god vs socialism - whether religion clashes with socialist i

[ravengod]

For all you socialists around the world!!!!!!!!!!
This is something that should really be taken into consideration, especially nowadays when people started again their belief in supernatural forces.
This tendency is somehow explainable as the world faced two terrible wars and tenths of clashes in different parts of the globe.
Faith has been brought up once again as an unique answer to all sorts of problems.

But the question still raises from deep down inside:
is socialism reallyincompatible with religion?
Yes I agree, communist leaders have supressed religionfor different causes, especially in order to keep people away from any other source of belief(except the leading party's propaganda of course).
Nowadays yet we all agree that socialist theory has not been accordingly applied.
Thus is religion so bad in implementing socialism?
Is there a socialist god?
Could socialism have survived if religion had been treated as it is nowadays?
Can we believe in God?

[anonymous]

could be but "what if" questions never get a straight answer.

[Jaha]

i could see a religious group going socialist. it wouldnt survive in my opinion.

or freedom of religion in a socialist nation? i could see that. so long as zealots didnt try to shake things up.

[Mazdak]

No it couldn't. Religion holds back progress and since socialism is progress, it is religions enemy. Being a religious communist is the same as an anti racist nazi.

[Kehoe]

This Jesus chap can be viewed as a revolutionary socialist,one of his disciples was named Simon the Zealot and Judas which was painted as the traitor belonged to an inner group of the Zealots called the Sicarrii that were known as political assassins and whose name is derived from the short swords they carried.Jesus spoke out against the establishment of the day ... the Roman Empire,and called for a more equalitarian society,no private property,shared communal houses,care for the very young,elderly,sick and handicapped.Jesus spoke of not lending money at interest,of those who hunger in order that another may eat,and that whoever stands ready to give would surely not hunger for want,for one that has no possessions or desires likewise has no need to kill.Jesus taught compassion,good deeds,and universal brotherhood.However,Jesus also taught the weakness of meekness,to turn the other cheek which only results in a full red face and a badge of cowardice.Jesus,in my opinion,was merely a literary device employed to teach a new form of higher ethics and were one to read the New Testament indepth they would soon discover not merely one Jesus but a myriad of Jesus figures,this is undoubtedly the result of various contributors and editors who each projected their own ideologies and religious imagery onto this mythical man.I read recently how that some people envision Che as Jesus with a machinegun ... it gave me a chuckle.Religion is the enemy of science,its a neurosis which unfortunately most must pass through on their way to maturity.Religion is based on fear,terror of the unknown,as well as a wish for a protector to stand by you in time of troubles and disputes,for a feeble man cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths.Bertrand Russell wrote concerning the conception of God as being one derived from ancient despotism,and as such is unworthy of free men.Napoleon himself said that religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich.Besides,what better to justify an earthly bossman than a bossman in the sky.Faith is a firm belief in something for which there is no evidence,when theres evidence no one speaks of faith,I myself have discovered that the more one knows of oneself the less they speak of God,and with that said I shall close this post with a commitment not to grace,in the future,any thread dealing directly with God and religion.

[antieverything]

Religious people ended slavery and others also tried to rationalize it till the end...the same goes for Jim Crow.

Religious people have crusaded against poverty while others also tought that it was God's plan.

Religion is everything that people are...good, bad, and everything in between. Religion has taken both sides in almost every great debate and religious people also tend to be the first to join the fight on either side.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that religion isn't contrary to Socialist aims, it can be parallel to them...It has in history been associated with them (remember the Social Gospel movement). It can be against them as well.

Also, Mazdak is an ass-doucher.

[Mazdak]

Quote: from antieverything on 2:06 am on Nov. 12, 2002
Also, Mazdak is an ass-doucher.

of course i am. Sure religion can be tolerated... but eventually it will become necessary to get rid of it.

Antieverything.. surely you have more to say than this. I have been here long enough to be a bit more than just an ass doucher.

[Umoja]

I believe that Socialism and Relgion are compatible. If we are all allowed freedom of thought and an eglitarian society, is it a problem to believe in a God who has created us all? We are all equal in accordance to "It" (I'll default to Hebrew "He" because they don't have a Neutral I believe). So, I don't think it's a problem. Christian Socialism has existed for awhile.

[redstar2000]

Maybe it would help to re-phrase the question. Can communism and astrology co-exist? Can one be a good communist and yet also believe in astrology? Should communist societies appoint and fund "official astrologers", set up "astrology colleges", build and maintain special "astrology buildings" with distinct architecture, etc., etc., etc.?

Should we do those things simply because a lot of people believe in astrology--in other words, should we follow an easy road to popularity?

Or should we say bluntly: no compromise with superstition! We will not endorse it; we will not fund it; we will not publicize it. In fact, we will prohibit the public exercise of it; we will tear down its buildings; and if we catch anybody taking money from people for astrological "predictions", we will charge them with a Class A Felony (Fraud). If we catch anybody teaching anyone under the age of 12 that astrology is true, that's felony child abuse. Anyone on a street-corner yelling at people about the virtues of astrology is guilty of a misdemeaner--disturbing the peace.

Get the picture?

Marx and Engels thought that superstitions would "wither away"...and, perhaps in the long run, they'll turn out to have been right. But our own era suggests that superstition is a very tough old bird...and needs to be fought HARD!

(I highly recommend the late Carl Sagan's book The Demon-Haunted World for good insight into the minds of the superstitious.)

