Liberals! - Liberals!

[canikickit]

Marked by generosity : OPENHANDED <a liberal giver> b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way <a liberal meal> c : AMPLE, FULL

5 : BROAD-MINDED; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms


People try to write opinions off as those of "liberals"!

I am liberal. I am happy to be liberal. This is what the word liberal means to me. There are other connotations, but I do not apply them to myself, and I feel when oppressive idiots accuse people of being liberals, the above would be an appropriate definition.

I am not a liberal. I am a person.

I am tired of people's attempt to defame by use of the word liberal. Stand up and be proud to be liberal! Shout it out your windows! I am liberal! I am liberal! I am liberal!

If you are not liberal, you are a fool.

[BasementAddix]

Im not a liberal...but im not a fool either...i think when people refer to liberals...they usually mean the ultra liberals...extremists...

[Geddan]

Well, liberalism means also free trade and free market, and as small interference by the state in the liberals trades. This of course sound very good but it has it downsides. Since the liberal factory owners are allowed to do what they want, these downsides are pretty serious.

The liberals speak for free trade, and free trade in the underdeveloped countries such as most african countries and some asian countries means to exploit the countries and people for profit which goes to liberal pockets. Thousands of people die every day because of the globalisation and the neoliberalism which rules the world. For 20 cent a day a kid produces Nike shoes they later sell for 100 dollars, and they produce quite a lot of shoes each day. The liberal factory owners are effectively slavers.

When liberalism whas new, it also meant that the factory owners could decide the circumstanses of work in the factory, and they mostly paid out minimum wages, and because of the liberalism, the state wouldn't interfere with this. The workers' bad situation meant shit to them.

So I wouldn't be proud to call myself a liberal...a libertarian socialist would fit, but not a liberal! Liberalism equals uncontrolled capitalist exploitation of the world. Liberalism equals liberty...for those who can pay for it.

[RedScorpion]

Yes, liberalism goes hand in hand with oppression and often ends in uncontrolled capitalism (like in America)
I'm not a liberal but I'm not a fool either.

[redstar2000]

Canikickit, it's very tricky to operate with your own PERSONAL definitions of common political labels...at the very least, you risk being constantly misunderstood.

For example, back in the 1960s, if you had said you were "proud to be a liberal", people would have read that to mean you SUPPORTED U.S. imperialism in Vietnam--THAT was the "liberal" position then (Lyndon Johnson, Hubert Humphrey, etc.).

It's not easy to tell what "liberalism" means in 21st century America...probably something pretty close to the right wing of German Social Democracy--a modest welfare state at home and the usual imperialist aggression abroad. It also implies, of course, some support for the rights of minorities, women, gays, etc. but nothing "too far out".

Of course, your difficulty is faced by everyone in politics; whatever you call yourself, there's some wretched historical example in the background just waiting to embarrass you. We communists certainly have OUR share of living fossils that lack the decency to get back in their tombs where they belong!

[canikickit]

Like I said, I'm not a liberal. To be liberal is not a political idealogy, it's a state of mind.

i.e. someone who thinks for themselves and is not bound by traditional, or popular ways of thinking. I am not assocciating myself with some sort of bullshit political faction. As Red Celtic has said before elsewhere, liberal is a term dashed out by both right and left wing alike, simply to discredit somebody's thinking.

I never had to deal with a liberal until I came to this site, until then I had always associated it with the definitions I gave above.

I am not talking about any "ism". Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough. Perhaps all of you are bound by "authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms ". You tell me.

[Geddan]

Well, if you call yourself a National Socialist, you will always be thought of as a Nazi, even if you're just a socialist with a love of your country, so I guess you must find another definition since everyone will think of you as a "liberalism liberal".

The latin meanings of the words don't have that much depth as the nowaday ideologies require. For example, anarchy means "without master" or something similar, and can thus be understood to be an ideology with chaos pumping through it's veins, although anarchism, as per the nowaday definition, is the best ideology (the last step of communism is anarchy...and I am a communist, thus I am partly an anarchist too) which requires a lot of structure and organisation (but not hierarchy) to work.


(Edited by Geddan at 8:27 pm on Dec. 5, 2002)

[canikickit]

I am not a politician. To be liberal is not a political idealogy. What do I need another definition for? When these people, such as Mazdk, and Thine Stalin "accuse" others of being just liberals, they are not talking about liberalism as a capitalist idealogy, they think it is not good enough to be free thinking. They think you have to affiliate yourself with some political shitstem.

I am not a liberal. I am liberal.

