Atheism and socialism

[yns_mr]

Does every socialist have to be an atheist as well? Atheism may be essential for an exact anarchism but what about socialism???

[RedAnarchist]

Not necessarily. Some socialists are not revolutionary and take part in elections and other bourgois politics. Many of them are religious. There are some revolutionary socialists who are religious, but these are a small minority.

Personally, I'm agnostic (not exactly the complete opposite of atheism, though) and an anarchist - most anarchists are atheist or agnostic. There are different anarcho-religious ideas floating around (see this wikipedia page - Anarchism & Religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_and_religion)).

When the time comes for a revolution, though, religious leftists will have to decied whether to continue to beleive in religion or not.

[yns_mr]

How wolud a religiuos revoluyionary affect the process of a revolution?

[RedAnarchist]

Because of two things -

1. The revolution would mark the end of organised religion. The religious comrade would have to choose whether to defend their religion or to attack its hierarchy.

2. If the revolution is anarchistic in nature, it will lead to the end of all authority, including any concept of a god(s). Again, the religious comrade would have to choose religion or revolution.

[Janus]

Socialist is a very vague terms these days and it'll depend on one's definition of it. However, there's really nothing that prohibits religious people from being socialists as well in the general sense.

Also, check out this pinned thread:
Communism and religion mutually exclusive? (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=6238)

[Zero]

For the most part, those who call themselves Socialists these days in the 3rd world are nearly as religious as Pat Robertson. Listen to Chavez and count how many times he thanks Jesus/God.

Of course as to wether or not these people are authentically Socialist is up for debate I suppose.

[freakazoid]

2. If the revolution is anarchistic in nature, it will lead to the end of all authority, including any concept of a god(s). Again, the religious comrade would have to choose religion or revolution.

Or... I pick both, :P


How wolud a religiuos revoluyionary affect the process of a revolution?

By helping it, by taking a very active part of it. At least I know I will.

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by freakazoid
Or... I pick both
But they're inherently contradictory, as has been pointed ut several times. You're undergoing a huge process of disavowal here, and it's intellectually dishonest.

[norwegian commie]

Religion is opressing the workers in all countries, and has done so since it's beginning. Alsoe religion stands in the way of a dialectical way of thinking and observing the history.

Religion traps the people in an oppressive society, they did so in the dark ages and they do so now. Religion maintans the thougt that now doesnt matar as long as we follow the word of god, and can the "rise to heaven"
That prevents people from revlting and changing their dailylife.

Religius groups has historically functioned in an higly conservative matter. The priests in Cuba fougt against the revolution or fleed the country. And in Spain the priests was a large problem as they turned inn the revolutionaries to the facists.

Religion is oppression. Socialism seeks to end oppression. You cant unite those two factors. They are contradictory.

[Wozza]

religion promotes the majority being ruled by a minority. this is unacceptable to anarchists and most socialists.

[Question everything]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 12:48 pm
religion promotes the majority being ruled by a minority. this is unacceptable to anarchists and most socialists.
...Dammit stuck fighting for the theists again... Theist don't nessecary believe that there must be organized religion... some of them think they can talk with the sky fairy directly...

[ichneumon]

and, of course, you always have the option of being religious and nontheist. organized religion may loose its grip, but spirituality is a part of human nature.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by TAKN+April 24, 2007 12:05 pm--> (TAKN @ April 24, 2007 12:05 pm)The revolution would mark the end of organised religion. The religious comrade would have to choose whether to defend their religion or to attack its hierarchy.[/b]
I'd like to point out that the list of religious people who attacked the organized religious establishments of their day includes, among others, Jesus of Nazareth and the Buddha.

Jesus came out strongly against the religious and political authorities of his day, so what exactly is the contradiction when a present-day Christian does the same?


Wozza
religion promotes the majority being ruled by a minority.
Really? How so?

The fact that some religious people and organizations are staunchly oppressive and anti-socialist (which is obviously true) does not imply that all religion everywhere and at all times must be anti-socialist.

On another note, I'm not entirely sure what people mean by "organized religion". Do you mean hierarchical religion (which I agree is bad), or do you mean any group of people who meet in some organized fashion for religious purposes? Both socialism and anarchism promote freedom of association, so what is the problem with religious people forming associations as long as they are egalitarian and revolutionary?

