Stalin and his 27 mil - how is stalin a great guy

[Discourse of Method]

Hey If Stalin killed 27 million people why is he looked as such a great guy. thats a lot of fucking people.

[Ymir]

I doubt he killed more than 10million at most. The purges were not even started by him in the first place.

[Michael De Panama]

The question could be rephrased to "Hey, if Stalin killed 10 million people why is he looked at as such a great guy?", and it would still be valid.

The answer: The people who look at him as a great guy, which are just a small minority of "socialists", are either ignorant (Cassius Clay, RedSovietCCCP), insane (Mazdak, StalinSoldiers), or just bitter USSR nostalgists ("lenin" AKA "Kryuch", "yuriandropov"). Perhaps I just haven't heard a convincing enough argument as to why anyone should support a man who assumes absolute power and supreme entitlement to anything and everything in a nation, disregarding the countless millions of people he slaughtered.

(Edited by Michael De Panama at 9:22 pm on Oct. 23, 2002)

[peaccenicked]

Ymir. You are a despicable historical revisionist who
thinks it is trendy to support mass murder. Socialists would not even spit on you.
http://web.qx.net/jon/stalin.html

(Edited by peaccenicked at 3:22 am on Oct. 24, 2002)

[Michael De Panama]

Such historical revisionism is quite easily comparable to those who deny the Holocaust ever happened. Another in the many similarities between Stalinists and Nazis.

[Discourse of Method]

only 10 million, eh? well that makes it better. stalin is a great guy.

[Ymir]

When did i say that i supported mass murder?
How am I a revisionist?

All that I say I believe in. I had read that Nicolai Yezhov started the purges in response to Lenin's death (I do not deny Stalin supported and continued them)

Discourse my post did not imply that Stalin was a "great guy"...

[peaccenicked]

ONLY 10.000,000.
ONLY ONLY
That says everything.

[Ymir]

About what?

[Discourse of Method]

ok sorry. i guess i didnt see any point in stating he didnt start them.

[peaccenicked]

About facilitating Stalinism, and what does it matter if he started them or not. It is a shitty white wash.
And you once said I should kiss Stalin's feet. So do give us anymore bullshit. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.

[Illiterate Artist]

I just reading a bit aboutwhen the Red Army invaded Germany and freed the Russian prisoners of war. Stalin Was pissed at the prisoners of war because they didn't kill them selves rather than be captured. He called them tradors and sent alot of them to prison and Siberia. What a swell guy!(surpreme sarcasim!)

[Wenty]

stalin bertrayed the revolution, lenin wanted to do good for the proletariat, his first two policies when he got into power prove this, land and food. He promised peace too and got them out of ww1 but started the civil war(oh well). Lenin stuck by what marx and engels said but stalin was just a paranoid meglamaniac.

[Cassius Clay]

'27 Million' this is really depressing that people will believe this rubbish. You do realise that if Lenin had lived ten years longer or if Trotsky had taken over then so called 'Historians' and 'Experts' would be writing the same thing.

FACT is some 799,445 people died in the Soviet Prison system between the early 1930's and 1953. This was for all reasons including execution.

[Wenty]

the funny thing is, everyone believes that stalin was a killer because...what we read hear from originally historians. How are you cassius getting this information? from books by historians, eye w's etc. So whats to say where you get this info is right and where we get the info is wrong? nothing.

[new democracy]

this is out of topic but, am i the only one that see that Discourse of Method avatar is bin laden? and stalinsoldiers is not a stalinist at all. he is actually a liberation socialist that calls himself stalinist.

[Cassius Clay]

''the funny thing is, everyone believes that stalin was a killer because...what we read hear from originally historians. How are you cassius getting this information? from books by historians, eye w's etc. So whats to say where you get this info is right and where we get the info is wrong? nothing.''