[Revolution Hero]

liberalism, as political conception, is the reactionary bourgeois ideology. liberals are the enemies of the leftist movement, particularly they are the enemies of COMMUNISTS.
Each leftist on the che-lives must be proud of being anti- capitalist. I am proud of being COMMUNIST and I criticize the reactionary political teachings, such as liberalism.
Canickickit, frankly speaking I can’t call you COMRADE, as you don’t deserve it. Well, you can be proud of this, too. As I have figured out, you, canikick, don’t have any political preferences. Then , wtf are you doing here?
You have spent enough time on the boards to chose an ideology you can agree with. Be whoever, but be leftist, and be proud of THIS FACT!

[lifetrnal]

Express,

You think ultra-liberals are extremists? Where is it that you think you are, my friend. :-)

[canikickit]

Revolution Hero,

wow, you didn't understand anything I said.

I am leftist, and I am proud of this fact. I don't want to be associated with any partisan faction, thanks all the same.


liberalism, as political conception, is the reactionary bourgeois ideology. liberals are the enemies of the leftist movement, particularly they are the enemies of COMMUNISTS.

I distinctly stated that I was not expressing any type of political affiliation here. But you have apparently decided to ignore all that and react.


As I have figured out, you, canikick, don’t have any political preferences. Then , wtf are you doing here?


What sort of a genius are you? How did you reach these conclusions? What the fuck I am doing here is engaging in discussion with like minded individuals, many of who, have the same political preferences as me.

I had an ideology long before I came here, and it hasn't changed much at all since I have been here. I do not need to "chose" and ideology from the information I recieved here.

Do you consider yourself broad minded and generous?

(Edited by canikickit at 9:20 pm on Dec. 5, 2002)

[antieverything]

Ignore him. He thinks that anyone who refuses to worship Marx, Lenin, and Stalin is anti-Communist.

Of course he doesn't think about the interests of the working class or of humanity as a whole.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from canikickit on 7:18 am on Dec. 6, 2002
Revolution Hero,

wow, you didn't understand anything I said.

I am leftist, and I am proud of this fact. I don't want to be associated with any partisan faction, thanks all the same.


liberalism, as political conception, is the reactionary bourgeois ideology. liberals are the enemies of the leftist movement, particularly they are the enemies of COMMUNISTS.

I distinctly stated that I was not expressing any type of political affiliation here. But you have apparently decided to ignore all that and react.


As I have figured out, you, canikick, don’t have any political preferences. Then , wtf are you doing here?


What sort of a genius are you? How did you reach these conclusions? What the fuck I am doing here is engaging in discussion with like minded individuals, many of who, have the same political preferences as me.

I had an ideology long before I came here, and it hasn't changed much at all since I have been here. I do not need to "chose" and ideology from the information I recieved here.

Do you consider yourself broad minded and generous?

(Edited by canikickit at 9:20 pm on Dec. 5, 2002)



Quote:” wow, you didn't understand anything I said.”

LOL.
Actually, I did.

Quote:” I am leftist, and I am proud of this fact. I don't want to be associated with any partisan faction, thanks all the same.”

Sorry, haven’t noticed you participating in any political or theoretical discussions , yet. You call yourself leftist. That is OK with me. But I can’t respect you until I will know who exactly you are: anarchist, anarcho-communist, communist, socialist. Democratical – socialist etc.
See, there are many ideologies and each of them contradicts to the others. Who are you, canikickit? I want to know, so I will call you comrade no matter which ideology you prefer. Just say it!

Quote: “I distinctly stated that I was not expressing any type of political affiliation here.”

I had understood you perfectly, I just decided to use the moment to make you think about your political preferences.

Quote:” What the fuck I am doing here is engaging in discussion with like minded individuals, many of who, have the same political preferences as me.”

Tell me exactly , what you do prefer, to say : “I am leftist!” IS NOT ENOUGH. And if you are LEFTIST, then you should be proud of being leftist MORE than being proud of being liberal, no matter what meaning you give to the latter.

Quote:” Do you consider yourself broad minded and generous?”

I will leave this one without an answer.

[canikickit]

Firstly, just because I am proud to have a liberal mind does not make me more proud of that than a leftist.

I haven't done a huge amount of research into the field of political ideologies. It is not something which particularily interests me.
You won't call me comrade until I put a certain label upon myself? Ridiculous; just read the things I say, then make your decision based on that. I am more complex than can be summed up in two hyphenated words. I think communist is the closest label, but I also favour certain elements of anarchism, socialism, democracy, marxism, among others.


