Transitional Socialism

[RNK]

A lot of you cappies have trouble understanding what the course of the revolution will be. Here's what Marx wrote in Principles of Communism concerning the actions to be taken during and immediately after a revolutionary takeover of power:

I) Limitation of private property through progressively heavy taxation, heavy inheritance taxes, abolution of inheritance through collateral lines

II) Gradual takeover of important economic sectors and land, partly through competition with state industry, partly through simply buying companies out.

III) Nationalization of foreign-owned economic assets.

IV) Organization of labour and employment of workers in publically-owned economic sectors, through state-run employment services and competition with private business (ie, by paying higher wages than private businesses).

V) An equal obligation for every member of society to work. State-run organization of mass workforces for various sectors, particularly agriculture (gotta keep the masses feeded!)

VI) Centralization of money and credit in the hands of the state through a nationalized bank with state capital; abolition of private banks and bankers (through means already explained)

VII) Large project to boost industrial capacity by expanding industry; building factories, workshops, railroads, ships, etc, and ensuring employment and workplace management for all.

VIII) Universal, free education.

IX) Emphasis on providing everyone with affordable and quality housing; construction of what Marx called "communal palaces" -- aka apartment buildings.

X) Destruction (and replacement) of all unhealthy, "jerry-built", low-quality housing.

XI) Equal rights of inheritance for children born in and out of wedlock.

XII) Concentration of the transportation sector in the hands of the nation.

So you see, transitional socialism need not be so violent as you righties seem to think it will be. Of course, there are bound to be problems; rebels, terrorists, extremists, radical righties etc will most likely attempt to engage in violent activities to stop this from happening, in which case they will be dealt with appropriately. But overall, private capital will be forced out through progressive and non-violent means, for the most part. Most of it can be abolished simply by engaging in offensive competition, essentially playing capitalists at their own game and bribing them into submission and forcing them out of business. Funny thing is, some of these ideas are already in place in many western capitalist nations; Canada, for instance, has state-run corporations that compete with private business (called "Crown Corporations", from back in the ol' monarchy days), though their aim is simply to provide money for the state, not abolish its opponents. Universal education (atleast up until college) also exists in much of the western world. "Apartment buildings", or "communal palaces", are a hit. And most states have an organized central bank (but again, its purpose is not to abolish private competition).

[pusher robot]

I'd be more inclined to believe that if fewer communists talked and joked about putting me in front of an execution squad, and if indeed that weren't what has actually happened historically.

[KC]

The funny thing is that past revolutions, such as the October one, for example, were for the most part nonviolent revolutions. The violence comes in when foreign forces try to interfere (i.e. the Civil War).

Also, you have to keep in mind what Marx said about the aforementioned list:


However much that state of things may have altered during the last twenty-five years, the general principles laid down in the Manifesto are, on the whole, as correct today as ever. Here and there, some detail might be improved. The practical application of the principles will depend, as the Manifesto itself states, everywhere and at all times, on the historical conditions for the time being existing, and, for that reason, no special stress is laid on the revolutionary measures proposed at the end of Section II. That passage would, in many respects, be very differently worded today. In view of the gigantic strides of Modern Industry since 1848, and of the accompanying improved and extended organization of the working class, in view of the practical experience gained, first in the February Revolution, and then, still more, in the Paris Commune, where the proletariat for the first time held political power for two whole months, this programme has in some details been antiquated. One thing especially was proved by the Commune, viz., that “the working class cannot simply lay hold of ready-made state machinery, and wield it for its own purposes.” (See The Civil War in France: Address of the General Council of the International Working Men’ s Assocation, 1871, where this point is further developed.)
-Marx, Preface to the 1872 German Edition of the Manifesto

[luxemburg89]

I'd be more inclined to believe that if fewer communists talked and joked about putting me in front of an execution squad, and if indeed that weren't what has actually happened historically.

oh there would be nothing political behind that, we just don't like you...

[wtfm8lol]

almost all of those things are impossible without the use of force, since most rely on heavy taxation. if i refuse to pay the higher taxes, which i would, i'm imprisoned at the very least.

[luxemburg89]

if i refuse to pay the higher taxes, which i would, i'm imprisoned at the very least.

whatever pal, if we were in power you'd be fucking terrified and do whatever we would say - in fitting with your view of a communist future. I do not want to use force (except against you and pusher robot) but understand its necessity.

[wtfm8lol]

whatever pal, if we were in power you'd be fucking terrified and do whatever we would say - in fitting with your view of a communist future. I do not want to use force (except against you and pusher robot) but understand its necessity.

why should i fear you? i would have no problem fighting and dying to keep you out of power. (although it's quite unlikely that any weak-minded communist could in fact kill me, so its not much of a concern for me)

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 05:47 pm
I do not want to use force (except against you and pusher robot)
So you don't want to use force, except against people you don't like. It appears that at the heart of this leftist lies a fascist.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 05:45 pm
almost all of those things are impossible without the use of force, since most rely on heavy taxation. if i refuse to pay the higher taxes, which i would, i'm imprisoned at the very least.
You have to pay taxes in any society. And the consequences for not doing so are always nasty. That is hardly a good argument.

[wtfm8lol]

You have to pay taxes in any society. And the consequences for not doing so are always nasty. That is hardly a good argument.

im not much of a fan of taxes anyway, but i'd be much less inclined to pay them if their purpose was to immediately destroy the stable system that provides me with what i need and want.

[luxemburg89]

You guys are so easily wound up

[Rawthentic]

If any of you parasites tried to destroy our worker power, you would at least be imprisoned.

[RNK]

Yeah, I would pretty much enjoy imprisoning you if you refused to due your duty to society.