[Question everything]

Some Atheists here are as dumb as the theists... Religion is not automatically elitist, it is however a common side effect...

[yns_mr]

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 28, 2007 12:39 am
Some Atheists here are as dumb as the theists... Religion is not automatically elitist, it is however a common side effect...
i think atheism shouldn't be a must. If the aim is to cereate a free civilization, neither atheism nor any religion should be imposed on citizens and neither atheism nor any religion or morality should be encouraged.

[RevMARKSman]

but spirituality is a part of human nature.

Yeah, that (greed/spirituality) is an essential part of human nature that you (commies/anti-theists) just won't be able to get rid of.



O RLY?

[ichneumon]

Yeah, that (greed/spirituality) is an essential part of human nature that you (commies/anti-theists) just won't be able to get rid of.

would you end compassion? love? should we be robots? you can't change human nature, but we don't have to have a society based on greed. i don't want to live in a theocracy, but spirituality is natural.

btw, MARX DID NOT INVENT COMMUNISM. there were christian communists before marx, and they are still here today.

[RevMARKSman]

would you end compassion? love?

I'm sorry, these aren't "spiritual." they are caused materially and are natural human instincts.


should we be robots?

WTF kind of a word is "should"? Either way, the only reason I'd have to be happy as a robot is immortality. Without emotions, things get rather boring.


but spirituality is natural.

"A belief in the supernatural and/or unknowable is natural."

Someone else please notice the glaring irony.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by yns_mr+--> (yns_mr)Does every socialist have to be an atheist as well? Atheism may be essential for an exact anarchism but what about socialism???[/b]
No. It is not even essential for anarchism (though certainly desirable). (Also, when talking about socialism, I guess you are talking about 'narrow' socialism. I always include anarchism as part of the socialist super-set of ideologies.)


yns_mr
How wolud a religiuos revoluyionary affect the process of a revolution?It depends. If they were serious for the revolution, their religion would not affect it. If they were pacifist (either because of their religion (Quakers for example) or otherwise) it would obviously mean they wouldn't give violent support to the revolution.

I disagree with TAKN on this one. I don't think you do need to give up your religion, if it is compatible with anarchism. I am an atheist, and strongly anti-theistic as well. But I can see that it is possible to have a believe in a god or gods and still be anarchistic. Yes organized hierarchical religions will go, no, not all religions will. Take those religions where they say that the individual has to make up their own mind as to how to live. Or where they say that god will lead people to live good lives. (The Diggers and others have said this or similar.)

[ichneumon]

I'm sorry, these aren't "spiritual." they are caused materially and are natural human instincts.

oh, yeah - what is the material basis of consciousness? show me a testtube full of memory and love.

1)belief in the supernatural is normal. ask a psychiatrist. hard core atheists also have higher rates of suicide, depression and mental illness. take a prayer and call me in the morning.

2)i don't believe in anything that you would define as "supernatural" (which to me means things that sciences can't yet explain), but i'm very spiritual. most of the scientists i know and work with are spiritual in some way. deal with it.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 04:29 pm
1)belief in the supernatural is normal.
It's typical, yes. But that doesn't mean shit.


hard core atheists also have higher rates of suicide, depression and mental illness.
Well, perhaps if they didn't inhabit a society lorded over by silly ****s that insist on demanding they be spiritual people then they wouldn't be in that situation. That and they seem among the only people able to accept things like death without falling back on mythologies (reincarnation and the like).

take a prayer and call me in the morning.
So you're peddling the lie as the solution now are you?


2)i don't believe in anything that you would define as "supernatural" (which to me means things that sciences can't yet explain), but i'm very spiritual. most of the scientists i know and work with are spiritual in some way. deal with it.
Saying "deal with it" doesn't make you seem like a brave individual standing up for their beliefs and showing up all the "narrow minded squares" or whatever the fuck it is you're trying to achieve with that incredibly irritating turn of phrase. What it makes you look like is an immature little wanker who, unprepared to face the idea that people may not think that highly of their pet delusion, is attempting to make those arguing against them like people unable to cope with the idea they've just posited. That and, next to "like", "whatever" & "like whatever" it is one of the most tooth-grindingly infuriating examples of linguistic rape.

