Cheating In School [Archive]

dez

29th April 2007, 14:34

set up schemes with your friends
that can reduce your school subjects study time to 1/10!!!

Set up a scheme with your friends, in which each one of you study to a subject.
Basically, bring a cell phone in your pocket and take the sound off from it.
The 'designed student' will finish the test first, get out and write it down in a sms message to all of the friends.
All you got to worry is not being seen touching the cellphone, and since they are small, it's cake.
100% proved in catholic school
=D

Switching tests is a good way to go too, but remember not to write names.

Now, there is a quite crazy way i've heard.
I didn't see no one doing it actually.
Go to the test room previously, with a pizza box, a nail, a scissor and a hammer.
Cut the pizza box in half, or perhaps a smaller size depending on the table.
Write the whole content that you had to study in the pizza box, nail it under the table and voila.
Every time you need it, just turn the pizza table to your lap, read the stuff, and turn it back under the table.
lol..

fordan55

29th April 2007, 16:51

If your school uses scantron mechens you can get past them by.This Method of Cheating took a lot of time to
compose and was painstakingly Finished on 5/10/94. The
author of this file will remain anonymous and is not a
member of a group or any group affiliates. I also do not
wish to become a part of any group because groups are a
utter waste of my time and energy. I publish and release
what I want and thats that. None of that group crap for me.
This method is FOOL PROOF. I have used it many times
and it has worked wonders for me. I have gotten past 3
achievement tests, the SAT, and 3 AP tests with this
wonderful godsend. The first thing to do is to hide a piece
of tracing paper in your calculator. Most standardized tests
allow calculators and this shouldn’t prove a problem. Then
when you grid your REGISTRATION # in, put the tracing paper
between your pencil and the paper and shade it in DARKLY.
This way, the graphite of the pencil will be filtered and
the OGR (Optical Graphite Recongnition) will be somewhat
faulty.
Next, the machines that score your tests aren’t that
highly sophisticated. ETS wants you to think that but it
really isn't the truth. ETS are a highly corrupt
institution. A court case took place a few years ago in
which ETS accepted a bribe from a very rich man who will
rename nameless. ETS allegedly configured their scoring
machines to not count errors towards the final score. This
can be easily done because only ONE QUARTER of the incorrect
responses are substracted from the number correct. The
officials can easily make this to 1/0, and in layman’s
terms, Fry the system.
So where do you come in? Well you can fool the system
into thinking it is taking off 1/0 per question answered
incorrectly. In order to do this you must shade in your
answers DARKLY on the left. That is because the scanner
reads from Left to Right and the OptaVisor (the company who
ETS employs) sensor will simply go out of comission upon
this task.
Then on the left hand side make smear marks of the
pencil by shaving off the graphite in a fine powder and
smearing it across the left size. This will control the
actual computer which tabulates your score.
The final thing to do is where it says “For ETS only
shade in the SECOND circle. This will override the scoring
procedure used by the machine and you will be given a
perfect score. this works well :) :A:

Question everything

29th April 2007, 20:07

The easiest way to cheat (if you have an Mp3 player), record all of your notes and right before the test, set up your mp3 to play the notes over and over again there are other more persise ways to do it but this is the easiest (unfortunitly our school has banned us from listening to music while an exam/test/quiz is in progress)

which doctor

29th April 2007, 21:11

For science and math classes you could get an OS like Mirage on your graphing calculator and then get some program like word and type your notes in the calculator.

Purple

30th April 2007, 01:45

Or you could be a real bad-ass and read the text books before your test. Now thats radical, dude..

Avtomat_Icaro

30th April 2007, 01:46

Hmm...while this might sound geeky. But what about actually studying harder? Knowledge is power, so more knowledge is more power.

But yeah...cheating. Use sign language...codes..I dunno

lithium

30th April 2007, 02:13

In Ireland you're not allowed to have jackets or unworn clothing at your desk. Programmable calculators are banned; any phones or mp3 players on your person will have you expelled (and you'll be unable to pursue another course of education in the future). Just a few examples from the third-level education system, afair it's the same for second-level education.

dez

30th April 2007, 02:29

same thing with phones here.
four words
do not get caught!
and if so, destroy the proof in the nearest window
=D

basically i`m up for cheating in situations where you really dont want to learn what the school is imposing you to learn- in cases you don`t get to pick your subjects.
Such as subjects solely for indocrinating (i had religion classes, and philosophy from a sophist point of view. against my will).

Sir_No_Sir

30th April 2007, 02:46

Yeah, I hate how people say "cheating is unfair to yourself"

Uhh no, school is unfair to me.

OneBrickOneVoice

30th April 2007, 03:45

which doctor

30th April 2007, 04:17

I was unaware the fascists had a line on unworn clothes during tests...

Jude

30th April 2007, 04:19

The schooling systems are rigged... Anyone with Anti-Nationalist views is screwed... In the words of George Orwell, "If you follow the little rules,... they can't catch you breaking the big ones"... or some shit like that... f... fuck...

Question everything

30th April 2007, 12:24

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 01:13 am
In Ireland you're not allowed to have jackets or unworn clothing at your desk. Programmable calculators are banned; any phones or mp3 players on your person will have you expelled (and you'll be unable to pursue another course of education in the future). Just a few examples from the third-level education system, afair it's the same for second-level education.
Uniforms for us... and a 1 day suspension if we are caught with cell phone at all in school, as for Mp3s if you get caught with one then it will be taken away and you will either get a 0 or you will have to redo the test.

Karl Marx's Camel

30th April 2007, 16:05

I used a mobile phone, went into the school restroom and checked them. :)

Avtomat_Icaro

30th April 2007, 16:25

No offense, but some people here sound whiny...in a bad way. How are you being oppressed if you cant be calling to your friends in order to commi FRAUD during an exam? Just turn off your fucking phone, and if you do really need to commit fraud with a mobile phone...make sure you dont get caught.

Yeah, I hate how people say "cheating is unfair to yourself"

Uhh no, school is unfair to me.
You basicly dont learn the stuff you have to learn, so if you cheat and get a good grade without knowing what you are supposed to learn you are basicly fucking yourself over in the longer term. Remember knowledge is power. If I remember correctly Che Guevara was very harsh when it came to studying, he gave entire speeches to students in Cuba that they should study their asses off and drop the excuses like "oh my brain hurts" etc.

basically i`m up for cheating in situations where you really dont want to learn what the school is imposing you to learn- in cases you don`t get to pick your subjects.

Most of the time thats basic stuff, so general knowledge which is needed for later on. How much would it suck if you end up going to university and you have no fucking clue on how to write a paper?

Such as subjects solely for indocrinating (i had religion classes, and philosophy from a sophist point of view. against my will).
Meh...just endure it, there are worst things out there than having to follow classes on religion and philosphy with a different of view than you have.

dez

30th April 2007, 18:11

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 03:25 pm

basically i`m up for cheating in situations where you really dont want to learn what the school is imposing you to learn- in cases you don`t get to pick your subjects.

