The army and leftism

[Tower of Bebel]

Hi,

Maybe some of you know that I said I was a reservist in the Belgian army, but now I can say that I left the army, as I cannot combine my studies with my training each year.

I always were very interested in the subject of army, war, tactics and soldiers; and I still have this romatic view of brotherhood - brothers-in-arms - amongst soldiers. A year ago, when I discovered the revolutionairy alternative to capitalism that was communism, I started to oppose to war and militarism but not to soldiers themselves and (only policemen). Before I post my question I'll first give an example of what my question is about.

Anyway, this week at a local meeting of the LSP (CWI) our conversation was about Portugal. I heard from the revolution of 1974 and appearantly the government was overthrown by a couple of army officers. 70% of Portugal's companies, public services, etc. were nationalized and they organised democratic elections. The social-democrats won because they had some leftist views, but ofcourse they never realised what they promised.
Many of the officers in the army appearently had some leftist ideas, as you had to go to univeristy first before you can become an officer. Universities in Europa are always places to meet leftist ideas. But they the problem was that first they had no connections with some sort of revolutionairy group to guide them (and the PC was no good example), and second many other officers might have been liberals or christian-democrats, whatever. Maybe if more would have been revolutionairy and maybe if they would have been guided by a revolutionary organisation, would Portugal have become a socialist country?
All I know is that the first article of the constitution says that the Portuguese government has the assignment to clear a path to socialism.

So my question is: could it be effective, or relevant to try to spread leftist ideas amongst soldiers and officers? How should it be done? Or is this just a waste of time?

[Tiparith]

Thats a very good question. I too agree that while opposing militarism and imperialism we can't forget that soldiers are people too. They have the same concerns as the rest of us, they just put it aside for their career. So I totally support trying to inform soldiers and/or protesting recruitment to try and persuade soldiers of what there doing. Keep in mind, when the news tells us that children are coming out and hugging the invading imperialist armies, their not bullshitting us. I've met soldiers who have gotten flowers and hugs from Afghan children and it will be very hard to convince these people that what they are doing is wrong.

[dez]

i think it's a really important area to work on.
Brazilian resistance against dictatorship was pretty much army based, civilians would just be trained by them
=D

[Janus]

The so called Carnation Revolution is a major exception in that it did open the way for progressive reforms to be implemented. Just think of all the times when military coups resulted in nothing more than dictatorial, repressive military juntas/regimes.

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 10:22 pm
The so called Carnation Revolution is a major exception in that it did open the way for progressive reforms to be implemented. Just think of all the times when military coups resulted in nothing more than dictatorial, repressive military juntas/regimes.
But that's because of the conservative views and thoughts of the army. The army is a weapon, something powerfull and has a very stict hierarchie. Soldiers aren't allowed to have political thoughts or opinions on maters of society.
But maybe there is a way to change that? The best way right now is to create leftist youth organisations. By the time youngsters join the army they can already have an open view of society because of those youth organisations at schools or universities.

[The Grey Blur]

Hey Raccoon.

I joined CWI the very week after we discussed the Portugese revolution so I don't really know too much about it unfortunately. I think you could look at Venezuala today as an example of what you're talking about as well, where many of the most revolutionary elements come from the armed forces (including Chavez, a former officer himself).


The best way right now is to create leftist youth organisations
Of course. But is the nature of the activity that is carried out by these organisations that matters and how they're organised, if we're going to see any real change in the attitudes of many young people towards Socialism. Basically what is neccessary is counter-propaganda to that of the capitalists. So we at least seem like a relevant alternative. We should take heart in the fact that the youth are often the most radical sections of society as well.

[Coggeh]

Well having a political stance in the army is not necessarily a bad thing , its good when you think of Brazil and Portugal , but what of Spain and Chile ? A proletarian militia or army based on socialism when it is established would be of course fine but theirs nothing glorious about war and being a mercenary while still serving you imperialist masters.

[Janus]

The army is a weapon, something powerfull and has a very stict hierarchie.
Yes, a weapon of the bourgeois thus it's politics are no more than an extension of the ruling class.


Soldiers aren't allowed to have political thoughts or opinions on maters of society.
They can believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect their ability to serve detrimentally. Many armies have a don't ask, don't tell policy. The army is technically supposed to remain politics-free in that soldiers and commanders shouldn't serve/act differently based on their politics.