Oh and I hope you're not mentioning that your fellow scientists are spiritual in an attempt to subtly make an irrelevant appeal to their authority because we all know that would make your argument hollow and fallacious.

[ichneumon]

Saying "deal with it" doesn't make you seem like a brave individual standing up for their beliefs and showing up all the "narrow minded squares" or whatever the fuck it is you're trying to achieve with that incredibly irritating turn of phrase. What it makes you look like is an immature little wanker who, unprepared to face the idea that people may not think that highly of their pet delusion, is attempting to make those arguing against them like people unable to cope with the idea they've just posited. That and, next to "like", "whatever" & "like whatever" it is one of the most tooth-grindingly infuriating examples of linguistic rape.

Oh and I hope you're not mentioning that your fellow scientists are spiritual in an attempt to subtly make an irrelevant appeal to their authority because we all know that would make your argument hollow and fallacious.

i don't have to stand up for my beliefs - they stand on their own. and, realistically, the person i was talking is unable to deal with the idea that spirituality can exist within a logical and rational framework. thus, the scientists - lots, if not most, "rational" people have some degree of spiritual awareness or even active religion.

i was actually surprised by the atheism/suicide bit. if believing that you're going to heaven makes you sane in this life, isn't that a good thing? i don't really agree with the whole peddling lies bit, but still...if religion helps mentally unstable people lead better lives, it's better than a drug. shrink drugs suck. still morally iffy, though.


"A belief in the supernatural and/or unknowable is natural."

Someone else please notice the glaring irony.

does this strike you as a valid argument? it's misquoting me, yet still is obviously silly. humans in the "natural state" are usually riddled with superstitions, not that that was what i meant at all. i was stating that the sense of awe, the awareness of the sacred, is an emotion, and all humans are capable of it. besides, this guy's belief that consciousness is material phenomenon, is based on faith. there's no evidence for that - the jury is WAY out on the nature of the consciousness.

though i do apologize for the wankerism, i admit that it was childish.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Simply put, the Christian God believes in property "rights." (He owns heaven, etc.) Communism and anarchism are about the end of that.

[Question everything]

Originally posted by yns_mr+April 28, 2007 09:25 am--> (yns_mr @ April 28, 2007 09:25 am)
Question [email protected] 28, 2007 12:39 am
Some Atheists here are as dumb as the theists... Religion is not automatically elitist, it is however a common side effect...
i think atheism shouldn't be a must. If the aim is to cereate a free civilization, neither atheism nor any religion should be imposed on citizens and neither atheism nor any religion or morality should be encouraged. [/b]
it isn't I was a theist for a while on this site, it makes you slightly less popular but you're still a socialist, besides there are several christian (along with other religions) socialist movements, it's just the majority of the left is atheist.

[Rawthentic]

Communists are atheists, I can concede that socialist can be theists, but thats it. Mainly because communists are materialists.

[ichneumon]

Communists are atheists, I can concede that socialist can be theists, but thats it. Mainly because communists are materialists.

christian communism predates marx. look it up.

[Question everything]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 06:28 pm
Communists are atheists, I can concede that socialist can be theists, but thats it. Mainly because communists are materialists.
Christian Communists.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Question everything+April 29, 2007 06:39 pm--> (Question everything @ April 29, 2007 06:39 pm)
[email protected] 29, 2007 06:28 pm
Communists are atheists, I can concede that socialist can be theists, but thats it. Mainly because communists are materialists.
Christian Communists. [/b]
Libertarian National Socialist Green Party (http://nazi.org/)

Name's don't mean shit.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 06:14 pm
i don't have to stand up for my beliefs - they stand on their own. and, realistically, the person i was talking is unable to deal with the idea that spirituality can exist within a logical and rational framework. thus, the scientists - lots, if not most, "rational" people have some degree of spiritual awareness or even active religion.
It can't exit in a logical and rational framework. People who apply logic and reason to all kinds of areas with their life are still quite capable of being illogical and irrational in other areas - you would have to prove that their "spiritual framework" was entirely logical on its own without appealing to any of their other frameworks.


i was actually surprised by the atheism/suicide bit. if believing that you're going to heaven makes you sane in this life, isn't that a good thing?
Of course not, because you aren't going to heaven. That and it needn't be the case, if there was less spirituality people would be less inclined to believe that people who tell them they are missing something by not being spiritual are telling the truth.


i don't really agree with the whole peddling lies bit, but still...if religion helps mentally unstable people lead better lives, it's better than a drug. shrink drugs suck. still morally iffy, though.
Why is it better to labour under a delusion or misapprehension than to take some drugs? I've been on "shrink drugs" for a while before and while they aren't the best thing ever or anything I still feel it's better than being lied to about heaven.


though i do apologize for the wankerism, i admit that it was childish.
'sokay.

