Venezuela Won't Truly Be Socialist Until It Has A

[FOREVER LEFT]

Don't get me wrong I support Chavez. I admire what he is trying to do. But until he fully expropriates the expropriators and has a civil war there can be no real socialist revolution in Venezuela.

Remember what Lenin said,"There has never been a truly great revolution in history without civil war."

[yns_mr]

if there is a way to transform a capitalist country into a socialist one, why one should tear blood? This would be terrorism not revolution i think...

[OneBrickOneVoice]

but its not gonna be socialist without the civil war. Look Chavez is a big anti-imperialist, but to create socialism, there would need to be some form of a cultural revolution which refutes all neoliberalism through the mass mobilization of students and worker councils that have been formed this may lead to a real war, but the outcome will be a Venezula without oil barrons driving limosines and homeless people struggling to survive

[Janus]

But until he fully expropriates the expropriators and has a civil war there can be no real socialist revolution in Venezuela.
Chavez will never do that which is why we can't depend on him; only the worker's movement itself can push for that.


why one should tear blood? This would be terrorism not revolution i think...
Terrorism has a specific definition. When you consider anyone who uses violence a terrorist, then that destroys the whole meaning and point of the word.

[la-troy]

What do you mean by civil war?
I think there will be violence but not on the scale of civil war as I see civil war.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Chavez will never do that which is why we can't depend on him; only the worker's movement itself can push for that.

I actually for some reason think that alot of this would and will play out as actions by students sort of like the GPCR

[Tower of Bebel]

For Venezuela to become realy socialist, power must be put in the hands of the workers.

[Demogorgon]

Oh lord, more bloodthirstiness. :lol:

A civil war might be necessary for socialism to truly succeed there, it might not. Hopefully the latter. But to be actually calling for one when currently there is no need for one?

Civil wars are hugely miserable experiences and should never be sought after. Sometimes they are necessary, but never desirable. In civil wars workers fight against other workers. Who desires that?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

no he means a civil war like the socialists and the proletariat vs. the capitalists and big oil barrons. And I think its pretty obvious that socialism can't be established through the ballot box. Its been what? 6 7 years of Chavez in power? Yet the oil barrons have hardly been touched and there are McDonalds and Burger Kings all over.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by Down-For-People's-War!@May 12, 2007 02:55 am
no he means a civil war like the socialists and the proletariat vs. the capitalists and big oil barrons. And I think its pretty obvious that socialism can't be established through the ballot box. Its been what? 6 7 years of Chavez in power? Yet the oil barrons have hardly been touched and there are McDonalds and Burger Kings all over.
Do you think sparking a civil war is suddenly going to change all that? They have a bad habit of not working.

You are never goin g to get a civil war that is anything other than worker against worker. Even something like the Russian civil war was just that. Do you think that capitalists get their hands dirty and come and do the actual fighting themselves?

[yns_mr]

In The Guerilla Warfare,Che says violance should be avoided unless it is necessary.That is to say, if there is a chance to establish a socialist society without violance,there is no good in using violance...

[bolshevik butcher]

The Venezuelan revolution has already had violence. The coup, the constant attacks on trade unionists and particularly peasant leaders by right wing paramilitaries and some odd pseudo maoist group.

Why does it need a "civil war" as such though? Class war doesnt nescesserally need to take the form of a conventional civil war. In Venezuela socialism is being built and increasingly the class enemy is found inside the right wing of the bolivarian movement and in the state bueraucracy, I don't see how this nescessitates a civil war though.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Civil wars are incredibley classistic. Venezuela may foreseeably need the people to go above and beyond what Chavez is doing to begin the revolution in earnest, but a civil war would just be another way of dividing working-class people into two armed camps and watching them kill one another.

[Taboo Tongue]

Venezuela won't be socialist until the more developed nations are.
Venezuela is going through it's 'age of reform,' not the foundation of socialism. There won't be a (pseudo or real) socialist-civil-war, when we look at the ones in Central America the reason they happened was because the people were being shit on by the governments\capitalist. The Venezuelan government is helping the people (well, being a great class mediator) by reforming the laws, just like Roosevelt did in the U.S.
I support Venezuela because it is anti-imperialist which will weaken the government where I live. But as far as I know the U.S. employees of Citgo are paid similar wages to that of Exxon Mobil. What's happening in Venezuela is good, but it's what is to be expected, from a country going through its age of refom.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 12, 2007 10:11 am
Why does it need a "civil war" as such though?
Because, perhaps, of remnants of Christian eschatology in the leftist thought. If it isn't apocaliptical enough, it cannot be revolutionary.

Luís Henrique

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by Luís Henrique+May 13, 2007 02:49 pm--> (Luís Henrique @ May 13, 2007 02:49 pm)
bolshevik [email protected] 12, 2007 10:11 am
Why does it need a "civil war" as such though?
Because, perhaps, of remnants of Christian eschatology in the leftist thought. If it isn't apocaliptical enough, it cannot be revolutionary.

Luís Henrique [/b]
I can't help but get this picture of most people in this post. Venezuela is proof that socialism and working class militatncy is far from dead, if anything its on the increase. People living in their box ticking ultraleftist version of the world are not going to be much use in building solidiarity with these struggles. How can we possibly tell the Venezuelans that to have socialism "you must have a civil war", that just sounds absurd.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Taboo [email protected] 13, 2007 05:45 am
Venezuela is going through it's 'age of reform,' not the foundation of socialism.
And what exactly is an "age of reform"?

Luís Henrique

[Taboo Tongue]

Originally posted by Luís Henrique+May 13, 2007 10:14 am--> (Luís Henrique @ May 13, 2007 10:14 am)
Taboo [email protected] 13, 2007 05:45 am
Venezuela is going through it's 'age of reform,' not the foundation of socialism.
And what exactly is an "age of reform"?

Luís Henrique[/b]
The age of reform in capitalism is where the capitalist governmeant essentially gives in a little to the workers (to quell class antagonisms) until the capitalist 'can no longer afford to do so.' I don't know if you are familiar with U.S. history but it lasted in the U.S. from about 1935 (with the National Labor Relations Act\F D Roosevelt) to apparently the late 70's (http://rs2k.revleft.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1137861552&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&).

[VukBZ2005]

Ok, "buddy", to say that Venezuela is going through an "Age of Reform" is one thing. But it is another when you actually look at the fact that it is not an industrialized country and then continue to say that it is going through an "Age of Reform". I have not ever heard of a country that has not been industrialized and thus has gone into an "Age of Reform".

A country has to be totally industrialized in order to through a "Age of Reform".

Venezuela has never been a truly industrialized country in its entire history and since Hugo Chavez came to power, it seems that it is only now that Venezuela is beginning its course on the path to total industrialization. We can see this with the development of Inveval, Invepal, Invetex and many other industries, not to mention, the development of CONIBA and the "Inside the Factory" mission. Plus, since Chavez has come to power, even though he has not devalued the Bolivar (something that will eventually be done soon), the rate of industrial growth has been accelerating at 24% per year. From what I can see, Venezuela is finally well on its way to becoming fully industrialized. It just has to do lot more work though.

This is great, in comparison with the destruction of what existed of Venezuela's industrial capacity that occurred in Venezuela before Chavez came around.

[Severian]

A workers' or socialist revolution necessarily involves smashing the old state machinery (military officer structure, bureaucracy), which has not happened in Venezuela. Historically, this has usually involved civil war due to the armed resistance of the old ruling class, which refuses to give up its privileges.

But to make civil war the criterion is just stupid, like many people have said, so stupid this thread is completely pointless. Closed.