SNP won the Scottish Elections!

[Goatse]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6620905.stm

Only by a single seat though...

While they're better than Labour, it's only the Scottish Parliament so they don't really have much power... and they're just nationalist liberals... but still, better than the Tories or Labour.

[welshred]

My county in is totally under the tories!!! :o

[Whitten]

Its been expected for months, they're claims of independence are BS though, the Scotish Parliament doesnt have the power to call referendum's, and Westminster sure as hell arn't going to.

[A.J.]

Apparently those degenerate smelly marajauna-smoking trotskyite hippies the SSP lost every single one of their seats. They recieved even less votes than Scargill's SLP!!! :lol:


Great news from a strategical point of view :)

[Andy Bowden]

Except that from a strategical point of view they were confused Labour voters, not conscious Stalinists. The SLP polled 14% in a constituency where the LP candidate did not stand, and have about 3 members in Glasgow.

Its good to see Labour get a kicking, and hopefully on some issues like Trident the SNP will be marginally better. But its still a complete disaster for the Left, with neither the SSP or Solidarity picking up any MSPs and only holding a councillor each.

[A.J.]

er, I couldn't give a rat's ass about the SLP.


Try again.

[Andy Bowden]

Then why did you say their result was "great news from a strategical point of view" :wacko:

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by Andy [email protected] 04, 2007 06:16 pm
Except that from a strategical point of view they were confused Labour voters, not conscious Stalinists. The SLP polled 14% in a constituency where the LP candidate did not stand, and have about 3 members in Glasgow.

Its good to see Labour get a kicking, and hopefully on some issues like Trident the SNP will be marginally better. But its still a complete disaster for the Left, with neither the SSP or Solidarity picking up any MSPs and only holding a councillor each.
I think the left in Scotland made itself look ridiculous over the in-fighting and split last year. Tommy Sheridan's ego is a major factor in precipitating this 'disaster'. The Christian party scored better than the SSP and Solidarity, thats shocking.

[Goatse]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 06:05 pm
Its been expected for months, they're claims of independence are BS though, the Scotish Parliament doesnt have the power to call referendum's, and Westminster sure as hell arn't going to.
I doubt they could do much without a majority, and only a one seat advantage over Labour...

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 06:05 pm
Its been expected for months, they're claims of independence are BS though, the Scotish Parliament doesnt have the power to call referendum's, and Westminster sure as hell arn't going to.
The Scottish Parliament does have the power to call a referendum, what would be the point in the SNP contesting the elections if this wasn't the case!
Whether the SNP can secure enough support in the parliament for a referendum is another matter. The pro-union parties will block the referendum, its not going to happen.

[Goatse]

Related comment/question: Would it be correct to call the SNP racist, by the following logic:

1. The SNP want to make Scotland independent because it would be better off without the United Kingdom. (Whether or not this is the case is beside the point.)
2. Therefore, they want to make things better for Scottish people.
3. This means that things would get worse for other people left in the United Kingdom
4. By this reasoning, they class the needs of Scottish people higher than that of other British people.
5. Therefore, they are racist.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 06:05 pm
Its been expected for months, they're claims of independence are BS though, the Scotish Parliament doesnt have the power to call referendum's, and Westminster sure as hell arn't going to.
Actually it can call referendums on whatever it pleases. They just don't hold effect. But if Scotland were to vote for indeendence it would put the London Government in an awkward position to say the least.

Anyway terrible news regarding the left vote. But no matter, parliament was of little use to us anyway and we can still campaign on the streets every bit as much as we always have, and at any rate we will be back.

[Goatse]

Originally posted by Demogorgon+May 04, 2007 07:09 pm--> (Demogorgon @ May 04, 2007 07:09 pm)
[email protected] 04, 2007 06:05 pm
Its been expected for months, they're claims of independence are BS though, the Scotish Parliament doesnt have the power to call referendum's, and Westminster sure as hell arn't going to.
Actually it can call referendums on whatever it pleases. They just don't hold effect. But if Scotland were to vote for indeendence it would put the London Government in an awkward position to say the least.

