier reactionary imperilaist supporters.


as long as the arab world is controlled by totalitarian leaders israel will never cease to exist

100% right. And that's why the Zionists ensure that those arab reactionary regimes never cease to exist.

[izzy israeli]

You can blame zionizm for everything. but wher will you be with it. regardless how you see it . we are here and here to stay. accept us , or deny us. your choice will determin what future your people will have.

[Revolution Until Victory]

we are here and here to stay. accept us , or deny us. your choice will determin what future your people will have.

Haahaaaa that was funny.

Never will me or my people accept you. Never.

No, you are NOT here to stay. That was what the French colonizers said in Algeria before getting kicked out.

Colonialism is never here to stay.

[Faux Real]

Kibbutzim was never 'democratically socialist' in it's nature, it was racist and used Palestinian Arabs as slave labourers without letting them join as members, as I've said in another thread, along with all the stuff RUV posted.

Think of it as socialism for the rich.

[izzy israeli]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 07:43 pm
Kibbutzim was never 'democratically socialist' in it's nature, it was racist and used Palestinian Arabs as slave labourers without letting them join as members, as I've said in another thread, along with all the stuff RUV posted.

Think of it as socialism for the rich.
kibutz is build on pure socializm we try as much as possible not to have highered labour in the system . ocasionally we need help . and yes we hire anybody for a fair pay. nobody is a slave in israel. but i know for a fact it isnt the same elswere . some people are raised with poison and will say some lies to back up their poison theorys. kibutzim were supported by mother russia and they were some of the biggest promoters at the un to creat israel. and we arnt colonialists we did not have a n other base country wich we controled palestine we came from the arab countrys wich rejected us and the gas chembers of europ and settled in israel.we were week and vornable yet we stayd . What i am trying to get to is , its our generations responsibility to coexist with each other . in order to stop innocent blood shed. and we do realize there are 2 nations in the region that sufferd a catastrofic event. we both need to get along. there isnt an other option.if we dont get along the region will have another catastrofic event .chances are both nations will decemate with the atomic capabilities in the region. i ask you do you want to make the whole arab world exited to get rid of 2 problems at once. dont even think for a moment if you get rid of us you will be happy. the countrys surrounding you know how much they screwed with you and what debt they have for you. siria egipt and jordan will not be as tolarating as the israelies they will not let you accomplish you goals. they will keep you opressed as they didd befor 67. so comon think of coexistance and have a better future for your children,

[manic expression]

Originally posted by izzy [email protected] 28, 2007 07:06 pm
You can blame zionizm for everything. but wher will you be with it. regardless how you see it . we are here and here to stay. accept us , or deny us. your choice will determin what future your people will have.
A good example of Zionism's arrogant insanity. They stole your land, they waged war upon an entire people, but they just don't care! Disgusting.

Izzy, you may be there, but your land-stealing ways are coming to an end. You may continue to murder innocent men, women and children for no other end than an ethnically pure state; you may continue to occupy land stolen from others; you may continue to act in your bigoted and reactionary manner. However, this will not last. Check the math: Palestinians outnumber you, they will soon outnumber you in your "home state", your direction is unsustainable. When you become yet another South Africa, when the racist policies of Israel are finally broken, when Israel is pushed forever into the history books, THAT is the future "their people" will have.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by Revolution Until [email protected] 16, 2007 01:47 am
we had a long discussion about the Kibutz in the History forum.
I think you should be careful in supporting Aparthaied settler-colonies built on stolen and robbed lands, simply coz they are "socialist"
Socialism has nothing to do with racist colonialism and opression.
Well said.

[izzy israeli]

Originally posted by manic expression+September 28, 2007 08:37 pm--> (manic expression @ September 28, 2007 08:37 pm)
izzy [email protected] 28, 2007 07:06 pm
You can blame zionizm for everything. but wher will you be with it. regardless how you see it . we are here and here to stay. accept us , or deny us. your choice will determin what future your people will have.
A good example of Zionism's arrogant insanity. They stole your land, they waged war upon an entire people, but they just don't care! Disgusting.

Izzy, you may be there, but your land-stealing ways are coming to an end. You may continue to murder innocent men, women and children for no other end than an ethnically pure state; you may continue to occupy land stolen from others; you may continue to act in your bigoted and reactionary manner. However, this will not last. Check the math: Palestinians outnumber you, they will soon outnumber you in your "home state", your direction is unsustainable. When you become yet another South Africa, when the racist policies of Israel are finally broken, when Israel is pushed forever into the history books, THAT is the future "their people" will have. [/b]
Check you history books . in 1948 who waged war with 7 nations against the israelies.who refused a peace treaty with us . we send golda meir to every arab leader with a streched arm for piece. but thepastcant be fixed only the future counts. and in a way you are right we have 1.1 million arabs in israel. you dont know what exactly will happen in 80 years . i can tell you we can save thusands of lives beetween now and then . and i am not shure the israeli arab , wich have prospered and enjoyed a better democracy than any of his cusins in the region will be so happy to join the people wich let , the PLO robb the people out of their aid mony so they can build mantions and drive mercedes, while the people are starving. or the Hamas that throw ther brothrs of the roof tops of Gaza. and now control the streets and eliminate any oposition.what seems too cleare may never be so. and do you want to wait in poverty and misury for 80 more years.I wouldnt and if it doesnt matter and you know you will gain the power in the middle east, than why resist why not have a simbiotic relationship with israel save your baybies for the elections.

