Im lost!

[chuckles]

okay ive just come over, and im not sure what i believe yet, ive had a look around and there is just so much and its all so confusing.

i've tried to look through some of the threads in learning but it just confuses me more.

what im asking is where should i start? i want to read up but i dont know whats good and whats not, could anyone help me please?

[Hiero]

What do you want to learn?

Here are some good classics.

The Principles of Communism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/index.htm)

The Communist Manifesto (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm)

State and Revolution (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/index.htm)

Wage Labour and Capital (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/index.htm)

I think they are good starters. Just go through them, ask questions where answers are needed, don't be scared, it will actually helps improve our knowledge of Communism when we go back over theory.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 10:11 pm
okay ive just come over, and im not sure what i believe yet, ive had a look around and there is just so much and its all so confusing.

i've tried to look through some of the threads in learning but it just confuses me more.

what im asking is where should i start? i want to read up but i dont know whats good and whats not, could anyone help me please?
Maybe you'd find a Question & answer format helpful?

You could try the anarchist FAQ here (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1931/)

Which gives a good overview of anarchism as well as anarchist analysis of capitalism etc.

[StartToday]

I think the http://www.oneparty.co.uk/html/courses.html]Eight (http://www.oneparty.co.uk/index.html?[url) Class Course in Marxism[/url] is the best for somebody completely new.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

the free peoples movments guide

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

This is the best introduction to Marxism I know of:

http://www.istendency.net/pdf/revideas.pdf

[More Fire for the People]

I’m going to warn you right now that in the stage of development you at — just learning your ABCs of socialism — you’re going to be very confused. There are two reasons for that. First of all, the subject matter is very extensive and there are a lot of good places to start. It all really depends on what your interests are. Secondly, the people on the revolutionary and radical left do not have uniform beliefs even amongst their own circles. For instance, hastalavictoria and I both share some common views on humanistic Marxism but we differ in out political outlooks. Likewise, Faceless and Rosa are both Leninists but they vigorously oppose each other on the issue of Marx’s conception of development.

So no matter how good or bad your start is your going to wind up changing your views once you gain your own feel for the movement and see corrections in socialist theory in your daily life.

I think the best starting places are those that (1) introduce you to the terminology; (2) outline some core concepts; (3) help you find your own niche;

I recommend:

The Communist Manifesto (http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm) by Karl Marx & Fredrick Engels
Chapter 5 of The Civil War in France (http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/ch05.htm) by Karl Marx
Workers Councils (http://marxists.org/archive/pannekoe/1936/councils.htm) by Anton Pannekoek

[Tower of Bebel]

The communist manifesto (Marx), Capital (Marx) + faqs on anarchism are both good starts.

[UndergroundConnexion]

i would like to refer you to the communist principles study group. This can be found in the subtopic study groups, and will be very helpful

[Hit The North]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 14, 2007 09:33 pm
This is the best introduction to Marxism I know of:

http://www.istendency.net/pdf/revideas.pdf
I agree with Rosa in this matter. Particularly the chapter on Marx's method.

[Janus]

I would say that if you're lost, it's best to start with the basics and foundational principles of communism. Check out the Revleft dictionary and some of the basic communism guides for starters such as Principles of Communism. If you have further questions, don't be afraid to ask.

[chuckles]

okay thanks alot for all your help, its greatly appreciated.

what i want to know is, are the writings of Karl marx applicable to all strands of leftism, or just to marxism?

[apathy maybe]

Hehe. I'll start with your first post, where should you start? I would start in the RevLeft dictionary, read the threads around Learning and Theory that look interesting, and then explore what interests you from there.

I wouldn't read any of the Marxist stuff recommended (at least not yet), well actually, I don't know what that thing recommended by StartToday is, the page consists seemingly only of JavaScript, great way to stop me from reading your page... And I haven't read the thing Rosa recommended either.

If you are just starting out, the Communist Manifesto isn't going to do anything for you. Similarly, An Anarchist FAQ, while a great document is also incredibly large.

So yes, start in the Dictionary and read the threads in Learning that seem interesting. Forget the Communist Manifesto and similar, because they won't do much for you at this stage.


Onto is Marx relevant for everybody? Yes and no. Marxist writings have been very influential in Leftist thought, however, the extent to which they are used outside Marxism is debatable. Quite a number of anarchists use Marxist thought (or at least terminology) for example, as do some social democrats.

If nothing else, because of the huge influence Marxist thought has had, other leftist theories and ideologies need to have a criticism of it.

[The Grey Blur]

The Communist Manifesto is actually an extremely short book Apathy. I'd recommend that as a beginning chuckles.

[apathy maybe]

I have read it. In fact it was one of the first "revolutionary texts" that I read before becoming a revolutionary. And it didn't do much for me. So, I'm simply saying that it isn't a great starting point.

I then went on to say that An Anarchist FAQ, while good is too large. (In fact, it is a great text, but way too long. Both for an introduction and for an FAQ. But shit happens.)

[bolshevik butcher]

The communist manifesto was the first revolutionary text I read and found it greatly informative and useful as it introduces the basic ideas of marxism very well.

[Janus]

what i want to know is, are the writings of Karl marx applicable to all strands of leftism, or just to marxism?
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this but Marx's theories are still applicable today to our current society and the radical leftist movement.