[bolshevik1917]

This pretty much sums up my/our view on religion and socialism

http://www.marxist.com/Theory/marxism_and_...d_religion.html (http://www.marxist.com/Theory/marxism_and_religion.html)

Trotsky once said "If I were to begin all over again, I would try to avoid making this mistake or that mistake, but the main course of my life would remain unchanged. I shall die a proletarian revolutionary, a Marxist, a dialectical materialist, and consequently an irreconcilable atheist. My faith in the communist future of mankind is not less ardent, indeed it is firmer today, than it was in the days of my youth. The faith in man and his future gives me even now such power of resistance as cannot be given by any religion."

(Edited by bolshevik1917 at 11:58 am on Nov. 12, 2002)

[Umoja]

But isn't limiting religion a form of bias, and prejudice that typically exist in capitalism?

Prehaps this is only because I am a Democratic Socialist that this idea seems so foreign to me. It's okay to be Gay, straight, black or white, but belief in a Creator, when not forced upon others, some how goes against Socialist beliefs?

[Jaha]

does anyone here truely think they are infalable? does anyone here think for a fact they are never wrong?

no one can say for sure that religion is bad, no one can say it is good, really. it is merely a belief. if you start trying to control the beliefs of the people, then you have jumped from communism or socialism over to totalitarianism. totalitarianism is UNACCEPTABLE. no arguement. you do not free the proles only to lead their minds. freedoms must be enforced in a commune or else you are WORSE than the capitalism you fought off.

[redstar2000]

Jaha, I don't CARE what people "believe"...I'm just concerned with what they DO with that belief.

For example, believers DO try to force their beliefs on others; it hasn't been that long ago that public observance of religious ritual was COMPULSORY in WESTERN countries. As late as the early 1700s (I don't remember the exact year), a 21-year-old college student was HANGED for expressing his opinion that Jesus was not a god--this happened in SCOTLAND! Christians and Muslims are both explicitly commanded by their "Holy Books" to convert the heathen (that's ME), if necessary at sword-point. In the "old Testament", it's likewise plain that when the Yahvehists had the power to do so, they also converted people by force or else simply slaughtered them. Today's Hindu fundamentalists are up to the same tricks, etc. As far as I can tell, ALL religions preach tolerance until they sniff the opportunity to punish the "children of darkness" (that's ME again)...and then the knives are drawn and the hangmen are summoned.

I am not out to punish their beliefs; I am going to permanently deprive them of their knives and ropes...and the opportunity to spread their disgusting anti-human lies.

People can, for all I care, "believe" that murder and cannibalism are good things...but if they try to EXERCISE that belief publicly, they're going face severe consequences.

[Mazdak]

Redstar i agree.. but eventually, one would have to deal with this sort of scum the hard way. Communism cannot exist with the disunity and counterproductivity of religion in its midst.

[BOZG]

Will people please seperate faith from religion. One is authoritarian and non-progressive in communist terms while the other has no effect at all.

[Mazdak]

Faith is delusion. Therefore it is not progressive.

[suffianr]

Mazdak, if religion sucks so much, why was Stalin so cosy with the Russian church during the pivotal period of 1942-1944 during WW2? Why did he invoke their support? Don't tell me he needed to engineer a voter swing to influence the polls...

A socialist community can have people of diverse faiths and beliefs, it can still be functional and progressive, can't it?

Why? Why do you hate religion so much? (Yes, we've all been down this road!)

Mazdak, why is faith delusion?

[Umoja]

What's the difference between belief in God, and Belief in Socialism?

It takes faith to believe both of them will work, because both of them are based on writtings. Science is the main religion if you ask me.

[anonymous]

when you think about it atheism could be considered a religion, after all it is a belief or faith in the non-existence of a god or supreme being.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

The new religions are in a way revolutionary ideas they tell of giving to the poor and caring for your felow human beins.The problems that capitalism and politics can make anything corrupt even religion.

[anonymous]

yeah thats very true.

[Umoja]

People believe in stuff they can't prove regardless. I'm not saying that Christianity is right but hey, I know their was something that created the Universe, so therefore their IS a creator, be it God or a force (which one could argue is God anyway).

[RGacky3]

there was a few instances in the bible where the christians "held everything in common". or where things where given in and then destributed equally, or where "they all took acording to their needs". This sounds socialist to me.

[Gergely]

I'm not a supporter of Christianity but I don't condemn it for several reasons.
First I think people should believe in anything they want as long as their beliefs are not against mankind.
Second I think that in the Bible there are a lot of things people can learn from (brotherhood, ....).
Third: What gives a hardcore communist the right that his theory is the best in the world and that his views might save the world from whatever.

I think socialism and religions can work together very well since both sides are supporting similiar things (we've already heard about it in previous posts).

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

It depends where the world is at the time. It could be favorable for Socialism, unfavorable, or indifferent to its proggress. Like antieverything said, "Religion is everything that people are..." I agree entirely with this. If people are too liberal, religion will be oppressive, same thing the other way around. Even if it is not needed. I don't know, I might be wrong.

[timbaly]

I don't understand why people believe in religion. There is very little proof of any religion. I wouldn't want to ban religion under socialism, but I would try to convince people that it makes no sense and is always an excuse for power. I would hope that the people would agree that religion is nonsesne and I hope it will eventually die out. But I would never ban it, banning almost never works.

[Umoja]

The problem with saying Religion is illogical is that it can never truly dissprove, then again under my philosophy elves can never really be disproved.

