White Guilt - Are you ashamed

[Len]

Is any of the white people here ashamed of your race? there was a debate at another board about this zso figured i'd bring it here. I feel bad about it sometimes. It sems like we've always been the opressors. Slavery, civil rights, etc. I'm certainly not proud of my race. You can't choose it, so why be proud of it.I've unofficially changed my self to 50% black, 25% hispanic, 15% Asian, 9% arab, and 1% caucasion. I'm like a melting pot.

[lifetrnal]

Mi Amigo, I do not even think of things in the perspective of race. It seems to me that we are all poor: black, white, indian, asian... Poverty and explotation know no skin color. Those who oppress us are the same, and we talk about race at their behest. It is easy for them, you see, when the poor are divided, and instead of class-consciousness the impovrished of the world divide themselves into racial-*consciousness.
So, do you ask me if I am ashamed of my race? NO, for my race is the working class, and it is my race that will lead the revolution.

[new democracy]

Great post lifetrnal. i don't know if i am considered as white(i am jewish with white color skin)but i don't see why white people should be ashamed. i mean, do YOU oppress other minorities? what do YOU did to harm other minorities? i don't feel ashamed because of Sharon, Herzl or any other zionist leader, because i don't see why i am responsible for their crimes. so i don't think you, or any other person should feel guilt. but of course, don't be proud of it, nationalism is one of the worst thing ever

[nz revolution]

My step mum told me she feels ashamed sometimes...

shes mental though, she tried to tell off me and my friend for "borrowing" an American flag (the flag of oppression)

[CompadreGuerrillera]

thats right comrade!! our only race and nationality is mankind and the working class, it doesnt matter what we look like, cause well all fight the fight together in solidarity!!

[BOZG]

We live in a society where there is a heavy emphasis put on race and unfortunately because of that it is impossible to completely ignore thinking of people by race.
As for feeling guilt, I do feel guilt even though I hope I've never oppressed people but I'm pretty sure that some of my ancestors have and as much as we try take responsibility for our own actions, we will always feel some sort of guilt even from others.

[IHP]

Its funny that this thread has popped up. I am currently reading "Stupid White Men" by Michael Moore. (highly recommended!). There is a chapter called "kill Whitey" its all about all the horrible things that white people have done.

Anyway, no I'm not ashamed, nor am I proud of my skin colour. I am what I am. I just try to be a good person.

I like lifetrnals post, nicely said comrade.

--IHP


(Edited by i hate pinochet at 9:26 am on Dec. 13, 2002)

[PunkRawker677]

While my skin color is very light, i'm considered Hispanic and not White, but nonetheless, what was said earlier is very true: Poverty knows no race. I'm not fighting for any race, nor any color, nor any religion. I'm fighting for the workers, all races, colors and religions alike.

[oki]

Quote: from Len on 3:06 am on Dec. 12, 2002
Is any of the white people here ashamed of your race? there was a debate at another board about this zso figured i'd bring it here. I feel bad about it sometimes. It sems like we've always been the opressors. Slavery, civil rights, etc. I'm certainly not proud of my race. You can't choose it, so why be proud of it.I've unofficially changed my self to 50% black, 25% hispanic, 15% Asian, 9% arab, and 1% caucasion. I'm like a melting pot.


hey what board was that?sounds waaayyy to familiair..
accusations of havuing white guilt is the same as accusations of beeing politically correct.as I see itr its another cliche that rightwingers use to steriotype leftists,and thereby making it not nessesairy for them to debate about the issues.

[redstar2000]

We KNOW now that "race" is an ideological invention of ruling classes--it has NO scientific validity at all. So there's "nothing" there to be ashamed of or proud of.

Beyond that, I'm always suspicious of "guilt" as a motivation...in seems to involve an uncritical relationship with those whom you've "wronged". In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Black Panther Party had a fair number of "white auxillaries" who, it seemed to me, were motivated by "white guilt" and who consequently were simply UNABLE to see any shortcomings or errors in the BPP. That was NOT a good thing. :cool:

[Dhul Fiqar]

I feel highly guilty about reaping the rewards of white imperialism and cultural hegemony in the recent past. That being said, I didn't do it personally and the best solution is to use your priviledged position to work to change the system.

--- G.

