Socialist Education - How will we Educate our children [Archive]

Lardlad95

27th November 2002, 14:14

Obviously should a country ever reach true socialism and God willing someday it will we must set up a good education system.

So far from what I can tell the US one is good, with one problem kids memeorize they don't think.

So this is how I propose we educate children.

We goin old school on this. With my proposal for the education system.

I. Old Greek Style Sophist Schools

a. More open debate will be studied.

b. Some aspects of modern American school will be thrown in

1. IE school activities, sports, lunch systems, modern media as time dictates.

2. School will be more structured than this, either standard highschol schedules or block schedules.

3. Unlike the greeks homosexuality wont be encouraged.

4. School wont be limited to select groups.

5. Any other of the good aspects of modern school to be disscussed later.

c. Through this more students will take pride in their school and education

1. During the Axial Age students took pride in what teacher they weer taught by, especially in Axial India and Greece

2. Sophist Schools were perfect examples of this. Expecially Socratic schools.

II. Curriculum/Academics

A. Students will ecome well trained in several subjects

1. MAth, Science, Literature, History, Debate, Philosophy, Politics, Culture

2. Electives, arti, music, drama, etc.

4. Athletics, intermurals, P.E.

B. Implementation of Dialectic Thought/Disscussion

1. Teachers will use the socratic method to teach students in philosophy, debate, and most other subjects that can be disscussed(history, Literature, culture, politics)

2. Students will use Dialectic Thought to look at all sides to be educated. Open disscussion is encouraged in school

3. Open Debate is encouraged in all classes

III. Special Classes

A. Theology

1. AN elective

2. Disscussed from point of veiw of all major religions including Atheism

B. Culture Classes

1. Will include studies in major cultures of the world, a specialized study course.

2. mandatory-1 credit

C. Economics

1. Madatory of 1 credit to graduate from high school can be taken at different times and has different levels but is mandantory

2. Will study all economic systems, and will read works by Marx, Adam Smith, etc.

D. Intermurals

1. Mandatory one credit to graduate

2. will focus on regional sports.

E. Arts

1. Not mandatory, but two credits can excuse Intermurals

2. will include Visual arts, dramatic arts, musical arts, Creative Writing, dance, any other arts I forgot.

3. Visual arts include: Painting, drawing, sculpting, tagging (see hip hop), etc.

4. Dramatic Arts include: Acting, stage Management, play writingm etc.

5. Musical Arts Include: Instruments, Singing, band, musical styles (Elaborated on and are included in seperate types of classes)

6. Music styles: Will include different styles and their cultures (Note Ethnic Styles such as afro-cuban drumming, traditional irish are included in course studies in cultural classes)

-Classical: History of, composers,(how to play)

-Jazz/Blues: History Of, important musicians, Jazz.blues culture, how to play

-Rock and Roll: History of, Cultural evolution, Important artist, Branches of style and how to play as such (Rock instruments)

-Hip Hop: History Of. Aspects of culture.
@Rapping: Rappers, types of rap, writing rhymes, freestyling, The Dozens/battles(Taken as a music credit)
@DJ: Djs, types of Djing, Mixing beats, scratching, battles (taken as a music credit)
@Tagging: Style, Can control, Artistic interpretation (taken as a visual art credit)
@Break Dancing: Break Teams, techniques (taken as a dance credit)

*note: different types taken for hip hop since not all aspects fall under music

7. Dance: different styles
@Tap
@Jazz
@Ballet
@Break Dancing (see hip hop)

*Note: all art classes will be determined by demand

IV. After School Activities

A. Athletics

1, Sports are determined by demand in area.

2. Inter school sports determined if enough schools exist to form a leaguge

B. Clubs

1. Determined on need.

I have more but this is all I can type for now.

Thoughts?

(Edited by Lardlad95 at 2:16 pm on Nov. 27, 2002)

Umoja

27th November 2002, 19:17

Looks good to me. Although, I wouldn't overly structure the schools in general, because their should be room for community change. I'd also make it key to have all teachers come from the local community, no out of district teachers unless their was a teacher shortage and a surplus in another community. This would promote many more people in an area to become teachers, out of the good of their heart.

Lardlad95

27th November 2002, 21:28

Thats why under alot of teh Curriculum I stated that classes would be created among demand, except for the mandatory classes.

