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grove street
17th April 2007, 06:59
On myspace's political forum I'm currently in debate with a Pro Capitalist Chinese Christian. He claims that he has read all of Karl Marx's works as well as Lenin's and Mao's.

He is continually uses the China vs Taiwan, North Korea vs South Korea and even claims that Cubans are worse off then their Capitalist counterparts living in other Latin American countires.


http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseact...6D496DC74007296 (http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&groupID=0&page=0&EntryID=2429104&CategoryID=71&get=1&adTopicId=16&keyword=politics&xargstringp=&xargstringn=&lastpagesent=1&Mytoken=A76FD375-42B3-4971-8BCA4AE166D496DC74007296)

Here is an example of our argument. My name is O'shay and his is Peter.

Peter (Capitalist)

Communist countries will disappear in the near future


''First of all, in terms of politics , through the history almost every communist country in the world got their powers by using violence, for example Cuba , China , Soviet Unions and so forth, After getting their powers these communist regimes controlled their countries by oppressing their people, they put their opponents into jails or labor camps, they controlled all media in which no different political opinions could be heard in these communist countries.

In short , from the collapse of the Soviet Unions to beginning reforms in a few communist countries such as China and Vietnam, communist regimes are social cancers in the world, they slow down the social progress and economy development, most people in these communist regimes want to change the regimes, they want to reform, they want to become democratic and free countries. The history will prove that these few communist countries will disapper in the world in the near future''

O'shay (Me)

''Yes Capitalism is so wonderful. Peter go tell that to the many Capitalist countries of Africa and Latin America, go tell that to the people of Indonesia ect.

There is a reason why Marxist ideology was created in the first place.

It's time you put down the U.S propaganda and read more accurate books. Capitalism doesn't always equal democracy and the living standards enjoyed by the average person in the west has more to do with the pro-Marxist labour movement of the 19th and early 20th century.

Your example about the Soviet Union is over used and poor. Within ten years Russia went from being one of the poorest countries in Europe, 100-150 years behind to being one of the most advanced and wealthiest. The Soviets downfull was not Socialism but the revisionism that it was plagued with after Stalin's death.

Your inclusion of Cuba has shown me how low you have reached. Cuba is faced with a harsh trade embargo by the US, but yet Cubans still enjoy better living standards then most other Latin and Carabien countries who practised your beloved Capitalism.

If only the Gang of Four rose to power after Mao's death, we wouldn't be having this argument. ''

Peter (Capitalist)

Are these of capitalist countries in Africa and latin America worse than North Korea?

''I have read and studied entire Marx's books when I was in college, his theory was ridiculous and impractical , the Marxist ideology can't stand the test of time and history.

Soviet Union conducted planning economy, this kind of economy had ruined Russian economy for so long, the Soviet Union only paid a close attention to its military forces, now Russia is conducting free market economy, since then Russian economy has improve a lot, ordinary people benefit from the collapse of Soviet Union.

You are kidding ? Cubans don't enjoy the better living standards, only a small number of Cuban communist elites enjoy the communist system, if the Cuban communist regime is not changed the ordinary Cubans will become poorer and poorer.

If the Gand of Four rose to power after Mao's death then many Chinese would be starving to death, China would have become poorer and poorer, China wouldn't have had somewhat prosperity and progress now. ''

O'shay (Me)

''The average African is far worse off then the average North Korean. The average Cuban does enjoy better living standards then the average person in most other Latin American countries. There is no one living in a rubbish dump in Cuba, but there sure are 100's of thousands living in rubbish dumps in Capitalist Latin American countires.

Have you ever stopped to think why more and more Latin American countries are giving up on Free Market Capitalism and becoming more Socialist?

Living standards in the Soviet Union, even right up to it's collapse are still far greater then living standards experinced in Russia today and many other former Soviet countires.''

Peter (Capitalist)

''Believe it or not some capitalist countries can be bad but they are not worse than communist countries, not all African countries are poor there are at least 14 African countries which their average living standard is higher than Chinese.

You can see countless beggars in Chinese cities , needless to say North Korea, they are starving to death, many of them escaped to China to survive.