Most of the time thats basic stuff, so general knowledge which is needed for later on. How much would it suck if you end up going to university and you have no fucking clue on how to write a paper?
NOT in brazil.
Our whole education system involves compulsory subjects.

[QUOTE]Such as subjects solely for indocrinating (i had religion classes, and philosophy from a sophist point of view. against my will).
Meh...just endure it, there are worst things out there than having to follow classes on religion and philosphy with a different of view than you have.[QUOTE]

I did endure it.
Just not all the time...
:rolleyes:
And in senior year, i didn't cheat at all
:blush:

Avtomat_Icaro

30th April 2007, 19:13

NOT in brazil.
Our whole education system involves compulsory subjects.
I assume this is for high school? High school is pure laziness and survival :P Things start to get fun when you are able to go to college or university. :)

I did endure it.
Just not all the time...

Same here, I skipped so many classes :lol:

Hmm, Im a lazy bastard, so Im not the greatest example of what Im trying to explain. :ph34r:

fordan55

30th April 2007, 19:32

if your working on a opninted thigne you can just turn to the web the night befor

Question everything

30th April 2007, 21:27

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 03:25 pm
No offense, but some people here sound whiny...in a bad way. How are you being oppressed if you cant be calling to your friends in order to commi FRAUD during an exam? Just turn off your fucking phone, and if you do really need to commit fraud with a mobile phone...make sure you dont get caught.

Yeah, I hate how people say "cheating is unfair to yourself"

Uhh no, school is unfair to me.
You basicly dont learn the stuff you have to learn, so if you cheat and get a good grade without knowing what you are supposed to learn you are basicly fucking yourself over in the longer term. Remember knowledge is power. If I remember correctly Che Guevara was very harsh when it came to studying, he gave entire speeches to students in Cuba that they should study their asses off and drop the excuses like "oh my brain hurts" etc.

basically i`m up for cheating in situations where you really dont want to learn what the school is imposing you to learn- in cases you don`t get to pick your subjects.

Most of the time thats basic stuff, so general knowledge which is needed for later on. How much would it suck if you end up going to university and you have no fucking clue on how to write a paper?

Such as subjects solely for indocrinating (i had religion classes, and philosophy from a sophist point of view. against my will).
Meh...just endure it, there are worst things out there than having to follow classes on religion and philosphy with a different of view than you have.
:D Yay I'm not one of the whiney *****es :P

Sir_No_Sir

30th April 2007, 22:10

Oh please. Stuffing me in an underfunded prison for 6 hours a day and making my life a living hell if I dont do what you make me do is fair?

Cut your tired old morals out.

Sir_No_Sir

30th April 2007, 22:14

P.S.: Just cuz Che said something, doesnt make it right. That's what most of us call hiearchy.

Question everything

30th April 2007, 23:04

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 09:10 pm
Oh please. Stuffing me in an underfunded prison for 6 hours a day and making my life a living hell if I dont do what you make me do is fair?

Cut your tired old morals out.
:lol: Have you ever even seen a prison, or Should I say juvey :P Don't ***** about something you've never seen...

Avtomat_Icaro

30th April 2007, 23:15

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 09:10 pm
Oh please. Stuffing me in an underfunded prison for 6 hours a day and making my life a living hell if I dont do what you make me do is fair?

Cut your tired old morals out.
Hmm, you're joking right? You want to go in an underfunded prison? Try smuggling drugs in South America, go in a little cell the size of a classroom filled with too many people, all of them ready to sodomize you day in day out. That's a living hell, not the ability to receive an education!

Old morals? Hmm Im such an old fashioned bastard for wanting people to actually study and get smarter. All the young trendy people just smoke weed all day and snort speed to get through the day...oh god you must be getting oppressed so badly by being forced to study :wacko:

P.S.: Just cuz Che said something, doesnt make it right. That's what most of us call hiearchy.
Hmm, I think Che's words are more useful to follow that the jibberish you are shooting out right now ;)

dez

1st May 2007, 00:54

No.
High school is totally compulsory.
University is less compulsory:
you still have to get in university via major, example law school have to do X classes. But inside there, you can have others too.
=D

And abt south american prisons, if you are dealing drugs usually you are in one big gang. That doesn't happen so often, unless you are a raper.
What happens is the random killing of people to reduce the people in the cell.

Avtomat_Icaro

1st May 2007, 01:53

No.
High school is totally compulsory.
University is less compulsory:
you still have to get in university via major, example law school have to do X classes. But inside there, you can have others too.

Oh well...I dont really see the problem in this. I think people overreact when they proclaim they are the oppressed of the world just because they have to follow math and English (or whatever language) class.

And abt south american prisons, if you are dealing drugs usually you are in one big gang. That doesn't happen so often, unless you are a raper.
What happens is the random killing of people to reduce the people in the cell.
Hmm you have to be a rapist in order to be in a big gang so you can deal drugs? :P

dez

1st May 2007, 02:23

no no, you don't get raped if you are in a big gang, except if you are a rapist.
And dealers are usually in gangs. Otherwise they are DEAD.
There are lots of trasvestis in prison, i guess it kinda lowers the rape count.
=P

tambourine_man

1st May 2007, 04:17

these are probably really obvious, but they got me through high school

for math and science tests, if you need formulas the easiest thing is just write them shorthand in pencil on your desk before the test and cover it up with your hand (put your head down on your desk or something) until the paper is passed out, and then move the paper when you need to. works for foreign languages and history too...conjugations, important dates, and stuff. this doesnt work if youre right in front of the teacher of course.

if they dont prohibit you from using the restroom during the test, you can hide notes in a corner of the nearest bathroom (sparknotes, formulas, etc) and get to them later... kinda like they hid the gun in the bathroom in the godfather lol (overrated film, i know)

passing notes usually doesnt work, and is really risky and anxiety provoking.

for multiple choice or short answer, make friends with the smart kids next to you and have them tilt the paper and write really big, that always works.

if you get caught, it's fairly easy to lie your way out.

remember to always cheat in any way you can get away with without risking getting anyone else who might be helping you in trouble...there is no joy in labor, so do as little work as possible to get by

edit:
unless youre talking about homework, too, in which case just copy your friends' before class. if you organize it well (you and a bunch of friends each agree to cover one subject each or something), you can save hours and hours (probably even days, cumulatively) of time that would otherwise be spent doing homework. i made it my policy to never actually do homework at home...afterall 8 hours a day is enough and anyway you dont owe anyone anything...

Sir_No_Sir

2nd May 2007, 02:46

I meant the prison thing metaphorically,obviously.

I've learned more teaching myself and on this forum and on links from fucking wikipedia then school.

Jude

2nd May 2007, 03:03

Totally. ffs, I had to educate my global teacher on the fact that the 5 year plans were not in the US!
And just because Che said or did something does not make it fact. TBH, I don't agree with alot of what Che did... but he was sooo sexy... :wub: :ph34r:

Sir_No_Sir

2nd May 2007, 03:33

I don't wanna be flamed again for saying 'im not gay' but...yeah, as a heterosexual guy, even i can notice how great the guy looked.