[RGacky3]

socialism has nothing to do with religion and I don't think it should have anything to do with religion. Its an economic theory, and thats it.

[Iepilei]

socialism and religion are quite compatible - the only difference is people will have to realise that it is just nothing more than an elaborate story created to describe why the world is the way it is.

To condemn religion is to condemn philosophy, and it's modern equivialent - science. They all had grounds in explaining why we are the way we are. You'll notice all the questions answered by science are no longer explained through religion - yet the unanswerable ones (where do we go when we die? where did we come from?) are still covered.

It's a way to make people seem they have a grasp on the world. It's necissary for human life, untill a alternative concept can be rationalised.

Now, though I am against the destruction of religion, I am not against the destruction of fundamentalist groups and ideals. People must realised the difference between the world in which we live and the world that they create for themselves.

EDIT: Argh, sorry brain got ahead of my fingers)


(Edited by Iepilei at 5:16 am on Nov. 22, 2002)

[No God]

Religion was made to control the masses. Man made religion not a god. There could be force that we dont know about,but have you talked to him lately. His phone seems to be busy! Religion has no use it diverts the individual , so we should rely on ourselves. Socialism has no place for religion, look at all the nations now hiding behind their reilgions.

[Len]

I think Jesus had some pretty socialist ideas. don't judge people by their money, religion, race, or class. I'm a dedicated christian and dedicated socialist. I'm not a zealot, but I have strong beleifs. Jesus said you should accept other religions, but not support it. I don't support the the islamic religion, but I don't beleive it makes them bad people. religion doesn't determin your personallitty(usually). Some of my best freinds are muslim and their great people.

[Umoja]

I think it was Christianity that attracted me towards Socialism actually. I was sitting in Church one day and hearing a guy talk about how he didn't want to get a music degree cause he couldn't make enough money, and the lay leader of our Church said "Well money is very important." I felt pretty sick about what our society had done to Christian practices, and soon after I started to look up Socialist stuff.

[redstar2000]

"What gives a hardcore communist the right [to claim] that his theory is the best in the world and that his views might save the world from whatever?"--Gergely

In a word, EVIDENCE. In other words, NOT revelation, NOT a special visit from a supernatural being, NOT a visit by the "soul" to another, higher dimension.

Just ordinary evidence--what pretty much anyone who had the time and desire could gather for themselves. You don't need a "spiritual guru" to understand communism; you don't need to attend special meetings in special buildings to understand communism; you don't even need Marx and Engels to understand communism. With a couple of years of diligent study of capitalist economics and politics, you could arrive at a pretty fair approximation of Marxism.

The key to science (including Marxism) is that ANYONE can do it, if they want to. You don't have to be one of the lucky "winners" in "God's Lottery".

So it's really not a matter of "faith" in science or Marxism...it's something that can be VERIFIED as useful in explaining the real world.

Religion, on the contrary, can NEVER be verified--for no matter what happens, no matter how unjust it is, no matter how inexplicable it seems to be, it's ALL a matter of the UNKNOWABLE Mind of God. What puzzles me is not just that people "believe" that garbage, but that they actually WORSHIP that "DIVINE SADIST".

[Palmares]

Religion and socialism? People can believe what they may, but I think religion is backward. It does good, and bad. Religion is just a weird complicated drug.

By the way, what is an ass doucher?

[Umoja]

Sex is weird and complicated.

[Jaha]

to believe in a higher power is not bad. the human mind seeks out things to worship. people need to have faith in something. anything. what is bad is when zealots go ape-shit and religious leaders take advantage of power. religion gives power to individuals in a system where everyone is supposed to be equal.

holy wars and popes are the enemies of communism. not spirituality.

[redstar2000]

"the human mind seeks out things to worship"--Jaha.

Mine never did, but maybe I was just lucky. How and why did human minds decide to worship? We all know, at least crudely, the answer to that; humans worshipped natural phenomena that they didn't understand in the hope of controlling them. Pray in the right way to the Storm God and avoid getting hit by lightning or having a hailstorm ruin your crops, etc. (All the big-time gods got their start as storm-gods, by the way, including Yahveh.)

Well, we do understand natural phenomena now...and yet probably 95%+ of the human race is still mired in a habit that no longer serves any rational purpose. What is the point?

Marx and Engels thought that religion served as consolation to the victims of an unjust society...but what consolation is it that you know you're going to live a horrible existence and then die and go to "heaven"? If people REALLY believed that, then all of society's "losers" would commit suicide at once...why hang around for more shit?

I think it's time to "kick the habit" of worship. It serves no useful end that I can see...while providing endless excuses for unspeakable atrocities. "No hell below us," sang John Lennon, "and above us only sky." He was right!

[apathy maybe]

Edit.

[redstar2000]

"After all, if when you die you cease to exist, why not now rather than later?"

Well, right now, I'm having too much fun on the net to want to go right away.

The "laws" of probability (or chance) are funny things. Turns out there are a bunch of sites on the net that you can visit, answer questions about your "lifestyle", and get a statistical "prediction" on how long you will live. I went to three of them. The first said I would die at age 67. The second said I would die at 79.

The third said I had died in 1995...making me the ghost in the machine if there ever was one.

[Umoja]

Oh crap... Red Star IS the matrix!