Anyway terrible news regarding the left vote. But no matter, parliament was of little use to us anyway and we can still campaign on the streets every bit as much as we always have, and at any rate we will be back. [/b]
Back? I'm sorry? Are you trying to imply that Labour was leftist?

[UndergroundConnexion]

who gives a shit about national liberals or soemthing, at least they are getting schotland away from the semi dictature england is becoming. I'd suggest you all read Tariq Ali' new book "rough music".

[Goatse]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 07:47 pm
who gives a shit about national liberals or soemthing, at least they are getting schotland away from the semi dictature england is becoming. I'd suggest you all read Tariq Ali' new book "rough music".
What difference does it make, though? Who cares if your masters are waving the Scottish flag or the British flag?

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by Goatse+May 04, 2007 07:20 pm--> (Goatse @ May 04, 2007 07:20 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 07:09 pm

[email protected] 04, 2007 06:05 pm
Its been expected for months, they're claims of independence are BS though, the Scotish Parliament doesnt have the power to call referendum's, and Westminster sure as hell arn't going to.
Actually it can call referendums on whatever it pleases. They just don't hold effect. But if Scotland were to vote for indeendence it would put the London Government in an awkward position to say the least.

Anyway terrible news regarding the left vote. But no matter, parliament was of little use to us anyway and we can still campaign on the streets every bit as much as we always have, and at any rate we will be back.
Back? I'm sorry? Are you trying to imply that Labour was leftist?[/b]
You should check on Scottish politics more carefully before you accuse me of ridiculous stuff like that. There are a lot more than two parties in Scotland and the Socialist parties sadly lost out.

And BTW the SNP aren't a racist party. I dislike their pro-capitalist position but it would be ridiculous to call them racist on a basis of believing in independence.

[Goatse]

Originally posted by Demogorgon+May 04, 2007 08:08 pm--> (Demogorgon @ May 04, 2007 08:08 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 07:20 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 07:09 pm

[email protected] 04, 2007 06:05 pm
Its been expected for months, they're claims of independence are BS though, the Scotish Parliament doesnt have the power to call referendum's, and Westminster sure as hell arn't going to.
Actually it can call referendums on whatever it pleases. They just don't hold effect. But if Scotland were to vote for indeendence it would put the London Government in an awkward position to say the least.

Anyway terrible news regarding the left vote. But no matter, parliament was of little use to us anyway and we can still campaign on the streets every bit as much as we always have, and at any rate we will be back.
Back? I'm sorry? Are you trying to imply that Labour was leftist?
You should check on Scottish politics more carefully before you accuse me of ridiculous stuff like that. There are a lot more than two parties in Scotland and the Socialist parties sadly lost out.

And BTW the SNP aren't a racist party. I dislike their pro-capitalist position but it would be ridiculous to call them racist on a basis of believing in independence. [/b]
My apologies, then, I misread your post. When I first read it, it sounded like you were associating Labour with Leftism.

[Demogorgon]

Apology accepted. No I was referring particularly to the sad loss of Tommy Sherridan as well as other Socialists.

Anyway as I was saying we have had a setback, but the parliament never was of much use to us anyway. We have to keep going and hope to build up the socialist movement and hopefully try to put aside our differences and mend the wounds we have suffered as of late.

[PRC-UTE]

I'm shocked by the losses the SSP suffered.

[bolshevik butcher]

I'm not shocked by these losses, and I would be surprised that anyone on the Scottish left was. This has clearly been coming for months. Even before the split that is going to be blamed for all this in a ridiculous white wash the SSP was showing signs of decline; consistantly down on polls, looking like they would struggle to hold onto even two seats.

The Labour leadership is not leftist but the party clearly has links with the labour and trade union movement that the SNP does not. The SNP represents a wing of the Scottish Business class. This result is not a positive one for the scottish working class.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 04, 2007 10:28 pm
I'm not shocked by these losses, and I would be surprised that anyone on the Scottish left was. This has clearly been coming for months. Even before the split that is going to be blamed for all this in a ridiculous white wash the SSP was showing signs of decline; consistantly down on polls, looking like they would struggle to hold onto even two seats.