The community will have input on what to teach

Behind enemy lines

27th November 2002, 21:52

I also think school shouldn't just deal with matters of the mind. In a socialist society people are gona be better off finacially but we also need to develop them spiritually. I suggest a class dealing with how to communicate with your family and others, dealing with emotions, helping to find meaning to life, etc. This may seem to some like it's crossing into religious dogma but why do you think people turn to religion anyway. Money, power, etc doesn't bring complete happiness.

A lot of crimes such as rape, assualt, etc could of been prevented in children if they were to deal at a early age in a productive matter about how there mother hated them, father belted them, were abused,etc

I believe socialism MUST go hand in hand with human growth/spirituality, whatever you want to call it.

timbaly

28th November 2002, 02:19

Lardlad what you said about the American kids memorizing and not thinking is so true. I even wrote a speech on it for my school validictorian in junior high school, but he decided not to read it, instead he used the typical "we made it on to high school" speech.

I can't find it right now, but I'll look for it and I'll post it if I find it. It was mostly about being told to memorize things because they will be on tests. Throughout the school year we are constantly reminded to remember something because it will be on a standadized test that determines whether we graduate or not no matter how good we do in the class itself.

Jaha

28th November 2002, 06:02

"Do not try to satisfy your vanity by teaching a great many things. Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds; do not overload them."
--Anatole France

this quote has been the basis of my opinion of education.

i say, a school should in fact, be loosely structured. it should spend many years building curiousity. it should supply any and all necessary teaching methods and catagorized knowledge.

an example would be where the students take many subjects, no tests, nothing is enforced (except community law). extensive libraries are kept. they house books, videos, computers. the classrooms would include open discussion and hands-on activities.

the teacher is not a fountain of knowledge to drink from, the teacher is a guide to help the student drink themselves.

of course, in later levels of schooling, specific education will be necessary for specific jobs and testing will be needed to be sure the worker of the future actually can do his job.

Lardlad95

28th November 2002, 06:49

Quote: from Behind enemy lines on 9:52 pm on Nov. 27, 2002
I also think school shouldn't just deal with matters of the mind. In a socialist society people are gona be better off finacially but we also need to develop them spiritually. I suggest a class dealing with how to communicate with your family and others, dealing with emotions, helping to find meaning to life, etc. This may seem to some like it's crossing into religious dogma but why do you think people turn to religion anyway. Money, power, etc doesn't bring complete happiness.

A lot of crimes such as rape, assualt, etc could of been prevented in children if they were to deal at a early age in a productive matter about how there mother hated them, father belted them, were abused,etc

I believe socialism MUST go hand in hand with human growth/spirituality, whatever you want to call it.

covered in both Philosphy and more in detail in Theology

Lardlad95

28th November 2002, 06:53

Quote: from Jaha on 6:02 am on Nov. 28, 2002
"Do not try to satisfy your vanity by teaching a great many things. Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds; do not overload them."
--Anatole France

this quote has been the basis of my opinion of education.

i say, a school should in fact, be loosely structured. it should spend many years building curiousity. it should supply any and all necessary teaching methods and catagorized knowledge.

an example would be where the students take many subjects, no tests, nothing is enforced (except community law). extensive libraries are kept. they house books, videos, computers. the classrooms would include open discussion and hands-on activities.

the teacher is not a fountain of knowledge to drink from, the teacher is a guide to help the student drink themselves.

of course, in later levels of schooling, specific education will be necessary for specific jobs and testing will be needed to be sure the worker of the future actually can do his job.

I am trying to open peoples minds and spark curiosity

however students should be well rounded.

not to mention you will innevetaibly need math, you will need to know how to read.

School can be loosely structured but its a school, it needs some structure.

I think the structure that America has right now is fine, except they are teaching wrong.

If we can use that, loosen it up some for open disscussion, and add better classes then we are set

redstar2000

29th November 2002, 00:31

I agree with comrade Jaha on this one. I think all kids really NEED to know is how to read, how to print legibly, and how to use a mouse & keyboard.

After that, they should be free to seek knowledge wherever and whenever they wish, with whomever knows something that they'd like to learn and who is willing to teach them.

Some semi-formal structures may exist from time to time depending on need...but the factory-like (or jail-like) atmosphere of education under capitalism is, frankly, an ENEMY of real education. Modern "education" is really intended to teach obedience...and like any well-designed tool works pretty good for that purpose.

