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Blackberry
25th November 2002, 04:01
THE BOSS NEEDS US - WE DON'T NEED THE BOSS
COMMON SENSE REASONS FOR WORKER SELF-MANAGEMENT

HOW BOSSES GET RICH AND POWERFUL AT OUR EXPENSE

What do bosses do?
- Scheduling-Deciding when work needs to be done. Setting deadlines. This could just as easily be done by the workers themselves.
- Coordinating-Making sure that activities which depend on each other don't hold each other up. Making sure resources are distributed to those who need them. Often, the centralized control of resources is more of a bottleneck that keeps people from getting what they need to do their jobs. Much of this is actually done informally by the workers themselves.
- Accounting-This is a clerical job, counting the money you make for them.
- Budgeting-The actual cost estimates are done by those who do the work and only compiled by the manager. The manager then sets priorities.
- Staffing-Hiring, firing and assigning people to tasks.
- The less work a boss does, the more they are paid! This is because they are not paid for doing actual work. They are paid for how well they get others to do the most work for the least compensation. It also occurs because bosses tend to use their power to make themselves richer.

What do stockholders (Capitalists) do? Nothing!
- Capitalists buy part of a company ("stock" is a measure of ownership) and receive a portion of the value of what its workers produce (profit taken from workers called a "stock dividend" ) or rent their money to a company by buying bonds and are paid "interest." They do no work for this money outside of the kind of brain work a thief would use in choosing an easy victim.

Where do profits come from? You!
- The cost of running a business is the money spent for labor, machinery and tools, materials, rent, utilities, interest on loans, maintenance, and other services. The value of labor is the difference between the income of the business and it's non-labor expenses. Profit is the difference between the labor value and the money the boss actually pays the workers in salary and benefits.
- A bosses performance is usually measured by how much profit they can squeeze out of you. Many are paid in stock or profit-sharing to make them more greedy.

Having a boss is a dictatorship.
- Modern Bureaucracy was invented in Nazi Germany by a guy named Max Weber who patterned it after a military chain-of-command. Failure to follow orders results in discipline or being fired!
- Modern production was invented by Henry Ford who wanted to reduce the actions of the workers to the repetitive motions of machine and Frederick Taylor who wanted to minimize the number of motions to maximize the "productivity" of each worker. Bosses design work tasks to dehumanize workers.
- Many workplaces require you to work overtime. Many workers are paid a fixed salary (instead of by the hour) so they can be worked as much as the boss likes without paying them for overtime.
- Most workplaces discourage dissent, worker organizing or even asking questions of management outside of how to follow their orders.
- Many workplaces pretend to involve workers in decision making to get them to spy on each other.
- Many workplaces spy on their workers using time clocks, computer programs, hidden cameras, informers, and even private detectives. Some workplaces even limit the number of times and amount of time workers may spend going to the bathroom!
- Many workplaces now require workers to wear uniforms.

Bosses are inefficient!
- Many managers create unnecessary work or make you redo work "their way" just to justify their job or to make you think you have to go through them to get your work done.
- Many managers create "empires" of things under their centralized control so you can't get resources or information you need to do your day-to-day work. Without a boss, access to these crucial resources would be decentralized and made available based on need.

Bosses can get you killed!
- Work is one of the leading causes of death from accidents and health problems.
- Accidents occur when your boss tries to speed-up the work to increase their profit.
- Bosses try to cut costs by cutting safety measures and practices on the job.
- Jobs can be stressful due to overwork, harassment, competition, scheming, manipulation, etc. by bosses and co-workers who think they can kiss their ass to get ahead. stress will hurt your health, weaken your body and ultimately shorten your life
- "Accidents" at work kill people, but bad working conditions are no accident.

But workers need to be told what to do? Why?
- Workers get together on the job informally all the time to talk about how to do a job or solve a problem on the job. They don't ask the boss because he/she doesn't know how to do the work.
- Workers regularly get together with friends or family members to make decisions without the need for a boss. They go out to have a good time together. They plan vacations and road trips. They make "management" decisions all the time about their home and personal life.

But bosses go to school to learn how to be managers...
- Actually, most of them don't have degrees in business administration or public administration (MBA, MPA). Master's Degree programs in these fields teach accounting and Capitalist economics, but you won't learn anything about people or problem-solving which you don't already know from experience. What you learn is management and motivational theory: How to exploit people through psychology. Most managers (bosses) just have business degrees, at best, which is a degree in Capitalism: Banking, Accounting, Profiteering, etc.