[Iris]

I agree with what was previously stated. I don't think we should let superficial things like "race", "skin colour" or "religion" divide us up. The only difference in society is class, you're either a powerfull, rich, capitalistic leader or you're not.
Anyway I think that we should feel more responsible about our own actions rather than those of our anscestors. You can't do anything to change the past (don't cry over spilled milk) but you can do a hell of a lot to change the future. So instead of mooping over all the wrongs our "races" have done I think we would be better off not trying to repeat them.

[Ari HR]

Quote: from new democracy on 3:31 am on Dec. nationalism is one of the worst thing ever


Definetely right comrade. My country is full of fucken nationalists always trying to gain some cheap political points. I wan't to puke when I see how some guy from music scene promotes nationalism by his fasci-songs.

[canikickit]

I'm not fucking ashamed in the slightest. One of the most ridiculous things I've heard in the last two months.

[Sasafrás]

I'm not white.

[Xvall]

You shouldn't have 'white guilt' whatever a 'white person' (I have never actually seen a white person, I don't know why you use that word) has done in the past is not your fault. Any sort of 'ethnic guilt' is stupid. Infact, ethnicity is stupid. When the revolution comes, we will be sure to change the dictionary. The dictionary will have one definition for race, and that will be a game in which to contestants attempt to reach the same point first.

[Pete]

I do not feel guilty for my genetics. How can I? I can only feel guilty for action that I either commit or condone.

[Umoja]

I'm not white, let me lay that out first. A thing quite a few Black people to the left hate is when White Liberals totally dismiss the idea of race. It exist, you can't ignore it yet, maybe in Utopia you can, but not here. Turning your back to it and calling it an invention of the ruling class is right, but it doesn't work like that perfectly in theory. I really am not coherant enough now, as I just got in the house. So just post some counter arguement to this or something...

[Nickademus]

well you're right, race does exist and we can't ignore it. that doesn't mean we have to treat people differently because of their race.

i am 'white' apparently, as in caucasion and no i feel no guilt. I have not oppressed anyone. the only way i would feel guilt is if i didn't do whatever i could change how society still deals with racial differences between people.

[BasementAddix]

whoa?...now i should be blamed for what my family may have done hundreds of years ago?...come on now...we have toooooo many people claiming victim in this world...

[Umoja]

Blaming people for something that peoples family did in the past is silly... but life insurance is a reward you get from your ancestors.... but besides that I don't blame people for being white, since they didn't choose it. But I blame those who are racist, in a racist society.

[Dhul Fiqar]

The feeling of guilt is not the same as blame or the noun "guilt" as in "guilty".

I don't feel responsible, but I do feel bad about reaping the rewards of horrible acts in the past. I think that's something that's yet to be fully adressed in this thread, we wouldn't be relatively well off middle class people with internet connections and all kinds of daily luxuries if it wasn't for the systematic exclusion of large segments of the planet from these resources and quality of life.

The better question is whether feeling guilt about this is helpful or indeed rational. It's probably neither.

--- G.

[suffianr]

White guilt...haha, that's funny!

So, what am I supposed to feel? Asian Congeniality? Brown Benevolence? Fuhgeddaboudit!

The Japanese government has yet to pay compensation to the descendents of "comfort women" raped by Japanese troops throughout Asia during WW2, the Aussies haven't settled aboriginal issues, Indians haven't solved the Kashmir problem, face it, nothing is ever going to be done about all of those things because most of it's over and done with...

You shouldn't feel guilty or responsible for anything that was done in the past, it's just useless because you can't go back and change it. Our generation has enough shit to deal with...We don't need to feel sorry for some stupid blunders our forefathers committed when they were seventeen or whatever...Sure, we need to acknowledge the severity of their actions or condemn their own ignorance, but it's really too late to do anything past that...Either our generation chooses to forgive and forget, or we take the path of our elders and continue to feel guilt about the past...Only to have the hate and regret passed on to future generations...

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

In a new socialist state, we should ignore race of someone.

What's race: the small differnces that stupid ppl see and call "weaknesses". We are all human and beeing black doesnt make u something else. It hurts me to see how ppl are beeing judged just because of their race. Beeing called dum even if it could be the smartest of the world. Race differnces should be ignored cause it makes ppl blind.

[Umoja]

According to Assata Shakur, people in Cuba generally identify themselves as Cuban before they would call themselves any race, and even so most people call themselves "Mulattos" in a good context.

[oconner]

I am white but the worst thing i've done was to steal a cocktail umbrella from Woolworths....I don't have anything to be ashamed Of, there were bad white people but there were good white people, I feel neither proud or ashamed of my race, as I didn't cause it, it's not my personal acheivement. if that makes sense. Like I'd be proud of myself if I painted a good picture or something, cous I did that myself, but I wouldn't be proud of my race as it's nothing i can change. Oh I'll shut up now.