[Man of the Cause]

I support Redstar in his oppinion of Religion. Religion was "opium of the masses" when Marx lived and still is. But I don't think that we should openly persecute religions, because that would only make religion stronger. We should simply turn churches and tempels in to public buildings (schools, hospitals etc.) and let the religious try to survive without any kind of aid from the goverment. They would perish in a couple of hundred years. And of course the Vatican State would be destroyed and the chuches would be turned into museums of the "Dark age of Religions and Superstitions".

[apathy maybe]

Edit.

[Man of the Cause]

"Yes and at the same time let us invade and destroy San Marino, Andorra, Monaco, Liechtenstein, Brunei, Tuvalu, Nauru, and all the other little independent states around the world. One shouldn't talk of destroying if one is so confident that it will die it self."

Of course I don't think that small independent states should be destroyed, it would be imperialism! But I think that Vatican is a religious dictatorship. Surely you don't think that the Pope is being elected by the people of Vatican? And as a socialist I condemn every dictatorship.

"There are many problems with many religions, however one shouldn't abolish churches and other places of worship unless one abolishes all places of worship, e.g. cinemas, sports stadiums, why not all TV's, people worship many things. Of course, also all religions have 'equal' place in western societies. At least in theory. I admit that countries with an official religion, they shouldn't have them. However, what if the vast majority of the populace supported it?"

First of all, religion is not going to be destroyed automatically. It needs a little push. Second, Stadiums, cinemas and such are used for entertaining purposes. When have you heard that a muslim (for example) went to a mosque to entertain himself? I respect religions as philosophies, nothing else. Religions today and in past are dogmatism at its worst, or as Nietsche described Christianity, "Platonism for the masses"



(Edited by Man of the Cause at 12:47 pm on Dec. 1, 2002)


(Edited by Man of the Cause at 12:56 pm on Dec. 1, 2002)

[Emmanual Goldstein]

I honestly don't have a problem with religion. Remember that many great socialists and defenders of the people, such as Gandhi, Paulo Friere and Malcolm X, were inspired by their religious faith.

and personally I don't care. I'm a socialist because I want to create freedom peace and justice on earth. if there's freedom peace and justice when I die, that's cool too.

[redstar2000]

Am, I think there's something to what you say: in present society people DO "worship" other things than "gods"--celebraties from the sports and entertainment media, politicians, self-proclaimed "holy men", etc.

Something NEEDS to be done to put a stop to this servility and I'm open to suggestions...that is, any suggestion that doesn't involve compromising with it or trying to "use" it for "good purposes". There's NOTHING "good" about servility, humiliation, or degradation. It totally contradicts the heart of communist purpose: human liberation.

Nor am I impressed by any arguments of the type "it's human nature to worship". Even if that could be PROVEN to be true (unlikely but possible), that is NO excuse. Cannibalism and rape might well be part of "human nature"--that doesn't mean we accept them. We STOP such behavior as best we can. At the very LEAST, we should create a sense of SHAME in those who voluntarily submit to the degradation of worship.

* * * * * * * * * *

As to merely closing religious buildings or converting them into museums or other uses, the Russians tried that and it didn't work. As soon as the heat was off, the god-suckers came crawling out from under their rocks, and within weeks of the end of the USSR there were parades carrying icons of "St. Nicholas the Martyr"--the last czar of the old Russian Empire.

Religious architecture is "propaganda in stone" and needs to be utterly destroyed. The empty sites afterwards can be used for any purpose; I would favor public parks, since most cities have far too few green spaces. But regardless of use, one should be able to live one's daily life without having to see monuments to torturers, murderers and witch-burners...just as one should be able to live one's daily life without having to watch someone eating shit. Both are equally disgusting!

* * * * * * * * * *

I'd also like to say something about the "disobedience to tyrants is obedience to God" type of argument. The fact that one can find, here and there (it's rare), examples of people who fought for liberation with religious motivations is, I think, mostly a case of people who are/were confused.

Think, for example, of the American abolitionists, MOST of whom operated from religious motives; they believed that "slavery was an abomination in the eyes of God"...though the only slaves freed in the Bible are the Hebrew slaves in Egypt--the "good" Lord neglected to free all the Egyptian slaves in Egypt. Elsewhere, the Bible accepts slavery as perfectly normal. There is NO commandment: Thou shalt not hold thy brother in chains. Nowhere in the christian gospels is a word raised against slavery; even though a guy who can "raise the dead" ought to find braking chains a fairly easy task.

I'm aware of so-called "liberation theology"--there are jewish and muslim variants, by the way; it's not just a christian thing. I think they ALL fall into the catagory of "save what can be saved and dump the rest"--that is, save the worship of god and obedience to his self-proclaimed servants and get rid of everything else that people will no longer accept anyway. I admire their cleverness but I am NOT fooled.

If you think that John Brown, Martin Luther King Jr., and Malcolm X were great fighters for human liberation, I won't dispute the point...except to ask you how much MORE they might have done had they been atheists and communists?

Or would you like to argue that they would have done LESS???



(Edited by redstar2000 at 1:55 am on Dec. 2, 2002)

[Umoja]

Malcolm X surely would have done less. His education in Prison came from his submission to the will of God. He would have been nothing but a drug dealer without the Nation of Islam.

[tommyt1alacrana]

Umoja, what do you know of drug dealing?

I won't tollerate such superficial statements against this man. I admit, I have yet to study the man yet this I know. He was murdered by his own, for like those before him he was nothing more of an experiment.

My guess is that you also believe Martin Luther King to have died for his public stand of unity among the blacks and whites, no? bah! It was his involvement in the labor movement that sealed his fate.

