Which Right-Wing dictatorships has China supported

[jacobin1949]

Which Right-Wing dictatorships has Red China supported?
I'm intrested in learning whcih right-wing dictatorships China has supported since 1949. I have heard accusations that China has supported Pinochet in Argentina, the South Africans in Angola, the rebels in Afghanistan and even sent arms to the Contras. If anyone knows any other rightwing dictatorships and movements China has supported since 1949 I'd be intrested in hearing about them.

[Pirate Utopian]

LOL. Pinochet was in Chile.
I dont know about any other accustions though

[Prairie Fire]

For certain, I know that the Chinese leadership supported Pinochet in Chile, Mobutu Sese Seko in Zaire (congo), and they supported anti-soviet/anti-PDPA rebels in Afghanistan ( Maoist, but probably Mujihideen as well.).

I have no trouble at all believing that the Chinese leadership also supported the Contras, Arpathied South Africa, etc. Anything to defeat Soviet-Social imperialism.

To understand this backward-ass logic, and to find more references to other right-wing, anti-communist regimes that the Chinese leadership supported, read "Imperialism and Revolution" by Enver Hoxha.

( please, no commentaries on Hoxha <_< . Whatever you think of Hoxha/the PPSH, his book remains a good commentary on the situation at the time.)

[OneBrickOneVoice]

what the hell are you babbling about. That is hoxhaite garbage. Mao never supported Mobutu or the apartheird or the Mujahen or the contras. I don&#39;t know about after Mao, but it was clearly capitalist then. And I have never seen any evidence that Maoist China dealt with Pinochet&#39;s Chile just empty accusations.

[Janus]

Mao never supported Mobutu or the apartheird or the Mujahen or the contras.
Mao is not synonymous with China.


I have heard accusations that China has supported Pinochet in Argentina, the South Africans in Angola, the rebels in Afghanistan and even sent arms to the Contras.
China never cut relations with Chile when Pinochet came to power and the relationship was purely pragmatic with little ideological content. As for Angola, the Chinese supported UNITA not the South Africans whom they didn&#39;t establish diplomatic relations with until recently. Aside from a joint communique in which the Sandinistas agreed to recognize the PRC as the only legitimate representative of China, the two nations didn&#39;t have much contact since the Contra war was mainly the US&#39;s show. However, China did agree to sell arms to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan in the 1980&#39;s after persuasion from the US so it was purely an business relationship.

[Prairie Fire]

Settle down Henry.

On Mobutu:

Okay, I realize that with Wikipedia, you don&#39;t know what you&#39;re getting, but here is an excerpt from the wikipedia profile on Mobutu Sese Seko, echoing sentiments voiced by Enver Hoxha thirty years before:


Relations with the People&#39;s Republic of China
Initially, Zaire&#39;s relationship with the People&#39;s Republic of China was no better than its relationship with the Soviet Union. Memories of Chinese aid to Mulele and other Maoist rebels in Kwilu province during the ill-fated Simba rebellion remained fresh in Mobutu&#39;s mind. He also opposed seating China at the United Nations. However, by 1972, he began to see the Chinese in a different light, as a counterbalance to both the Soviet Union as well as his intimate ties with the United States, Israel, and South Africa.[45] In November of 1972, Mobutu extended the Chinese (as well as East Germany and North Korea) diplomatic recognition. The following year, Mobutu paid a visit to Beijing, where he met personally with Chairman Mao and received promises of &#036;100 million in technical aid.In 1974, Mobutu made a surprise visit to both China and North Korea, during the time he was originally scheduled to visit the Soviet Union. Upon returning home, both his politics and rhetoric became markedly more radical; it was around this time that Mobutu began criticizing Belgium and the United States (the latter for not doing enough, in Mobutu&#39;s opinion, to combat white minority rule in southern Africa), introduced the "obligatory civic work" program called salongo, and initiated "radicalization" (an extension of 1973&#39;s "Zairianization" policy). Mobutu even borrowed a title - the Helmsman - from Mao. Incidentally, late 1974-early 1975 was when his personality cult reached its peak.

