manifesto - need an interpretation

[Jaha]

marx clearly explains the need to bring about "the emancipation of the proletariat." this is obvious and un disputable.

what gets me is this: " 'There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience.' "

i understand the abolishment of religion, but shouldnt there be some form of morality? and if there are no eternal truths, why do we want to FREE the proletarians?

can some one explain?

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from Jaha on 7:12 am on Nov. 11, 2002

what gets me is this: " 'There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience.' "

i understand the abolishment of religion, but shouldnt there be some form of morality? and if there are no eternal truths, why do we want to FREE the proletarians?

can some one explain?

Eternal truths are those truths which existed ( and still exist) for the centuries in the societies , which practiced exploitation of one class by the other ( ruling class). The same is with morality.
We communists should destroy bourgeois morality and build the morality of a new kind- socialist morality. This task was successfully accomplished in the USSR.

[bolshevik1917]

Untill Stalin took over...

[Wenty]

but surely nowadays the idea of bourgeois and proletariat is somewhat outdated. Thinking about when marx was writing during the indus. revolution it had relevance but today is it the same? Defintely not in capitialist infested societes, ie the west...

[Jaha]

RH, is not socialist morality just a new form of the old morality?

what confuses me is that marx says no morality, no eternal truths. well, if there are no eternal truths, and no morality, capitalism is not "wrong". nothing is "wrong". and communism is no longer "good". nothing is "good".

if someone makes a socialist morality or any other morality, does it not contradict this: " 'There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience.' "

???

[redstar2000]

Sometimes, I notice, a thread gets started based on a simple misunderstanding. The quote that Jaha has brought up is actually A QUOTE WITHIN A QUOTE: Marx and Engels are referring to a hypothetical bourgeois making an OBJECTION to communist ideas; Jaha's quote is not the view of Marx and Engels themselves.

The view of Marx and Engels is precisely that "eternal truths" are actually CLASS truths; "justice" is actually CLASS justice; "morality" is actually CLASS morality, etc.

Seems reasonable enough to me.

[anonymous]

can you buy manifesto in waterstones?

[Jaha]

hmmm... i guess that makes sense, redstar.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from Jaha on 2:30 pm on Nov. 11, 2002
RH, is not socialist morality just a new form of the old morality?



No, it is completely different morality, with the different values and beliefs.

"what confuses me is that marx says no morality, no eternal truths. well, if there are no eternal truths, and no morality, capitalism is not "wrong".
Actually, capitalism has it's own morality, and just like capitalism is wrong, it 's morality is also wrong. That is why it has to be changed into the morality of a new type.

" But communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience"
Means that completely different morality would be built in the socialist society, in other words it would NOT use the old values and beliefs, but create a new set of values and beliefs.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 4:01 am on Nov. 12, 2002

The view of Marx and Engels is precisely that "eternal truths" are actually CLASS truths; "justice" is actually CLASS justice; "morality" is actually CLASS morality, etc.




It would have seem even more reasonable if you had have said BOURGOIS CLASS "eternal truths", "justice", "morality".

[redstar2000]

Um, not exactly, RH. See, they were not just talking about capitalist society but "all hither-to existing societies." Their point was really that in ANY kind of class society, the "eternal truths", etc. will in fact be the "truths" of that particular society's ruling class.

Thus, in a slave-owning society, slavery is an "eternal truth". In a feudal society, "serfdom" and "nobility" are "eternal truths". In a capitalist society, "employer and employee" are "eternal truths". It was one of the brilliant insights of Marx and Engels to see that this analysis applied throughout the existence of various kinds of class societies.

[Jaha]

what is marx suggesting if he doesnt really approve of social morality?

it seems foolish to think that marx is going to create a new morality parallel to the old one and say it is better. what options does marx have except eliminate morality or verge on hypocracy?

[redstar2000]

Not recalling any explicit quotes on the subject, I think Marx and Engels would have postulated a "proletarian morality" in which the exploitation of one human by another would be considered deeply IMMORAL...and that would be the new "eternal truth" of classless society.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 12:37 am on Nov. 13, 2002
Um, not exactly, RH. See, they were not just talking about capitalist society but "all hither-to existing societies." Their point was really that in ANY kind of class society, the "eternal truths", etc. will in fact be the "truths" of that particular society's ruling class.

Thus, in a slave-owning society, slavery is an "eternal truth". In a feudal society, "serfdom" and "nobility" are "eternal truths". In a capitalist society, "employer and employee" are "eternal truths". It was one of the brilliant insights of Marx and Engels to see that this analysis applied throughout the existence of various kinds of class societies.


I said bourgeois class morality, as I applied the quote to the modern time.
It is clear that " eternal truths" are the "truths" of the class of exploiters. But, why Marx called these "truths"eternal? The answer is that there is almost no difference between the morality of the slavery formation and the one of a capitalist society. The morality stays relatively the same and that is why it seems " eternal", before socialism appears.