The Labour leadership is not leftist but the party clearly has links with the labour and trade union movement that the SNP does not. The SNP represents a wing of the Scottish Business class. This result is not a positive one for the scottish working class.
Well the decline of the SSP began long before the split. But so did the events leading to the split. We were doing all right while we were managing to paper over the cracks, but when it burst into the public arena around the time of Tommy Sheridan resigning, it was downhill from there and I knew then that we would be lucky to retain any seats. Tommy wasn't the party of course, and we could have got by without him as leader, even if we suffered from a lower profile, but the manner of his ousting, coupled with all the infighting and the fact Colin Fox has never been able to hold the party together made this inevitable. The split was just the final straw. I reckon that without it, Tommy would still be an MSP as Solidarity and the SSPs votes combined in Glasgow would have been enough, but he would have been on his own.

That said, we can't stew in our woe now. We need to start again. It may well be too late, but I hope we can mend our differences and build up a united socialist party again, have a good four years positive campaigning, showing people our vision rather than our divisions and winning back what we have lost next time.

Also, call me naive, but I really don't see how the SNP could be any worse than Labour. At least there is the possibility now that Brown might not be able to dictate to Scotland every detail of policy.

[chebol]

Demogorgon's more or less right, although there's still a fair amount of shock going on. In particular, there is the effect on the less politicised membership and supporters, who need to be kept around after this rout in order for the SSP to move forward (the same goes for Solidarity, but that's a different, and much darker, story). Also, there is the equally shocking failure of both parties to win significant council representation.

They got one each - Solidarity getting one in Glasgow, and Jim Bollan holding on in W. DBtonShire. This could have the effect of reinforcing the first after-shock mentioned above.

I wasn't particularly shocked myself, just horribly disappointed. It came as no surprise, as, amongst other things (like the shit-fight with Sheridan), the SSP has weakened its grass-roots campaigning. If it wants to get back up there, it will need to become a "combat party" again, and this will be made harder by the demoralisation of this defeat. Realistically, this could set the left back 10 years, not four, in Scotland.

And as for A.J.'s comments - all I can say mate, is that your comments make you seem like you're a prize idiot. I don't know what your strategy is, but if it is merely the defeat of "marijuana-smoking trots" at all costs, then I would suggest that you're on the wrong forum. This defeat means a massive setback for ALL the left in Scotland, and for the rest of Britain (and Europe) too, in many ways. If that is good for your strategy, I'd like to hear how your alchemical formula for revolution works.....

Oh well. Comrades in Scotland; chin up, after all, it's only the bosses' parly. Back to the real parly - that of the streets. Dare to struggle- dare to win.

Never mind the Blairites (or the Tartan Tories) - Here's the Scottish Socialist Party!

[chebol]

And while we're on the SNP - Red Squirrel's Lair (http://squirrelcommunism.blogspot.com/2007/04/tesco-snps-100-and-unmarxism-of-left_29.html) has a good piece.

[bolshevik butcher]

I know the guy who writes that blog actaully. Are you both from Scotland? I'd always thought you were australian chebol.

I really don't know if the SSP is capable of performing a poliitcal retreat and keeping most of it's hardened members. I can really see it desintigrating and going into free fall. Same with solidiarty. Although I believe the SSP was a project doomed to failure from the beggining it would be a real shame to lose much of the layer of working class militants that it has in its membership. Demogoron I think the one thing you miss with the talk of unity is that to me anyway the SSP appeared to be a mishmash of various groupings and opinions with no basis on which to form unity. A split seemed inevitable.

[chebol]

I'm from oz, but with close ties to hibernia. More on the other stuff later. Gotta run.

[RebelDog]

I think all this serves to show the working class that its really pointless to have aspirations of gaining power through farcical bourgeois democracy.