[ichneumon]

"spiritual" for me just means having a sense of awe about nature and life. it can't be true or false, it's just a feeling. spiritual people are open to religious ideas, they can meditate and experience "oneness", etc. many of them are dippy-hippy newagers, though. awe/unity is an emotion - i don't know how to explain it. i do know that i treasure it, and that my life would be much less without it.

telling people that death is the end, that there is nothing, is also a lie. the material nature of human consciousness is still up in the air, if it is even material. should i tell people "i have no idea what happens to your awareness after you die. one, i've never died, and two, i'm not you". that's actually typical shrink talk. i hate shrinks. paying someone to authorize a medicine i need to live is extortion - i won't do it. there is no public mental health care in the u$a, we let crazy people live under bridges. "the american institution for dealing with mental health problems is called 'homelessness'."

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by Juan Sin [email protected] 29, 2007 08:22 pm
Simply put, the Christian God believes in property "rights." (He owns heaven, etc.) Communism and anarchism are about the end of that.
Nonsense. When exactly did God ever say he owns heaven? And please take note of Jesus' extreme dislike of money and wealth.

[Question everything]

Originally posted by Edric O+April 29, 2007 08:59 pm--> (Edric O @ April 29, 2007 08:59 pm)
Juan Sin [email protected] 29, 2007 08:22 pm
Simply put, the Christian God believes in property "rights." (He owns heaven, etc.) Communism and anarchism are about the end of that.
Nonsense. When exactly did God ever say he owns heaven? And please take note of Jesus' extreme dislike of money and wealth. [/b]
The "Kingdom of God"... 'nuf said.

[RevMARKSman]

telling people that death is the end, that there is nothing, is also a lie. the material nature of human consciousness is still up in the air, if it is even material.

http://www.indiana.edu/~pietsch/split-brain.html
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness-unity/ (use the Find function to look at the section on the corpus callosum)

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by ichneumon
"spiritual" for me just means having a sense of awe about nature and life. it can't be true or false, it's just a feeling. spiritual people are open to religious ideas, they can meditate and experience "oneness", etc. many of them are dippy-hippy newagers, though.
Sorry mate, that sense of awe about nature and life is in no way directly linked to religiosity.

In fact, for me, it's diametrically opposed to it. See, the first time I felt that feeling of awe was in an anatomy lecture, when I realised that all this beautiful complexity had happened by evolution and natural selection, and a higher being was simply unnecessary and it was fucking elegant, and beautiful and sublime!

I know lots of scientists speak of feeling the same way at various points, so it's not just me. You could even make the csae that religion is a misplacing of the sublime moments we have when faced with nature.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by Question everything+April 29, 2007 11:44 pm--> (Question everything @ April 29, 2007 11:44 pm)
Originally posted by Edric [email protected] 29, 2007 08:59 pm

Juan Sin [email protected] 29, 2007 08:22 pm
Simply put, the Christian God believes in property "rights." (He owns heaven, etc.) Communism and anarchism are about the end of that.
Nonsense. When exactly did God ever say he owns heaven? And please take note of Jesus' extreme dislike of money and wealth.
The "Kingdom of God"... 'nuf said. [/b]
It's a metaphor.

Besides, the word that gets translated as "kingdom" was the generic word for almost any political entity in the ancient world. What else were they supposed to call it? "Republic" (res publica) is a Latin term that was unknown in the Middle East at the time when most of the Bible (specifically, the Old Testament) was written. And given the plutocratic nature of Res publica Romana, calling God's domain a "republic" wouldn't have been much of an improvement. Democracy was never known in ancient Palestine, so the phrase "Democracy of God" (Δημοκρατία Θεού, I suppose?) would have gotten a blank stare.