[redstar2000]

As far as I know, tommy1 is RIGHT about King...he was murdered in Memphis while organizing support for a VERY militant sanitation workers' strike. I think there is some evidence to support the contention that King was beginning to move SHARPLY leftwards in his last years.

The idea that "finding god" or "allah" will stop drug dealing is funny...because when you get into the religion racket, you're just dealing a different kind of drug.

[Umoja]

Malcolm X was in prison for drug dealing. He was a big time street huslter, and admitted to it. Read his Autobiography before you say that I'm wrong. Infact, he used pot heavily, and may have even done some Coke on the side.

Dr. King was admirable not only because of his religion though, but the fact that he questioned it. That's a virtue if you ask me. People who follow blindly are the problem, people who follow for knowledge aren't.

[lifetrnal]

Religion is something that is intense and personal. If we wish to fight against it, I do not believe we will ever win. Besides, the ultimate goal here is human freedom. We can not now, nor ever advocate a postion where we say, "you can not believe". We might as well say, "You can not think". I do not want to live in such a world. That being said, I understand where the anti-religion part of the movement comes from. Religion has been used for thousands of years as an insturment of oppression. That we can stop, that we must stop. People must come to understand that religion is an exercise in mutal-respect. They must understand that it is intensely personal for EVERYONE who is a believer.

[Kehoe]

Religion is by no means merely a negative element ... men and women have been inspired by religion and reformed their personal lives and became great contributors to a better humanity.Macolm Little read and learned the definitions of the dictionary while in prison and converted to Islam by which he transformed his persona and once he began to move away from the hardline racial stance of the Nation of Islam under the honorable Elihah Mohammed and began to embrace all mankind(white as well as black)he was murdered by members of the Nation of Islam.

I believe that for certain individuals who profess socialism to take such a biased stance against people of faith is no better than any other form of prejudice and exposes such people for what they really are ... ignorant bigots ... plain and simple. - Karo

[Moskitto]

notorious gangster Chris Lambrianou who was convicted for a gangland murder along with the Cray twins was in rather a bad mood in prison, throwing things around his cell, smashing up furniture, until he found a bible, because he'd never seen one and had nothing better to do he read it,
those who knew him were amazed by his transformation in the next few years and he is now working at a rehabilitation centre for drug addicts.

[redstar2000]

Good for Chris!

Is there a prisoner in the U$A so stupid as NOT to be aware that "finding God" is as close as dammit to a "get out of jail free" card before a parole board???

Malcolm X certainly didn't make any brownie points with HIS parole board by converting to Islam--HIS conversion was sincere, ill-advised in my view, but certainly sincere.

But "finding Jesus"? I'll be honest with you; they get me in their prison and I'll be the biggest holy roller on my cell block...UNTIL I get released. Then I'll go back to giving the bastards the hell they've got coming.

[Umoja]

That says something about the justice system.....

[red warlock]

salut Bogdan!your old communist friend Andrei here>.what's up,comrad?
I agree with you because people need the church and it's a secondary way to turn them to morality and obedience...We must think that a future communist state must must think religion as a method to educate the masses to ethics and the subordonation to the supreme force..u see what happened in Romania if The church was banned....people rebelled...their religion is a basic need, like water..satisfy this need and they won't rebel..
good day,comrad!
viva la revolucion!
red warlock

[Umoja]

I don't agree with Red Warlock and I'm a Theist, thats kind of scary..... but seriously, religion is the best way to teach values, and in those religions where all people were intentionally made by God, the idea of equality is even stronger.

I really gotta stop posting here, before you guys make me go into a religious Zeal and become a 7th Day Adventist or even worse.... A CATHOLIC! Oh my Lord! I said the C word!

[JoYKiLLaH]

IN response to the very first post ;

I was born, raised catholic im 14 and I'm currently attending gr 9 in a catholic school.

Most likely I will be in a catholic school for high school.

Being raised catholic ment : Batism all the way to Conformation (last step before priesthood or marrage).

However: I feel myself to be atheist. If you read my joke in my sig, thats kind of how I feel. Some teachers and shit talk about how religon makes you feel more complete, that's all bullshit to me.

Religon is just a way for people to either be more greedy, feel accepted, blaim things on, or confrontate with people.

It's all bullshit in my opinion.

I am socialist, on way to communism as I learn more and more. You may say, he's just 14, etc. But I know what I am and where my morals and values and political opinions lie. My answer is religon is shit, I believe socialism shouldn't have it but thats dictating and I can't change that so I'm happy with what I got.

That's just my opinion

[redstar2000]

Good post, JoYKiLLaH. DON'T apologize for your age...there are some here FAR older than you who could and should learn from you!

"religion is the best way to teach values"--how so? Are we supposed to do good because "God" commanded it or because we fear the fires of "Hell"? Are values not self-evidently worthy and, if not, just how valuable are they?

"in those religions where all people were intentionally made by God, the idea of equality is even stronger."--it certainly is NOT.

Are the "chosen people" equal to the various peoples they conquered and slaughtered? Are muslims "equal" to unbelievers? Are christians "equal" to the heretics they've tortured and murdered?

Quite the contrary, EVERY religion makes a SHARP distinction between the SAVED and the DAMNED...and guess who gets the shitty end of the stick?

I suppose we can thank Red Warlock for his doubtless well-meaning advice: should we communists ever desire to establish a murderous despotism like that of Roumania, we should definitely keep in mind the usefulness of religious belief...we wouldn't want them to rebel against our "supreme force", would we?