China and Zaire shared a common goal in Central Africa, namely doing everything in their power to halt Soviet gains in the area. Accordingly, both Zaire and China covertly funneled aid to the FNLA (and later, UNITA) in order to prevent the MPLA, who were supported and augmented by Cuban forces, from coming to power.The Cubans, who exercised considerable influence in Africa in support of leftist and anti-imperialist forces, were heavily sponsored by the Soviet Union during the period. In addition to inviting Holden Roberto and his guerrillas to Beijing for training, China provided weapons and money to the rebels. Zaire itself launched an ill-fated, pre-emptive invasion of Angola in a bid to install a pro-Kinshasa government, but was repulsed by Cuban troops. The expedition was a fiasco with far-reaching repercussions, most notably the Shaba I and Shaba II invasions, both of which China opposed. China sent military aid to Zaire during both invasions, and accused the Soviet Union and Cuba (who were alleged to have supported the Shaban rebels, although this was and remains speculation) of working to de-stabilize Central Africa.

In 1983, as part of his 11 nation African tour, Premier Zhao Ziyang visited Kinshasa, and announced that he was cancelling Zaire&#39;s &#036;100 million debt to China; the money borrowed would be reinvested in joint Chinese-Zairian projects. China continued to provide military equipment and training into the late 1980s. Following Mobutu&#39;s abandonment by the West, China assumed a more active role in the country; an estimated 1,000 Chinese technicians reportedly were working on agricultural and forestry projects in Zaire in the early 1990s.[46]

Janus is correct. I said "The chinese leadership". Although Mao, also, shook hands with some pretty notorious commie killers.

Sorry Henry, but there&#39;s only so much that you can blame on Deng and the capitalist roaders in the CPC. You think I wasn&#39;t a Maoist once too?

You can disregard this "Hoxaite garbage" if you like, but unless you can provide a counter point or disprove my statements and sources, I suggest you take it in.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

okay fine but that leaves out the mujahadin, which Mao never supported and the Afghan Maoists firmly opposed; just didn&#39;t buy into Soviet/hoxhaite revisionism. As for Mobutu, his party, the Movement for a Popular Revolution, was allied with the Romanian Communist Party, and also if you look down a bit, he did implement some socialist planks. China supported all national liberation movements on principle. Unlike the Soviet Union which only aided pro-soviet factions, the People&#39;s Republic aided anti-imperialist movements that asked for aid as a principle, thus Che remarked that there was too much Chinese weapon and aid in China. Also that one deal was a loan that was expected to be paid back. I&#39;d be interested in knowing more about it.

[Hiero]

I have no trouble at all believing that the Chinese leadership also supported the Contras, Arpathied South Africa, etc. Anything to defeat Soviet-Social imperialism.

Many fighters from from Umkhonto we Sizwe, ANC and SACP were trained in China.

[Rawthentic]

Holy crap, I never knew that.

[Floyce White]

China also supported the left-wing Khmer Rouge and its dictatorship.

[Prairie Fire]

Henry, I&#39;m not accusing you of being a Mobutu apologist, but here is some criticism:


As for Mobutu, his party, the Movement for a Popular Revolution, was allied with the Romanian Communist Party, and also if you look down a bit, he did implement some socialist planks.

Mobutu Sese Seko, like many other dictators, made his bones by killing communists (including Maoists.). He was a staunch anti-communist (The manifesto of his party called for "the repudiation of both capitalism and communism :rolleyes: ) , and his political dealings with Mao and Ceausescu are not enough to redeem his regime.

"Socialist planks"? What Mobutu did implement were some forms of anti-colonial measures ( banning anglo-saxon names, banning western clothing) and some programs cloaked in socialist sounding rhetoric (the ruling party was called "Popular movement of the revolution").These are socialist? He grouped all of the unions into one large state union, but this was to sell the workers out rather than to empower them.


China supported all national liberation movements on principle.

It&#39;s debatable wether mobutu was a national liberation movement... He came to power by coup. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia :

...Colonel Mobutu was a key figure in the coup and was significantly rewarded for this work. The CIA and the Belgians were actively working in the country to support Mobutu and get rid of Lumumba[1][2] (whom they regarded as being pro-Soviet) because they felt Mobutu would be a better ally in the Cold War.

National liberation, indeed. More cold-war, neo imperialist bullshit.


Unlike the Soviet Union which only aided pro-soviet factions, the People&#39;s Republic aided anti-imperialist movements that asked for aid as a principle,

Well, that&#39;s fine, except when it is done at the expense of the working class. Supporting a national bourgeosie can be an acceptable tactic, but when you&#39;re shaking hands and pledging funds to a communist/worker killer, you&#39;re selling out the working class of that country, Straight up.


Also that one deal was a loan that was expected to be paid back

What difference does it make? That money was supporting an anti-worker, anti-communist dictatorship. Who cares if he was expected to pay it back?