[luxemburg89]

no let's not imprison them - lets kill them and stuff them - they'd look just perfect in my living room.

lots of love, Lux :D

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 06:06 pm
Yeah, I would pretty much enjoy imprisoning you if you refused to due your duty to society.
yes government systems founded on imprisoning and killing political dissidents always work out great in the end

[Rawthentic]

If you try to bring back the capitalist system while the working class is in power, why should you be let free?

[wtfm8lol]

If you try to bring back the capitalist system while the working class is in power, why should you be let free?

because once it's obvious that the new system is far worse than the original system, it makes sense to revert if possible.

[Rawthentic]

Yeah, wars, poverty, imperialism, starvation, discrimination, etc., are better than working peoples democracy, ownership of the means of production, freedom.

Ha, what idiocy of yours.

[wtfm8lol]

Yeah, wars, poverty, imperialism, starvation, discrimination, etc., are better than working peoples democracy, ownership of the means of production, freedom.

right. war, poverty, and starvation will just disappear as soon as you kill off everyone with experience in keeping the economy running.

[Rawthentic]

right. war, poverty, and starvation will just disappear as soon as you kill off everyone with experience in keeping the economy running.
It sure as motherfucking hell didn't disappear when they are in power, now did they?

By eliminating the profit motive and class antagonisms can this happen.

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 08:34 pm

right. war, poverty, and starvation will just disappear as soon as you kill off everyone with experience in keeping the economy running.
It sure as motherfucking hell didn't disappear when they are in power, now did they?

By eliminating the profit motive and class antagonisms can this happen.
but you can't eliminate "profit motive" you can only eliminate (or try too) the ways people seek profit.

[wtfm8lol]

It sure as motherfucking hell didn't disappear when they are in power, now did they?

what the hell does that matter?

[Rawthentic]

but you can't eliminate "profit motive" you can only eliminate (or try too) the ways people seek profit.
I don't want to get into a semantical debate. What I mean is that production control must be handed over to those who actually produce and create for their human needs. If you want to call this another way of seeking profit, be my guest.


what the hell does that matter?
You said:
right. war, poverty, and starvation will just disappear as soon as you kill off everyone with experience in keeping the economy running.

And I say that even now that you "experienced" people are in power, wars are a hallmark of this society and will continue to be doing so until capitalism is done for.

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 10:48 pm

but you can't eliminate "profit motive" you can only eliminate (or try too) the ways people seek profit.
I don't want to get into a semantical debate. What I mean is that production control must be handed over to those who actually produce and create for their human needs. If you want to call this another way of seeking profit, be my guest.
i don't see at all how that system would at all prevent people from seeking personal profit that doesn't have much to do with collective need.

[luxemburg89]

right. war, poverty, and starvation will just disappear as soon as you kill off everyone with experience in keeping the economy running.

Well we would have managed to displace them so they wouldn't have been very good at keeping anything running would they? *loads rifle* :P

[wtfm8lol]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 10:48 pm

but you can't eliminate "profit motive" you can only eliminate (or try too) the ways people seek profit.
I don't want to get into a semantical debate. What I mean is that production control must be handed over to those who actually produce and create for their human needs. If you want to call this another way of seeking profit, be my guest.


what the hell does that matter?
You said:
right. war, poverty, and starvation will just disappear as soon as you kill off everyone with experience in keeping the economy running.

And I say that even now that you "experienced" people are in power, wars are a hallmark of this society and will continue to be doing so until capitalism is done for.
wars aren't a hallmark of this society. wars are a hallmark of all of human history.

[KC]

wars aren't a hallmark of this society. wars are a hallmark of all of human history.

Actually, they're a hallmark of class society.

[wtfm8lol]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 26, 2007 10:52 am

wars aren't a hallmark of this society. wars are a hallmark of all of human history.

Actually, they're a hallmark of class society.
right, because no one ever fought over resources before classes developed.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by wtfm8lol+April 26, 2007 04:04 pm--> (wtfm8lol @ April 26, 2007 04:04 pm)
Zampanò@April 26, 2007 10:52 am

wars aren't a hallmark of this society. wars are a hallmark of all of human history.

Actually, they're a hallmark of class society.
right, because no one ever fought over resources before classes developed. [/b]
War as a formalised process was borne out of labour relations, military hierarchy is no different from any other kind.

[KC]

right, because no one ever fought over resources before classes developed.

War's completely different than fighting.

[wtfm8lol]

War as a formalised process was borne out of labour relations

do you have any proof of this?


War's completely different than fighting.

war is just organized fighting

[luxemburg89]

wars are a hallmark of all of human history.



war is just organized fighting

so by that definition would one group of monkeys fighting another be war?

[wtfm8lol]

so by that definition would one group of monkeys fighting another be war?

if the monkeys were organized and had a planned and set objective to accomplish in attacking the other group of monkeys, i dont see why not.

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 26, 2007 11:23 am

right, because no one ever fought over resources before classes developed.

War's completely different than fighting.
only because one is an organized attempt of society at fighting, just because there are no classes doesn't mean that societies won't be i conflict.

[bezdomni]

Here's what Marx wrote in Principles of Communism concerning the actions to be taken during and immediately after a revolutionary takeover of power:

Just a bit of pedantry...Engels wrote Principles of Communism.

[Question everything]

Originally posted by STJ+April 26, 2007 03:52 pm--> (STJ @ April 26, 2007 03:52 pm)
[email protected] 25, 2007 11:25 pm
no let's not imprison them - lets kill them and stuff them - they'd look just perfect in my living room.

lots of love, Lux :D
Sign me up i want one to. [/b]
ME too. I wouldn't mind Romantic Revolutionary's Head hanging off the Wall in my Room. :lol: