Dictatorship of the proleteriat..why?- Venezuela - Example o

[MJM]

In Venezuela right now the bourgeoisie are doing everything they can to disrupt Chavez and his legally elected government. It's an exellent example of how the ruling class will disrupt and make any real change virtually impossible. At ever turn Chavez and his plans are disrupted by the old elite trying to restore their power after Chavez won the election.
If this continues to happen Chavez will have spent all his time fighting them and their reactionary behavior, the people will lose all faith in him and then he will be voted out.
All thanks to the rich and their control over all the means of production ie. the oil industry. We as Marxist know these people have no more rights to the oil than the poor starving child in the slums the industry should be nationalised.
To me this is an example of why the DoP is necessary, only for a short period of time, without it you're forever standing on a precipice while the rich try to throw you, and the cause for the working class, off it.
So if I was Chavez I'd create a DoP and while in this stage nationalise the oil industry and all large means of production. For a period of two presidential terms- voted on at an election of course- after this a new constitution would be drawn up and voting, in whatever system decided on, would comence.

[redstar2000]

The problem is that neither Chevez nor his supporters ARE communists--a "dictatorship of the proletariat" is something that's OUTSIDE of their political universe.

In fact, I get the sense (from the BBC website) that Chavez is actually kind of BEWILDERED by the intensity of the resistance of the upper and middle classes as well as the most privileged sectors of the working class. I think he had NO IDEA that class struggle would reach the pitch that it has--in the face of what, after all, were rather modest reforms in Venezuelan capitalism. Allende in Chile provoked a similar reaction and paid for it with his life.

I offer no predictions on this one; it's "too close to call". But however it turns out, I hope that Venezuelan COMMUNISTS will learn valuable lessons about the limitations of Latin American populism...and plan accordingly.

[Miguel]

I agree with "MJM", this is a clear example of how the ruling class tries to undermine all socialisation of the soceity, but I beleve that theres more to it than just venezuelan bourgeose resistance. As always, South America is in the hands of its imperialist neighbour, the United States of America has always had it´s grip of latin america, the cuban revolution is not an isolated moment in history. The capitalist society must continue to feed on the products of a repressed working class, if it is to grow. South America has always been a great resurce for cheap exploatation. The american (USA) goverment provide support aginst the people, to slected few pro-american bourgeose, and they provide the USA with every natural resource they have. The country (in this cas Venezuela) is exploited leving the people to suffer under the coperatives like "American Fruit Company" for example (in Venuzuelas case the oil, as in the middle east). But it happens that a "nationalistic" or/and socialistic movement comes to power either by election or revolution, these movements declare their countries as belongings to the people that work them and not outsiders like the gringos. It happend in Cuba, and it is happening (now that the US is occupied with the middle east) today with a new populistic wave in South America, this is of course unexeptable, and therefore the attempts to overthrow these goverments...

[El Brujo]

You make an excellent point comrade. This is the biggest reason Ive become an authoritarian socialist, because the right will always resort to undemocratic means of obtaining power and allowing them to have their say is like giving it right to them.

The exact same thing happened in Chile 30 years ago. Allende won the presidency fair and square but then the corporate lackeys did everything possible to deliberately collapse Chile's economy in an attempt to turn the general population against him. Then, taking advantage of the situation, the right-wing military, aided by the yanks (who hypocritically claim to act on "freedom and democracy") led a bloody coup against the president and undid everything that he accomplished.

That is why, the only way to achieve true, undisrupted socialism is through a proletarian dictatorship.



(Edited by El Brujo at 3:31 pm on Dec. 31, 2002)




(Edited by El Brujo at 3:48 am on Jan. 3, 2003)

[Man of the Cause]

I personally think that Chavez is a big traitor. Sure, he wants to nationalize (some of ) the oil industry, but you can't say that a man is socialist or even worker sympathic if he uses military to attack striking workers and that's exactly what he did. I think Latin America's best and only (If you don't count Fidel Castro) worker's politician is Brazil's Lula da Silva, and he too has been quite cosy with the upper class.

[Larissa]

I am presently translating some documents about the situation in Venezuela, and what it's truly shameful is the way Chavez's opponents "cry" like little girls begging down on their knees asking the American gov to intervene and help them to oust the president they have legally elected.