At this point, I'll have to stop and take some anti-acid pills--my stomach is beginning to churn in response to "arguments" of this "quality". :shocked:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 10:21 am on Dec. 6, 2002)

[JoYKiLLaH]

good post,

god is a way for some people like priests to dictate us, religon is corupted noawdays. wars start cuz of it

holy wars are gay.
religon is about non-violence, and these idiots start wars saying there religon is better. Without religon, it's one less reason to stir shit up

[Umoja]

Well... I suppose that is my personal faith. It doesn't work as a blanket statement. I listen to what a minister would have to say, because he has an education not because he is somehow chosen, and I would still dismiss parts of it. Religion is about self growth, not affecting others, even though it may be corrupted to be like that.

Religion has been given a bad name, just like Communism has been given a bad name. Are either of them flawed because of some mistakes in the process? No, of course not, anything organized by humans is going to be flawed, making the flaws smaller and smaller is the true achievement.

[apathy maybe]

Edit.

[JoYKiLLaH]

Good points made there comrade, relgion isn't bad, but for me, it seems like it does to much fucking bad than it does good, so i choose not to believe

[redstar2000]

"religion has been given a bad name just like communism has been given a bad name"--sounds reasonable until you look at the TIME involved. Religions have been around 5,000 years (at least); the Communist Manifesto is just over 150 years old.

To put it crudely, who's got the WORSE track record here?

"You can't abolish religion, look at what happened in Russia." The Russians didn't abolish religion; they tried but not hard enough. Specifically, they didn't demolish ALL the churches.

Of course, killing people BECAUSE they're religious would be both cruel and stupid. NOBODY advocates that! And it's not even NECESSARY.

All that's NECESSARY is that it be removed from public life altogether. Don't see many Zeus worshippers around these days, do you? Think it might have something to do with the fact that all of his temples were shut down and all the public ceremonies in his honor were abolished?

What people (13 or older) do in the privacy of their own homes is of no interest to me; they can "worship" a pair of dirty gym shorts for all I care.

As it happens, NO ONE KNOWS what Yeshua ben-Yosif (Jesus) taught; the "gospels" were all written at least 40 years after his death and pretty much said whatever the particular author wanted "Jesus" to say. There was no way, then, to go back and "look it up".

Yes, the mis-use (abuse) of drugs and alcohol has no doubt fucked up numerous lives; the appropriate use of drugs and alcohol has doubtless made many lives more pleasurable or, at least, endurable than would otherwise be the case. I realize I cannot speak for others, but the proposition that some superstitious camel-fucker has the right to tell ME not to have a drink because Muhammed the Illiterate said so is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!

Do people "need" religion as a "crutch" and therefore it's ok? Why shouldn't we rather teach people how to walk without crutches?

Wishing for a world WITHOUT conflict is pointless; a world mostly without VIOLENT conflict is, I think, attainable. But it certainly won't happen as long as people persist in the conviction that their special version of "God" gives them to "right" to shit on everybody else.

When people are deprived of their illusions, they do indeed complain most bitterly. But, as Marx pointed out, to attack illusions (religion) is to attack a world that REQUIRES illusions...a necessary step towards CHANGING IT. :cool:





(Edited by redstar2000 at 6:28 pm on Dec. 7, 2002)

[JoYKiLLaH]

I also believe that no conflict is impossible (and i mean impossible, unless there was all of 15 people alive, even then thered be conflict), but u can step down on violence.

As for religon, you could make it a private thing, stead of going to church for preeching from some man or woman, u do it on your own, no dictating.

[Umoja]

Who says Communism will work? 1900 Years ago I would have thought Christianity would become the only religion. Comparitively they both have a rocky foundation.

[red warlock]

You will understand that that the church can be a perfect organ to control people...Comrade,friend we are talking about a future communist state..we must avoid the errors of the past..we will need perfect control over the people directly and indirectly....believe me I thoght a lot about this topic and the idea of inserting the church in the future comunist state..
good day,comrade
viva la revolucion!
red warlock

[redstar2000]

"who says communism will work?" Well, I think it will. I think there are some people who agree. But the only thing we really have to go on is argument and evidence. After what happened with Russia and China, I can certainly UNDERSTAND people saying fuck it, it won't work. Perhaps it will take the future failures of capitalism AND some much better ideas from communists to really convince people that it's worth another try.

1,900 years ago, christianity had a lot of competition. It still does. Of course, if they REALLY start raising the dead again...(heh heh).

red warlock, I'm not sure how to put this, but you have evidently absorbed ALL the worst lessons of the pseudo-communist regime in Romania. Communism is NOT about the "control" of people, perfect or imperfect! It is NOT about using religion or ANYTHING ELSE to manipulate people into supporting us or agreeing with us or, most of all, OBEYING us.

Communism is about the self-liberation of the working class. You MUST do something about those power-fantasies that you are suffering from.

[Umoja]

So, we are close to reaching a common agreement on this issue Redstar? Something can not be judged fully by it's past failures, if the core values still exist..... or something like that.

[JoYKiLLaH]

that applies to almost everything

You cant judge a book by its cover, or in this case, its past.

[redstar2000]

JoYKiLLaH's response is to the point...you can always say that past failures MAY be overcome in the future in some fashion--and you might possibly say that about ANYTHING.

But, again, TIME is a crucial consideration. Thousands of years of history state bluntly: there is NO "humane" or "just" form of slavery or serfdom.

Hundreds of years of history suggest that capitalism...has some problems, to say the least. It's DEBATABLE whether countries like Sweden or Denmark have "proven" that capitalism can have a "humane" form that will ENDURE.

The first attempts at communism in the 20th century were unmitigated FAILURES...that MUST be admitted by any honest observer.

Against these phenomena, compare religion. Thousands of years of history STATE BLUNTLY that puritanical repression, mythology, attacks on any kind of rational philosophy, conversions at sword-point or gun-point, mass murder of heathens, exploitation of slave labor, apologetics for blood-sucking ruling classes, etc., etc., etc. are ALL as NATURAL to religion as breathing. The exceptions seem to me to be trivial...involving small numbers and very brief periods of time. (If the "Acts of the Apostles" is accurate, the early christians practiced a rather rigorous communism amongst themselves...I'm sure that was gone by 200 CE.)

It seems to me, Umoja, that if there is an area we could agree on, it would involve your willingness to accept that religion MUST withdraw from public life entirely; I am more than willing to concede your unlimited right to worship whatever you wish...in private. :cool:

[JoYKiLLaH]

so true man,

religon is cool with me, long as people keep it personal, and not public

[Umoja]

Keeping it private is a broad definition, but isn't part of free speech being able to put a belief out in public? Otherwise your stifiling thinking (even though Religion sometimes does that), and if people can't express themselves freely they aren't happy even if it's over the smallest issues.

[JoYKiLLaH]

but look at what public religon has done,

priests molesting kids ( not all , huge topic, just an example)
the WTC being fucked up (even tho its cappie)
islam and lebanese people holy war

etc.

[Umoja]

But all these things have to do with flaws in human nature. These things happen even without religion, people just manipulate a good religion to suit their needs. Just like people manipulated early communist governments to their intentions.

[redstar2000]

Umoja, what is the PURPOSE of a PUBLIC demonstration of religious belief?

You KNOW the answer to that one: "Look at us, the SAVED; JOIN us, or be DAMNED."

And it's a very small step from that to: "join us or be KILLED!"

No, I will neither accept that nor will I compromise with it. And if the popular militia has to be called out to crack a few skulls, so be it!

And if all the god-suckers want to piss and moan about my "stalinist" methods on the internet, let them go to it.

I maintain that religion has SHOWN itself to be the WORST invention in the history of the human species--and while I'm willing to tolerate its private practice among consenting adults, ANY public manifestation of it is UNACCEPTABLE under ANY circumstances.

And if my views have any influence on future generations of communists, that's the way it's going to BE! :angry:

[JoYKiLLaH]

Religon is bullshit, really, there IS NO purpose for it, it does nothing for us physically, and does not help the common good.

Meditating can be good, meditating has nothign to do with religon by itself. It helps you reflect on yourself.


ha

[apathy maybe]

ANY public manifestation of it is UNACCEPTABLE under ANY circumstances.
As is any public gathering of more then 5 people, any written or verbal article against the government, anything advocating return to the 'bad days' before the revolution.
But apart from that, if a church/mosque/temple is in private hands and only selected people are allowed in it. (i.e. anyone except government men)

[redstar2000]

A/M, I'm not sure how much of your post is intended to be satirical. :confused:

But there won't be any "church/mosque/temples"--if you want to do that stuff, do it in your own home. And do it QUIETLY, please. :cool:

[JoYKiLLaH]

exactly comrade redstar, quietly, so i dontr haveta hear u and ***** about it on here ahah

[Umoja]

My reasoning Redstar isn't only based around Christianity. Religion won't fade out if you ask me, it'll stay lingering around, or even manifest itself in ways we can't imagine. Property is the worst thing ever invented, because all problems can be traced to want of things material. Well maybe not all problems, but really this topic isn't making me any more atheist, which I could argue as good or bad.

[redstar2000]

Umoja, I've already conceded that you can be as privately religious as you like...it's ok with me. But this isn't a thread about your personal belief or mine...it's about whether or not religion has ANY legitimate public role in a communist society. I maintain it DOES NOT.

I agree that property was indeed another perverse invention. But BEFORE there was property, there was some tribal con man convincing other members of the tribe that he had a special "connection" to the supernatural realm...which he would gladly share with you for a hand ax and the leg of a dead zebra.

And the con has been going on ever since...until we stop it. :cool:

[apathy maybe]

A/M, I'm not sure how much of your post is intended to be satirical.

But there won't be any "church/mosque/temples"--if you want to do that stuff, do it in your own home. And do it QUIETLY, please.
Only the last line was not meant to be satircal. However, are you going to prevent people from building houses which coincidently look like a church for instance. Then people can do what they want in the privacy of their own home. Quietly, but with out government people.

[Umoja]

Well Redstar, I assume it would be acceptable enough to make it private but that seems rather Soviet Style. Would you restrict displays of political opposition? Strip Clubs? Violence in the Media? It seems rather meaningless because as long as we keep government far away from religious opression that's great. But hey if people vote for that then so be it, but it shouldn't be forced.

[redstar2000]

A/M, if someone built a home that "looked like a religious building", that wouldn't be a "coincidence", would it? NO PROPAGANDA IN STONE is the rule!

Umoja, your questions are a little more complex and raise matters that are technically outside the thread.

Restrictions on display would, most likely, be on a case-by-case basis, depending on circumstances that can't be foreseen at this point. My general bias is against restrictions, but...