In a free, communist society, we need different tools for different purposes. If we want kids to learn the ways of freedom, we must begin by setting them free.

Lardlad95

29th November 2002, 00:45

Quote: from redstar2000 on 12:31 am on Nov. 29, 2002
I agree with comrade Jaha on this one. I think all kids really NEED to know is how to read, how to print legibly, and how to use a mouse & keyboard.

After that, they should be free to seek knowledge wherever and whenever they wish, with whomever knows something that they'd like to learn and who is willing to teach them.

Some semi-formal structures may exist from time to time depending on need...but the factory-like (or jail-like) atmosphere of education under capitalism is, frankly, an ENEMY of real education. Modern "education" is really intended to teach obedience...and like any well-designed tool works pretty good for that purpose.

In a free, communist society, we need different tools for different purposes. If we want kids to learn the ways of freedom, we must begin by setting them free.

If you don't have to work why would you?

If you don't have to learn why would you?

Most people feel this way education needs structure

redstar2000

29th November 2002, 03:39

If you don't have to, why would you?

See what capitalism has done to your head, Lardlad95? You've lost even the ability to IMAGINE that things could be worth doing for their own sake--you can only imagine some guy with a whip ("structure") standing behind you to MAKE you do things that otherwise you wouldn't do.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying you're a terrible person or anything like that. I'm just saying you've absorbed EXACTLY what the school system tries to teach people...they "need" a boss or some other form of compulsion or otherwise they'd just lay around on the grass looking at the pretty clouds.

It ain't so. Real work and real learning--that which we have selected for ourselves--are not only tightly linked but just about the most fun we hairless primates can have this side of an orgy...and even orgies get tedious after a while.

Little kids KNOW this...at least the ones that haven't been totally pacified by the dummyvision set. But the American school system is not interested...in fact, they're opposed to it. It would be "disruptive" and, worse, it would be a funding nightmare. And, ohmygod, what about status and prestige???

But WHO is standing behind us right this minute, "making" me write these words or "making" you read them? What "structure" "makes" us learn from one another on message boards like this one? We are INTERESTED in this stuff and no one has to FORCE us to take part in this discussion.

It's just a tiny sip of freedom; someday, we'll break out the bottles and do some SERIOUS DRINKING!

(Edited by redstar2000 at 8:41 am on Nov. 29, 2002)

Lardlad95

29th November 2002, 12:24

Quote: from redstar2000 on 3:39 am on Nov. 29, 2002
If you don't have to, why would you?

See what capitalism has done to your head, Lardlad95? You've lost even the ability to IMAGINE that things could be worth doing for their own sake--you can only imagine some guy with a whip ("structure") standing behind you to MAKE you do things that otherwise you wouldn't do.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying you're a terrible person or anything like that. I'm just saying you've absorbed EXACTLY what the school system tries to teach people...they "need" a boss or some other form of compulsion or otherwise they'd just lay around on the grass looking at the pretty clouds.

It ain't so. Real work and real learning--that which we have selected for ourselves--are not only tightly linked but just about the most fun we hairless primates can have this side of an orgy...and even orgies get tedious after a while.

Little kids KNOW this...at least the ones that haven't been totally pacified by the dummyvision set. But the American school system is not interested...in fact, they're opposed to it. It would be "disruptive" and, worse, it would be a funding nightmare. And, ohmygod, what about status and prestige???

But WHO is standing behind us right this minute, "making" me write these words or "making" you read them? What "structure" "makes" us learn from one another on message boards like this one? We are INTERESTED in this stuff and no one has to FORCE us to take part in this discussion.

It's just a tiny sip of freedom; someday, we'll break out the bottles and do some SERIOUS DRINKING!

(Edited by redstar2000 at 8:41 am on Nov. 29, 2002)

You have doven to faqr deep into what I said and tried to exaimen my subconcious.....why?

No i believe that children don't want to go to school.

This is true children would rather be doing other things than learn. We aren't all skipping to go to school.

Hell I hate school ( mainly because of the type of school I attened)

I'm sure you have obligations that you don't want to do.

I mean come on everyone does..

There are things you would rather be doing.