[Revolution Until Victory]

kibutz is build on pure socializm

What socialism are you talking about??? They are Aparthied, racist kibbutz, AND are built on stolen lands colonized from the natives. What kind of fucking "socialism" is that?? Got to be extremely different form the one I know. Socialism is as far as it gets from racism, imperilaism, and colonialism. socialism is anti-racism and anti-imperilaism. It's an oxymoron to claim the kibutz are socialist. That's like saying the socialist colonizer. Doesn't make sense.


and we arnt colonialists we did not have a n other base country wich we controled palestine we came from the arab countrys wich rejected us and the gas chembers of europ and settled in israel.

Blatnat Zionist stupidity at its finest. You don't have to come from a mother country to be a colonizer. Colonialism doesn't have a text book defention, yet all colonial experiences share specific features. The most major is replacing the native population with a foriegn one, establishing a settler-colony on thier colonized lands, and dominate the natives econsomically and politically. That's exaclty what's happning and have happned in the Zionist settler-colony. The argument that "we didn't have a mother country" is queit pathetic. But Britian could be considred the mother country of Israel, since it was the one that sponsered it's existance. The creation of Isreal was on the behlaf of the Western imperilast powers led by the UK, to devide the arab world and further their imperialist goals. Having a mother country or not is irrelivant. Remind me, who was the "mother country" of the European settelr-colony in South Africa 1961 and beyong???


we were week and vornable yet we stayd

There goes the typical fraud tears. "we were little poor innocent civlians sorounded by the head-chopping muslims!!!"


its our generations responsibility to coexist with each other . in order to stop innocent blood shed.

There could be no coexistance with colonizers. I have never heard of a "coexistance" between a native and a colonizer, opresser and opressed, dominator and dominated, master and slave. Never happned and will never happen. The Palestinians refuse this. Enough of this crap. We will not allow you to keep your racist settler-colony while we are confined to our South Africa-style bantustans on less than 15% of our original homeland. It will be a revolution until victory: until the total end of Zionist colonialism.


and i am not shure the israeli arab , wich have prospered and enjoyed a better democracy than any of his cusins in the region will be so happy to join the people wich let , the PLO robb the people out of their aid mony so they can build mantions and drive mercedes, while the people are starving.

The Palestin Arabs who remained inside the settler-colony didn't prosper nor did they enjoy democracy. They were discriminated against in every way possible, both in law and in pratice. Similar to the "propserity" the native Africans enjyed inside the Apartheid European settelr-colony in South Africa.


and do you want to wait in poverty and misury for 80 more years

We are ready to wait 500 years in poverty and miseary. Ever heard of "I prefer dieing on my feet rather than living on my knees"??
The war of liberation waged by the opressed masses using revolutionary violence in the conext of a People's War and popular guerilla warfare will be long and bitter. But that is the price for freedom. Many other colonized masses have suffered and sacrificed a lot more than the Palestinians. 50 years of colonialism is nothing.


we both need to get along. there isnt an other option

no we don't need to get along.


if we dont get along the region will have another catastrofic event .chances are both nations will decemate with the atomic capabilities in the region.

If we don't get along, People's War and revolutionary violence will lead the path to victory and the eradiction of colonialism and imperialism.


the countrys surrounding you know how much they screwed with you and what debt they have for you. siria egipt and jordan will not be as tolarating as the israelies they will not let you accomplish you goals. they will keep you opressed as they didd befor 67

I know they will. They are reactionary Zionist-US agents in the region. They are the enmies of the masses and they are being faught along with their Zionist and US imperialist masters.


so comon think of coexistance and have a better future for your children,

The best future for our children will be ensured through People's War. Not "peace" or coexstance.


Check you history books . in 1948 who waged war with 7 nations against the israelies

Check YOUR history books. Did the arab states wake up one day and just decided to destroy the "poor jewish state"??
The arab states naturally refused to be colonized. Simple.


who refused a peace treaty with us . we send golda meir to every arab leader with a streched arm for piece. but thepastcant be fixed only the future counts

Good thing they refused the imperialist settlement and defeatist solutions of Zionist peace. But I won't say the same thing of Arab reactionaries today.

[bootleg42]

Someone just restrict izzy israeli now.

I mean for him to have the "we're here and there's nothing you can all do about it" REEKS of imperialism.

Restrict him, someone please!!!!

[izzy israeli]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 10:31 pm
Someone just restrict izzy israeli now.

I mean for him to have the "we're here and there's nothing you can all do about it" REEKS of imperialism.