Oh god, I sound like NKOS in that last quote :huh: . Anyways...


just didn&#39;t buy into Soviet/hoxhaite revisionism

Erm, why are you pairing those two together? I didn&#39;t pair Maoism with Soviet revisionism.

[Hiero]

While China did support some right wing movements (though many portrayed themsevles as national liberation movements for a time, such as the PAC, UNITA), China did get many things right. For instance they supported and aided Laurent-Désiré Kabila&#39;s movement. If the claims are correct about support to Mobutu, then both policies would come into conflict.

We know that China&#39;s leadership was often in conflict between right wing and the left wing, so I wouldn&#39;t be surprised if both forces had power to direct aid and support. I think it is a difficult topic and can&#39;t be simple stated as "China supported reactionary movements" "China support progressive movements". I would say that their internationalist stance was affected by local contradictions and I would admit they were a bit blinded by the ideology of Soviet imperialism. Which is shown in the complicated position on supporting anyone who claimed to be revolutionary.

[Severian]

Pretty much all of them, at one point. After Nixon&#39;s visit, Mao became a U.S. ally and supported most of its clients worldwide.

Some of the transcripts of Mao&#39;s discussions with Nixon and Kissinger are now declassified and publicly available.

In this one, (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB19/05-04.htm) and continued here (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB19/05-05.htm); Mao explains why he prefers the more right-wing element in the politics of various countries; they are more likely to be hawkishly anti-Soviet. "I am comparatively happy when these people on the right come into power", Mao says.

In this multi-page discussion (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/publications/DOC_readers/kissinger/docs/06-01.htm) , Mao and Deng discuss with Ford and Kissinger, strategy for containing the world revolution in a whole series of countries, especially Angola.

Actually the only mild disagreement is expressed by Deng, against getting too cozy with South Africa....he was if anything slightly to Mao&#39;s left on foreign policy at the time, apparently.

[jacobin1949]

Thoose documents were amazing. I&#39;ve read a few dozen books on Mao but I learned more from a few lines of his actual conversations than years of reading. I really like the line where he says that stupid atheist Kissinger is keeping me from speaking to God.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 07:30 am
Pretty much all of them, at one point. After Nixon&#39;s visit, Mao became a U.S. ally and supported most of its clients worldwide.

Some of the transcripts of Mao&#39;s discussions with Nixon and Kissinger are now declassified and publicly available.

In this one, (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB19/05-04.htm) and continued here (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB19/05-05.htm); Mao explains why he prefers the more right-wing element in the politics of various countries; they are more likely to be hawkishly anti-Soviet. "I am comparatively happy when these people on the right come into power", Mao says.

In this multi-page discussion (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/publications/DOC_readers/kissinger/docs/06-01.htm) , Mao and Deng discuss with Ford and Kissinger, strategy for containing the world revolution in a whole series of countries, especially Angola.

Actually the only mild disagreement is expressed by Deng, against getting too cozy with South Africa....he was if anything slightly to Mao&#39;s left on foreign policy at the time, apparently.
bullshit, your links don&#39;t support this at all. The US and China weren&#39;t allies, they just had diplomatic relations which is ummm completly fucking different because they had the same with the USSR. In fact almost every socialist country had some talks with the US. Look at your beloved Cuba. Carter visted and spoke to Castro last year on behalf of the US. This must of course mean that Cuba is America&#39;s ally by your standard.

As for UNITA, keep in mind that they were Maoist, or appeared to be Maoist until Mao stopped aiding them and then they became traitors and espoused US rhetoric at which point the US aided them. Their early party slogan was something like "socialism and liberation"


and the sellout Siad Barre regime in Somalia after it invaded revolutionary Ethiopia.

how so?


Mao infamously shook hands with Nixon while the U.S. military rained down bombs on Viet Nam.

gasp. So did the Soviet Union and a vast array of other countries. I guess shaking hands outweighs all the guns, tactics, military advisors, rice, food, aid, and other equipment China gave to the North Vietnamese and Vietcong.

http://debrisson.free.fr/images/musee/meiguoqinlue.jpg

"The American Invaders will be Defeated"


China also supported the left-wing Khmer Rouge and its dictatorship.

yes because it was posing as a communist national liberation movement. China supported all movements that wanted to free countries from the chains of imperialism, but not let it fall back into the chains of Soviet imperialism.