Comrade ask yourself who tells you these figures for those that supposedly died under Stalin. Western school books are complete rubbish, they will dedicate two whole pages trying to excuse a thing like Bloody Sunday while summing up in a sentence how evil Stalin was. Does 'It is estimated 20 (or any other stupid number) million were murdered by Stalin' sound familiar?

Who else tell's these lies. Alexander Soljeninistyn was a Nazi for god's sake. Do you trust Goebbels propaganda? Because if you don't then you on the whole should not trust the likes of him and Robert Conquest.

Let's say for a moment what they say is even remotly true. Where are the bodies? Where is the film and photographic evidence of this holocaust? Where are the thousands (yes some Russians alledge that it was a hell but ten times more say it wasn't) of survivor or eye witness accounts?

Why is it that the generation that grew up under Stalin from the 1930's to the 1950's remember Stalin as the best time of their lifes and now play a crucial role in electing the current Communists? And there is no such thing going on in Germany, on the contray the elderly are the people who warn most agains the far-right.

Why is it that the Soviet State Archives opened by Groby and Yelstin (who had the best reason to declare '20 Million butchered' or whatever) reveal nothing of the sought?

Why is it that the UN has a similar figure for all those that died in the USSR's prisons?

[Mazdak]

Insane? The numbers Stalin EXECUTED(key word, execute, not murder/kill) range from half a million to 1.5 million. 27 million? Someone has been adding war casualties to that number. greatly exaggerrated war casualties..

Ymir, Nicolai Yezhov??? How the hell did he start the purges, he was an obscure party member who didnt hold any prominance until 1936? Yagoda was in power and started the purges. Lenin's death didn't cause any such purges, Sergei Kirov's death was the reason. Yagoda might have even engineered his assasination.

Even during the 1920s Dzerzhinsky had made it clear that the Internal Security forces needed to "clean house" as so many were power hungry and corrupt that it sickened him. And note that "purging" doesnt automatically mean execution. Most were sent to the gulags.

The Purges weren't wrong at all.

And Guest, the Kulaks were murderous capitalists. They sabotaged the poor peasants who wanted to collectivize. They did not want to lose cheap labor and land so they turned to vandalism, murder and sabotage. They HAD to be eliminated.

Michael- Comparing me to Stalinsoldiers? I have little against him, and he is jsut flat out funny. How do we compare. My ideas on execution don't come from Stalin, or even leftists for that matter. They were planted in my mind after reading articles and biographies on Vlad the Impaler, who was a true genius of his time. I have provided arguments before, and somewhat logical arguments, unlike the old "fuk yoo dumb shit. Yoo fuking hipees"

I can't believe you are blaming Yezhov for all this Ymir, he was a zealous, firm and honest party worker and had no desire for more power than he had. He was completely loyal to Stalin. Yezhov cracked under pressure because he simply wasn't strong enough to deal with the knowledge that almost everyone could be a potential enemy.

[Ymir]

I must have confused Yezhov with Yagoda.
"kiss Stalin's feet" was a joke.

peacenikked read this:
"I doubt Stalin killed more than 10million"
"ONLY 10.000,000
ONLY ONLY
That says everything."

I did not say Stalin only killed 10million. I said that I doubted more than 10million. I assume that response was to me because your next post was composed mostly of verbal attacks on myself. I find it highly unlikely Stalin, a single individual, could be made directly responsible for 27million deaths.

[Wenty]

i'm not going to dispute what i've been told, seen, read in countless books just because you quote you say so. Where do YOU get this information is important. When did you start thinking like this and why, if everyone has been lied to, why don't you believe this great conspiracy. To suggest all the western books are lies and all the historians are lieing too is somewhat preposterous.

[Mazdak]

To suggest that Western Historians and texts are NOT lying is the preposterous notion. Robert Conquest was like Procupos, when he couldnt dig up embarrasing information, he simply made it up(ie, Beria being a pedaphile).

Utter nonesense.