I am not saying that we need task masters but society needs structure, so does school.

apathy maybe

29th November 2002, 12:44

I have thought on the subject of schooling my self, now admitting that I didn't read all your first post lardlad I did pick up the bit on not encouraging homosexuality. Now considering that ones sexual preferences are determined in the womb by the amount of each type of hormone I don't think that it is a matter of discouraging or encouraging. It should be mentioned in whatever class sex is discussed in but should not be encouraged not discouraged just neither should heterosexuality, left-handedness, or right-handedness.
Now part of my idea is that the system would not use years, (such as 1985, 2000, 2500 rather then 365 days) as a determining factor in which grade a child enters when. But rather when they turn 5 1/2 they enter the next grade, when the turn 6 1/2 the next. And so on. If they are not as intelligent they stay back part of a year. The over all affect would be that there would be (aprox still needs work) all the people born in the month of August 2005 are all in same (class/grade/doing the same work). Also when one turns 18 or 21 or pick an age, they do a year or six months of work experience. Say a year, for 3 months they do a job randomly selected (based on ability), then the same for the next 3 months, for the other 2 3 months they pick a job and do it. (or change time scales).

Then we come to the system of time which shall be discussed in another thread.

man in the red suit

29th November 2002, 15:50

lardlad, You were speaking about loosely structured schools but How loosely? on the scale where you can choose more or less classes?

has anyone reached a conclusion on what the nescessities are and what the extras are? because I personally believe that a lot of kids today are taking classes that are quite frankly a complete waste of time. They also have us cramming in even more classes we don't want becaus ethey are necessities to get into college........cooking.....fine arts....etc...etc.....I think that a school structure whould teach classes which you are interested in or ones that can be applied to an occupation your interested.

of course there are necesary classes that everyone has to take...english,......math,......history,.......etc .....

what's your take on this?

redstar2000

29th November 2002, 17:11

No, Lardlad95, I have not even touched your subconscious (if such a thing exists). I have tried to show how your CONSCIOUS mind has learned EXACTLY what the school system tried so hard to teach you.

"I believe that children don't want to go to school"--of course, they don't. Instead of learning as adventure (which it really is), school gives them learning as drudgery. Little kids are full of energy, so let's make them sit silently in hard chairs for 4 or 5 or 6 hours! Instead of following their curiousity where it might lead them, let's pound what we think they "need" into their heads...and give them some drugs if they won't "pay attention".

You admit yourself that you "hate" school--so do most kids. What you seem reluctant to examine is the reason why. You want to tinker with what's taught or what people "have" to learn and what is voluntary, or how the school-year is scheduled, or what color the walls are. You grew up in a jailcell and can't IMAGINE any other POSSIBLE way to grow up. That's a real SHAME!

Structure is like a hammer; useful when you need to pound nails, pretty hopeless for any other task. Some kinds of highly specialized learning PROBABLY would work better with more structure (medicine, science, engineering, etc.).

Are there things that we MUST do, even though we'd rather be doing something else? Of course there are; because we live on Earth and not in "heaven". The demands of our physical bodies consume an enormous portion of our lives (we spend 1/3 of our lives asleep!). It CAN'T be helped, at least not at the present time.

But that isn't what you mean, is it? You sincerely beieve that we need to be "made" to do things we "hate" presumably "for our own good", right?

THAT is what they wanted you to believe when they hauled your young ass to school years ago. Looks like they "won" one.

As I have said in other threads and will repeat again here: we will never break the chains on our bodies until we first break the chains in our heads.

Lardlad95

2nd December 2002, 05:34

Quote: from apathy maybe on 12:44 pm on Nov. 29, 2002
I have thought on the subject of schooling my self, now admitting that I didn't read all your first post lardlad I did pick up the bit on not encouraging homosexuality. Now considering that ones sexual preferences are determined in the womb by the amount of each type of hormone I don't think that it is a matter of discouraging or encouraging. It should be mentioned in whatever class sex is discussed in but should not be encouraged not discouraged just neither should heterosexuality, left-handedness, or right-handedness.
Now part of my idea is that the system would not use years, (such as 1985, 2000, 2500 rather then 365 days) as a determining factor in which grade a child enters when. But rather when they turn 5 1/2 they enter the next grade, when the turn 6 1/2 the next. And so on. If they are not as intelligent they stay back part of a year. The over all affect would be that there would be (aprox still needs work) all the people born in the month of August 2005 are all in same (class/grade/doing the same work). Also when one turns 18 or 21 or pick an age, they do a year or six months of work experience. Say a year, for 3 months they do a job randomly selected (based on ability), then the same for the next 3 months, for the other 2 3 months they pick a job and do it. (or change time scales).