We werent reading 1984 in english, so lo and behold, I read it myself! I loved it, I could read fast or slow, at home or in a car, at school, whatever.

Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining.

Avtomat_Icaro

2nd May 2007, 08:00

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 02:03 am
Totally. ffs, I had to educate my global teacher on the fact that the 5 year plans were not in the US!
And just because Che said or did something does not make it fact. TBH, I don't agree with alot of what Che did... but he was sooo sexy... :wub: :ph34r:
I never said it made it fact...but I dont see whats so wrong with Che saying to students that they should study their asses off and dont come up with lame excuses so that they can be lazy.

OMG YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO STUDY??? OH NOEZ YOU ARE BEING OPPRESSED!!! :ph34r:

Question everything

2nd May 2007, 21:32

Originally posted by Avtomat_Icaro+May 02, 2007 07:00 am--> (Avtomat_Icaro @ May 02, 2007 07:00 am)
[email protected] 02, 2007 02:03 am
Totally. ffs, I had to educate my global teacher on the fact that the 5 year plans were not in the US!
And just because Che said or did something does not make it fact. TBH, I don't agree with alot of what Che did... but he was sooo sexy... :wub: :ph34r:
I never said it made it fact...but I dont see whats so wrong with Che saying to students that they should study their asses off and dont come up with lame excuses so that they can be lazy.

OMG YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO STUDY??? OH NOEZ YOU ARE BEING OPPRESSED!!! :ph34r: [/b]
GUERRILLA WAR!!! OVERTHROW THE BOURGEOISIE PRINCIPAL!!! STUDENTS OF THE SCHOOL UNITE!!!

:hammer: :che: :castro: :che: : :hammer:

PS. I'm being Sarcastic <_<

Fightin Da Man

2nd May 2007, 21:48

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 01:46 am
I meant the prison thing metaphorically,obviously.

I've learned more teaching myself and on this forum and on links from fucking wikipedia then school.
You'd learn more from school if you studied instead of cheating. ;)

Sir_No_Sir

2nd May 2007, 23:14

Originally posted by Fightin Da Man+May 02, 2007 08:48 pm--> (Fightin Da Man @ May 02, 2007 08:48 pm)
[email protected] 02, 2007 01:46 am
I meant the prison thing metaphorically,obviously.

I've learned more teaching myself and on this forum and on links from fucking wikipedia then school.
You'd learn more from school if you studied instead of cheating. ;) [/b]
I generally don't cheat, though.
I go to an average american school, not that good, and not bad, relatively.

This shit has radicalized me more then anything. I've heard over and over again that people NEED a government, and its not anymore true then saying the students NEED a school. In this day and age, we need a new kind of school system immediately.

which doctor

2nd May 2007, 23:42

Originally posted by Avtomat_Icaro+May 02, 2007 02:00 am--> (Avtomat_Icaro @ May 02, 2007 02:00 am)
[email protected] 02, 2007 02:03 am
Totally. ffs, I had to educate my global teacher on the fact that the 5 year plans were not in the US!
And just because Che said or did something does not make it fact. TBH, I don't agree with alot of what Che did... but he was sooo sexy... :wub: :ph34r:
I never said it made it fact...but I dont see whats so wrong with Che saying to students that they should study their asses off and dont come up with lame excuses so that they can be lazy.

OMG YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO STUDY??? OH NOEZ YOU ARE BEING OPPRESSED!!! :ph34r: [/b]
Isn't being forced to do something against your will the definition of being oppressed?

Sir_No_Sir

3rd May 2007, 02:44

Jude

3rd May 2007, 03:17

And rich sons of diplomats, who, b/c of their burden of an iPod, Benz, and Looey Vittawn, are bullied by those disgusting poor people.

Question everything

3rd May 2007, 04:12

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 02:17 am
And rich sons of diplomats, who, b/c of their burden of an iPod, Benz, and Looey Vittawn, are bullied by those disgusting poor people.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Fightin Da Man

3rd May 2007, 04:53

Originally posted by Sir_No_Sir+May 02, 2007 10:14 pm--> (Sir_No_Sir @ May 02, 2007 10:14 pm)
Originally posted by Fightin Da [email protected] 02, 2007 08:48 pm

[email protected] 02, 2007 01:46 am
I meant the prison thing metaphorically,obviously.

I've learned more teaching myself and on this forum and on links from fucking wikipedia then school.
You'd learn more from school if you studied instead of cheating. ;)
I generally don't cheat, though.
I go to an average american school, not that good, and not bad, relatively.

This shit has radicalized me more then anything. I've heard over and over again that people NEED a government, and its not anymore true then saying the students NEED a school. In this day and age, we need a new kind of school system immediately. [/b]
I agree that our school systems (like just about every other mainstream social institution) harbor major flaws, but I do think that students need schools of some kind. This is not to discount individual learning, but I think that there are many advantages to learning in a collective environment that one cannot get looking alone.

ahab

3rd May 2007, 09:10

NEW QUESTION: is praying before a test cheating? people who do ARE asking for help from an outside source

Avtomat_Icaro

3rd May 2007, 10:50

Originally posted by FoB+May 02, 2007 10:42 pm--> (FoB @ May 02, 2007 10:42 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 02:00 am

[email protected] 02, 2007 02:03 am
Totally. ffs, I had to educate my global teacher on the fact that the 5 year plans were not in the US!
And just because Che said or did something does not make it fact. TBH, I don't agree with alot of what Che did... but he was sooo sexy... :wub: :ph34r:
I never said it made it fact...but I dont see whats so wrong with Che saying to students that they should study their asses off and dont come up with lame excuses so that they can be lazy.

OMG YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO STUDY??? OH NOEZ YOU ARE BEING OPPRESSED!!! :ph34r:
Isn't being forced to do something against your will the definition of being oppressed? [/b]
So you only should do things you want to do all the time? I think the results would be quite shitty if life would be like that. Sometimes you have to work your ass off and you wont like it, but in the long run it would be beneficial.

No, silly, oppressed is doing something big that you dont wanna. Like, if a company pays their workers 14 dollars an hour, the workers aren't oppressed. Silly.
Thats exploitation... :rolleyes:

NEW QUESTION: is praying before a test cheating? people who do ARE asking for help from an outside source
Those people should be removed from the test because asking for outside help is fraud! :P

Sir_No_Sir

3rd May 2007, 21:00

Exploitation IS oppression.

I think we should have schools. I just happen to not think that they should be run by only adults, and I think kids should be able to take a fucking piss when we need to. Call me crazy.

Avtomat_Icaro

3rd May 2007, 23:08

Hmm...bla...Im getting creepy Battle Royale visions here of Japanese school kids wanting to take charge of shit...

tambourine_man

4th May 2007, 00:43

(avtomat_icaro)

So you only should do things you want to do all the time? I think the results would be quite shitty if life would be like that.

what a strange anticommunist thing to say

Fightin Da Man

4th May 2007, 01:05

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 08:00 pm
Exploitation IS oppression.