Tell me exactly , what you do prefer, to say : “I am leftist!” IS NOT ENOUGH.

Enough for what? I am not going to simplify myself to satisfy your desperation to label.

Would you rather I claimed to be something I'm not? Something I don't really know that much about (as I'm sure you agree many do).

Why do you feel I must define myself in one statement? Like I have said, I am not a politician, politics is not my premier interest. If I ever feel the desire to study further on the subject, I will, but for now, I have things which are more interesting to me. Of course you will probably view this as a lack of dedication, but why should I dedicate myself to politics? People have different paths in life, and I do not want politics to be mine.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from canikickit on 8:11 am on Dec. 6, 2002
Firstly, just because I am proud to have a liberal mind does not make me more proud of that than a leftist.

I haven't done a huge amount of research into the field of political ideologies. It is not something which particularily interests me.
You won't call me comrade until I put a certain label upon myself? Ridiculous; just read the things I say, then make your decision based on that. I am more complex than can be summed up in two hyphenated words. I think communist is the closest label, but I also favour certain elements of anarchism, socialism, democracy, marxism, among others.


Tell me exactly , what you do prefer, to say : “I am leftist!” IS NOT ENOUGH.

Enough for what? I am not going to simplify myself to satisfy your desperation to label.

Would you rather I claimed to be something I'm not? Something I don't really know that much about (as I'm sure you agree many do).

Why do you feel I must define myself in one statement? Like I have said, I am not a politician, politics is not my premier interest. If I ever feel the desire to study further on the subject, I will, but for now, I have things which are more interesting to me. Of course you will probably view this as a lack of dedication, but why should I dedicate myself to politics? People have different paths in life, and I do not want politics to be mine.

Quote:” I think communist is the closest label, but I also favour certain elements of anarchism, socialism, democracy, marxism, among others.”

First of all, it is not label, but something you do believe in.
I see that communism is the closest to you.
Marxism is COMMUNIST ideology.
Socialism is the first stage of COMMUNISM.
COMMUNISM is the TRUE DEMOCRACY.
There is no state in COMMUNISM and that is the dream of anarchists.
So, can you call yourself COMMUNIST now? Of course, you can’t. You should learn more, my friend!

Quote:” Enough for what?”

If you chose yourself an ideology then this will be enough to consider yourself TRUE leftist.

Quote:” If I ever feel the desire to study further on the subject, I will, but for now”

I hope you will.

Quote:” why should I dedicate myself to politics?”

You should dedicate yourself to COMMUNISM in order to help other people.

Quote:” People have different paths in life”

And it depends on you, which one you would chose. Do you have the aim? What is the meaning of your life? Have you ever asked yourself such questions?

[canikickit]

Do you have the aim? What is the meaning of your life? Have you ever asked yourself such questions?


Of course I do, and of course I have. What sort of questions are these? Why do you feel you must demonstate superiority to me? It only serves to lower my opinion of you.

[Revolution Hero]

You got me wrong. I just want to know what is your aim and what you think is the meaning of your life.

[canikickit]

You come across as condesending. It doesn't really work out too good, if I don't feel you are in any way superior to me.

I'm still living, and still learning, I don't need to adopt an ideology to know whether or not I agree with something.
I've often seen you arguing with people about the true meaning of different ideologies (such as in the "For the moderators, a suggestion" thread), I don't know whether you were right or wrong in what you said, but I'm not one of these people who reads a bit of history and a few articles and then profess myself to be a marxist, leninist, anarchist or whatever. That's probably why you haven't seen me participating in any of those "political or theoretical discussions" you mentioned earlier - because I don't claim to be something I'm not.

Why, why do I have to suddenly choose an ideology to become a true leftist? I'm sure you are aware of the meaning of the word "left" (in the context we are speaking of), well here it is anyway:


a : those professing views usually characterized by desire to reform or overthrow the established order especially in politics and usually advocating change in the name of the greater freedom or well-being of the common man b : a radical as distinguished from a conservative position


Now, can you please explain to me exactly why I need to adhere to some specific ideology to become a "true" leftist?

I don't know about you, but I consider myself intelligent enough to stand on my own grounds and form my own, concrete opinion based on what I see and hear everyday in this reality. I will study and become more familiar with all the ideologies, in so much as it holds my interest, but until I decide that I wish to catagorise, and generalise myself, I will claim no label.

I advocate a distinct change to the current system, I believe a system where the resources of the earth are in the control of the people is the fairest and most just.