Restrict him, someone please!!!!
Thanks for not shutgting me down , restricting what you dont like is a poor way of opening the mind to see adifferent view. enlightment is a multy opininion bord.I see that our diferences cant be reconcield. I will keep posting my opinion at any time i see an exentric vew i do not agree with. at the same time i extend a worm invite to a inteligent and respectful debate with out having to be ugly to a diferent opinion. I further my opinion and want to assure you . If israel was not just withits ideology israel would not exist.Again stop wining you chose the sword over the peace process, and you arnt happy with the resolt. nobody would have eliminated you if you stayed in your home in israel befor 1948. you got cold feet and with some IDF influence you fled to the gaza and the west bank.Dont be a cry baby or a sore looser. accept the path that your people chose. you arnt organized, your suni shiait conflict is an 800year conflict. your leaders are corupt, and the palestinians are abused by its leadership and the arab nations more than by " the imperialist israelis"Arafat the father of the palestinians in his death bed .said one regret i have . " i shuld have accepted the camp david proposal of a palestinian nation with a presence in jerusalem.from barak. I wuld also want to remined you that non of the arab nations are US controlled defenetly not siria . Bashar is getting the royal treatment from the US. a specisal birthday present to him. with that thing that happened in the desert "with hony you can catch more flies my friendt switch to some politics.and you could advance your case further.if there is a leader to admire isChanan Ashrawee. she can talk the talk and walk the walk.I would like to conclude with the blessing . SALAM ALECHUM>

[Bilan]

Originally posted by Revolution Until Victory
What socialism are you talking about???

Sounds like National Socialism.

[Revolution Until Victory]

Thanks for not shutgting me down , restricting what you dont like is a poor way of opening the mind to see adifferent view. enlightment is a multy opininion bord.I see that our diferences cant be reconcield. I will keep posting my opinion at any time i see an exentric vew i do not agree with. at the same time i extend a worm invite to a inteligent and respectful debate with out having to be ugly to a diferent opinion.

This is the policy of this forum. Those with reactionary views, anti-communists, capitlaists, pro-imperilaists, zionists, racists etc. are restricted. Still, no one will shut you down. You can still freely express your opnion in the Opossing Ideaologies Forum.


I further my opinion and want to assure you . If israel was not just withits ideology israel would not exist

What the hell?? so something wouldn't exist if its ideology wasn't just? so the Nazi ideology must be just, or else, Nazi Germany wouldn have existed...Zionist logic.


.Again stop wining you chose the sword over the peace process, and you arnt happy with the resolt.

What are you talking about?? who is whining here?? It is you and your ilk who are begging us to surrender and accept peace. We refuse peace. We have chosen revolutionary violence and People's War. We refuse to compromise, accept, or coexist with colonalism. This is a long and bitter war of liberation. We expect it to be diffecult and full of sacrifice. That's the price of freedom.


nobody would have eliminated you if you stayed in your home in israel befor 1948. you got cold feet and with some IDF influence you fled to the gaza and the west bank.

typical Zionists lunacy and myths. Doens't deserve a refutation.


Dont be a cry baby or a sore looser

Zionist colonizers are cry babies and sore loosers, not the Palestinian Arab revolutionaries.


accept the path that your people chose

My people have chosen the path of war of liberation, People's War, revolutionary violence, and anti-colonialism and anti-imperilaism. We fully accept, celebrate, and glorify this path. We are extremely proud of it.


you arnt organized, your suni shiait conflict is an 800year conflict

Ture, the liberation movment needs to be more orgnize and the people need to get over their secterian issues.


your leaders are corupt

Not all of our leaders are corrupt. YOUR leaders are the corrupt ones.


and the palestinians are abused by its leadership and the arab nations more than by " the imperialist israelis"

The Palestinian people are opressed by the Zionsit colonizers and thier reactionary agents and collaboraters in the region.


Arafat the father of the palestinians in his death bed .said one regret i have . " i shuld have accepted the camp david proposal of a palestinian nation with a presence in jerusalem.from barak.

1. Not all Palestinians consider Arafat the "father of the Palestinians". True in his early years he was a guerilla leader who fought couragesly in the mountains along the rest of the revolutionaries, but he had many shortcomings, the most major of which selling out the Palestinian cause begning in the 70's.

2. What he said is totally irrelivant.


I wuld also want to remined you that non of the arab nations are US controlled

:wacko:


defenetly not siria . Bashar is getting the royal treatment from the US

Syria is also a US-Zionist agent, reactionary regime in the region. But it must be said it is less of a US collaboraters that the rest.


switch to some politics.and you could advance your case further

"Political power grows out of the barrel of the gun"

We reject peace, politics, and negotiations. We choose People's War and revolutionary violence until total victory.


if there is a leader to admire isChanan Ashrawee. she can talk the talk and walk the walk

lol, if there is a leader to despise it is the bourgeoisy and corrupt Hanan Ashrawy. How the hell does she "talk the talk and walk the walk"?


I would like to conclude with the blessing . SALAM ALECHUM>

I would like to conclude with a reply to your blessing: FUCK YOU

[Revolution Until Victory]

Sounds like National Socialism.

:P