"Polity of God" would be a more accurate translation - and that would still be a metaphor.

[ichneumon]

mujer libre:


Sorry mate, that sense of awe about nature and life is in no way directly linked to religiosity.

In fact, for me, it's diametrically opposed to it. See, the first time I felt that feeling of awe was in an anatomy lecture, when I realised that all this beautiful complexity had happened by evolution and natural selection, and a higher being was simply unnecessary and it was fucking elegant, and beautiful and sublime!

for the eleventy-second time, religion =/= christianity. DAMMIT. "sublime" is just the word. i don't attribute that to any kind of god. it's part of humanity. it's spirituality, and it's very good for your psyche. it's only antithecal in your mind. most people see a sunrise and feel God, or Brahma or whatever. but we all feel it, and the feeling is the same.

revMARKSman:

i've known about that for ages, what are you trying to show? it shows that cutting your brain in half causes mental damage. duh. it doesn't even remotely indicate the material basis of consciousness - actually, the fact that the victim continues to be one person argues against it. rather strongly. the dysfunction is no more surprising than creating blindness by severing the optic nerve.

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by ichneumon
it's spirituality, and it's very good for your psyche. it's only antithecal in your mind. most people see a sunrise and feel God, or Brahma or whatever. but we all feel it, and the feeling is the same.

But putting the label 'God' on something like that feeling adds a whole bunch of other baggage. For example, it implies that God created or in some way caused the thing that inspired said awe. And that is essentially an irrational cop-out.

Something is amazing, therefore God exists.

Bullshit!

Also, do you have any evidence that spirituality is good for people? Perhaps it is 'good' for people because it helps them to cope with the status quo, which is shit, rather than inspiring them to think critically?

I mean, obviously things like meditating make people feel better, but let's distinguish that from belief in the supernatural, which only ever serves to distance people from reality.

[KC]

I don't get it; so because people can feel happy or in awe that means there's "spirituality"?

[Question everything]

Originally posted by Edric O+April 29, 2007 11:52 pm--> (Edric O @ April 29, 2007 11:52 pm)
Originally posted by Question [email protected] 29, 2007 11:44 pm

Originally posted by Edric [email protected] 29, 2007 08:59 pm

Juan Sin [email protected] 29, 2007 08:22 pm
Simply put, the Christian God believes in property "rights." (He owns heaven, etc.) Communism and anarchism are about the end of that.
Nonsense. When exactly did God ever say he owns heaven? And please take note of Jesus' extreme dislike of money and wealth.
The "Kingdom of God"... 'nuf said.
It's a metaphor.

Besides, the word that gets translated as "kingdom" was the generic word for almost any political entity in the ancient world. What else were they supposed to call it? "Republic" (res publica) is a Latin term that was unknown in the Middle East at the time when most of the Bible (specifically, the Old Testament) was written. And given the plutocratic nature of Res publica Romana, calling God's domain a "republic" wouldn't have been much of an improvement. Democracy was never known in ancient Palestine, so the phrase "Democracy of God" (Δημοκρατία Θεού, I suppose?) would have gotten a blank stare.

"Polity of God" would be a more accurate translation - and that would still be a metaphor. [/b]
So we Elect a new God every few years? Vote Budda.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 30, 2007 01:04 am
I don't get it; so because people can feel happy or in awe that means there's "spirituality"?
This is what I've been trying to eke out of ichneumon...

it shows that cutting your brain in half causes mental damage. duh.

Yeah. It destroys memories, language functions, etc. That means they're material, and some of that stuff is stored in the left hemisphere while some is stored in the right. I can't seem to find any studies about removal of the brain stem, cerebellum or the entire brain ( :rolleyes: )...

[Question everything]

Originally posted by RevMARKSman+April 30, 2007 08:43 pm--> (RevMARKSman @ April 30, 2007 08:43 pm)
Zampanò@April 30, 2007 01:04 am
I don't get it; so because people can feel happy or in awe that means there's "spirituality"?
This is what I've been trying to eke out of ichneumon...

it shows that cutting your brain in half causes mental damage. duh.

Yeah. It destroys memories, language functions, etc. That means they're material, and some of that stuff is stored in the left hemisphere while some is stored in the right. I can't seem to find any studies about removal of the brain stem, cerebellum or the entire brain ( :rolleyes: )... [/b]
So you think everything just goes blacks and you rot?... I think I was happier as a theist... but you're probably right :(

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

ichneumon

Do you have any evidence for the claim of increased suicides rates among Atheists?

I looked on the internet and nothing came up.

And, considering it would be a powerful argument for the religious right i dont imagine it would be so hard to find.

Secondly, its very hard to judge who is an atheist and who actually is religious. Because, while the majority of people do believe in god, in the UK, most of those people never go to church or read the bible.

So, they are not religious, they simply just believe in a god. They probably haven't given much thought about it thought, as its kinda boring for modern individuals.


the person i was talking is unable to deal with the idea that spirituality can exist within a logical and rational framework. thus, the scientists - lots, if not most, "rational" people have some degree of spiritual awareness or even active religion.

We discussed this a few months back and it turns out eminent scientists are overwhelmingly atheist.

what do you make of that?



humans in the "natural state" are usually riddled with superstitions, not that that was what i meant at all. i was stating that the sense of awe, the awareness of the sacred, is an emotion, and all humans are capable of it


By "natural state" do you mean ignorance or alienation? or maybe both? what is their natural state?




the material nature of human consciousness is still up in the air, if it is even material.

hahaha. When your brain stop receiving oxygen the cells are starved and begin to die. If this goes on for long enough then become vegetables. There still alive, but they no longer are conscious. You effectively have deleted it by removing a needed part of the brain for consciousness. Like taking a hard drive out of a PC, it will boot, but there will be no OS running.



telling people that death is the end, that there is nothing, is also a lie

Its an observable fact. After all, we know how humans are made, we understand how life is produced, its not a great leap to therefore understand that dying "un-does" the life that was made.

[RevMARKSman]

So you think everything just goes blacks and you rot?

Well everything goes black right before you lose consciousness, but after that there is nothing. Do you have any memories of WWII? No, because you weren't there. You weren't alive. When you die, you will have no sensory stimuli because your senses don't work. Your brain doesn't work. But if someone somehow "brought you back" after several days dead (theoretically of course), yuo would have no memory of being dead. One parallel for me was that I had an operation done on my stomach in which I was given a sedative. Apparently I was given a popsicle afterwards and had asked for orange flavor. I woke up a little later and didn't remember anything, so I kept asking for my popsicle that already came...

[ichneumon]

Do you have any evidence for the claim of increased suicides rates among Atheists?

I looked on the internet and nothing came up.

global look at suicide (http://www.med.uio.no/ipsy/ssff/suicidologi/2002-nr2/Bertolote.pdf)

Religion and stress article (http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/social_forces/v080/80.1ellison.html)

Mental Health, Religious Belief, and “The Terrifying Question” (http://www.springerlink.com/content/n66m64712k283x8h/fulltext.pdf)

try google scholar


We discussed this a few months back and it turns out eminent scientists are overwhelmingly atheist.

what do you make of that?

really, that's all anecdotal. even my point.




By "natural state" do you mean ignorance or alienation? or maybe both? what is their natural state?


natural state=pre-industrial revolution. an inuit hunter is not ignorant - he is a master of an advanced and complex technology. i'm not sure what alienation could mean in this context.



hahaha. When your brain stop receiving oxygen the cells are starved and begin to die. If this goes on for long enough then become vegetables. There still alive, but they no longer are conscious. You effectively have deleted it by removing a needed part of the brain for consciousness. Like taking a hard drive out of a PC, it will boot, but there will be no OS running.

how are memories stored? is there some chemical that is more present in an elderly person than an infant? how is it that you can split the brain in half, and still have one person? what is amnesia - where did the memories go? the human brain is fundamentally not at all like a computer. if you shove an iron rod through a computer, it dies. humans survive having this done to their brains with an integrated personality.


Its an observable fact. After all, we know how humans are made, we understand how life is produced, its not a great leap to therefore understand that dying "un-does" the life that was made.

yes, in fact, bodies stop working and rot. that's not the point. people want to believe that their awareness continues. what constitutes awareness is very up in the air - it may be a quantum phenomenon. personally, i'd guess that it is a quatum phenomenon, generated by the brain, but that it stops when the brain stops. i don't *know* this, but it's my guess.