There is an interesting article posted in Granma:
http://www.granma.cu/ingles/diciembre02/lu...30/1oligar.html (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/diciembre02/lu30/1oligar.html)

[Borincano]

Quote: from Man of the Cause on 3:33 am on Dec. 31, 2002
I personally think that Chavez is a big traitor. Sure, he wants to nationalize (some of ) the oil industry, but you can't say that a man is socialist or even worker sympathic if he uses military to attack striking workers and that's exactly what he did. I think Latin America's best and only (If you don't count Fidel Castro) worker's politician is Brazil's Lula da Silva, and he too has been quite cosy with the upper class.


From what I've heard, the major oil industry in Venezuela had already been nationalized, long before Chávez took power.

Also, when did he use the military to attack striking workers? Yes, he might have ordered snippers to shoot at a protest during the April 11th coup, but they were outside the Presidential home and were threatening to kill him. The orders were to shoot those who were tyring to break in, but no one was killed from the hands of the snippers. Those who died were those who were attacked by the supporters of Chávez, not by his orders. He also sent the military to take over Caracas, the capital, because he knew what was coming and the Mayor doesn't support him either. However, he didn't send the military to kill civilians like the Chinese gov't did in Tienaman Square or the military gov't in Burma or in 1968 México where the military, from the President's orders, killed over 300 student protestors. The so-called "massacres" that have taken place during the protestors have not been ordered by him or his gov't. He can't be responsible for the actions of every single supporter of his.

I don't believe Hugo Chávez Frías is a traitor to anyone, however, there are things he should've done (Keep the multi-party coalition together.) and shouldn't have done. (Constantly insults the Catholic Church and business leaders as well as pushing populism to the extreme.) However, he's probably the only hope for the poor of Venezuela and despite his declining support, (Mostly due to the break-up of the coalition from disagreements and the view that the people of Venezuela won't be happy unless they stop supporting Chávez and join the strike.) he still has the most support out of all the opposition leaders.

[Anonymous]

since wghen is lula beingcosywith the elitists? i just hope lula kills all elitists with brazilian popular milicias... that would helpthings around there....

and now that im dreaming about it he could also take theyr property and colectivize it...

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Ok first I have to clear up the myth that Chavez is not a revolutionary or a socialist or anything leftist because he doesn't create a communist nation or just decides to one day destroy his enemies just like that.The reason why he CAN'T create a communist nation is because he was elected democraticly twice and reformed the constatution to create social change and walfare but not to establish a new system,the constatution says clearly that Venezuela is a democratic nation and is governed by the laws legalized in the vote for the new constitution in 99.So If he was behind the new laws he can't just brake them like that If he had that would of made him a real traitor.That is the main reason he only shows force wen absolutly necesary because he is seting an example for the oposition and the world that one can be democratic and at the same time deeply change society for the best.

About the issue with the president's use of force I just have to say the use of force is necesary once there is a posibility of violence on a large scale mainly a protest like the one of april 11 directed at the presedential home, wich was totaly ilegal and had been planed in advance by the oposition.Also wen demonstrations agaisnt the goverment are totaly legal no one gets hurt and the milatery doesn't come to "attack" the crowd there have been many incidents but they were not ordered buy the goverment and some of them were planed by the oposition to get the goverment isolated from the international communyty.Finaly If the oposition leaders want to destroy de main industry of Venezuela PDVSA Chavez has to do something about It and If force is needed at has to be use It's for the survival of a nation.And one very important thing about the goverment use of force is that they only use riot units never live amo.

About the snipers that were said to be placed by the goverment.(I was there wen it hapened).I have to say the hole thing was part of a setup by the oposition to get Chavez out of the goverment by crating deaths.What hapened was that the snipers started to shoot at pro Chavez protesters and then the people that where there started to shoot back,at that moment some people from the oder demostration started to shoot and then it was a real fire fight.Oficialy they say that all of the deaths were of anti chavez protesters wen in reality the deaths and the wounded were on both sides.Besides documents ,tapes and other information that proove this hole thing was planned,four things stand out the first victim of the snipers was a goverment oficial loyal to Chavez,the famous image showing the pro chavez militants killing "innocent civilians" never shows at what they are shooting at for a profesional camera man It was very simple to moove the camera to the place the shots were aimed at and also in that tape they show the gunmen taking cover from something If they were only shooting at unarmed civilians there would be no need for hiding behind walls or running away from the target ¿do hunters run from deer?To this day there is no explanation why the camera man did not focus on what they were shooting at ,the truth is It was self defence.And other important fact is that contrary to the sniper theory Chavez did have a plan if the protest got dangerous It was called the "plan Avila" It was a simple plan of containning the protest and avoiding clashes between the 2 sides wen president Chavez ordered to put the plan into action the generals under his comand rebeled and gave oders to start jailing all components of the goverment and to let the PM (metropolitan police) kill any people that rebeled agaisnt te new goverment.You know the rest of the story and thanks to the people Chavez is back in power.