Then we come to the system of time which shall be discussed in another thread.

No i meant the homosexuality thing as far as the ancient greeks, it was well known alot of them were gay....and alot of this went on within schools.

I want to create a sophist type school...minus teh homosexuality

Lardlad95

2nd December 2002, 05:37

Quote: from man in the red suit on 3:50 pm on Nov. 29, 2002
lardlad, You were speaking about loosely structured schools but How loosely? on the scale where you can choose more or less classes?

has anyone reached a conclusion on what the nescessities are and what the extras are? because I personally believe that a lot of kids today are taking classes that are quite frankly a complete waste of time. They also have us cramming in even more classes we don't want becaus ethey are necessities to get into college........cooking.....fine arts....etc...etc.....I think that a school structure whould teach classes which you are interested in or ones that can be applied to an occupation your interested.

of course there are necesary classes that everyone has to take...english,......math,......history,.......etc .....

what's your take on this?

Well It would be structured thus that you select classes in addition to necassary ones

Extras are things that not everyone needs to learn and or wants to learn

Lardlad95

2nd December 2002, 05:41

Quote: from redstar2000 on 5:11 pm on Nov. 29, 2002
No, Lardlad95, I have not even touched your subconscious (if such a thing exists). I have tried to show how your CONSCIOUS mind has learned EXACTLY what the school system tried so hard to teach you.

"I believe that children don't want to go to school"--of course, they don't. Instead of learning as adventure (which it really is), school gives them learning as drudgery. Little kids are full of energy, so let's make them sit silently in hard chairs for 4 or 5 or 6 hours! Instead of following their curiousity where it might lead them, let's pound what we think they "need" into their heads...and give them some drugs if they won't "pay attention".

You admit yourself that you "hate" school--so do most kids. What you seem reluctant to examine is the reason why. You want to tinker with what's taught or what people "have" to learn and what is voluntary, or how the school-year is scheduled, or what color the walls are. You grew up in a jailcell and can't IMAGINE any other POSSIBLE way to grow up. That's a real SHAME!

Structure is like a hammer; useful when you need to pound nails, pretty hopeless for any other task. Some kinds of highly specialized learning PROBABLY would work better with more structure (medicine, science, engineering, etc.).

Are there things that we MUST do, even though we'd rather be doing something else? Of course there are; because we live on Earth and not in "heaven". The demands of our physical bodies consume an enormous portion of our lives (we spend 1/3 of our lives asleep!). It CAN'T be helped, at least not at the present time.

But that isn't what you mean, is it? You sincerely beieve that we need to be "made" to do things we "hate" presumably "for our own good", right?

THAT is what they wanted you to believe when they hauled your young ass to school years ago. Looks like they "won" one.

As I have said in other threads and will repeat again here: we will never break the chains on our bodies until we first break the chains in our heads.

I hate school....mainly because of how it is structred in this country.

and guees what, If I felt like it I wouldn't go.

Last year I missed 36 days and was late every day

hell one day I showed p turned in my work and left.

And that was all my decsion I chose to.

I go to school because I want to even though I hate it...why? Your right because I'm better for it.

We shouldn't be forced to do what we don't want

we should choose to take the harder more fruitful rode.

I choose to attend school.

Everyone should also but people don't

I don't want to force them, but we should atleast stress it's importance

and also i said it should be structured that means for those already going

redstar2000

2nd December 2002, 21:59

Ok, I see a little more of what you're getting it. And I think you're right NOT to go when you see no point to it.

It seems to me that a "school" (or ANY structure) exists to serve one or more purposes...the purposes DON'T exist in order that we might have a structure.

We would like to have kids interested in learning things. What's the best tool for that, if not their own curiousity?

Personally, I think "schools" would be everywhere in general and nowhere in particular. There would be very few places you could point to and say "that's a school". But there'd be almost no place where there might not be some kind of learning going on.

I can imagine public libraries 10 times as big as the ones that exist now...with MANY general purpose rooms where people who want to learn something might gather; with hundreds of terminals with free, broadband internet service; PLEASANT places where you could drink a cup of coffee and smoke a cigarette and sit in a comfortable chair in a properly heated or air-conditioned, well-ventilated, quiet environment.