But bosses create jobs... No!
- The boss only hires and fires you. Jobs are created because the boss sees a chance to get richer, but the amount of work involved is greater than what those who currently work for the boss can do alone. Bosses will do anything possible to avoid hiring new workers including assigning more tasks to each worker ("work speed-ups" ), buying machines to take workers jobs and paying overtime. Overtime costs a boss less than hiring a new worker, but the workers who works overtime actually gets paid less than that additional work after they pay income tax (it may even increase their tax rate).

But my boss is "nice"... Don't trust them!
- A boss is a boss.
- A "kindly" boss is still a BOSS. A "friendly" boss is still a BOSS. A boss who drapes himself in red flags is STILL A BOSS.
- The boss knows that their job depends on being able to exploit you. You can depend on them only to tell you what you want to hear. The boss you think you know and "trust" is a facade.
- If you work hard, they will work you harder.
- If you do a good job at work, they will criticize the quality of your work then take credit for it in from of their boss. They will use your work to get themselves a promotion.
- If there is a problem at work, they will tell their boss it's your fault.
- If you know more than your boss, they will try to get you fired or harass you so you will quit or make mistakes they can use against you to get you fired. They will tell you things like "I want to help you" or "you are overqualified". When you hear this, you will know the end is near.

But what if the boss is the owner?
- First of all, most small businesses are usually owned by the bank (through a mortgage or small business loan) and a landlord (most are in rented commercial property) who collect money from you through your boss for doing nothing.
- It is arguable that many small business "owners"/operators work harder than if they were working for someone else, but the chances are, even if they do, they still don't pay their workers for the full value of the work their workers do. The best evidence of this is that while you have to ride the bus to work, the boss owns a car. While you have to rent or share an apartment, the boss has a house. Obviously, you can't afford to live like your boss and even the hardest working boss doesn't do that much more than you do, to be equal to the difference in the money each of you get out of the business.

But, if I work hard and do what I'm told, I can be rich and successful...
- People who work hard and are smart at what they do are usually viewed as a threat by their boss because they probably know as much or more about the work than those in charge.
- Working for a boss isn't competitive. Chances are, if your boss want's to hire or promote someone, they will chose someone they think is like them or a friend, regardless of their qualifications.
- Take a look around you. How many rich people do you see? There aren't a lot compared to the rest of us. Now common sense tells us that if you subtract the majority of rich people who merely inherited their money, there are only a handful left and they all got their money from owning stock or property and not from honest work. At best, hard work can make you comfortable. At worst, it will make you sick and your boss rich! The best way to insure that you are working for yourself is to have no boss at all!

HOW WOULD WE WORK WITHOUT BOSSES?

How are decisions made?
- Workers are organized into working groups based on what they do (their tasks). Decisions are made democratically by those who do the work.
- Each group sends a representative to all coordinating meetings for their section of the workplace. Each section coordinating committee sends a representative to the coordination committee for the workplace.
- Representatives can be changed at any time by the group who chooses them. They have no authority over those groups.
- Conflicts are resolved through mediation and arbitration by someone neutral and impartial.

How is work organized?
- Working groups plan the work and divide up the tasks. Without a boss you don't have to wait for the boss to OK something, you just agree with your co-workers what needs to be done. Workers decide for themselves which jobs they wish to learn.
- Coordinating committees coordinate scheduling and the allocation of group resources to projects. It is also how working groups share information and find out what's going on at the workplace.
- The workplace coordinating committee coordinates budgeting and major functions like accounting, purchasing and sales so that production is based on demand for the products or services of the workplace.
- New workers are brought into a workplace when the current workers agree more people are needed.

How are workers paid?
- The workers decide how much of the income earned by their work goes to keep the business going and how much goes to them as compensation for their labor.
- Without "make work" from bosses, every job becomes equally necessary: both physical work and brain work. The workers may choose to each take an equal share or to pay everyone based on how many hours they work.
- Without stockholders and overpaid bosses, more money goes to those who actually do the work.

What about benefits?
- Without bosses, workers are no longer considered "expendable." Medical Care, Dental Care, Child Care, Disability, Vacation Time, Sick Time and Retirement are considered part of the cost of maintaining the workplace and are paid for out of the earnings of the workplace.
- The workplace also covers the cost of your tools, safety equipment and training.