[kingbee]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 07:05 pm
Related comment/question: Would it be correct to call the SNP racist, by the following logic:

1. The SNP want to make Scotland independent because it would be better off without the United Kingdom. (Whether or not this is the case is beside the point.)
2. Therefore, they want to make things better for Scottish people.
3. This means that things would get worse for other people left in the United Kingdom
4. By this reasoning, they class the needs of Scottish people higher than that of other British people.
5. Therefore, they are racist.
No, because 2 and 3 aren't necessarily linked: if Scotland left the union, then it wouldn't make things worse for the UK at all. The only thing that would be worse would be that the countries left would not be a world power anymore, and Wales would probably leave anyways.

And regarding the election, I'm somewhat disappointed as the SNP didn't make as many gains as everybody said. They haven't got anything near a majority. Overall, it wasn't such a bad night for Labour overall: in England they did quite crap, but in Wales they still have control of the Assembly.

[graffic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 06:04 pm
My county in is totally under the tories!!! :o
So is most of England and Wales

[Whitten]

The only thing that would be worse would be that the countries left would not be a world power anymore

How exactly do you work that out?

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 07:05 pm
Related comment/question: Would it be correct to call the SNP racist, by the following logic:

1. The SNP want to make Scotland independent because it would be better off without the United Kingdom. (Whether or not this is the case is beside the point.)
2. Therefore, they want to make things better for Scottish people.
3. This means that things would get worse for other people left in the United Kingdom
4. By this reasoning, they class the needs of Scottish people higher than that of other British people.
5. Therefore, they are racist.
No, the reasoning is absurd, as you can see in the parody below:

1. Epictetus wants to run away from his master Marius, because he would be better of without Marius;

2. So, he wants to make things better for himself;

3. This means things would get worse for Marius;

4. By this reasoning, Epictetus class his needs higher than that of Marius;

5. Therefore, Epictetus is a racist.

You would first have to prove that the relationship between "Britain" and Scotland is not detrimental to the latter. And even then, the case could be made that separation could be better for both parts: "Jane wants to divorce John because it would be better for her", etc.

Luís Henrique

[kingbee]

Originally posted by graffic+May 05, 2007 01:59 pm--> (graffic @ May 05, 2007 01:59 pm)
[email protected] 04, 2007 06:04 pm
My county in is totally under the tories!!! :o
So is most of England and Wales [/b]
Don't worry, Wales isn't: they're not even the second biggest party here.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

where are the french riots?

[chebol]

The SSP's response to the election results in Scotland, courtesy of Red Squirrel's Lair (http://squirrelcommunism.blogspot.com/2007/05/exclusive.html)

The day Scotland's rainbow parliament turned grey

by Alan McCombes

By any standards this was a massacre for the left.

The red-green presence in Holyrood, represented by the Scottish
Socialist Party, the Greens and Solidarity was slashed from 15 to
two.

Of the six-strong group of independents, only Margo MacDonald was
left standing.

May 3rd 2007 was the day that Scotland's rainbow parliament was
turned a drab prison grey.

The wipe out of the socialist left was made all the more bitter by
the final electoral arithmetic of the new parliament.

Last Thursday marked the end of Labour's monolithic stranglehold over
Scottish politics at national and local level. The emergence of the
SNP as the biggest party in Scotland by the narrowest possible margin
will not lead to instant independence, the removal of nuclear weapons
from the Clyde, or even the demise of the Council Tax.

But it is likely to open up a new, turbulent phase in Scottish
politics, a time of strife, which could accelerate the ultimate
break-up of the United Kingdom and pave the way for the resurgence of
socialism.

After the horrendous internal strife within the left over the past
year, and with the socialist movement bitterly divided, the SSP went
into this election in a brutally realistic frame of mind. This was a
damage limitation exercise. At best, the party hoped to maintain a
fragile toehold in Holyrood in preparation for better days to come.

Read the rest here. (http://squirrelcommunism.blogspot.com/2007/05/exclusive.html)