I can imagine groups of small children in a public park; some of them gathered around an older kid who's teaching them some things while others, growing restless, are off playing, having a good time.

I can even imagine some teenagers sitting in the back of a bar (no drinking laws under communism) with an old lefty, learning from him what things were like in the early days of the revolution. (!)

I can imagine a MILLION scenarios...and not even scratch the surface. A new age that would actually establish, for the first time, a kid's freedom to learn...THAT would be so far beyond what we have now that you'd need different words to describe it altogether.

Learning is, potentially, as natural as breathing for our species. Let us therefore rip the ruling-class tubes from our nostrels and open our lungs! We'll do just fine!

Lardlad95

2nd December 2002, 23:34

Quote: from redstar2000 on 9:59 pm on Dec. 2, 2002
Ok, I see a little more of what you're getting it. And I think you're right NOT to go when you see no point to it.

It seems to me that a "school" (or ANY structure) exists to serve one or more purposes...the purposes DON'T exist in order that we might have a structure.

We would like to have kids interested in learning things. What's the best tool for that, if not their own curiousity?

Personally, I think "schools" would be everywhere in general and nowhere in particular. There would be very few places you could point to and say "that's a school". But there'd be almost no place where there might not be some kind of learning going on.

I can imagine public libraries 10 times as big as the ones that exist now...with MANY general purpose rooms where people who want to learn something might gather; with hundreds of terminals with free, broadband internet service; PLEASANT places where you could drink a cup of coffee and smoke a cigarette and sit in a comfortable chair in a properly heated or air-conditioned, well-ventilated, quiet environment.

I can imagine groups of small children in a public park; some of them gathered around an older kid who's teaching them some things while others, growing restless, are off playing, having a good time.

I can even imagine some teenagers sitting in the back of a bar (no drinking laws under communism) with an old lefty, learning from him what things were like in the early days of the revolution. (!)

I can imagine a MILLION scenarios...and not even scratch the surface. A new age that would actually establish, for the first time, a kid's freedom to learn...THAT would be so far beyond what we have now that you'd need different words to describe it altogether.

Learning is, potentially, as natural as breathing for our species. Let us therefore rip the ruling-class tubes from our nostrels and open our lungs! We'll do just fine!

I would love what you laid out but that just isn't feisable
I would love huge gargantuan libraries

I would love to read all day

but other people don't simple as that.

There are people you have to cinvince and they are in the majority

redstar2000

3rd December 2002, 14:11

Yes, Lardlad95, we are in a tiny minority and HOW will we ever convince the majority that those chains in their heads are not really welded into place or even a treasured part of "human nature"?

The beginning is simply telling them what we think...and being prepared for all the puzzlement, incomprehension, and outright hostility that we will face. A new idea always has a tough time...and a new idea as explosive as communism AND all that it implies has and will have an incredibly tough time.

But, if Marx was right, then over a period of time people will begin to listen, begin to think, begin to feel the weight of those chains and resent it, begin to grow restless and discontented...and then we'll see.

I'm not sure that we ever really "convince" people to rebel...I think at our best we simply present the option (which had never occurred to them before) and then they decide themselves whether it's really worth it.

But there is one clear lesson of revolutionary periods in the past: the seemingly passive, conservative majority transforms itself almost "overnight" into something so different that you might be describing a new species. At least, that's how witnesses have described it and I see no reason to doubt them. It's admittedly unlikely and even highly unlikely that you or (especially) I will live to see the kinds of things we talked about in this thread; but the arrow of history points so emphatically in this direction that, to me, it seems as inevitable as tomorrow's sunrise. It will happen.

red warlock

5th December 2002, 15:35

Communist education has a scientific basis and must broaden people's horizons and enable them to think right...they should have a clear vision of the world,free from any metaphysical speculations...Communist education must imply the study of marxism,the phylosophical sources of marxism,leninism and dialectic materialism...also communist students must study sociology and elementary political science...these are compulsory...they can also study:music history,world history,psychology,sciences(maths,physics....)and evry important::they must practice sports...
"hasta la victoria siempre"
red warlock

redstar2000

6th December 2002, 15:12

And yet again someone volunteers to stand over kids with a whip to MAKE them learn a whole bunch of stuff, only this time it's "communist" stuff. THAT will REALLY help, won't it?