[Discourse of Method]

Um that was osama bin laden, but it was a mere anti-war propaghanda banner i made. fun and games.
ok I nedver read anything that said stalin killed 27 mil. i asked a kid if he read the communist manifesto and he said "yeah its full of rubbish." i asked him why and he justified this by "saying stalin=killed 27 million people" The fact that didnt have anything to do with anything i knew but still i found it a hard concept to grasp. 27 million people is a lot of people. Ill do more research on this on my own because everybody is either correcting me with 10 million or a nice number like 700,000 executed. im not saying that either of those are wrong, but i need to get more sources. also saying this never happend because you dont know of any evidence is not a good reason to believe it didnt happen. Oh and I do agree that a lot of Western Literature gooes through the ministry of truth or whatever before the public reads it and i dont trust it. peace.

[Ymir]

It's hard to trust a system that wants to rewrite their history books every few years so that they are 'politically correct' or fit in with the latest ideas.

[Wenty]

stalin supposedly killed 20 million, thats the figure. That comment your friend made DoM pisses me off. Stalin can't even be called a marxist, he completely bertrayed the revolution. Communism as a doctrine and in practise have been different, you can't call any country communist because they're not fully communist, they're all still at stage 2, socialism.

[Wenty]

http://www.gendercide.org/case_stalin.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/modern/stal...in/stalihtm.htm (http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/modern/stalin/stalihtm.htm)

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/stalin.htm

http://www.toy-soldier-gallery.com/Article...in/Stalin2.html (http://www.toy-soldier-gallery.com/Articles/Stalin/Stalin2.html)

http://gi.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_stalin.html

http://www.celebritymorgue.com/josef-stalin/

http://www.twf.org/News/Y1998/19981213-Ukr...eHolocaust.html (http://www.twf.org/News/Y1998/19981213-UkraineHolocaust.html)

http://www.lexisnexis.com/academic/2upa/Ap...intros/tru7.htm (http://www.lexisnexis.com/academic/2upa/Aph/truman_docs/guide_intros/tru7.htm)

http://laurea.topcities.com/pop/ukrain.html

http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/famine33.htm

http://www.ukar.org/truth01.shtml
"According to the lowest estimates by reputable Russian historians, Stalin was directly responsible for murdering 20 million of his own people, including eight million Ukrainians in the 1930s"

http://www.essaybank.co.uk/free_coursework/3033.html

Just from looking for a few sites on just the internet, theres more too, they must all be lieing! Stalin thought his perfect day was executing a wonderful revenge on an enemy and taking a nap in the afternoon. What a role model

[Ymir]

Many of those articleds mention Soviet leaders that came after Stalin and how wonderful they were! Stalin may have deported, killed, and starved, but what was Kruschev doing about it? He was obeying every single order! The men that came after Stalin let russia stagnate and their incompetence has allowed full scale capitalism to return.

One of those links had numerous sources from Conquest, of which Mazdak has already accused of making up information!

"You can't call any country communist because they're not fully communist they're still at stage 2, socialism."

Ever notice the name of the Soviet Union?

USSR(CCCP)

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

[Wenty]

what about the ussr, i am aware of that but it doesn't discredit what u quoted, furthermore just because someone said conquest was wrong etc doesn't necessarily make it right! The quote about Russian historians, NOT Western ones is most telling.

[Cassius Clay]

Comrade Wenty I checked the first two sites and they were a joke. The first one quotes Robert Conquest and also refferes to the film 'Harvest of Sorrow' which was a complete fraud, everybody who worked on the film has admitted so.

The BBC one I would of actually expected better of. 'Stalin was the most succesful dictator' and 'Estimated 7 million dissapeared between 1934-38'. Right (insert sarcasm here).

[Wenty]

admitting that some sites may give a general overview, a lot don't and remembering that they are just web sites not books. The quote is still there, still very much telling.

[Discourse of Method]

wow very interesting how no ne can agree on a number. ill figure it out by myself. books. all types. fun.

[Mazdak]

It is simple,

where are all the bodies???