I do not intend to become a politician, so I fail to see why I should study further into most of these matters. I do wish to know everything, but one must prioritise in this life.

My aim is to work in the sound industry. The meaning of my life is to live.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from antieverything on 7:38 am on Dec. 6, 2002
Ignore him. He thinks that anyone who refuses to worship Marx, Lenin, and Stalin is anti-Communist.

Of course he doesn't think about the interests of the working class or of humanity as a whole.




Quote:” Ignore him.”

Two kinds of people follow this strategy:
1.Ignorant;
2.Those who can’t debate or have already lost the ideological struggle.

BTW, have you replied on my post at the thread “Communist Party, as the leader of the people?”

Quote:” He thinks that anyone who refuses to worship Marx, Lenin, and Stalin is anti-Communist.”

First of all I don’t like the word worship.
Secondly, I do think that TRUE COMMUNIST should agree and support Marxism- Leninism.


Quote:” Of course he doesn't think about the interests of the working class or of humanity as a whole.”

Damn, and you are the liberator of the oppressed humanity!
How do you dare to say something for me? How do you dare to judge me? You don’t know, who I am and what I do, then just SHUT UP, if you don’t have any rational thoughts.(you will lose the debate anyway).

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from canikickit on 10:18 am on Dec. 7, 2002
You come across as condesending. It doesn&#39;t really work out too good, if I don&#39;t feel you are in any way superior to me.

I&#39;m still living, and still learning, I don&#39;t need to adopt an ideology to know whether or not I agree with something.
I&#39;ve often seen you arguing with people about the true meaning of different ideologies (such as in the "For the moderators, a suggestion" thread), I don&#39;t know whether you were right or wrong in what you said, but I&#39;m not one of these people who reads a bit of history and a few articles and then profess myself to be a marxist, leninist, anarchist or whatever. That&#39;s probably why you haven&#39;t seen me participating in any of those "political or theoretical discussions" you mentioned earlier - because I don&#39;t claim to be something I&#39;m not.

Why, why do I have to suddenly choose an ideology to become a true leftist? I&#39;m sure you are aware of the meaning of the word "left" (in the context we are speaking of), well here it is anyway:


a : those professing views usually characterized by desire to reform or overthrow the established order especially in politics and usually advocating change in the name of the greater freedom or well-being of the common man b : a radical as distinguished from a conservative position


Now, can you please explain to me exactly why I need to adhere to some specific ideology to become a "true" leftist?

I don&#39;t know about you, but I consider myself intelligent enough to stand on my own grounds and form my own, concrete opinion based on what I see and hear everyday in this reality. I will study and become more familiar with all the ideologies, in so much as it holds my interest, but until I decide that I wish to catagorise, and generalise myself, I will claim no label.

I advocate a distinct change to the current system, I believe a system where the resources of the earth are in the control of the people is the fairest and most just.

I do not intend to become a politician, so I fail to see why I should study further into most of these matters. I do wish to know everything, but one must prioritise in this life.

My aim is to work in the sound industry. The meaning of my life is to live.


Compare and analyze:
Quote:” I don&#39;t need to adopt an ideology to know whether or not I agree with something.”

and

Quote:” I&#39;ve often seen you arguing with people about the true meaning of different ideologies……I don&#39;t know whether you were right or wrong in what you said”

Your first statement can be interpreted in two ways:
1.You can agree with some kind of theoretical statement without knowing the base of this exact theory.
2. You don’t want to agree with anything, when it comes to the ideology or political theory.

Your second statement doesn’t need to be interpreted, so my conclusion follows:
You just don’t want to know whether somebody is right or wrong.( in this specific case) If my conclusion is correct, then it will be also correct to say that you don’t want to know the truth (no matter what truth is) when it comes to the history, politics or theoretical discussions.
Please, try to get me right, I am sure that you have your personal opinion and can judge, who is right or wrong in the daily life; believe me politics is the same, if you know the rules and main principles of a certain political trend, then, just like knowing the beliefs, values and laws of a society you live in, you will be able to understand who is right and who is wrong.

Quote: “I&#39;m not one of these people who reads a bit of history and a few articles and then profess myself to be a marxist, leninist, anarchist or whatever”

You are a lucky one, then. It is really GREAT that you are not one of them&#33; (no sarcasm at all).
You know I always feel sorry for such kind of people. They read “a bit of history” and they think that they know all the World History, they read “a few articles” and works on socialism, anarchy or whatever and they think that they are true leftists. I can’t support it, really.
If one wants to be a specialist in one sphere, then this person should be a specialist in other spheres, which are rival to the sphere he/she wants to be a specialist in. If one want to be a true revolutionary anti- capitalist, then this person should study all of the different trends of the leftist movement and only then to chose, which one he/she would prefer. Then, this preferred ideology should be studied in depth. So, if you think to step on the revolutionary way, try to follow my advice.