What about promotions?
- Tasks are assigned based on your skills and abilities: what you know and can do. There is no "kissing arse' because no one tells anyone else what to do and people are paid based on their work and not their position.
- You learn on-the-job how to do more and more complex tasks. Self-managed workplaces have apprenticeship/internship procedures for new workers.
- The only "promotion" is in the area of responsibility. Since no one is in-charge, The working group gives the most responsibility to those they trust. The reward is personal satisfaction and respect.
- By doing away with the real parisites in the workplace (bosses), you have a lot more people to do the work and you can reduce the amount of work everyone has to do to be productive. This means that the workday can be shorter and more flexable and that work won't be as strenuous. People can also choose to work part time.
- Without a boss, the stress at work would be lower.

What about Shirkers?
- Shirking is usually a subconscious response to being exploited. Without exploitation, there will be less incentive to shirk off work.
- Those who still want to stand by and let their co-workers do the work while they do nothing, will be stealing from them. It is up to the workers to decide if and when someone's lazyness is unfair to the rest of them. Workers who try to live of the work of others while doing nothing will be kicked out of the job at the discretion of their co-workers.

(Edited by Neutral Nation at 4:03 am on Nov. 25, 2002)


(Edited by Neutral Nation at 4:08 am on Nov. 25, 2002)

redstar2000
27th November 2002, 00:52
I hope, probably unrealistically, that EVERY member of che-lives will read this excellent post. To know what we DON'T WANT is the first step to getting what we DO WANT.

Ymir
27th November 2002, 01:16
Good post.

timbaly
27th November 2002, 02:56
Well what more can i say besides, great post.

Man of the Cause
30th November 2002, 16:59
We need more posts like this, rather than the eternal Trotskyists vs. Stalinists posts.

Pete
6th December 2002, 03:32
I look at it. I read a bit of it. I realize I must print it and read it. After I realize this is a perfect way to cause problmes. I decide that i should maybe photocopy it and spread it around. Keep the literature moving. Increase the support. Is that not what is too be done for the Revolution from bosses to occur?

Lardlad95
7th December 2002, 17:14
Great post and if you were more famous or a professor or something I would quote you on that

Behind enemy lines
11th December 2002, 04:59
I'm going to print this out as well. Good propaganda comrade.

Pete
13th December 2002, 00:08
My history teacher is making like 60 copies to circulate. Isn't that crazy a history teacher who fights the system? Last year American History- "What really Happened VS The BS they say"

fightthepower
18th December 2002, 00:47
Comrade, that is, without a doubt, the greatest piece of work on the topic that I have ever had the priveledge of reading. I would love to read some of your other work, if it's possible.

And Comrade Man of the Cause, I agree with you fully. We should all spend more time concentrating on what binds us together rather than what minor divisions there may be within us.

I will print this off, copy it, and distribute it to my comrades, as well as the rabid capitalist imperialists that I'm cursed to spend nearly every waking moment with.

RGacky3
19th December 2002, 00:19
this truly is a good post, I really think more companies should be worker owned. Are there any now though, in the U$?

Valkyrie
19th December 2002, 00:23
Birkenstock in the US just recently became worker-owned..

Comrade Daniel
22nd December 2002, 09:49
I don't know any worker-owned company,
The post is great, I shall copy it and give it to my friends so they can talk about it with their famely...
GREAT POST.
We should have more of these.

Lefty
30th December 2002, 08:45
That was pretty cool, except for the part about "work is the leading cause of death because the bosses try to speed up the workers." That...yeah. Dur, Work kills. Be lazy. Fight the power.

synthesis
2nd January 2003, 08:48
I think he means the "speed kills" thing in terms of manual labor, i.e. bosses trying to meet a quota, speeding up the workers' production, which is more than their bodies can handle.

RGacky3
8th January 2003, 17:32
this is one way to have socialism in a capitalist system with out exploitation, have all the buisinesses worker owned. the only problem is still competition, there will be loosers, but I think this could be a good goal for american socialists, create more worker owned buisinesses. the question is HOW?????

Jaha
12th January 2003, 02:32
my business teacher would die reading this...

good work

bombeverything
12th January 2003, 05:07
That is awesome. I think I will print it off as well [and hang it up at work].

Cheers.