This is an excerpt from http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embas.../7213/lies.html (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/7213/lies.html)


"The collection of fantasy figures set out above, the product of extremely well paid fabrication, appeared in the bourgeois press in the 1960s, always presented as true facts ascertained through the application of scientific method.

Behind these fabrications lurked the western secret services, mainly the CIA and MI5. The impact of the mass media on public opinion is so great that the figures are even today believed to be true by large sections of the population of Western countries.

This shameful situation has worsened. In the Soviet Union itself, where Solzhenitsyn and other well-known ‘critics’ such as Andrei Sakharov and Roy Medvedev could find nobody to support their many fantasies, a significant change took place in 1990. In the new ‘free press’ opened up under Gorbachev, everything opposed to socialism was hailed as positive, with disastrous results. Unprecedented speculative inflation began to take place in the numbers of those who were alleged to have died or been imprisoned under socialism, now all mixed up into a single group of tens of millions of ‘victims’ of the communists.

The hysteria of Gorbachev’s new free press brought to the fore the lies of Conquest and Solzhenitsyn. At the same time Gorbachev opened up the archives of the Central Committee to historical research, a demand of the free press. The opening up of the archives of the Central Committee of the Communist Party is really the central issue in this tangled tale, this for two reasons: partly because in the archives can be found the facts that can shed light on the truth. But even more important is the fact that those speculating wildly on the number of people killed and imprisoned in the Soviet Union had all been claiming for years that the day the archives were opened up the figures they were citing would be confirmed. Every one of these speculators in the dead and incarcerated claimed that this would be the case: Conquest, Sakharov, Medvedev, and all the rest. But when the archives were opened up and research reports based on the actual documents began to be published a very strange thing happened. Suddenly both Gorbachev’s free press nor the speculators in dead and incarcerated completely lost interest in the archives.

The results of the research carried out on the archives of the Central Committee by Russian historians Zemskov, Dougin and Xlevnjuk, which began to appear in scientific journals as from 1990, went entirely unremarked. The reports containing the results of this historical research went completely against the inflationary current as regards the numbers who were being claimed by the ‘free press’ to have died or been incarcerated. Therefore their contents remained unpublicised. The reports were published in low-circulation scientific journals practically unknown to the public at large. Reports of the results of scientific research could hardly compete with the press hysteria, so the lies of Conquest and Solzhenitsyn continued to gain the support of many sectors of the former Soviet Union’s population. In the West also, the reports of the Russian researchers on the penal system under Stalin were totally ignored on the front pages of newspapers, and by TV news broadcasts. Why? (Note: Why? Who stands to lose most if the workers, who make everything we use, united? Surely, the workers would stand to win. But who’d lose? That’s why.)"

[Wenty]

you'd think any article which speaks language like 'bourgeois press' may have a commuist inkling?! The bodies get buried, rot, are taken away, hidden!

[peaccenicked]

http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=1364
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/178/genesis_3.html
http://web.mit.edu/fjk/Public/essays/Medve...edev-books.html (http://web.mit.edu/fjk/Public/essays/Medvedev-books.html)

It is more likely that conquest under estimated the ammount killed. "One death is a human tragedy, a million is a statistic'' Stalin.
Mazdak had it as his sig. How mad are you stalinist bastards? Who do you think you are trying to fool?

[Marxman]

All Stalinists are the same. Damn them! Killing millions of people is lunch for them.

[Ymir]

How many of you would have said to Stalin what you say to us? Sure you criticize the man after he is dead, (AKA 'The Kruschev manuver' :P ) but what would you have done then?

One day we will be in power, whom will speak against us then?

[Cassius Clay]

No Peacenicked that quote came from a Ukrainian play in the 1970's or 1980's.

Marxman 'Killing millions for lunch' apart from the fact that this is total rubbish atleast Stalin didn't go shooting workers who turned up late much like dear Bronstien wanted.