I think we should have schools. I just happen to not think that they should be run by only adults, and I think kids should be able to take a fucking piss when we need to. Call me crazy.
No. Exploitation is a distinctly economic concept. Oppression is not the same, and saying that it is sloppy theoretically and weakens the meaning of the words.

Jude

4th May 2007, 02:38

Someone post the definition of oppression, exploitation, education, and prison. FTR, I would, but I dont have a dictionary or a computer ATM.

Fightin Da Man

4th May 2007, 06:37

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 01:38 am
Someone post the definition of oppression, exploitation, education, and prison. FTR, I would, but I dont have a dictionary or a computer ATM.
Exploitation, in Marxist terms anyway, is the appropriation by the bourgeois class of the surplus value generated by labor.

Oppression is overbearing authority: lack of freedoms, undo restrictions, etc.

Avtomat_Icaro

4th May 2007, 12:34

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 11:43 pm
(avtomat_icaro)

So you only should do things you want to do all the time? I think the results would be quite shitty if life would be like that.

what a strange anticommunist thing to say
No wonder these so called communist states eventually collapsed or turned to capitalism then...

Life isnt fun all the time, sometimes you have to do shit you dont really like to go further. I doubt that in a communist society everybody would only do what they want, they will also do stuff because they have to. Somebody has to clean up shit or clean toilets...I doubt people are "yaaay I really want to be doing that right now!" its more "I'd better do it or else it will be a big fucking mess"...or would that be oppression too? :blink:

Question everything

4th May 2007, 12:40

Originally posted by Avtomat_Icaro+May 04, 2007 11:34 am--> (Avtomat_Icaro @ May 04, 2007 11:34 am)
[email protected] 03, 2007 11:43 pm
(avtomat_icaro)

So you only should do things you want to do all the time? I think the results would be quite shitty if life would be like that.

what a strange anticommunist thing to say
No wonder these so called communist states eventually collapsed or turned to capitalism then...

Life isnt fun all the time, sometimes you have to do shit you dont really like to go further. I doubt that in a communist society everybody would only do what they want, they will also do stuff because they have to. Somebody has to clean up shit or clean toilets...I doubt people are "yaaay I really want to be doing that right now!" its more "I'd better do it or else it will be a big fucking mess"...or would that be oppression too? :blink: [/b]
Yea, Sir No Sir, you are beginning to turn your idea of (anarchy I presume) in to on of those dime a dozen movie specials where the star wishes that all the parents would just dissappear then (s)he has some fun and does what ever she want but then realizes that somebody has to clean up the mess...

Basically what you are doing is turning anti-authoritarianism into a childish complaint.

Sir_No_Sir

4th May 2007, 23:31

Exploitation is a form of oppression, smarty.

Avtomat_Icaro

5th May 2007, 06:08

OMGZ!!! YOU ARE BEING OPPRESSED!!! Your parents must have oppressed you really bad when you were a little kid when they made you finish dinner...BUT YOU DIDNT WANT TO FINISH DINNER, BUT YOU HAD TO??? OPPRESSION!!!

tambourine_man

5th May 2007, 06:37

(avtomat_icaro)

No wonder these so called communist states eventually collapsed or turned to capitalism then...

Life isnt fun all the time, sometimes you have to do shit you dont really like to go further. I doubt that in a communist society everybody would only do what they want, they will also do stuff because they have to. Somebody has to clean up shit or clean toilets...I doubt people are "yaaay I really want to be doing that right now!" its more "I'd better do it or else it will be a big fucking mess"...or would that be oppression too?

of course any compulsory labor is oppression. when marx argued that "your work should be your life" he was specifically referring to the abolition of alienated labor via the abolition of the capitalist structure and its replacement with a free association of working people, which implies an entirely new conception of "work." the point of marxist communism isnt to minimize exploitation by means of "automation" (as some weirdo technocrats argue) or the implementation of socialist democracy, but to totally end it by means of an actual comprehensive, revolutionary integration of work and non-work life (read: doing what you want, when you want, how you want. or as marx said, the complete "affirmation of one's individuality in one's labor").
so what i get from your post is that you somehow prefer a system of compulsory labor (albeit, in your favor, probably a much more flexible and "humanized" form) to its "shitty" alternatives, and more importantly, that you truly expect the alienation of labor to persist in an actual communist society. i.e. you're a democratic socialist.

out of curiosity, which "communist states" ( :rolleyes: ) are you referring to?

"question everything,"
who can take you seriously when you try to illegitimize real-life experience by calling it "childish" (what does that even mean...?).
work sucks. being a student sucks.

dez

5th May 2007, 13:18

what about not being a student and being allienated by the elites that are?

Sir_No_Sir

5th May 2007, 14:03

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 12:18 pm
what about not being a student and being allienated by the elites that are?
That sucks too.

I just got suspended for 5 days for graffiti in my school.

How is speech "free" when it has restrictions?

Avtomat_Icaro

5th May 2007, 14:08

of course any compulsory labor is oppression. when marx argued that "your work should be your life" he was specifically referring to the abolition of alienated labor via the abolition of the capitalist structure and its replacement with a free association of working people, which implies an entirely new conception of "work." the point of marxist communism isnt to minimize exploitation by means of "automation" (as some weirdo technocrats argue) or the implementation of socialist democracy, but to totally end it by means of an actual comprehensive, revolutionary integration of work and non-work life (read: doing what you want, when you want, how you want. or as marx said, the complete "affirmation of one's individuality in one's labor").

Personally I dont believe that the whole "do what you want, when you want and how you want" would work. I doubt many people would go "yaaay I can scoop out shit from the sewers today!". Perhaps this is where the mandatory community service comes in, in a similar way to how Che Guevara tried to create a system of "voluntary labour" in Cuba after the Revolution.

"question everything,"
who can take you seriously when you try to illegitimize real-life experience by calling it "childish" (what does that even mean...?).
work sucks. being a student sucks.
Question everything...totally agree with that! (this means you also have to constantly question your ideology) But in order to go further in this questioning you need some basic knowledge. Sure education can be improved (and it should) but I think people are overreacting when they claim to be oppressed just because they have to do homework.

"Man has to suffer. When he has no real afflictions, he invents some."
-Jose Marti

what about not being a student and being allienated by the elites that are?
We are already alienated from the elites. Eventhough they try to cram it into our faces that their lifestyles should be the ones we all have to try to reach. (your basic MTV, celebrity lifestyle program indoctrination)

But what about this alienation?

out of curiosity, which "communist states" ( ) are you referring to?
The remark was more ironic. You claim that in a communist society you should be able to do whatever you want. I say that the idea of always doing what you want isnt possible, sometimes you have to do stuff which isnt too much fun for the community or your own life in the long term. I assumed that since its a communist thing to do waht you want the whole time, that the former communist states all had that and well since they collapsed...you fill in the rest. Not really a good argumentation since well...these former "communist states" werent that communist, more state capitalist and in case of the USSR even imperialist.

That sucks too.

I just got suspended for 5 days for graffiti in my school.