Anonymous
14th January 2003, 22:26
Il translate it and post it all over town, did i meantionedthis is a industrial town?

Sowjetmacht
16th January 2003, 06:00
Great post, Comrade! As a new poster I'm glad to see that we're pretty much all on the same page about workers' control of industry.

Will definately be looking for ways to use this to propagandize!

Weatherman
21st January 2003, 06:53
This is my first reply, I'm new to this site, but not new to Socialism. I think that was some awesome literature. Refelcting on my own slave driver I would have to agree that my boss has an innate "I am better than you, I am in charge". Workers without a boss would certainly have its place in a socialist society. If anyone wants to contact me; [email protected]

Larissa
8th February 2003, 12:23
Great post, Neutral Nation! Thanks!

"HOW BOSSES GET RICH AND POWERFUL AT OUR EXPENSE" Marx said it: through Capital Gain (or "added value" if you prefer) I don't know the technical term in English he used, but in Spanish was "Plusvalía".

(Surplus, I think)


(Edited by Larissa at 6:18 pm on Feb. 16, 2003)

RED PARTIZAN
8th February 2003, 12:46
Great insight....marvelous new propaganda !

bolshevik1917
16th February 2003, 11:08
Apparently a few factories in Argentina have been under workers control for a while now. Larissa, maybe you could shed some more light on this?

www.marxist.com/Latinam/Zanon_factory.html (http://www.marxist.com/Latinam/Zanon_factory.html)



(Edited by bolshevik1917 at 6:11 am on Feb. 16, 2003)

bolshevik1917
16th February 2003, 11:13
posting links is the blight of my life :angry:

http://www.marxist.com/Latinam/Zanon_factory.html

(Edited by bolshevik1917 at 6:14 am on Feb. 16, 2003)

Larissa
16th February 2003, 11:21
Quote: from bolshevik1917 on 8:08 am on Feb. 16, 2003
Apparently a few factories in Argentina have been under workers control for a while now. Larissa, maybe you could shed some more light on this?

www.marxist.com/Latinam/Zanon_factory.html (http://www.marxist.com/Latinam/Zanon_factory.html)

(Edited by bolshevik1917 at 6:11 am on Feb. 16, 2003)
Some time ago I posted a new thread all about it, I'll look for it and paste the link here.

Larissa
16th February 2003, 11:35
Found it...
http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=11&topic=2610 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=11&topic=2610)
Argentine workers take over factories.

Krobanikov
16th February 2003, 19:08
The one enemy within the workplace and the cause of division is the wage-scale.Why should one who picks apples be paid more than he who picks oranges?Why do people seek advanced education and training?in order to receive the highest income and thus feel superior to others.Of course such people will say that they must do so in order to survive due to the high cost of living,but this high cost of living they speak of is merely confirmation that they wish to live lavishly.
A standardized wage,socialized education,medicine,etc, and a scale-rate retirement would assist in the removal of this injustice.I witnessed myself as a miner the pompous attitude of other miners who would constantly talk of their homes,cars,vacations and high-living while mocking the poor,give a ditch-digger a fifty cents raise and he will begin to think himself better than the man he was the moment before.
Whenever each and every worker knows and is able to carry out his responsibilities at the workplace what cause is there for a boss or supervisor?The function of work administration can easily be regulated by councils periodically formed by groups of appointed workers to govern work relations thus eliminating the need for a boss.
From each according to his ability and to each according to his need stands as true today as when it was first uttered.

praxis1966
17th February 2003, 18:48
You people and your syndicalist rhetoric... I love it. I think Antonio Gramsci had the most to say on this topic; the actual practical implication of socialist theory. Might I suggest the book Hegemony and Revolution for more on the subject.

Pete
24th February 2003, 02:26
Larissa, the word is Surplus, as well as Profit.

My bosses have been working to keep us from helping eachother. Aswierd as that sounds. We are punished for it. It is almost irresistable not to put this on my head boss's desk!

Ze
27th February 2003, 18:32
Good post, but I have some criticism that I will reserve for a later time (im in a rush!)