[sypher]

I too do not look at race (or try to at least) However at times I realize how the white people have exploited everyone else and I am sad. I never ashamed for being white. I didn't kill any minorities so I'm fine, ya?

[Iris]

I agree with the fact that race does excist in the real world, and probably will go on excisting for a long time. However race doesn't have to always inevidably lead to racism.
race and racism are two completely different things which have been merged and considered as one for way too long. You could argue that belonging to a certain race causes you to be at some level a bit of a racist, but that doesn't mean that because you belong to a race you are forced to be racist to all others.
Am I making ANY sense?

[Dhul Fiqar]

Yes, we have done nothing wrong (well, most of us), but have we not benefited from the immoral actions of others? I think the answer is a resounding yes, how we respond to that fact is another matter and like I said before feeling guilty is neither constructive nor helpful.

--- G.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Racism is another way of catogarizing people anf fitting them conveniently into classifications.
In America:
Asians are poor, hard workers.
hispanics are poor illegal gang members
blacks: poor crack dealers
whites:wealthy
Note: these are just stereotypes often associated with American residents, not that I or all Americans feel this way.

Reacism is wrong, you shouldn't hold people respomsible for what their ancestors did. You can't blame someone for being racist in a racist community.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Yes, but I repeat: can a person be held responsible for reaping the rewards of what their ancestors did?

--- G.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

We shouldn't be ashamed for what our ancestors did, only if we are taking advantage of it and are continuening it.

[canikickit]

Yes, we have done nothing wrong (well, most of us), but have we not benefited from the immoral actions of others? I think the answer is a resounding yes, how we respond to that fact is another matter and like I said before feeling guilty is neither constructive nor helpful.

Yeah, I know exactly where you're coming from, Dhul, but guilt is not the right word (I think you'll agree), I feel anger at the things people (not white people, people) have done in the past, and the way things are done in the present, and I feel fear about how things will be done in the future.

That's why I'm here.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Dhul Fiqar on 4:08 pm on Dec. 15, 2002
Yes, but I repeat: can a person be held responsible for reaping the rewards of what their ancestors did?

--- G.


i feel no guilty, but i'm using the advantages i have been givven to help bring about change. i think if i was doing something to keep the status quo, then i would not feel right....i agree that perhaps guilt isn't the right word. but i feel i morally and philosophically have to help effect change.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Good point about the wording, "guilt" is probably not appropriate.

Anyway, thanks Nickademus and canikickit for finally adressing this part of the issue, and great points about working against the status quo and looking to the future :)

--- G.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

How bout my quote, any replies to it??

We shouldn't be ashamed for what our ancestors did, only if we are taking advantage of it and are continuening it.

[Exploited Class]

Guilt over one's race? What a funny concept.

I am guessing that the ruling class enjoys our own segergation of races. Keeping us from uniting against a common and true enemy. It also distracts us from the real issues. I am sure the ruling class enjoys nothing more than us fighting it out with us. Divisions growing.

I have no idea what race I am a decendent of, and I do not care. I am apart of one race, the human race and if I feel any guilt about that, it is only that I have not used every moment on this planet working to help my race achieve it's desired goal of freedom. I feel guilt when I do something other than reading, learning or writing to help remove the shackels that have bound my people by a select few.

[Comrade Marcel]

I don't feel guilty but I don't blame some people, who for reactionary reasons may hate me because of my skin color. Racism & prejudism (of all types) need to be dealt with dialectically from a Marxist standpoint.... These things take time... I think though that ultimately racism will be abolished when things like private property and class hiarchy are abolished.

[proud mary]

If we think about ourself as about members of certain rase, then we are not far away from being rasists. Think about yourself as about HUMAN, and treat others equaly, as human beings. There lies the root of RIGHT, JUSTICE and EQUALITY

[nz revolution]

like on stupid government forms they ask for "ethnicity" what a crock. ALthough it says you can tick up to 5, I might start doing that.

should be fun

[MJM]

On forms that ask for race or ethnicity; I tick other then specify- HUMAN.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Quote: from CCCP on 9:03 pm on Dec. 16, 2002
How bout my quote, any replies to it??

We shouldn't be ashamed for what our ancestors did, only if we are taking advantage of it and are continuening it.