I don't know why I have such a hard time getting the idea across: GRANT KIDS THE FREEDOM TO LEARN AND THEY WILL DISCOVER WHAT THEY NEED!!!

They DO NOT NEED to be INDOCTRINATED, dammit! Not even by US! ESPECIALLY not by us! :shocked:

Lardlad95

7th December 2002, 01:30

Quote: from redstar2000 on 3:12 pm on Dec. 6, 2002
And yet again someone volunteers to stand over kids with a whip to MAKE them learn a whole bunch of stuff, only this time it's "communist" stuff. THAT will REALLY help, won't it?

I don't know why I have such a hard time getting the idea across: GRANT KIDS THE FREEDOM TO LEARN AND THEY WILL DISCOVER WHAT THEY NEED!!!

They DO NOT NEED to be INDOCTRINATED, dammit! Not even by US! ESPECIALLY not by us! :shocked:

I argee with you not agreeing with red warlock,

However you plan makes no sense...thats like telling someone go take this heavy box fourteen blocks and set it on the ground...but I'm not going to force you.

Do you really expect everyone to take the box?

redstar2000

7th December 2002, 13:39

I think learning is a different kind of activity than carrying heavy boxes long distances...though I can see how people would look at it that way after a few years in "school".

Anything somebody MAKES you do is going to seem more laborious than if you chose to do it yourself for its own sake. I would only go cross-country skiing if someone was pointing a gun at me and I would complain bitterly for the entire trip...but thousands of people do it for FUN every winter's day.

As to how far people will go, who can say? But I do think that if and to the extent learning is de-coupled from coercion, a HUGE number of people will discover that they NEVER want to stop. :cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 6:42 pm on Dec. 7, 2002)

Lardlad95

7th December 2002, 13:48

Quote: from redstar2000 on 1:39 pm on Dec. 7, 2002
I think learning is a different kind of activity than carrying heavy boxes long distances...though I can see how people would look at it that way after a few years in "school".

Anything somebody MAKES you do is going to seem more laborious than if you chose to do it yourself for its own sake. I would only go cross-country skiing if someone was pointing a gun at me and I would complain bitterly for the entire trip...but thousands of people do it for FUN every winter's day.

As to how far people will go, who can say? But I do think that if and to the extent learning is de-coupled from coercion, a HUGE number of people will discover that they NEVER want to stop. :cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 6:42 pm on Dec. 7, 2002)

I know kids who hate learning and I don't mean they gripe about going to school I mean like I'll be reading a book and they will be like "why are you reading"

not what I'm reading but why...

I told my cousin that i wanted Stephen Hawking's new book "The Universe in a Nutshell" and the "Big Book of Racism" for christmas and he was like man I would never want a book as a gift....

Alot of people just don't like learning and it's a shame because the Discovery channel has great documentaries

redstar2000

7th December 2002, 20:28

Lardlad95, I've seen the SAME thing more times than I care to remember. Some people react to the sight of a book the way I would react to the sight of a poisonous snake!

But, don't you wonder? Were they really ALWAYS like that? I don't know your experiences, but I've never run across a little kid--say 4 to 6 years old--that wouldn't just rip your ears off with Why? Why? Why?

What happens to that insatiable curiousity about everything? Maybe there are other explanations, but right now I think the most obvious one is SCHOOL. The first year or two isn't so bad...but after that, it just gets worse and worse.

I refuse to believe that "it has to be that way." :cool:

Lardlad95

8th December 2002, 06:45

Quote: from redstar2000 on 8:28 pm on Dec. 7, 2002
Lardlad95, I've seen the SAME thing more times than I care to remember. Some people react to the sight of a book the way I would react to the sight of a poisonous snake!

But, don't you wonder? Were they really ALWAYS like that? I don't know your experiences, but I've never run across a little kid--say 4 to 6 years old--that wouldn't just rip your ears off with Why? Why? Why?

What happens to that insatiable curiousity about everything? Maybe there are other explanations, but right now I think the most obvious one is SCHOOL. The first year or two isn't so bad...but after that, it just gets worse and worse.