RED RAGE
28th February 2003, 12:46
I have distributed this post to all of my friends email addresses and urge you all to do the same, make a chain mail of it so people can read it and see where we com from, what us communists are really talking about when work is related. I am also distributing these throughout my local city of Cambridge. I urge every1 to make a stand and make publically aware, what we as communists want! :cool:

temp0932
22nd March 2003, 20:11
Here are two interesting excerpts from a popular management textbook used in universities:

http://www.pc9.org/quotes/management1.html
http://www.pc9.org/quotes/management2.html

SwedishCommie
14th April 2003, 21:57
Great post!

Urban Rubble
21st April 2003, 09:27
As someone who is still forming his political beliefs this was a great post to read. It's exciting to know people are actually printing copies and distributing them, I will do the same.

Larissa
23rd April 2003, 00:58
Tomorrow I'll be joining the new gathering of the Brukman factory workers that have just been evicted from the place. We all hope to get Brukman restored to the workers. I'll keep you posted - or check the following link:
http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=11&topic=3507 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=11&topic=3507)

Donut Master
24th April 2003, 23:58
Excellent post, these are exactly the ideas I espouse. I would really like to see the creation of more worker-run businesses and cooperatives. It's one way you can actually work within the system, and still make a change. It's also a way to put your money where your mouth is, to put one's ideas into practice and prove that they work. There are already a few companies that work like this, but not enough at all.

This is also very good to print out as a pamphlet because it is convincing, and easily understood, by the average Joe. Nowhere does it go on a rant about socialism, so it will not be rejected by knee-jerk anti-communists who hold a prejudice against anything with "socialism" in the title. People would be more likely to read this and then actually consider the ideas - unbeknownst to them, they have just read an illustration of one of the main components of syndicalist economics!

187
29th May 2003, 22:20
"What do stockholders (Capitalists) do? Nothing!
- Capitalists buy part of a company ("stock" is a measure of ownership) and receive a portion of the value of what its workers produce (profit taken from workers called a "stock dividend" ) or rent their money to a company by buying bonds and are paid "interest." They do no work for this money outside of the kind of brain work a thief would use in choosing an easy victim."

This is untrue. Capitalists invest in companies providing them with crucial funds to start and maintain the business. Without investors, business would not survive.... In a Capitalist society.

And just becuase there is no visible hierarchy of bosses doesn't mean boss like people won't exist. I still think there would be a small group or individual that decides on everything, looked at as the "voice of reason" of the company.




(Edited by 187 at 10:28 pm on May 29, 2003)

kiwisocialist
3rd June 2003, 03:48
Brilliant post. this is where Marx's theory of a "Reserve Workforce" comes in.

kiwisocialist
3rd June 2003, 04:12
187

So investing money into a business, and then receiving more money as a result is your idea of work?

187
3rd June 2003, 16:39
"So investing money into a business, and then receiving more money as a result is your idea of work?"

Where would the business be without the funds given by the capitalists? They are owed something for their contributions, are they not?

kiwisocialist
4th June 2003, 04:20
NO THEY ARE NOT.

WE ARE DISAGREEING ON CAPITALISM OR NOT. YOU OR ATLEAST YOUR ARGUMENT IS PRO CAPITALISM.

INVESTING MONEY INTO A COMPANY AND THEN REAPING PROFITS AS A RESULT OF THE LABOUR UNDERTAKEN BY WORKERS IS THE EXPLOITATION OF MAN BY MAN. THIS IS AGAINST THE ESSENCE OF BEING A SOCIALIST AND PERHAPS ONE OF THE FEW THINGS EVERYBODY HERE WOULD AGREE WITH.

THIS IS A GREAT THREAD AND OUR DEBATE SHOULDN'T UNDERTAKEN HERE.

187
5th June 2003, 01:28
YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE ALL CAPS!

Anyway, if I find something to be erroneous in this thread I will address it.

There would be no place for the workers to work without the much neededfunding provided by capitalists. Don't lie, and say they do nothing. That's all. No more argument.

kiwisocialist
5th June 2003, 06:55
Sorry about the caps. Couldn't be bothered retyping it when i noticed.

Anyhow, as I said we are disagreeing on a very broad topic which would ruin this thread. I'll let it rest with you.