I don't think that Cubans enjoy better living standards than the average person in most Latin America, the communist Cuba regime controll all media you can't get the real situation from their media, they oppress their people especially their oppositions, they show their high-ups with those of low-ends. I am sure that you haven't lived in any coummunit countries, you just have your illusion about communist countries.

Now only two Latin American countries are pushing toward to Socialist, if they are successful to become a pure socialist countries then they will began to drop behind the world even faster and faster.''

As you can tell he is extremly annoying and provides stupid examples.

Please help me defeat this evil troll :angry:

Kwisatz Haderach
17th April 2007, 07:16
He is simply providing utterly false "facts". My best advice is to gather some statistics from the CIA World Factbook and other sources that could not possibly be accused of a pro-communist bias, and beat him over the head with them.

For example, here are some statistics on Latin America that I gathered from the CIA World Factbook back in 2005:

LIFE EXPECTANCY

Cuba - 76.8 years
Chile - 76.35 years
Jamaica - 76.07 years
Uruguay - 75.87 years
Argentina - 75.48 years
Mexico - 74.94 years
Paraguay - 74.4 years
Venezuela - 73.81 years
Ecuador - 71.89 years
Colombia - 71.14 years
Brazil - 71.13 years
Peru - 70.88 years
Dom. Rep. - 67.63 years
Bolivia - 64.78 years
Haiti - 51.78 years

LITERACY:

Uruguay - 98%
Argentina - 97.1%
Cuba - 97%
Chile - 96.2%
Paraguay - 94%
Venezuela - 93.4%
Ecuador - 92.5%
Colombia - 92.5%
Mexico - 92.2%
Peru - 90.9%
Jamaica - 87.9%
Bolivia - 87.2%
Brazil - 86.4%
Dom. Rep. - 84.7%
Haiti - 52.9%

Rosa Lichtenstein
17th April 2007, 18:22
Well, you are in trouble because you are defending states that are not Marxist, and mostly never were.

Marxism is not just about the life-expectancy of the population, etc. It's about workers' power, and we only ever saw that in the former USSR 1917-1923-ish.

This has never been true in China, N Korea, E.Europe, or Cuba. And it was certainly not true in post-1925 USSR.

So, good luck; you are in fact defending State Capitalism against a pro-Capitalist.

There is no way you are going to win that one!

The Grey Blur
17th April 2007, 19:11
I disagree with Rosa, I think you're at least defending the concept of Socialism. Those states such as Cuba or the former USSR should be heavily critiscised for their lack of worker's democracy but at the same time the gains of their state planning should be emphasised. How about the fact that the USSR went from backwards, semi-feudal nation to industrialised super-power sending the first human beings into space?

Like Edric O said, rely on facts. You won't win this guy over, but those reading your comments might at least have their minds opened a bit.

Janus
17th April 2007, 22:34
He claims that he has read all of Karl Marx's works as well as Lenin's and Mao's.
I really doubt that considering his understanding of communism and his description of China and Vietnam as "communist countries".


You can see countless beggars in Chinese cities , needless to say North Korea, they are starving to death, many of them escaped to China to survive.
Yet these beggars didn't even exist until about a decade ago when China began its economic market reforms.

Rosa Lichtenstein
18th April 2007, 00:29
Janus:


Yet these beggars didn't even exist until about a decade ago when China began its economic market reforms.

But we did have mass repression, lack of democracy, and one party rule.

But no beggars....

[Or, none that were allowed to be seen.]

Janus
18th April 2007, 00:36
Well, that was the point of the "Iron rice bowl" program: to eliminate the poverty and economic destitution that had so characterized China during the latter half of the 19th century and early 20th century. It was only when Deng began reversing such policies that these problems began emerging again.

grove street
18th April 2007, 01:45
Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 11:36 pm
Well, that was the point of the "Iron rice bowl" program: to eliminate the poverty and economic destitution that had so characterized China during the latter half of the 19th century and early 20th century. It was only when Deng began reversing such policies that these problems began emerging again.
Are you from China by any chance?