Now this could have been the end of the conspiracy and a new start for Venezuela but one thing went wrong the supreme court in It's majority is in with the oposition and invalidates any decision taken by the executive power that is why all of these facists are free.

The oposition has all the money all the media suport and backing from the US but It still doesn't have the people the people that fight for a better future.

About the oil industry It had been nationalized many years ago but the coruption is so big that people get paid without even working and only 30% percent of the ernnings go to the state the rest goes to the pokets of the greedy.So now the first goverment that is really doing something about It is the most hated by the rich.

The reasons why president insults the church and other sectors is because the openly suport a coup and lash out on a dayly basis agaisnt the goverment.But in reality a part of the church is with Chavez ,what this shows is that even for the venezuelan church political interests are first.
The important thing is to recognize that Chavez has made mistakes like any leader does but this never can be confused with being a traitor.One of his mistakes wich he is now trying to correct is the fact that he was to permisive with the oposition leaders and now he is starting to show carecter.

Chavez's goverment is basicly being blasted because of this decisions:
Not doing what the Bush administrations wants or suport It decisions.
Creating strong relations with Cuba ,helping with oil and creating mutual asistence agreements.
Taking land fron rich landownres and giving It to farmers
Protecting local agricultural productions and giving it to the hands of the one who cultivate not the foreign companies
Giving more rights and priorety to the poor that make up more than half of the population of Venezuela.
Puting people of color in goverment positions ,this is something totaly outrageous for the white minority that use to own the political landscape
creating health plans and infrastructure for the poorest sector.
Why does this make the oposition mad? Well IT's because It doesn't stop at a promise It actualy gets done and this makes the rich sector of the Venezuelan population crazy because they use to have all the atention and govermet fonds.

This is why the oposition uses all of It's methods to destroy the movement THEY ARE LOOSING PROFET! that's all.

Finally I think president Chavez deserves credit for how he has influenced latin america and the world he had his part to enable de victories of leftists presidents such as Lucio Gutierrez and Lula who both had said they have great admiration towards him.

So why is Chavez still in power is not because he's a bloody dictator or a traitor no,It'.s because his finally taken care of the majority of the venezuelan population the POOR.And If you don't belive this look at a pro Chavez demonstration and and a antichavez one.You will be suprised to see the huge gap between the two sectors.

QUE VIVA LA REVOLUCION BOLIVARIANA!

[Larissa]

Guardia Bolivariano,

I fully agree with you and support the Venezuelan revolution. As you clearly stated, Chavez in no traitor. He is fighting back the US supported opposition in the most fair way. Long live Chavez and the Venezuelan revolution!!

[TXsocialist]

1st. I support Chavez and his comrados trying to make change in bougeois-controled Venezuela.

This is prime example why a Democratic revolution is impossible in Bougeoisies such as America - The capitalist class will not simply hand over their spoils...

If they're reluctant in a small sub-colony of the international bourgeoisie, imagine what they'd do to stop us HERE...

[Guardia Bolivariano]

The problem with bloody or authoritarian leftist regimes is that killing your enemies only makes them stronger by allowing them to seek help from the US and other countrys that are just waiting for an excuse to invade or sabotage a countrys political and economic system.Bloody revolutions had their time and place but I really doubt they would help in present day latin america we have a new reality and we have to show that we can evolve our theorys to a higher level.For example in colombia the leftist guerrillas have 40 years fighting and they haven't achieved much in fact some units have gone corupt they murder civilians and get money from drug cartels.But the Venezuelan goverment has achieved more in 3 years than all of the guerrilla warfare of the ELN and FARC .Force has to be used wen extremely necesary. Fidel's guerrilla force was fighting a right wing dictator not the civilian population.Every situation has to be analyzed and treated totaly diferent from past situations.This is the goverment makes diferent decisions from past regimes with similar goals.Finaly power is sickening is one uses force every time for any reason It will end badly.Never forget the leftist regime of Cambodia that went totaly crazy after beating the french.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from Larissa on 1:43 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
Guardia Bolivariano,

I fully agree with you and support the Venezuelan revolution. As you clearly stated, Chavez in no traitor. He is fighting back the US supported opposition in the most fair way. Long live Chavez and the Venezuelan revolution!!