How is speech "free" when it has restrictions?
No...that vandalism, not freedom of speech...
You want to express your opinion, make posters or flyers, what about writing columns or other kinds of articles? Man...I would be pretty pissed off if some little shithead would graffiti my house! The thing is, if you want to do graffiti you just shouldnt get caught, but remember that its still vandalism, and you getting caught for it has nothing to do with freedom of speech, it has to do with the fact that you commited vandalism against public property.

Sir_No_Sir

5th May 2007, 15:57

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 01:08 pm
No...that vandalism, not freedom of speech...
You want to express your opinion, make posters or flyers, what about writing columns or other kinds of articles? Man...I would be pretty pissed off if some little shithead would graffiti my house! The thing is, if you want to do graffiti you just shouldnt get caught, but remember that its still vandalism, and you getting caught for it has nothing to do with freedom of speech, it has to do with the fact that you commited vandalism against public property.
He was actually remarking on the fact that a communist state is a contradiction.

If the property is public, isn't it mine, too?

tambourine_man

6th May 2007, 07:56

(avtomat_icaro)

Personally I dont believe that the whole "do what you want, when you want and how you want" would work. I doubt many people would go "yaaay I can scoop out shit from the sewers today!". Perhaps this is where the mandatory community service comes in, in a similar way to how Che Guevara tried to create a system of "voluntary labour" in Cuba after the Revolution.

well that was my point. you think that communism cant exist without compulsory, alienated labor. possibly because you for some reason cant comprehend a society in which work and non work life are totally integrated (one of the main goals of marxist communism). i would disagree and so would a lot of the modern communist movement.
compulsory labor is the inversion of life; your work time isnt your own time, and by proxy, all your time - your life - is regulated by somebody or something else, in capitalism the abstract forces of the market, in your democratic socialism probably the same backed by an ideology of pseudo christian self-sacrifice.

i'll quote a passage from marx's economic and philosophic manuscripts 1844 just cause he explains it better than i do, emphasis added:

What constitutes the alienation of labour?

Firstly, the fact that labour is external to the worker – i.e., does not belong to his essential being; that he, therefore, does not confirm himself in his work, but denies himself, feels miserable and not happy, does not develop free mental and physical energy, but mortifies his flesh and ruins his mind. Hence, the worker feels himself only when he is not working; when he is working, he does not feel himself. He is at home when he is not working, and not at home when he is working. His labour is, therefore, not voluntary but forced, it is forced labour. It is, therefore, not the satisfaction of a need but a mere means to satisfy needs outside itself. Its alien character is clearly demonstrated by the fact that as soon as no physical or other compulsion exists, it is shunned like the plague. External labour, labour in which man alienates himself, is a labour of self-sacrifice, of mortification. Finally, the external character of labour for the worker is demonstrated by the fact that it belongs not to him but to another, and that in it he belongs not to himself but to another. Just as in religion the spontaneous activity of the human imagination, the human brain, and the human heart, detaches itself from the individual and reappears as the alien activity of a god or of a devil, so the activity of the worker is not his own spontaneous activity. It belongs to another, it is a loss of his self.

(avtomat_icaro)

"Man has to suffer. When he has no real afflictions, he invents some."
-Jose Marti

to be honest, i dont really care about what jose marti thought. why is institutionalized suffering necessary?

(avtomat_icaro)

Question everything...totally agree with that! (this means you also have to constantly question your ideology) But in order to go further in this questioning you need some basic knowledge. Sure education can be improved (and it should) but I think people are overreacting when they claim to be oppressed just because they have to do homework.

i dont know why youre so concerned with some abstract irrelevent concept of oppression, when the real life fact is that most kids are bored (miserable and unhappy) to death in class, and are even more pissed off by the fact that it continues into their "leisure" time via "homework."
maybe you were one of those annoying kids in school who reminded the teacher when he forgot to assign homework and always raised his hand in class.

i dont know what "basic knowledge" you mean or what that implies about your views on compulsory education, how far it should go, etc. i do know that you dont need any academics or professionals to tell you when youre feeling bored sad or angry, or whether it's "legitimate" or not.

(avtomat_icaro)

No...that vandalism, not freedom of speech...
You want to express your opinion, make posters or flyers, what about writing columns or other kinds of articles? Man...I would be pretty pissed off if some little shithead would graffiti my house! The thing is, if you want to do graffiti you just shouldnt get caught, but remember that its still vandalism, and you getting caught for it has nothing to do with freedom of speech, it has to do with the fact that you commited vandalism against public property.

lol now you are defending bourgeois law which is of course based on the concept of private property??

dez

6th May 2007, 08:17

QUOTE
what about not being a student and being allienated by the elites that are?

We are already alienated from the elites. Eventhough they try to cram it into our faces that their lifestyles should be the ones we all have to try to reach. (your basic MTV, celebrity lifestyle program indoctrination)

But what about this alienation?

And doesn't education diminishes the effects of that allienation?
How easier would it be for the elites to allienate the people without compulsory education?

Black Dagger

6th May 2007, 08:58

Originally posted by avtomat_icaro+--> (avtomat_icaro)No...that vandalism, not freedom of speech...[/b]

What's 'vandalism'?

Originally posted by avtomat_icaro+--> (avtomat_icaro)
You want to express your opinion, make posters or flyers, what about writing columns or other kinds of articles?[/b]

If someone wants to express their opinion (and remain legitimate in your eyes?) they have to do so within the bounds of the law? Why is postering ok but writing (graf) not?

Originally posted by avtomat_icaro

Man...I would be pretty pissed off if some little shithead would graffiti my house!

What that does that have to do with the legitmacy of someone expressing themselves through writing? Its' not as if the primary target of graf artists are suburban homes.

Originally posted by avtomat_icaro

The thing is, if you want to do graffiti you just shouldnt get caught, but remember that its still vandalism

Again, why are you invoking this concept of 'vandalism'?

Why should people 'remember' that 'it's still vandalism'? Why the fuck should they care how other people moralise about it?

Oh noes, not VANDALISM~!!!! :o

[email protected]

and you getting caught for it has nothing to do with freedom of speech

Of course it does, just not in the bourgeois-liberal sense.

In capitalist society private and state property are sacred and ubiquitous - there's very little (to no) public space where people can express their creative energies... 'heaven' forbid someone chooses to violate the 'right' of property owners and actually does something with the boring, monotone urban landscape - or worse, covers up the advertising!!!

avtomat_icaro

it has to do with the fact that you commited vandalism against public property.

Public property?

I assume you mean property owned by the state?

If so, what's 'sinful' about violating the 'rights' of the state?

Question everything

6th May 2007, 15:30

"question everything,"
who can take you seriously when you try to illegitimize real-life experience by calling it "childish" (what does that even mean...?).
work sucks. being a student sucks.

I'm saying that Sir No Sir is trying to turn a privilege (education) in to a form of exploitation, he is trying to compare his "plight" of doing homework to that of a Child working in a sweat shop for a dollar a week, forgive me if I don't see a parellel, even in a post revolutionary society each perosn will have to do their fare share, even if that means doing what does not provide the most immediate pleasure...