[R_P_A_S]

i dont get how people recommend the communist manifesto as a first read? maybe im slower the next guy.. but that book IS NOT FOR BEGINNERS.

[chuckles]

thanks alot for that clarification Apathy Maybe, it really helped.

and the FAQ was really helpfull CompañeroDeLibertad, thanks

another question, lets say true communism has been achieved, and there's a criminal who doesn't care for anyone and is killing people and all that jazz, what happens to him? and what if someone refuses to work, or can't work? and who distributes the wealth, surely someone must do it?

im just really perplexed about the day-to-day organisation and running of a communist society thats all.

[Chicano Shamrock]

This book is a good place to start
http://www.amazon.com/Communist-Manifesto-...79298235&sr=8-4 (http://www.amazon.com/Communist-Manifesto-Other-Revolutionary-Writings/dp/0486424650/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4/104-4973894-6112744?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179298235&sr=8-4)

If it is at your local library you should check it out. It has the Communist Manifesto, Bakunin's "God and State", Proudhon's "What is property", and a bunch of other interesting stuff that are all short readings. You don't actually have to take a massive amount of time to get through a certain writing in that book.

I think the Communist Manifesto is a good place to start. It introduces you to a bunch of terms real fast but in most versions there are side notes explaining the terms.

But overall I think before you start with the philosophical stuff I think George Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" is a good place to start. It is an interesting book that is more about personal experience in revolution than all that heavy philosophical junk.

There really is no refusal to work in a communist society because
a) a communist society seeks the abolition of work
b) there is no contract that says you have to work in a communist society

In a communist society people would live by the maxim "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" as opposed to the socialist maxim "From each, to each according to their DEEDS".

The best thing to remember is to QUESTION EVERYTHING. No matter if the person with the pamphlet calls you their comrade you should question what they are teaching. Especially question someone who says they have your interests at heart.

[apathy maybe]

That final point is very important! Question everything! Don't just accept something just because the organisation you are in says it is so. Come to your own conclusion based on the facts as you know them.

If you don't have enough facts, well then, simply come to a rough conclusion.

Just because we here on this website say something, doesn't mean it is true, read widely, make up your own mind.

[Janus]

and there's a criminal who doesn't care for anyone and is killing people and all that jazz, what happens to him?
Well, first he needs to be stopped and then charged in a court.


and what if someone refuses to work, or can't work?
There's a major difference between the two. If someone simply refuses to work then it's doubtful that s/he will be considered a part of the community by others and thus will not be part of the "social net".


and who distributes the wealth, surely someone must do it?
The community itself. As for who does it directly, they will need to be people whom can be trusted.


im just really perplexed about the day-to-day organisation and running of a communist society thats all.
It's nearly impossible to simply predict the details on which/how a future society will run. We're communists not prophets.

[chuckles]

Well, first he needs to be stopped and then charged in a court.

who will stop him? surely there wont be a police force?

and how would an anarchist organisation run, as they are against hierachy, how do they operate? dont organisations need hierachy to operate smoothly in their day to day organisation and planning?

[abbielives!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 11:44 am

Well, first he needs to be stopped and then charged in a court.

who will stop him? surely there wont be a police force?

and how would an anarchist organisation run, as they are against hierachy, how do they operate? dont organisations need hierachy to operate smoothly in their day to day organisation and planning?

in areas where anarchism has been at least partally applied niegborhood watch groups replaced police forces.
in anarchist organizations those affected get a say in how the problem is to be solved.
hierachy is i think damaging because people who have no idea how to perform a job are ordering those who do

[The Feral Underclass]

We're all fucking lost! It's like a massive game of where's the beginning!

[IcarusAngel]

The Communist Manifesto was written for the masses and it is pretty easy to understand. Whereas Das Kapital uses economic theory to show demonstrate the exploitations of capitalism, The Communist Manifesto is more political theory and it puts it in terms the average person can understand (like "the state exists to manage the affairs of the bourgeoisie" and the worker only finds work so long as his labor increases profits etc.), and it contains a couple of footnotes explaining the terms by Engels. It's pretty direct, but nonetheless contains things not talked about in mundane and ordinary politics.

However, I also recommend reading Proudhon and the anarchists, as well as the anarcho-communists along with it.

[whoknows]

for beginers I think one of the best editions of the communist manifesto is the one
edited by Phil Gasper which was compiled in 2005 and published by Haymarket books. It has a great number of foot notes that the beginer will find helpful.

[Red1966]

Could I recommend the World Socialist Web Site (www.wsws.org) which provides daily analyses of world events from a working class perspective. It is published by the Internatioanl Committee of the Fourth International (ICFI) and has sections/parties in Germany, Sri Lanka, UK, USA, Canada and Australia (Socialist Equality Party).

It also explains the rationale behind the finding of ICFI and strongly defends the work and teachings of Leon Trotsky.

[Bilan]

Personally, I'd recomend these:

Anarchy - Errico Malatesta (http://134.173.117.152/anarchist_archives/malatesta/anarchy.html)

Stateless Socialism: Anarchism - Mikhail Bakunin (http://134.173.117.152/anarchist_archives/bakunin/stateless.html)

Anarchism: It's philosophy and Ideal - Peter Kropotkin (http://134.173.117.152/anarchist_archives/kropotkin/philandideal.html)

Errico Malatesta's in particular.

Hope this helps. :)