Thanks Larissa you're the greatest:)

[Larissa]

"...killing your enemies only makes them stronger by allowing them to seek help from the US and other countrys that are just waiting for an excuse to invade or sabotage a countrys political and economic system."

I don't know if I have mentioned this before, but about a month ago I heard Kissinger on CNN saying: "It's not that we consider ourselves the world's police, it is those countries who are asking for our help and intervention" (the perfect pretext) ... yet, he was dam right about the crying bourgeois seeking help from the US.

This is exactly what must be avoided.

[Anonymous]

uhhhh not to bring you down fellows, but chavezis only a leftist president, he is still capitalist, he may be doing something good forthe country, but still he isnt socialist...

he is rather patience, for ifi was in hisplaceiwouldmobilize allthe army to crush the rebeled factions of the army taht are suportingthe burguase...

[redstar2000]

Whenever I hear people talk about "killing" in a revolution, I am reminded of a quote from Mark Twain.

"People anguish over the 4 years of terror that the French people inflicted on the aristocrats; they are strangely silent over the THOUSAND YEARS of terror that the aristocrats inflicted on the French people."

My own opinion: the balance between violent and peaceful means is up to the people making the revolution. We can fairly criticize the POLITICS of revolutions in other countries...but those who are THERE are the best ones to decide on matters of the moment.

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 4:57 am on Jan. 15, 2003)

[Larissa]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 8:56 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
Whenever I hear people talk about "killing" in a revolution, I am reminded of a quote from Mark Twain.
My own opinion: the balance between violent and peaceful means is up to the people making the revolution. We can fairly criticize the POLITICS of revolutions in other countries...but those who are THERE are the best ones to decide on matters of the moment.

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 4:57 am on Jan. 15, 2003)


Like my husband uses to say (quite frequently) "Please, do not try to be more Cuban than the Cubans" - (He is a Cuban journalist) This is something he says when some people try to show how much they "know" about Cuban political affairs but have never been to Cuba.

It is true. Each of us can give an opinion, but in the end, those whose actually have the real-life experience have a better picture than those who (with the best or worst intentions) can comment.

Guardia Bolivariano is for sure the one who knows far better than any of us about what is going on in Venezuela, for instance.

(Edited by Larissa at 9:11 pm on Jan. 14, 2003)

[redstar2000]

Larissa, your husband raises a, shall we say, delicate point.

When IS it legitimate for revolutionaries in other countries to criticize a revolution in a particular country and what KINDS of criticism are legitimate?

For example, I think it was an absolutely AWFUL idea for Fidel Castro to invite the Pope to visit Cuba...I think all it accomplished was to give comfort and encouragement to the enemies of the Cuban Revolution. Is THAT a legitimate criticism?

On the other hand, I once attended a small "secret" meeting of Berkeley "revolutionaries" back in 1975 who were "planning" the details of how communists could seize power in Portugal...right down to which military units could be counted on for support, etc. It was one of my most bizarre political experiences...these kids were thousands of miles from Portugal, did not speak or read the language, knew no one personally in that country, etc. Harmless, of course, but the capacity for human fantasy was quite a bit larger than I previously thought.

Sometimes, it's a really TOUGH call; it's a lot easier to be "ultra-revolutionary" when you are not THERE and not having to face immediate and urgent political problems that must be solved at once.

I think we should be SLOW to criticize revolutions in other countries. We should learn as much as we can, visit that place if it's possible, and think carefully about exactly what we're criticizing and why.

And we should not PLAY with revolution as some kind of fantasy or video game. These are real people with real lives...not action figures in a "Marxist" theme park.

And having said all that, sometimes criticism is NECESSARY. :cool:

PS: I shouldn't have to add this, but maybe I better anyway. Whatever criticism we have of a revolution in another country is NOT for the bourgeois press...under NO circumstances would I EVER discuss Cuba in the pages of the Miami Herald lest I unintentionally give ammunition to the exiles (worms) that live in Miami.