Avtomat_Icaro

6th May 2007, 15:32

to be honest, i dont really care about what jose marti thought. why is institutionalized suffering necessary?
People seem to have grown weak and spoilt...you have to do your homework? OPPRESSION!!! To me it just seems as if people are overreacting because they have to do sometihng once in a while...

i dont know why youre so concerned with some abstract irrelevent concept of oppression, when the real life fact is that most kids are bored (miserable and unhappy) to death in class, and are even more pissed off by the fact that it continues into their "leisure" time via "homework."
maybe you were one of those annoying kids in school who reminded the teacher when he forgot to assign homework and always raised his hand in class.
Because people seem to use that concept so easily. All of a sudden we are all constantly oppressed. I remember reading a study on the happiness of teenagers throughout the world. Apparently American and British kids were the least happy of the bunch...

Let me guess, you were one of the kids who never did jack shit and then complained that you didnt understand the stuff you had to study so came up with a whole motive of being oppressed right?

Bla we're still talking about high school here...I did jack shit in high school, slept through most of the classes, hardly showed up but I passed...its easy! And fuck I saw what they do in American high schools...and damn thats even easier! So what the fuck are we whining about oppression, need to cheat and whatever else...just chill out and smoke a joint!

i dont know what "basic knowledge" you mean or what that implies about your views on compulsory education, how far it should go, etc. i do know that you dont need any academics or professionals to tell you when youre feeling bored sad or angry, or whether it's "legitimate" or not.
Basic knowledge, you know like the fact that each sentence starts with a capital letter. The word "I" is written with a capital letter as well. That kind of stuff...basic stuff. Who is talking about having people telling you how to feel?

lol now you are defending bourgeois law which is of course based on the concept of private property??
I doubt you would be allowed to spraypaint schools in a communist society. Not everybody likes your graffiti...

What's 'vandalism'?
Buy a dictionary...

If someone wants to express their opinion (and remain legitimate in your eyes?) they have to do so within the bounds of the law? Why is postering ok but writing (graf) not?
If I remember correctly postering isnt illegal...might be wrong here though since my knowledge on US law (I assume the little boy who got punished for making graffiti is American) isnt that great...

What that does that have to do with the legitmacy of someone expressing themselves through writing? Its' not as if the primary target of graf artists are suburban homes.

Why do you have to express yourself by destroying another's property? We dont live in a communist society yet so there is still something as private property, and you or whoever spraypainting some shit on it that you want a communist society isnt going to change a damn thing about it. It will just make you look dumb for making ugly graffiti. The guy was punished for making graffiti, not his expression. Dont mix those things up...

Again, why are you invoking this concept of 'vandalism'?

Why should people 'remember' that 'it's still vandalism'? Why the fuck should they care how other people moralise about it?

Oh noes, not VANDALISM~!!!!
We live in a bourgeoise dominated world right now, meaning that private property is protected. You try to vandalise (oh that word must really hurt your feelings) is by spraypainting it, which in their laws is illegal and if you get caught you get punished for it. It doesnt have fuck all to do with freedom of expression, but with the destruction of another's property.

Of course it does, just not in the bourgeois-liberal sense.

Ah you could only express yourself by making shitty graffiti (lets be honest, most graffiti sucks major balls!) on bourgeoise property? What a great revolutionary you are!

In capitalist society private and state property are sacred and ubiquitous - there's very little (to no) public space where people can express their creative energies... 'heaven' forbid someone chooses to violate the 'right' of property owners and actually does something with the boring, monotone urban landscape - or worse, covers up the advertising!!!

Hmm...most graffiti sucks, there are some artists out there who are good but most are just really...really sucky...I dont know how covering boring monotone urban landscapes with crappy graffiti is going to force the proletariat to rise up and create their communist revolution. <_<

Public property?

I assume you mean property owned by the state?

If so, what's 'sinful' about violating the 'rights' of the state?
Why "sinful", you try to intimidate me by using religious like remarks against me?

Question everything

6th May 2007, 15:47

Question everything...totally agree with that! (this means you also have to constantly question your ideology) But in order to go further in this questioning you need some basic knowledge. Sure education can be improved (and it should) but I think people are overreacting when they claim to be oppressed just because they have to do homework.

I'm agreeing with you...

Avtomat_Icaro

6th May 2007, 15:52

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 06, 2007 02:47 pm

Question everything...totally agree with that! (this means you also have to constantly question your ideology) But in order to go further in this questioning you need some basic knowledge. Sure education can be improved (and it should) but I think people are overreacting when they claim to be oppressed just because they have to do homework.

I'm agreeing with you...
Im sorry, I kind of got confused because somewhere you quoted me but made a remark towards Sir_No_Sir

And doesn't education diminishes the effects of that allienation?
How easier would it be for the elites to allienate the people without compulsory education?
Of course! Education is very handy at emancipating the masses, knowledge is power... Which is also the reason that the bourgeoise would like to see that only their own elite groups would have access to higher education.

tambourine_man

6th May 2007, 18:32

(avtomat_icaro)

People seem to have grown weak and spoilt...you have to do your homework? OPPRESSION!!! To me it just seems as if people are overreacting because they have to do sometihng once in a while...

mm so now working class kids who are understandably frustrated that their time and lives are being stolen from them under a system of compulsory education and, ultimately, compulsory labor, are "spoilt and weak."

(avtomat_icaro)

Bla we're still talking about high school here...I did jack shit in high school, slept through most of the classes, hardly showed up but I passed...its easy! And fuck I saw what they do in American high schools...and damn thats even easier! So what the fuck are we whining about oppression, need to cheat and whatever else...just chill out and smoke a joint!

i don't understand what exactly youre arguing here? that's the point of cheating...to make it easier to pass by doing as little work as possible and at least undermining the bourgeois idea that there is joy or strength in alienated labor...so as a result, among other things, you have more time to chill out and smoke a joint.

more importantly, the fact that it's easy - actually, that you personally find it easy (lots of people have a hard time graduating high school, i thought?) - is totally irrelevant to what we're talking about: you defend the "necessity" for compulsory, alienated labor...marxist communists don't.

(avtomat_icaro)

Basic knowledge, you know like the fact that each sentence starts with a capital letter. The word "I" is written with a capital letter as well. That kind of stuff...basic stuff. Who is talking about having people telling you how to feel?

idk if youre being serious or not, but what does mastering proper grammar and syntax have to do with "questioning ideology" and "taking it further" as you wrote before...? personally i wouldnt say that a totally illiterate kid, for example, has any less of an ability to know whats in his class interest - i.e. the implications of the oppression he really experiences daily - than a harvard graduate with a phd. maybe youre just a little elitist?

(avtomat_icaro)

I doubt you would be allowed to spraypaint schools in a communist society.

of course i would. and so would you!

(avtomat_icaro)

Why do you have to express yourself by destroying another's property? (emphasis added!)

LOL. :wacko:

Avtomat_Icaro

7th May 2007, 07:44

(emphasis added!)

LOL.
Might seem as a weird remark...but still...why? Its not like you are giving it back to the exploited or whatever...

mm so now working class kids who are understandably frustrated that their time and lives are being stolen from them under a system of compulsory education and, ultimately, compulsory labor, are "spoilt and weak."