Erm, why are you pairing those two together? I didn&#39;t pair Maoism with Soviet revisionism.

because Hoxha became a revisionist later on when he attempted to split the anti-revisionist movement and focus it only on Albania and separate from maoism.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Here is a very good quote by Bob Avakian on Mao&#39;s actions I think


During the course of the Iraq war, and increasingly as the U.S. has run into trouble and become "stuck" there, the example, or analogy, of Vietnam has been invoked. So let&#39;s look at a crucial aspect of how the U.S. eventually got out of Vietnam. To be honest and blunt, they got out of it partly by arrangements they made with China, after Nixon began moving to "normalize relations" with China. And Nixon got some heat for that, too, within U.S. ruling class circles, because a lot of them didn&#39;t understand what he was doing. But what Nixon did was basically to enter into a different set of relationships with China than what had existed previously. Not different in the most fundamental sense, because China and the U.S. at that time still represented two fundamentally different and ultimately antagonistic social systems, one socialist and one imperialist; but each government, proceeding from its sense of how to further the interests it represented, moved to conclude certain agreements involving areas of mutual interest, particularly with regard to the Soviet Union, which had itself become capitalist-imperialist (although then in a state-capitalist form and with the continuing camouflage of "socialism") and was, at one and the same time, the most militarily powerful imperialist rival to the U.S. and the main danger to China, threatening it with military attack, possibly even with nuclear weapons.

As part of this agreement with China, Nixon was able to, metaphorically speaking, "stanch some of the geostrategic bleeding" that U.S. imperialism suffered as a result of having to admit defeat and pull out of Vietnam. And, as I have referred to, the Chinese had their own objectives, which had to do especially with working to stave off an attack by the Soviet Union. Again, the threat of such an attack was a very real thing. The Soviet Union, a nuclear superpower, had troops massed on the Chinese border and, it seems, was seriously considering an attack on China, including possibly with nuclear weapons. Now, from the standpoint of our Party, and our communist outlook and objectives, even understanding the very great necessity, the very real threat, the Chinese faced, we can still criticize and must criticize how they dealt with all that, in particular the way in which they allied with and covered up the reactionary and bloodthirsty nature of a number of regimes that were installed and/or kept in power by the U.S., and were key cogs in the imperialist alliance headed by the U.S.—regimes headed by such brutal tyrants as the Shah of Iran and Marcos in the Philippines.

But, once more, in scientifically analyzing, and yes criticizing, these moves by the Chinese government at that time, we cannot do what so many are inclined to do so frequently—to ignore the necessity that different forces have and act like they can do whatever they want. We can&#39;t do that. And we should struggle with everybody else that they shouldn&#39;t approach things that way either. We should struggle with other people about how to understand the world, but first of all we have to understand it correctly ourselves.

[Janus]

okay fine but that leaves out the mujahadin, which Mao never supported and the Afghan Maoists firmly opposed
The question is not what Mao supported but what the PRC has supported since 1949. It is known that the Chinese did sell arms to the Afghan mujahideen through the US not only for monetary profit but also due to their relations with the USSR.


If the claims are correct about support to Mobutu, then both policies would come into conflict.
China supported certain anti-government rebels in Zaire during the "Congo Crisis". Several years after Mobuto took power however, the PRC did develop friendly relations with him.

[jacobin1949]

If you read the documents posted, it seems that Mao was bashing NATO for not accepting in Franco in Spain and the junta in Greece. ITs quite clear that Mao leaned to the United States in the 1970s more strongly than Deng did in the 1980s. I don&#39;t think Mao would deny it either. The three worls theory openly states that China will ally with right-wing nations to defeat the Soviets. I just didn&#39;t relize the extent to it under Mao till reading thoose excellent doucments.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

what are you babbling about? The only reason China even spoke to the US was that they were about to be invaded my the Soviet Union and were creeped the fuck out. hundreds of border incidents between soviet troops and Chinese troops or civilians happened each year during the sino-soviet conflict, the soviets had massed a large part of the Red Army on the Chinese-Soviet border, thus naturally, China was scared of the proximity that The Soviet imperialists had as opposed to the american imperialists. And Mao never support Franco. On the contrary Mao proposed a deal that if the US pulls its troops back home (from vietnam presumably) the Chinese will not get involved and will pull back theirs.

[jacobin1949]

If you read the documents severaian posted, Mao clearly states that he is pleased that Spain and Greece will be alllowed into NATO and upset that "radicals" in Europe oppose it.