[Larissa]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 12:06 pm on Jan. 15, 2003
Larissa, your husband raises a, shall we say, delicate point.
Actually, he was not referring to those who don't have common sense o know what they are talking about, but he gets kind of pissed off when he hears "brave" ppl trying to set up a revolution just because they think is cool.

He has a great site (www.cubagrande.com) and he receives lots of irritating messages from the Miami worms. Sons of Cubans that now live in Miami and have never been to Cuba and dare to critize the Revolution.

On the other hand, he met (here in Buenos Aires) many of my leftists friends who (some of them) think they know all about Cuba and also think they can set a revolution imitating exactly what Fidel and Che did.

I think that we can aid other countries to build their revolution too, I personally support the Venezuelan Bolivarian Revolution and I have never been to Venezuela myself.

So my point was, we can criticize/support/etc. other countries recv even when we don´t live there, but those who do live there definitely have a more direct experience.

Please, don´t get me wrong, I´m not claiming it is not legitimate to criticize and my husband's point of view is somehow reflect in your phrase: "it's a lot easier to be "ultra-revolutionary" when you are not THERE and not having to face immediate and urgent political problems that must be solved at once."

:-)

PS: However, nothing will stop us from starting/supporting a revolution (strongly armed or "peacefully" subtle)

[redstar2000]

The opposition to the Bolivarian Revolution is clearly getting desparate. Their latest idea, according to the BBC News site, is a gigantic march "FOR JESUS AND MARY".

What a surprise! :cool:

[Guardia Bolivariano]

opposition=right wing bullshit

That's about all there is to know.;)

[Nateddi]

Hi Guardia

Are your parents members of the opposition?

I ask you because you have internet access in venezuela. Venezuela is a third world country, with a very small affluent class. I can understand that it is normal for some people of that class to be fair to the rest, to be socialists, as you are. However from what I can picture, 99% of upper class venezuelans hate chavez. Whats your family's social status and opinion on Chavez?

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Ok first I am happy to say that my parents are menbers of the revolution ,believe It or not parents can be cool:wink: .My dad is a socialist he was part of the popular army of Venezuela in the 60's wen our guerrilla force and some of the army tried to do the same thing that Castro had done in Cuba.Sadly that social movement was beaten and my dad decided to continue his studies.He graduated and entered the diplomatic arena he was ambassador to Romania in the soviet times.He is the man who introduced me to communism and the reason why i have internet and other commoditys is because my dad new how to administrate his salary.Not because we exploit and steel like other bastards I know:angry:

[Larissa]

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 8:02 pm on Jan. 16, 2003
Ok first I am happy to say that my parents are menbers of the revolution ,believe It or not parents can be cool:wink: .My dad is a socialist he was part of the popular army of Venezuela in the 60's wen our guerrilla force and some of the army tried to do the same thing that Castro had done in Cuba.Sadly that social movement was beaten and my dad decided to continue his studies.He graduated and entered the diplomatic arena he was ambassador to Romania in the soviet times.He is the man who introduced me to communism and the reason why i have internet and other commoditys is because my dad new how to administrate his salary.Not because we exploit and steel like other bastards I know:angry:

Cool and interesting! Pls keep us posted about what going on in Venezuela, all I get here is biased media info (right-wing, pro-usa, of course)

[Guardia Bolivariano]

[/quote]

Cool and interesting! Pls keep us posted about what going on in Venezuela, all I get here is biased media info (right-wing, pro-usa, of course)[/quote]

Of course I will ,all you need to do is ask and in your case pronounce "yo" a lot of tmes I love that accent. :biggrin:

(Edited by Guardia Bolivariano at 11:34 pm on Jan. 16, 2003)

[Larissa]

then u should hear from me something like "sho" :biggrin:

BTW, is anyone u know going to attend the World Social Forum in Brazil on Jan 23?

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from Larissa on 11:50 pm on Jan. 16, 2003
then u should hear from me something like "sho" :biggrin:

BTW, is anyone u know going to attend the World Social Forum in Brazil on Jan 23?

Yes I do but I can't renember their names they are more friends of my dad than me but they're going.

[Nateddi]

Wow guardia,

It's very nice to hear your story. I'm glad to hear some of the intelligencia are supportive of the bolivarian revolution. best of luck to you comrade, we need more venezolano such as yourself.

viva chavez y viva la revolucion bolivariana

[Anonymous]

World Social Forum in Brazil will be great, with lula in the power they will have all the conditions todo soemthing worthy there....