I dont think we will be able to agree on this point I guess. Further debate is just useless because its you believing that kids are being oppressed for having to go to school while I believe that as a new generation of leftists and revolutionaries education is most important.

i don't understand what exactly youre arguing here? that's the point of cheating...to make it easier to pass by doing as little work as possible and at least undermining the bourgeois idea that there is joy or strength in alienated labor...so as a result, among other things, you have more time to chill out and smoke a joint.

But for some reason you seem to turn education in the same catagory as exploited labour. What do you suggest how we deal with that? Simply let everybody loose and fully pick what they learn? Math? English? (or any language for that matter)...Who needs to learn those...we would only oppress the young people if we made them learn those things right?

more importantly, the fact that it's easy - actually, that you personally find it easy (lots of people have a hard time graduating high school, i thought?) - is totally irrelevant to what we're talking about: you defend the "necessity" for compulsory, alienated labor...marxist communists don't.

Then in my humble opinion Marxist communists (by following your logic, and yes I know this will be pulled out of context) are naive! I think that there will always be jobs which need to be done but which nobody would want to do.

idk if youre being serious or not, but what does mastering proper grammar and syntax have to do with "questioning ideology" and "taking it further" as you wrote before...? personally i wouldnt say that a totally illiterate kid, for example, has any less of an ability to know whats in his class interest - i.e. the implications of the oppression he really experiences daily - than a harvard graduate with a phd. maybe youre just a little elitist?

Questioning ideology can only come when you know how to fucking read and write. So if you dont want to be alienated and decide not to learn how to read and write you wont be able to learn what exactly the ideology is. If you want your little happy Marxist communist little world, wouldnt you need to teach the kids about your ideology? Explain them Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc. Hmm but like stated earlier...I dont think you and I will be able to come to an agreement on that one.

of course i would. and so would you!
But would I also be allowed to graffiti over your stuff then? Would each person be totally free to graffiti whatever they want?

Sir_No_Sir

7th May 2007, 15:47

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 06:44 am
I dont think we will be able to agree on this point I guess. Further debate is just useless because its you believing that kids are being oppressed for having to go to school while I believe that as a new generation of leftists and revolutionaries education is most important.

i don't understand what exactly youre arguing here? that's the point of cheating...to make it easier to pass by doing as little work as possible and at least undermining the bourgeois idea that there is joy or strength in alienated labor...so as a result, among other things, you have more time to chill out and smoke a joint.

But for some reason you seem to turn education in the same catagory as exploited labour. What do you suggest how we deal with that? Simply let everybody loose and fully pick what they learn? Math? English? (or any language for that matter)...Who needs to learn those...we would only oppress the young people if we made them learn those things right?

more importantly, the fact that it's easy - actually, that you personally find it easy (lots of people have a hard time graduating high school, i thought?) - is totally irrelevant to what we're talking about: you defend the "necessity" for compulsory, alienated labor...marxist communists don't.

Then in my humble opinion Marxist communists (by following your logic, and yes I know this will be pulled out of context) are naive! I think that there will always be jobs which need to be done but which nobody would want to do.

idk if youre being serious or not, but what does mastering proper grammar and syntax have to do with "questioning ideology" and "taking it further" as you wrote before...? personally i wouldnt say that a totally illiterate kid, for example, has any less of an ability to know whats in his class interest - i.e. the implications of the oppression he really experiences daily - than a harvard graduate with a phd. maybe youre just a little elitist?

Questioning ideology can only come when you know how to fucking read and write. So if you dont want to be alienated and decide not to learn how to read and write you wont be able to learn what exactly the ideology is. If you want your little happy Marxist communist little world, wouldnt you need to teach the kids about your ideology? Explain them Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc. Hmm but like stated earlier...I dont think you and I will be able to come to an agreement on that one.

of course i would. and so would you!
But would I also be allowed to graffiti over your stuff then? Would each person be totally free to graffiti whatever they want?
But what kind of education are we receiving? Face it, I'm not going to be a biologist-I've never wanted to. I don't want to be a mathemitician, I've never wanted to. By the end of middle school, I knew enough to handle my own finances, have an intelligient conversation on most any topic, and I knew I wanted to write or do something in the arts. Why are you stopping me from going out and living my life as i see fit?

But for some reason you seem to turn education in the same catagory as exploited labour. What do you suggest how we deal with that? Simply let everybody loose and fully pick what they learn? Math? English? (or any language for that matter)...Who needs to learn those...we would only oppress the young people if we made them learn those things right?

No, everyone needs to learn the basics and what they need to get by, then at least have an education oriented towards what they wish to do. In fact, there was a prominent education organization in the US not long ago that came out in favor of this, having high school sophomores being able to start college.

Then in my humble opinion Marxist communists (by following your logic, and yes I know this will be pulled out of context) are naive! I think that there will always be jobs which need to be done but which nobody would want to do.
In a stateless society, people will most likely realize the need for said jobs...cleaning up, etc. and democratically take turns.

Questioning ideology can only come when you know how to fucking read and write. So if you dont want to be alienated and decide not to learn how to read and write you wont be able to learn what exactly the ideology is. If you want your little happy Marxist communist little world, wouldnt you need to teach the kids about your ideology? Explain them Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc. Hmm but like stated earlier...I dont think you and I will be able to come to an agreement on that one.
Like I said, a base education is obviously needed. However, why should one go through 12 grades of science when theyve always known theyve wanted to be a writer?

But would I also be allowed to graffiti over your stuff then? Would each person be totally free to graffiti whatever they want?
I never did shit on someones private property. And yes, feel free to write graffiti on my stuff. Just make sure its not shitty.

I think the most glaring problem though, is the structure of the modern day school.
Teachers lecture, kids listen and are taught not to question. Hell, I can get suspended now for disobeying a teacher. Disobedience. Every great change in the world has come about that way.

Avtomat_Icaro

7th May 2007, 17:21

But what kind of education are we receiving? Face it, I'm not going to be a biologist-I've never wanted to. I don't want to be a mathemitician, I've never wanted to. By the end of middle school, I knew enough to handle my own finances, have an intelligient conversation on most any topic, and I knew I wanted to write or do something in the arts. Why are you stopping me from going out and living my life as i see fit?
How old are you if I may ask? Why dont you then just drop out of school and try to survive out there and make your art and writing?

In a stateless society, people will most likely realize the need for said jobs...cleaning up, etc. and democratically take turns.

So then the alienated work and all that oppression of doing something they dont want to do still remains...and erm, isnt it a classless society?

Like I said, a base education is obviously needed. However, why should one go through 12 grades of science when theyve always known theyve wanted to be a writer?

Not everybody is like you that they know exactly what to do in first grade...

I never did shit on someones private property. And yes, feel free to write graffiti on my stuff. Just make sure its not shitty.

Thats the problem, shitty to you might be pretty to the other. If we all can randomly graffiti on everything I believe it kind of ends up like what we have today, but then legal...