This thread reminds me of a quote from a historical book on Richard III, 'It's an odd thing but when you tell someone the true facts of a mythical tale they are indignant not with the teller but with you. They don't WANT to have their ideas upset. It rouses some vague uneasiness in them, I think, and they resent it. So they reject it and refuse to think about it. If they were indifferent it would be natural and understandable. But it is much stronger than that, much more positive. They are annoyed, Very odd, isn't it.'

So a word of advice kids, accept the FACTS.

[peaccenicked]

Kruschev was busy denouncing Stalin at a public meeting when a voice shouted out ``If you feel this way now, why didn't you say so then?'' To which the Soviet leader thundered ``Who said that?'' There was a long and petrified silence which Kruschev finally broke. ``Now you know why.''

Stalinism is finished with only a few remains on the planet and it is popular with trendy assholes. The workers movement will never be fooled again.
If Stalinists were in power in my country. I d be the first to organise the armed resistance.

[Wenty]

i don't mind you thinking this at all, its up to you of course its just the facts are telling me something completely different to what your saying. Anyway this argument could go on for ages couldn't it, it's never going to be resolved.

[Wenty]

peaccenicked-thats a great little story about khrushev. Of course he didn't say anything to Stalin, he would have been killed!! I read somewhere about a pilot who was drunk and stalin asked him something and he something like you send us up and we kill them on your orders or something very much like that i forget. Apparently there was a cold, deadly silence in the room and a few days later the pilot was dead too.

[Cassius Clay]

Comrade Wenty, those are story's and myths. If all that were true then why is it that the party wen't against Stalin when he nominated Malenkov to be head of the NKVD in 1938, while Beria was elected?

[peaccenicked]

'Stalin the democrat' ha ha
Read more. You moron.
http://www.worldsocialist-cwi.org/Index2.h...6/16review.html (http://www.worldsocialist-cwi.org/Index2.htm?eng/2002/06/16review.html)

[Cassius Clay]

'You Moron' Grow up.

Can I ask why you are here? Since you read Robert Conquest and believe what he says and have just admitted that you would fight against a working class revolution.

Yeah I read that last source but only the first paragraph since that's all I needed to read. So let me get this straight it actually admits that Serge was in collaboration with Trotsky and actually fought against 'The Stalinist Beucracy' and then says Stalin expelled Serge from the country. Well this does go some way into proving how evil Stalin was doesn't it (sarcasm incase your that ignorant).

It really does make me laugh when a so called 'Fascist evil Dictatorship' gives it's 'Dissidents' access to a audience of hundreds of millions of people to express their views (no matter how fascist or anti-semitic). Some oppressive government.

[Wenty]

"According to the lowest estimates by reputable Russian historians, Stalin was directly responsible for murdering 20 million of his own people, including eight million Ukrainians in the 1930s"

[Cassius Clay]

Ah, poor Comrade Wenty why did you feel the need to send me a PM asking me whether I was Stalin's 'Love child'? The reason I write this here is because surely there is some sought of rule/s (any moderators around here) that say that this sought of thing should NOT happen.

Oh but because I support Stalin surely that means it's okay for him to cause me offense and I guess I deserved it anyway.

Tell me something Comrade Wenty if I sent you a PM calling you 'Goebbels horny secretary' would you take offence?

You seem like a good person who is eager to learn, so I will respond. You keep on quoting that quote. Are you aware that it is written by the same people who told you that the Contras 'Were the moral equivlalent of our founding fathers', or the Taliban were freedom fighters and that Saddam was doing great things for the Iraqi people and a example of democracy in the middle East?

And pacificly to that quote. Historians who have studied the archives reveal something totally different.

[Wenty]

the love child bit was a little joke, didn't mean to cause offense! Like i said before, this argument could go on for ages and will never be resolved. I say let sleeping dogs lie.

[Mazdak]

LOl, "Khrushchev manuever."

And Cassius Clay, although i agree with you, i am not sure, i heard that Stalin asked Yezhov who he wanted as an assistant and Yezhov said he wanted Malenkov, but he got Beria instead. Is this true, because i am almost sure it is? Was it Stalin who put Beria in the NKVD, or the Politburo?

