Islam

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

I hear loads of bad things about Islam(fundamentalism) from the media

Is it sexist? Is it violent? Is it oppresive?

Sorry i dont know much more than the very basics but as a leftist will listen openley and not judge. Although im an aetheist iv found myself defending Islam...with alimited knowledge

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Y Chwildro Comiwnyddol [email protected] 25, 2007 08:52 pm
I hear loads of bad things about Islam(fundamentalism) from the media



Yes . Communism is dead according to them(western media). So they needed a boogeyman so they took Radical Islam.


Is it sexist?

Islam in itself is not sexist but some Muslims are and some Muslims are not so painting every Muslim as a sexist is bigotry and racism.


Is it violent?

As much violent historically as Christianity and Hindusim.


Is it oppresive?

It depends. Some rulers who are also Muslims oppress their own people and others. Blaming religion itself is utmost stupidity. Historically many Muslim rulers were more tolerant towards others some of them are outrageously intolerant.



Sorry i dont know much more than the very basics but as a leftist will listen openley and not judge. Although im an aetheist iv found myself defending Islam...with alimited knowledge

Just stick to facts. Islam as a religion deserves no special treatment, but this bigotry against Muslims in the west should be opposed by the progressive people just like Homophobia,Racism etc.

[pusher robot]

Although im an aetheist iv found myself defending Islam

Beware. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. In fact, it probably isn't. Don't fall into the trap of defending the indefensible merely because your enemies attack it.

[KC]

Beware. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. In fact, it probably isn't. Don't fall into the trap of defending the indefensible merely because your enemies attack it.

I defend reality.

The fact is that no religion is more or less inherently violent or sexist or misogynist than the others, since it's all based on interpretation. Now, literally, the Qu'ran is just as violent as the Bible, so if you want to go on that basis then Islam is just as violent as Christianity.

[Orange Juche]

I don't really like some of the Islamo-sympathy that you see on the left. Its no less bullshit than Christianity or any other religion.

[Question everything]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 12:44 am
I don't really like some of the Islamo-sympathy that you see on the left. Its no less bullshit than Christianity or any other religion.
Still, it doesn't matter, Islam is simply turning the modern front for anti-imperialism, we have no more respect for the muslim religion than we do for Christianity, Buddism etc. but people who happen to be Muslims are fighting against US imperialism...



Is it violent?



As much violent historically as Christianity and Hindusim.

Even less then Christianity probably, if you look at all the crimes taken on under the cross.


QUOTE



Is it oppresive?



It depends. Some rulers who are also Muslims oppress their own people and others. Blaming religion itself is utmost stupidity. Historically many Muslim rulers were more tolerant towards others some of them are outrageously intolerant

Historically when the Islam was still a power (refering to of course the Medieval ages), it was much more progressive compared with backwards catholic kingdoms.

I say all this being raised catholic.

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 26, 2007 01:06 am
Still, it doesn't matter, Islam is simply turning the modern front for anti-imperialism, we have no more respect for the muslim religion than we do for Christianity, Buddism etc. but people who happen to be Muslims are fighting against US imperialism...
Just because they are fighting "U.S. imperialism" doesn't mean they are anti-imperialism, you know. In fact, if you don't think that they are trying to fight "U.S. imperialism" for the purpose of establishing their own brand of imperialism, I believe you are fooling yourself. In which case, you need to ask yourself if the cure would be worse than the disease.

[Question everything]

Originally posted by pusher robot+April 26, 2007 02:58 pm--> (pusher robot @ April 26, 2007 02:58 pm)
Question [email protected] 26, 2007 01:06 am
Still, it doesn't matter, Islam is simply turning the modern front for anti-imperialism, we have no more respect for the muslim religion than we do for Christianity, Buddism etc. but people who happen to be Muslims are fighting against US imperialism...
Just because they are fighting "U.S. imperialism" doesn't mean they are anti-imperialism, you know. In fact, if you don't think that they are trying to fight "U.S. imperialism" for the purpose of establishing their own brand of imperialism, I believe you are fooling yourself. In which case, you need to ask yourself if the cure would be worse than the disease. [/b]
They day Hezbollah becomes master of the new world order is the day Jazzrat becomes a dedicated Buddist.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

I find the level of anti-Muslim propaganda in the imperialist media to be amazingly blatant.

Anyhow, I'll try to answer the questions posed by the comrade at the start of this thread, in as much detail as possible.

One thing you must always keep in mind is this:

MUSLIMS are not necessarily the same as ISLAM, just as Christians are not necessarily the same as CHRISTIANITY.



I hear loads of bad things about Islam(fundamentalism) from the media

Is it sexist?