"violence in the media"--the reason we have it now is because many people like to watch it as a distraction from their own boring, shitty lives, which generates advertising revenues and profits. Without economic motivations, I don't think "violence in the media" would be a problem. If there is to be violence in the media, I think it should be as REALISTIC as technically possible...people see a very sanitized version of violence in the capitalist media. THE REAL THING is very different and MUCH more horrifying.

"strip clubs"--my impulse would be to suggest handling it the way many cities do now, by establishing an "erotic zone" where anything (nonviolent) goes. Within the zone, any sort of display is permissable...outside the zone, more decorous behavior is expected. (But keep in mind that standards of decorum are always changing.)

"political opposition"--as long as it's not clearly pro-capitalist, I don't see ANY problem there at all. I'm IN FAVOR of a multi-party system under communism...but ALL of the parties are communist. Also, I think there may be occasions when the government may NEED some public demonstrations of opposition to remind it of who is really in charge.

If I were a candidate of one of those communist parties running for public office, my PLATFORM would include the kinds of attacks on the public exercise of superstitution that I have been discussing here. If I were elected, I would try to make those proposals law. And if those proposals were approved, I would then consider that I had a popular mandate to carry them out...even though I would be attacked by all the god-suckers as a "stalinist monster".

But that's all in the VERY distant future; today I can read the BBC site and rejoice in the trials and tribulations of the Catholic Church--laughing at the thought of those pious penis-grabbers "doing the perp walk" and looking forward to the sale of their "historic cathedrals" to some capitalist hustler who will tear them down and put up a multi-level parking garage.

Sometimes it really happens: what goes around comes around. :cheesy:

[Umoja]

Yeah those Priest got what they deserved.... Proof of why you can't be celibate for all to long.

Okay, well Redstar at least we can agree to disagree because if I were president I would let Facist parties run if they wanted to because I'd not restrict anything to the public over 16, since most people are finished aging by then.

[apathy maybe]

As to the point of the thread, it has been said that religion is the whole reason we have a civilisation. And for those of you who think that the Australian and North American Aboriginies had it good. They had religion.

[red warlock]

YOU LISTEN TO ME,RED STAR..HAVE YOU OR DO YOU LIVE UNDER A COMMUNIST REGIME?
ARE YOU A MEMBER OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY??
DID YOU EVER TALK WITH A COMMUNIST LEADER?
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN RUSSIA?
DID YOU EVER PARTICIPATE IN A REAL COMMUNIST PROPAGANDA ACTION?/
CAN YOU ANSWER YES TO ALL THESE QUESTIONS?
I CAN.
IF YOU CAN ANSWER YES TO ALL OF THAN YOU CAN TALK ABOUT THE "PSEUDO-COMUNNIST" STAFF YOU MENTIONED>
VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!!1

[redstar2000]

Hey, red warlock, did you have a really BAD day yesterday? You sound really pissed off at me...what did I say to make you so upset?

I can answer yes to some of those questions but so what? Until you make your gripes SPECIFIC, I can't reply to you.

Try to relax. :cool:

[red warlock]

COMRADE,THE ONLY REASON WHY I AM PISSED IS BECAUSE YOU USED THAT "PSEUDO-COMMUNIST" FORMULA...
I SAW THAT U WERE AGAINST WHAT I SAID ABOUT RELIGION AND EDUCATION...WE SHOULD TALK ONE IN FRONT OF THE OTHER,FACE TO FACE...THE THINGS I SAID ARE CONCIEVED FOR A FUTURE ROUMANIAN COMMUNIST REGIM, IF THAT IS POSSIBLE IN THE CONDITIONS OF THE AMERICAN IMPERIALISM...SO THAT AWS A PARTICULARITY,SOMETHING SPECIFIC FOR MY REGION...MY FRIEND WHO STARTED THIS SUBJECT HAD INMIND ALSO SOME PARTICULARITIES THAT OCCUR IN THIS REGION....
ANYWAY,I RESPECT YOU FIRM "stalin"(mening steal ) positions....BUT YOU SHOULD TRY NOT TO LABEL PEOPLE PEOPLE AS "PSEUDO COMMUNISTS" LIKE THAT......
I HOPE I MADE MYSELF CLEAR.
GOOD DAY,COMRADE!
VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!

[kokane]

In a perfect world we would all truely be equal as we all are through the eyes of god,though people tend to forget this due to our inperfections. Socialism is equalty.

[redstar2000]

red warlock, to be honest, it is simply not possible for me to remember all the things I have written on this and other boards. If indeed I ever called you a "pseudo-communist", I apologize. On the other hand, I DO think the old regime in Roumania was pseudo-communist...which is, in large part, my opinion of 20th century "communism" altogether. I won't apologize for that.

"Religion is the whole reason we have a civilization"? Nonsense. Religions are invented to legitimize and validate existing civilizations, not the other way around.

Are we "equal" in the eyes of "God"? Not according to "His" earthly representatives. Pope, patriarch, rabbi and ayatollah all agree: believe MY way, worship MY way, etc., or be DAMNED! Curiously enough, only the "Devil" welcomes all "souls" on an equal basis.

:cool:

[red warlock]

indeed, communism in Romania was actually pseudo-communism....that's why people hate it so much, and the idea of passing to a communist regime, no matter how good it would be, sounds atrocious to them..
apologies accepted,comrade.
good day !!
hacia la libertad!!!