I think the most glaring problem though, is the structure of the modern day school.
Teachers lecture, kids listen and are taught not to question. Hell, I can get suspended now for disobeying a teacher. Disobedience. Every great change in the world has come about that way.
We definately need a change in that system, kids should question, but they should also learn when and how to question.

Sir_No_Sir

7th May 2007, 18:36

How old are you if I may ask? Why dont you then just drop out of school and try to survive out there and make your art and writing?

Cant. Im 15.

[QUOTE]So then the alienated work and all that oppression of doing something they dont want to do still remains...and erm, isnt it a classless society?
I never said the definition of oppression is doing something you dont want to. Everyone would take turns, so yeah, everyone would be equal.

Not everybody is like you that they know exactly what to do in first grade...

Its not that Ive always known I wanted to be a writer. Ive just never really liked the sciences, so why the fuck should I go past a basic grasp of them?

Thats the problem, shitty to you might be pretty to the other. If we all can randomly graffiti on everything I believe it kind of ends up like what we have today, but then legal...
Of course, if it's legal, then people can practice, and people get better. Also, alot of people do the graff to be badass or whatever. Youd only end up with people who do it cuz they like it. And your right, my pretty is another's shitty.

Besides, I never did graff on private property. I did it on public property. What's so bad about that?

We definately need a change in that system, kids should question, but they should also learn when and how to question.
Question everything.

We can all agree that education is needed. And hopefully we can all agree that it needs to be changed from what it is now..

Sir_No_Sir

7th May 2007, 18:41

just ignore how shitty the quote thing is. my bad.

Question everything

8th May 2007, 12:15

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 06, 2007 02:30 pm

"question everything,"
who can take you seriously when you try to illegitimize real-life experience by calling it "childish" (what does that even mean...?).
work sucks. being a student sucks.

I'm saying that Sir No Sir is trying to turn a privilege (education) in to a form of exploitation, he is trying to compare his "plight" of doing homework to that of a Child working in a sweat shop for a dollar a week, forgive me if I don't see a parellel, even in a post revolutionary society each perosn will have to do their fare share, even if that means doing what does not provide the most immediate pleasure...
Please reply to This Sir NO Sir (although I did not directly address would like to hear you're response)

tambourine_man

8th May 2007, 15:57

youre right the debate is useless, as youve taken a bourgeois position on work, namely that compulsory labor is necessary and desirable, and an elitist position with regards to working class consciousness and action. anyway a few points before i finish.

(avtomat_icaro)

I dont think we will be able to agree on this point I guess. Further debate is just useless because its you believing that kids are being oppressed for having to go to school while I believe that as a new generation of leftists and revolutionaries education is most important.

But for some reason you seem to turn education in the same catagory as exploited labour. What do you suggest how we deal with that? Simply let everybody loose and fully pick what they learn? Math? English? (or any language for that matter)...Who needs to learn those...we would only oppress the young people if we made them learn those things right?

Then in my humble opinion Marxist communists (by following your logic, and yes I know this will be pulled out of context) are naive! I think that there will always be jobs which need to be done but which nobody would want to do.

Questioning ideology can only come when you know how to fucking read and write. So if you dont want to be alienated and decide not to learn how to read and write you wont be able to learn what exactly the ideology is. If you want your little happy Marxist communist little world, wouldnt you need to teach the kids about your ideology? Explain them Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc. Hmm but like stated earlier...I dont think you and I will be able to come to an agreement on that one.

i guess i would disagree. the new bourgeois ideology is fully realized, and experienced in everyday life as the worldview by which we are forced to live. that means that class consciousness results from the natural implications of everyday life experience - boredom, misery, alienation ...at work, at school, at home and in the shopping malls during our "leisure time" - not from what some old guy wrote over a hundred years ago. when youve just worked eight hours just so you can pay your rent and car insurance and go back the next day, you know something is wrong, you dont have to read das kapital.

reading marx, understanding the dialectic, etc. of course can help communists develop a new critique and new theoretical principles by which we can identify the modern forms bourgeois ideology has taken, and its infiltration into authentic revolutionary elements. the popularization of theory - into for example one line situationist slogans like "live without dead time," dada cinema, the manfiesto (back in 1848 or whenever), subversive comics - can help encourage working people to reconsider for a moment their daily lives. but thats the point, that real life experience is primary, not secondary to theory, or, in your case, ideology which is in no way a prerequisite to class consciousness and revolutionary action as youve suggested.

(avtomat_icaro)

If you want your little happy Marxist communist little world,

i appreciate the sarcasm, but id say that youre the one taking an idealistic position. you really expect a guy who has just sweated in a factory for eight hours to pass up his only consolations - alcohol and television maybe - to hear a sermon on surplus value? i know that between a full school and work day (and i only work part-time!) i wouldnt.

Sir No Sir, there is a song by the kinks called "yes sir no sir" that you would really like i bet, if you havent already heard it

Boriznov

8th May 2007, 21:44

Lol cheat when you have a dick for a teacher.

Sir_No_Sir

9th May 2007, 17:11

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 08, 2007 11:15 am

I'm saying that Sir No Sir is trying to turn a privilege (education) in to a form of exploitation, he is trying to compare his "plight" of doing homework to that of a Child working in a sweat shop for a dollar a week, forgive me if I don't see a parellel, even in a post revolutionary society each perosn will have to do their fare share, even if that means doing what does not provide the most immediate pleasure...
Please reply to This Sir NO Sir (although I did not directly address would like to hear you're response)
I don't think I ever compared it to being in a sweatshop. I compared it to a prison, by which I meant the general feeling of it.

And OF COURSE people still need to do what nobody wants to. Unless someone volunteers for it, everyone would take turns with watse treatment and shit that noone wants.

PS: You dont need to have ever heard of Marx to be a Marxist.

PSS: I've never read Marx. Does that make me less of a revolutionary?

PSSS: Fuck old dead people.

Question everything

9th May 2007, 20:17

Originally posted by Sir_No_Sir+May 09, 2007 04:11 pm--> (Sir_No_Sir @ May 09, 2007 04:11 pm)
Question [email protected] 08, 2007 11:15 am

I'm saying that Sir No Sir is trying to turn a privilege (education) in to a form of exploitation, he is trying to compare his "plight" of doing homework to that of a Child working in a sweat shop for a dollar a week, forgive me if I don't see a parellel, even in a post revolutionary society each perosn will have to do their fare share, even if that means doing what does not provide the most immediate pleasure...
Please reply to This Sir NO Sir (although I did not directly address would like to hear you're response)
I don't think I ever compared it to being in a sweatshop. I compared it to a prison, by which I meant the general feeling of it.

And OF COURSE people still need to do what nobody wants to. Unless someone volunteers for it, everyone would take turns with watse treatment and shit that noone wants.

PS: You dont need to have ever heard of Marx to be a Marxist.

PSS: I've never read Marx. Does that make me less of a revolutionary?

PSSS: Fuck old dead people. [/b]
I never said anything about Marx... :blink:

How ever I simply want to point out that Education is a privilige that many people would kill for...