[Discourse of Method]

What the hell?!? facts?!? Everything Ive been given is biased bullshit!?! I am inferring that some form of holocaust took place and Stalin was partially responsible, and was very much aware it was going on. whether it was 100 or 100 million what the hell does that matter? Okay, so what if many living under Stalin found that the best time of their lives. Those evidentally, were not victims of this Holocaust. So what if Western literature spends 2 pages justifing Bloody Sunday and a sentence calling Stalin evil! Just infer that both Bloody Sunday was a horrible act as were the purges.

[Wenty]

sometimes people go off the topic, so?

[Cassius Clay]

Mazdak, I am 99.9% sure that what I wrote is the case. If your going to trust anything I say trust that. I think the reason (and I'm speculating here) Stalin nominated Malenkov was because he was a trusted party man, unlike Beria who had risen through the ranks of NKVD (much like Yezhov).

Comrade Wenty, all is forgiven, it just seemed you were mocking me.

Discourse of Method.

So what were you told that was 'Biased bullshit'? Nobody in this thread has given you a link to go to have they. And if a non-biased source actually exists then I think you've just discovered the first one.

You alledge there was a 'Holocaust' under Stalin. So why do you not provide some back up to this claim? And I don't mean Conquest or Soljenistyn. Proper evidence. Much like the evidence towards the fact that a Holocaust happend under the Nazis towards the Jews.

Finally I take it you are some sought of 'Leftist'. So it should be obvious why it matters that western school books try to come up with excuses to Bloody Sunday and at the same time just say 'It is estimated 7 million dissapered under Stalin between 1934 and 1938'.

Do you believe the Russian people were justified in overthrowing Tsar or do you support Tsar's regime?

[Wenty]

i know this isn't aimed at me but i believe they were right to overthrow the tsar defintely, especially after bloody sunday. I mean, who would enjoy living under an autocracy? They had every right to rise up, the first revolution was a spontaneous thing, a provisional government set up etc. Then lenin and all the exiles came back into russia thinking, well lets do it our way and so they did, fantastic! If only things had gone to plan it would been good. NEP is quite telling to be honest, the 'education of the masses' would have worked too.

(Edited by Comrade Wenty at 8:25 pm on Oct. 26, 2002)

[Discourse of Method]

okay i know relatively nothing ill stop participationg in this. actually, i dont care about stalin. who cares about stalin. if he was a jerk that doesnt affect me. if he wasnt, great. im not even satanic. nor am i jewish. what is the ratio of pi? i dont know im just a simple hair dresser with no respect because ive spen t too much time talking on payphones. why are they raising the price from 35 cents to 50. who the fuck do they think they are? the postal service?? when will people start writing me? why do i have to call them. why cant i ever get the prank calls. all i want to do is shove it down their throat i dont care if i get prank-called like most people who call the police. what the hell? why do people my age think the police are so bad? the police have never done a thing to them. "Oh man i was drimking in the park, and this cop was like hey are you drinking and im like no way" what is hould learn how to develop my thoughts that would help. MELT BANDANA MELT BANDANA MELT MELT BANDANA

[Mazdak]

...brilliant post.

This is the problem, it is people like you, who know almost nothing about Stalin who bullshit about him and make up all these fancy numbers of people who he "murdered." You are like the capitalists and apoliticals in america who equate communism to fascism.

[Wenty]

suffice to say i am glad not to be one of those people and yet i can still believe what i believe about stalin.

[Cassius Clay]

Discourse of Justice, now I would feel sorry for you and your horrible job but you were the one who started the god dam thread.

Oh and Comrade Wenty was that a typo?

[Wenty]

what was a typo my boxing friend?

[Cassius Clay]

Never mind. Just out of interest are you from the UK? If so where abouts if you don't mind saying.

[Wenty]

i think i know what you were on about now cassius, yeah i'm from bristol btw