Morpheus
25th July 2003, 05:24
This is not a new article, it was taken from the anarchist website at http://www.anarchosyndicalism.org Anarchists have been circulating this article for many years; the ideas it advocates are basically the economic aspect of anarchism. Self-management is incompatable with the centralized planning traditionally advocated by most Marxists.

trudeaumania
17th August 2003, 19:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2003, 05:24 AM
Self-management is incompatable with the centralized planning traditionally advocated by most Marxists.
This is true. It was Che, who during a speech. Spoke of a history of the Soviet system under Lenin. The prevailing thought in Russia, when Communism came to power, was to immediately throw off anything capitalistic, concerning industry. When Lenin tried this it almost caused a second reveloution. (Industrial output fell) So the moral here is, that capitalism has one aspect worth looking at. In that the economic planning, motivatied by self interest, is an efficient system, for production output. But the trouble is, when there is no Centralized planning. When all planninng is done on just a Local basis, without taking into consideration, of the whole sphere of things. Then recessions, and depressions are the sure result. As we see in western economies. But Che's point was that the Marxist system would come about gradually. Do not throw off all capitalistic ways in the beginning, take down parts of the system, gradually. (and replace the old system with a better one.)--But to go to self management would, be a step in the opposite direction. It would be lazzie-fare. A system of no central planning, causing havoc during periods of economic swings. Over production and unemployment, would only be greater under self management.

truthaddict11
27th December 2003, 20:18
*bump* hope you dont mind but i think some of the newer members should read this thread too

Blackberry
28th December 2003, 00:43
Its original is listed in the following thread... http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...t=ST&f=6&t=6421 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=6421)

antieverything
2nd January 2004, 02:02
I've done plenty of reading on this issue so I think that I am somewhat qualified, if not to tackle a few of these issues once and for all, to at least clear up some of the grounds of this discussion.


There would be no place for the workers to work without the much neededfunding provided by capitalists. Don't lie, and say they do nothing. That's all. No more argument.

Where would the business be without the funds given by the capitalists? They are owed something for their contributions, are they not?

187's perfectly valid points are just being thrown aside with the basic "exploitation" argument. This argument completely misses the point of 187's statements. The right of a capitalist to profit can be upheld if this admittedly exploitative method of production can be proven to be the most dynamic, efficient, and mutually beneficial method. This is not the case, however. The function of the capitalist has become obselete. Workers have proven their ability not only to manage their workplace effectively (even by capitalist standards) but also to develop their own institutions for investment AND entrepreneurship through the development of cooperative banks (the best example is the oft-cited Mondragon cooperative corporation in Spain). Mondragon's investment bank has consistently been one of the top 100 lending institutions in the entire world though this is slightly unfair since it invests almost solely in new cooperative enterprises which are inherently superior to capitalist firms. :) So, 187, the capitalist's right to exploit can only be justified if there is no better alternative. Experiments in worker self-management have proven beyond doubt that there is. Aside from this, it is important to point out that the capitalist investment game for the wealthy is far less risky than they would have you believe. The "game" can be compared to a reverse-lottery where the output dwarfs the original imput. The system is rigged in favor of those who created it in the first place!


But to go to self management would, be a step in the opposite direction. It would be lazzie-fare. A system of no central planning, causing havoc during periods of economic swings. Over production and unemployment, would only be greater under self management.

Good points, trudeaumania, but I don't agree with your assumption of worker-controlled firms behaving the same as capitalist ones. Many of the destructive tendencies of a capitalist firm are mitigated when the system of control is changed. For example, because workers in a worker-run firm receive a percentage of the firm's profit instead of wages (the wage system is abolished) the tendency to expand is quite different. While capitalist firms expand until the market is saturated or until they begin to lose money by expanding (look at McDonald's today), worker-controlled firms expand only to the point at which they operate at optimal efficiency. This is to say that such firms would expand to the point at which profit per worker is maximized, thus worker-run firms have no monopolizing tendency. By extension, worker-controlled firms operating on a relatively free market would produce a system of competition superior to capitalist competition (the dynamic of the new system tending to foster many firms operating at optimal efficiency) without the cutthroat tactics seen in capitalist competition (since expanding beyond a certain point would cut into profit per worker). What we see is a market closer to the capitalist ideal than capitalism itself!

I strongly suggest anyone interested in the issue of the viability of market socialism based on worker-control read After Capitalism by David Schweickart. Simply an incredible book...I've read it thrice! :blink:

antieverything
3rd January 2004, 01:32
Comments? Disagreement? Death-threats?

STI
6th January 2004, 17:48
Comrade_James, do you mind if i put this on my website? (www.northernfaction.com please check it out).

Intifada
6th January 2004, 19:11
great post comrade james! :)