Quote:” I&#39;m sure you are aware of the meaning of the word "left" (in the context we are speaking of)”

LOL.

Quote:” Why, why do I have to suddenly choose an ideology to become a true leftist?”

The definition, you mentioned, perfectly answers on your question.
According to this definition a leftist is a person who desire to reform or overthrow the established order ESPECIALLY IN POLITICS. Don’t we use the word “left” or “leftist” in political context?
Back to the definition, leftist advocate change in the name of the greater freedom or well-being of the common man. Therefore, leftist have to know the specific ideology, according to which he/she will act, leftist need to know at least fundamental theoretical knowledge, in order to know how to reach “ a greater freedom or well- being of the common man.”

Quote:” I consider myself intelligent enough to stand on my own grounds and form my own, concrete opinion based on what I see and hear everyday in this reality”

Do you want to create your own theory? Sounds, pretty interesting. But, why do you want to invent bicycle, if it had been already invented? What you can do is just to make it better…

Quote:” I do not intend to become a politician, so I fail to see why I should study further into most of these matters.”

OK, then how would you prove your leftist beliefs?

Quote: “My aim is to work in the sound industry. The meaning of my life is to live.”

I am not surprised.

[canikickit]

"I am not surprised"

Good, you see I don&#39;t particularily have any ambitions in the political sphere.

Your first statement can be interpreted in two ways:
1.You can agree with some kind of theoretical statement without knowing the base of this exact theory.
2. You don’t want to agree with anything, when it comes to the ideology or political theory.

What I mean is that, if I read up on American foreign policy, I do not need to know the theory behind capitalism to know that I disagree with the majority of their tactics.
I didn&#39;t mean that to be misinterpreted as referring to political theories.

"I don&#39;t need to adopt an ideology to know whether or not I agree with something" (that&#39;s a quote from me, by the way)

Obviously to disagree with an ideology I would have to understand that.
You get me? I hope you agree with me on this point, now.


You just don’t want to know whether somebody is right or wrong.( in this specific case) If my conclusion is correct, then it will be also correct to say that you don’t want to know the truth (no matter what truth is) when it comes to the history, politics or theoretical discussions.

Well, not exactly, to be honest, I do have a great thirst for knowledge. i wish to know everything. An impossible task, I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll agree, so one must prioritise.


If one want to be a true revolutionary anti- capitalist, then this person should study all of the different trends of the leftist movement and only then to chose, which one he/she would prefer. Then, this preferred ideology should be studied in depth. So, if you think to step on the revolutionary way, try to follow my advice.

Indeed, your advice is truly sound. But like I&#39;ve said, I do not believe this to be the path set for me. I would, and will support people, and increase my knowledge on the subject as much as possible (which is why I do read a lot of your theoretical/historical debates, but do not partake, for reasons mentioned elsewhere).

I don&#39;t feel the need to prove my leftist beliefs.

You no doubt feel I am not committed enough.


(Edited by canikickit at 8:25 pm on Dec. 7, 2002)

[Revolution Hero]

People make their future at the present. It is up to you which path you chose, but you should always remember that the oppressed probably need YOUR help…..

[canikickit]

Indeed, I agree, I'm glad we had this little chat.

[Invader Zim]

When looking at this page i saw the phrase "extream liberalism" ARE YOU ALL RETARDS LIBERALISM IS THE OPPERSIT OF EXTREAMISM. Also if liberalism had not been around communism would never have been born. A liberal is just a person who likes to compromise to find an ideal solution, open to compromise, a far better view to take than "extream" communism. But dont get me wrong im no liberal but i certainly would not call my self a communism if it means i have to slag off perfectly valid opinions of people such as canikickit. As it happens im a left wing democratic socialist asginst revolution and for fair election. But in a fair left wing socialist atmosphere. This means you gat the best of socialism and democracy.

[canikickit]

I'm not a liberal.

I just find it ridiculous the way people like Mazdak and Thine Stalin decide to dismiss people's opinions because they are "only" liberals. I would rather people be liberal than conservative. A liberal person (as opposed to a liberal, as I keep having to stress for some reason) is someone who is more open minded and in favour of the right to self determination for individuals.