I refuse to believe that "it has to be that way." :cool:

Those curious kids probably didn't grow up in ghettos and have parents who were out gettng wasted..only to come home in argue...and thats assuming that they are married

red warlock

8th December 2002, 11:56

MY FRIEND,COMRADE YOU ARE RIGHT:OF COURSE THEY MUST THINK FREELY BUT WE MUST GIVE THEM THE THEORETICAL CONTEXT IN WHICH TO DEVELOP...FUCK INDOCRTINATION!!THESE SUBJECTS I MENTIONED ARE COMPULSORY BUT THERE THEY ARE NOT INDOCTINATED THEY ARE ALOWED TO THINK AND SPEAK FREELY..THEY WILL CHOOSE...SCHOOLS MUST EXIST,BELIEVE ME THEY DO...
CHE GUEVARA FOREVER!!!
RED WARLOCK

(Edited by red warlock at 4:01 pm on Dec. 8, 2002)

redstar2000

8th December 2002, 13:20

Lardlad95, you seem remarkably stubborn on this matter. Presuming both of us are white and have had little contact with African-American children in inner-city settings, HOW can you assume that a four-year-old black kid is not JUST as curious as a four-year-old white kid?

And WHAT does parental argument, "being wasted", and/or marital status have to do with anything we've been talking about here?

"schools must exist, believe me"--red warlock. NO! -- redstar2000

(Edited by redstar2000 at 6:23 pm on Dec. 8, 2002)

Lardlad95

8th December 2002, 15:28

Quote: from redstar2000 on 1:20 pm on Dec. 8, 2002
Lardlad95, you seem remarkably stubborn on this matter. Presuming both of us are white and have had little contact with African-American children in inner-city settings, HOW can you assume that a four-year-old black kid is not JUST as curious as a four-year-old white kid?

And WHAT does parental argument, "being wasted", and/or marital status have to do with anything we've been talking about here?

"schools must exist, believe me"--red warlock. NO! -- redstar2000

(Edited by redstar2000 at 6:23 pm on Dec. 8, 2002)

I never assumed you were anything I used the ghettos and parents as an example of an enviroment in which a child's curiosity isn't nutured.

It could take place in any slum or a trailer park...or whatever.

if you grow up impovershed you are at a disadvantage.

I neever said curiosity was stumped by race, whatI meant was that if a kid grows up in a poor household with neglectful parents then his or her curiosity wont be nutured.

truthaddict11

8th December 2002, 16:42

we should work on literacy (a lot) and increase adult education plus make a mandatory parenting class, but those are just my opinions

truthaddict11

8th December 2002, 16:47

i believe history teachers should lecture and discuss topics with thier students topics like the treatment of american indians or american imperialism and such. not book memorizing, sorry if this has been brought up before

redstar2000

8th December 2002, 20:47

Well, Lardlad95, I thought we were talking about a socialist society in which, presumably, poverty would not be a problem. Likewise, since we communists have no "special regard" for the "sanctity of the family", we would not leave kids to be "neglected".

I'll concede thise much: in the early years or perhaps even decades, some unlucky kids may well "slip through the cracks"...grow up essentially ignorant and unskilled. We are not angels and it's rather unlikely that we will get everything "right" on the first try. Truthaddict11's suggestion of putting resources into adult education is a good one; I'd be willing to PAY people to "make up" for past neglect by studying to catch up...and a formal structure WOULD make much more sense in this context.

But we'll improve as time goes on...as long as we can get the wretched idea out of our heads that the "best" way to get people to learn stuff is to FORCE them. It is, in fact, the fucking WORST way! :cool:

Lardlad95

8th December 2002, 23:18

Quote: from redstar2000 on 8:47 pm on Dec. 8, 2002
Well, Lardlad95, I thought we were talking about a socialist society in which, presumably, poverty would not be a problem. Likewise, since we communists have no "special regard" for the "sanctity of the family", we would not leave kids to be "neglected".

I'll concede thise much: in the early years or perhaps even decades, some unlucky kids may well "slip through the cracks"...grow up essentially ignorant and unskilled. We are not angels and it's rather unlikely that we will get everything "right" on the first try. Truthaddict11's suggestion of putting resources into adult education is a good one; I'd be willing to PAY people to "make up" for past neglect by studying to catch up...and a formal structure WOULD make much more sense in this context.

But we'll improve as time goes on...as long as we can get the wretched idea out of our heads that the "best" way to get people to learn stuff is to FORCE them. It is, in fact, the fucking WORST way! :cool:

Well you are under the assumption that a new continient will just pop up out of nowwhere and we will start our society from scratch,

We are taking over another country so it wont happen right away