Janus
18th April 2007, 21:39
Yes, mainland China.

grove street
19th April 2007, 09:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 11:36 pm
Well, that was the point of the "Iron rice bowl" program: to eliminate the poverty and economic destitution that had so characterized China during the latter half of the 19th century and early 20th century. It was only when Deng began reversing such policies that these problems began emerging again.
Pro Capitalists love to use China as an example for pro corporate Globalization and how overall living standards increased, but they never look at the second fast growing country, India. In India only the top caste classes have benefited from globalization the rest of the nation lives in appauling poverty. The only reason why globalization and Capitalism hasn't hurt China as much as India is because Deng and all post Mao leaders were still acting under the banner of the Communist Party, because they held the name Communist they were still to some degree held under the obligation of the people.

What do you think China would be like today if the Gang of Four took power instead of Deng?

Vargha Poralli
19th April 2007, 13:52
In India only the top caste classes have benefited from globalization the rest of the nation lives in appauling poverty.

It seems like you know nothing about India's current social structure. Please stop making idiotic claims.

Led Zeppelin
19th April 2007, 13:57
I hate it when people say they've read all of Marx', Lenin's etc. works and then make such idiotic statements about Marxism afterwards.

They're obviously lying. After I accused this one old guy of lying he got pissed off at me and stopped discussing.

Total idiots.

Janus
19th April 2007, 23:17
What do you think China would be like today if the Gang of Four took power instead of Deng?
The Gang of Four would've maintained Mao's policies and probably repressed more reform minded "capitalist roaders" like Deng so China would probably still be under a command economy atm with less economic growth than it currently has. However, another scenario would be that China would've simply started economic reforms later after the "hardliners" had died.

grove street
21st April 2007, 07:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 12:52 pm

In India only the top caste classes have benefited from globalization the rest of the nation lives in appauling poverty.

It seems like you know nothing about India's current social structure. Please stop making idiotic claims.
Can you please explain to me why India still has a massive gap between rich and poor as well as home to Asia's largest slums and the fact that India's poor (untochables) face economic, social and political discrimination?

grove street
21st April 2007, 07:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 10:17 pm

What do you think China would be like today if the Gang of Four took power instead of Deng?
The Gang of Four would've maintained Mao's policies and probably repressed more reform minded "capitalist roaders" like Deng so China would probably still be under a command economy atm with less economic growth than it currently has. However, another scenario would be that China would've simply started economic reforms later after the "hardliners" had died.
What would you of prefered?

Deng or Gang of Four ect?

Vargha Poralli
21st April 2007, 15:48
Originally posted by grove street+April 21, 2007 12:16 pm--> (grove street @ April 21, 2007 12:16 pm)
[email protected] 19, 2007 12:52 pm

In India only the top caste classes have benefited from globalization the rest of the nation lives in appauling poverty.

It seems like you know nothing about India's current social structure. Please stop making idiotic claims.
Can you please explain to me why India still has a massive gap between rich and poor as well as home to Asia's largest slums and the fact that India's poor (untochables) face economic, social and political discrimination?[/b]
Did I ever say India was a paradise on earth ?


fact that India's poor (untochables) face economic, social and political discrimination?


1) Untouchability is at its deathbed. It is not completely eradicated but it is not practiced as it was some 70 years ago.

2) India's poor today has members from all castes(which has blurred greatly thaks to British and Indian capitalist administration) and Indian workers are not confined to a single caste.

3) There are some among dalits who have been welll better under the current political spectrum who don't want the current property relation to change.

These are the reasons for my criticisation of what you have said about upper caste getting all benefits of Indian capitalism. Indian bourgeoisie too come from alll castes.

The type of argument you use is similar to oppurtunistic dalit and other caste based politicians who care about dalits/their respective castes only for months before election.

Enragé
21st April 2007, 16:11
Cuba - 97%


UNICEF actually says its a hundred ^^

Janus
21st April 2007, 20:04
What would you of prefered?

Deng or Gang of Four ect?
Well, that's really like determing which one to be the lesser of two evils. Though the Gang of Four may have stated that their goal was to preserve China's socialist path, no one can dispute that they also had a much more personal agenda for attempting to seize power.

Janus
21st April 2007, 20:17
UNICEF actually says its a hundred ^^
That's a rounded value but each organization has different methods of determining literacy values.