Yes, it is sexist, like any other religion.

At the time when it emerged, i.e. the 7th century AD, Islam was very progressive, and you could say that Islam's stance on women was revolutionary. For instance, Islam permitted women the right of divorce and the right to marry more or less freely, centuries before the Catholic Church did.
Islam also permitted women to own property, and the property and income earned by Muslim women was to be separate from their husbands. This right was not allowed to women in Britain until the late 19th century.

But yes, given the requirements and standards of modern society, Islam is indeed sexist, there's no denying that.

In this aspect, its no different from other religions. Islam does place patriarchal restrictions on women, and that makes it sexist for modern times.

But progressive Muslims often don't take into account the patriarchal aspects of Islam. So then again, a lot depends on their interpretation of Islam.




Is it violent?

No more than other religions.

We must go into some details here.

The Koran, which is the Muslim holy book, prescribes war against oppression. This can be interpreted in a progressive sense by Muslim supporters of liberation-theology.
It can also be interpreted in a reactionary sense by reactionary-fundamentalists like those in Indonesia, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Western right-wingers often accuse Islam of being a "violent" religion.
Now this accusation is completely different, and we must judge it based on its political motivations.

The Western right-wingers who accuse Islam of being "violent" are themselves the most violent murderers in the history of mankind. You'll notice that they are always supporters of the "war on Terror", which as we all know, is a convenient excuse for imperialist wars.

Western right-wingers would like Islam to be "peaceful", because:

(a) Muslim countries in the Third World are primary targets of NATO imperialism today, and it always pays to demonize "the enemy" (Muslims in this case).

(b) it would suit the interests of the imperialist war-mongers if Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon, Palestine and other places stopped their armed struggle against Imperialism.



Is it oppresive?

Yes, by modern standards, like any other religion, it is indeed oppressive in some ways.

For instance, Islam tolerates the institution of slavery (even though slavery is non-existent in mainstream Muslim societies). It is also not satisfactory in terms of civil rights.

But you need to understand that there are different interpretations of the same texts in Islam, and many modern Muslims (including most of the people among my family and friends) avoid following the more oppressive teachings within Islam.

I mean, its the same with Christianity and other religions too, isn't it? If every Christian started following Biblical teachings to letter, Christian societies would go back to the Middle Ages. :P

When Muslims take Islam too seriously, you end up with a Taliban-like state in Afghanistan.

Most Muslims do NOT follow their religion word-for-word, contrary to what the imperialist media tells us.



Sorry i dont know much more than the very basics but as a leftist will listen openley and not judge.

That is an excellent approach, comrade. If you're really interested, you could read the Koran and find out for yourself, and you could ask me for help in understanding the historical context of the text.



Although im an aetheist iv found myself defending Islam...with alimited knowledge


See, what I suggest is that you defend MUSLIMS instead of Islam.

The Western right-wing doesn't give a shit about Islam or how oppressive it is. For instance, anti-abortion Christian-fundamentalists who go on and on and on about how "badly" Islam treats women... Do you think they really care about fighting oppression? :D

No, its just their excuse for bigotry and hatred against MUSLIMS (not Islam).

That can never be tolerated by the revolutionary left.

To conclude, here is a great quote from LSD, who is a member (and Admin) on rev-left:


The reality of course, is that racist attacks against Muslims do happen. And if Islamist apologists restricted themselves to opposing those cases, there wouldn't be a problem.

Unfortunately, there is an emerging tendency in the left to view any attack on Islam -- that's the religion not the people -- as undesirable, whereas of course in reality, nothing could be further from the truth.

One sees this for instance, in the reticence of some leftists to recognize the burqa at an implicitly oppressive instrument. Indeed, some so-called leftists have even bought into Islamist propaganda to the degree that they propose that the burqa can be a symbol of female empowerment, if you can imagine such a ridiculous thing!

Nobody, not a single member of this board, believes that attacking Muslims or alienating Muslims is good tactics or good leftism. And aside from one individual poster, who doesn't even post here anymore, I don't think you can find a single example of anyone outside of OI advocating that we do anything but work with our Muslim comrades.

[yns_mr]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 25, 2007 04:57 pm
the Qu'ran is just as violent as the Bible, so if you want to go on that basis then Islam is just as violent as Christianity.
You seem to have read Qu'ran entirely...

[Publius]

You all should read 'No god but God' by Reza Aslan if you want a good, moderate look at what Islam actually is.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Islam in itself is not sexist

You are delusional.

2:222 They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.

2:223 Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).

4:15 As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).

33:59 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

64:14 O ye who believe! Lo! among your wives and your children there are enemies for you, therefor beware of them. And if ye efface and overlook and forgive, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.