Sorry mate, missed it on the first pass, but I agree wholeheartedly :)

--- G.

[SuicideisPainless]

no, why be ashamed? whatever our ancestors have done it was them who done it not us, so what have we to be ashamed of

[lifetrnal]

What purpose is there to talk about race? The question begs deviciveness. We are all poor alike black and white, and if you want to *talk* about race you are giving into what the Capitalists want. The more we talk about how evil the whites have been, or how the whites don't recognize the plight of the oppressed... the longer we stay divided. YES, blacks have been oppressed, but lets not overlook that so have whites and Indians.... well hell they were just eliminated... the revolution must march forth in UNITY of all the working class.


(Edited by lifetrnal at 5:21 am on Dec. 19, 2002)

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I am not proud nor ashamed of my race, something that has simply been used by the ruling as an instrument of oppression and should have no meaning when it comes to culture.

Regarding what people of my (caucasian) race have done, I am also not ashamed, because I believe that it has been well establishe in my society (America) that most of the shameful things commited by whities have been pardoned by the white community and are widely know as acts of missled ignorance, such as slavery or the Spanish inquisition.

The good acts commited by whities do not amount to many that only whites could claim as 'their achievement', nor do I wish for my race to claim achievements for themselves.

In political parctice, I believe that racism is no longer an issue, most America politicians are intimidated by the consequences to express the hatred they might harbour for another race because of political correctness.

In actuality, racism is still much of an issue, American scannot get over prejudice when it comes to race. If America is so prejudice-free, racism-free, and oppression-free, then why are different races autoamticaly stereotyped as a certain class and also set aside in their nighborhoods segregated by choice.

[Reuben]

While different ethnic groups exist, race is a wholly flawed and constructed concept.

FUrthermore I do not believe in collective responsibility. I objct, for example, to what Israel is doing. However as a jew I do not feel personally ashamed. Nor do I expect Germans or Russias to feel ashamed for the way jews have been treated in these nations historically.

[Comrade Daniel]

Race means nothing to me, my cousin is black, I'm white, some friends of me are afghans who cares?
I think race is a bad word, if you classify people in races then your a nationalist (which is not good at all)

[mentalbunny]

I haven't read all the posts, but here's my opinion.

I'm not playing "victim" here but sometimes my conscience does get at me for what the English have done, although this happens much less nowadays. My first major attack of conscience was several years ago, it got me for a bit but it's faded.

What is the point in living for the past? We have to make the future...

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from proud mary on 3:37 am on Dec. 17, 2002
If we think about ourself as a member of a certain rase, then we are not far away from being racists. Think about yourself as a HUMAN, and treat others equaly, as human beings. There lies the root of RIGHT, JUSTICE and EQUALITY


One of the smartest things said here.

(Edited by CCCP at 9:30 pm on Dec. 23, 2002)

[mentalbunny]

Quote: from CCCP on 9:29 pm on Dec. 23, 2002

Quote: from proud mary on 3:37 am on Dec. 17, 2002
If we think about ourself as a member of a certain rase, then we are not far away from being racists. Think about yourself as a HUMAN, and treat others equaly, as human beings. There lies the root of RIGHT, JUSTICE and EQUALITY


One of the smartest things said here.

(Edited by CCCP at 9:30 pm on Dec. 23, 2002)


Yep, I agree totally.
However, getting everyone to realise this and act on it, is much harder than saying it.

VIVE LA REVOLUCION

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote isn't from me, it's from Proud Mary. I totaly agree on it and wanted to remind everyone of it.

[eyesclosed]

me being german and cuban im just a very confused person......i believe its who u are and not what ur race is or what they have done......they may have done something wrong yes, but why should u pay for it.......

[Fires of History]

I'm as 'white' as they come. Am I guilty?

No.

Why?

What did I do?

Racial distictions, and racist histories, are simply covers for class war throughout the ages. Had non-white races controlled the means of empire, expansion, and conquest, the whites would have been slaves.

Race isn't underlying our history of hate, slavery, and death, capitalism is.

[Beccie]

Quote: from Fires of History on 8:21 pm on Jan. 7, 2003
I'm as 'white' as they come. Am I guilty?

No.

Why?

What did I do?

Racial distictions, and racist histories, are simply covers for class war throughout the ages. Had non-white races controlled the means of empire, expansion, and conquest, the whites would have been slaves.

Race isn't underlying our history of hate, slavery, and death, capitalism is.

Well said Comrade.