Aggravation of struggle under socialism?

[Die Neue Zeit]

From my heydays as a Stalinist, I got acquainted with the idea of the "aggravation of class struggle along with the development of socialism." I don't know: maybe the wrong words were used, or was this whole theory developed by Stalin wrong (given the Maoist spin of the bourgeoisie within socialism)?

The reason I ask is that there really needs to be set clear amongst all of us that there are TWO transitional periods, and not just one: DOTP and socialism. Surprisingly, Marx discussed more about the second transitional period than about the first, as if the DOTP would transition into socialism very quickly.

[From my reading of Lenin, I think there was an implication - if not explicit material - that the DOTP was a more protracted transition period than socialism per se.]

Back to the original question: how can there be a development of socialism when the DOTP hasn't even developed fully yet (emerging out of revolutionary stamocap, for example)?

[At least that's less removed from reality than the idea of revolution in ANY country directly going into the DOTP, even when emerging from post-feudal relations.]

Is it more appropriate to say that there is an aggravation of the class struggle under the DOTP instead (the Russian Civil War being a prime example of this)?

[Rawthentic]

Yes, class struggles continue under the DoP, which can and usually does take different forms as it conforms to the needs of the proletariat and its conditions of liberation.

One of the things that I have learned on Humanism is that proletarian consciousness and action never stop fighting for freedom.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 02:58 am
Yes, class struggles continue under the DoP, which can and usually does take different forms as it conforms to the needs of the proletariat and its conditions of liberation.

One of the things that I have learned on Humanism is that proletarian consciousness and action never stop fighting for freedom.
Indeed, but do they merely continue under the DOTP, or intensify? I don't think any major Marxist ever talked much about class struggle in the DOTP, focusing instead on revolution.

[And what do those tongs in your avatar represent?]

[bezdomni]

[And what do those tongs in your avatar represent?]
Suasage workers.


Indeed, but do they continue under the DOTP, or intensify? I don't think any major Marxist ever talked much about class struggle in the DOTP, focusing instead on revolution.
Class antagonisms intensify in the period just before a revolution. That is why revolutions happen - class division becomes so sharp that revolution is inevitable.

Class antagonisms certainly still continue, and depending on circumstances, they continue very strong through the DoP.


In China, although in the main socialist transformation has been completed with respect to the system of ownership, and although the large-scale and turbulent class struggles of the masses characteristic of the previous revolutionary periods have in the main come to an end, there are still remnants of the overthrown landlord and comprador classes, there is still a bourgeoisie, and the remolding of the petty bourgeoisie has only just started. The class struggle is by no means over. The class struggle between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie, the class struggle between the different political forces, and the class struggle in the ideological held between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie will continue to be long and tortuous and at times will even become very acute. The proletariat seeks to transform the world according to its own world outlook, and so does the bourgeoisie. In this respect, the question of which will win out, socialism or capitalism, is still not really settled.
- Mao, On the Correct Handling of Contradictions Among the People

[Janus]

[And what do those tongs in your avatar represent?]
Suasage workers.
No, they represent worker tongs; the type that one might encounter in an industrial setting.

[Pirate Utopian]

I think class struggle will intensify as bourgeoises will try to regain their postions.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 03:53 pm


[And what do those tongs in your avatar represent?]
Suasage workers.
No, they represent worker tongs; the type that one might encounter in an industrial setting.
I know. But they look like sausage tongs, that one might encounter near a grill.

Aren't the tongs a bit redundant? The hammer is already there to signify the industrial proletariat.

[Janus]

I know.
Yeah, I figured it was a joke but I didn't want any potential confusion.


But they look like sausage tongs, that one might encounter near a grill.
No, serving tongs don't have that kind of handle or tip.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2e/Tongs2.JPG


Aren't the tongs a bit redundant?
As far as I'm aware, not all industrial work/craftsmanship require a hammer and so they're not necessarily mutually inclusive. But as far as symbolism goes, I suppose there is a bit of overlap.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Off topic, why not use tractors instead of sickles to represent the trend towards industrial farming?

Back on topic, what about under the DOTP?

[Janus]

Off topic, why not use tractors instead of sickles to represent the trend towards industrial farming?
I don't think that would blend in very well with the hammer and sickle.

[KC]

Actually the tongs represent workers in the service industry.

[Janus]

My mistake, Zampano is right. In retrospect that makes a lot more sense; I'm not sure why I was thinking industry.

[bezdomni]

Why tongs for the service industry?

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ The most basic "service" being that of grabbing bread and selling it (bread shops) - heck, you see that with some Chinese food stores with their BBQ pork. ;)

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 01:39 am
^^^ Off topic, why not use tractors instead of sickles to represent the trend towards industrial farming?

Back on topic, what about under the DOTP?
someone told me we should use a hammer and keyboard representing white collar workers lol

[Rawthentic]

Do white collar workers use hammers?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 03:11 am
Do white collar workers use hammers?
^^^ They're more prone to using calculators. ;)

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 03:56 am
^^^ The most basic "service" being that of grabbing bread and selling it (bread shops) - heck, you see that with some Chinese food stores with their BBQ pork. ;)

http://www.barbecuen.com/newsletters/images/sausage-tongs.jpg

So...Sausage Workers is actually somewhat valid? :D

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Sorry for the late response, but I recently saved some interesting works by Lenin on the subject. I'd like some input on this, from Economics And Politics In The Era Of The Dictatorship Of The Proletariat (http://marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1919/oct/30.htm):


Under capitalism the proletariat was an oppressed class, a class which had been deprived of the means of production, the only class which stood directly and completely opposed to the bourgeoisie, and therefore the only one capable of being revolutionary to the very end. Having overthrown the bourgeoisie and conquered political power, the proletariat has become the ruling class; it wields state power, it exercises control over means of production already socialised; it guides the wavering and intermediary elements and classes; it crushes the increasingly stubborn resistance of the exploiters. All these are specific tasks of the class struggle, tasks which the proletariat formerly did not and could not have set itself.