But maybe there is a way to change that?
Of course, although we can not hope to sway the entire army to our side we can definitely try with individual soldiers. After all, most of these soldiers usually come from the lower classes.

[Jude]

In "Mother", by Maxim Gorky, several characters give up the glory and romanticism of fighting the police and openly defying the masters, simply to join th Russian army to attempt to 'convert' soldiers. Modern conditions make it more dificult to do this, but that does not mean that it can not or should not be attempted. The conversion of a soldier would be most dificult, however. Once a man picks up a gun, it gets much lighter, and harder for him to put down.

[dez]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Carlos_Prestes
sorry for using wikipedia, but that was the first english link i could come across.
And does the job.


i would like to remark that he made a march similar to Mao's a year before it, and was in soviet union before mao started it, so this could either be a coincidance or mao might have been inspired by him
=D

[Red Militant]

You should read the Lennins theory of Revolutionary Defeatism, the theory is an anwer to various things including the support of of world War One by the Social Democratic parties of Europe under the guise of "self defense".

[JRR883]

I believe that if we could somehow enlighten the armed forces about the oppression and violence that capitalistic imperialism incites, and ensure that the army is fully proletarian or have no ties to bourgeois interests, the military could be the left's greatest ally. Think about how easy revolution would be if the men in the military were not opposed to socialism, direct democracy, and decentralization. Alas, such an idealistic military is about as likely as a turtle being involved in a high-speed pursuit, but with the right social and economic situations, it's not impossible.

[Tower of Bebel]

You don't have to convert the army into a force that will support us right away. It doesn't have to be revolutionary. You need to make sure the army is enlightened enough to refuse any order from the government. That way the government will be helpless as the masses have no armed opposition (maybe still reactionary police). When a neighbouring imperialist nation tries the invade the country by force the army will, revolutionary or not, defend there homeland. not merely because of socialism or nationalism, but because of their families that live there.

[BreadBros]

I think the Trotsky quote in Raccoon's sig is right on in terms of the revolutionary potential of an armed force. With an imperialist country like the United States, I can not imagine the Armed Forces ever doing anything progressive. The leadership of the forces are completely conservative and right-wing. Some of the enlisted membership may be of a leftward persusasion though. On the other hand it seems like the armed forces of a country like Belgium, or even more so of an imperialist-dominated country hold far more revolutionary potential.

Raccoon, whats been your experience with the Belgian army? Any comrades in the ranks?

[Tower of Bebel]

I have not much of experience. I never complete the whole training courses, I needed more years. My studies at university were far more important so I quit (but I do not exlcude any possible return to the reserve forces after getting a diploma).

The little experience I still have is that the army is no easy place to spread leftist ideas. The whole concept of the army is very conservative and obsolete. Yet, skilled revolutionaries can spread ideas amongst soldiers. If you can get quite a basis of sympathizing soldiers it should be possible to 'convert' an NCO.
The problem is that politics are rare in the army. Everyone who starts to seek for other comrades stands alone and will not be supported at all. Especially NCO's and CO's will not become leftists without some support as they can be demoted when the higher ranking officers find out more.

Everyone who ships between the army and civilian life (a reservist f.e.) will see that he/she lives in two different worlds. Both have different laws and methodes of living. Tactics to get the people revolutionary in civilian society will not work in the army. The only way soldiers will become involved with revolutionary action is during a revolt when they form councils of their own.

When soldiers form councils this will not mean problems will be over as revolutionaries will still have to protect themselves from a reactionary army. Revolutionaries can persuade coucils. But the chance soldiers form councils is very small because of conservative thougths. Soldiers are IMO the last group of people to form councils. Only a war that is lost combined with problems at home can make them do this.

If only soldiers could be persuaded before they join the army. That's why I think leftist youth organisations have a maior rol in making the future soldier more educated and more open to socialist ideas.

[JRR883]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 07:17 am
You don't have to convert the army into a force that will support us right away. It doesn't have to be revolutionary. You need to make sure the army is enlightened enough to refuse any order from the government. That way the government will be helpless as the masses have no armed opposition (maybe still reactionary police). When a neighbouring imperialist nation tries the invade the country by force the army will, revolutionary or not, defend there homeland. not merely because of socialism or nationalism, but because of their families that live there.
I'm not saying they need to be converted by a revolutionary group, but the inevitable repercussions of capitalism will sway them towards proletarian interests, or just make them indifferent to the revolutionary forces and simply refuse orders to spite their superiors.