socialist society in America

[Nasoxoron]

I have a few questions (ten, since thats a good benchmark) about what a socialist/communist society in America would look like, in the sense that the country has been changed politically and taken by the radical left.

Here they are...

1. Would all business be banned, or would small traders etc. be allowed to operate?

2. What sort of housing would people have?

3. Would there be a right to privacy?

4. Would people be allowed to walk on any open land they want?

5. What sort of taxes would there be, or if not, how would the community get money?

6. What would happen to non-leftists?

7. What would be done about violent criminals?

8. Would there be a House/Senate/President or would government be different?

9. Would all private religious beliefs be allowed?

10. How would education be carried out?

Oh, sorry, one more question. What about foreign policy?

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Welcome to our forums, this is the best place to ask questions. Take into consideration the fact that this is just my viewpoint, and you can gurantee on hearing other ones.


Would all business be banned, or would small traders etc. be allowed to operate?

Businesses wouldn't be "banned," in the traditional sense. Rather they'd be controlled by all of their employees and held in common, with their produce put towards the needs of society.


2. What sort of housing would people have?
Enormous mansions that could fit 30 people would be given to 30 people. 12 people in one room would be given something more comfortable. The goal would be an equilibrium where nobody has too much or too little. New houses would be built according to the needs of the people who would live in it.



Would there be a right to privacy
Yes, that goes without saying.


4. Would people be allowed to walk on any open land they want?
The land would belong to everyone, of course they could.


What sort of taxes would there be, or if not, how would the community get money?
Money would no longer be used. All produce would be voluntarily distributed between producers according to need.



What would happen to non-leftists?
If they weren't pleased with the direction we were taking they would have all the right in the world to go someplace else. If they wanted to stay then they'd be treated as equals with the same freedoms as everyone else, because they'd no longer be able to command the subserviance of others like before.


What would be done about violent criminals?
Most crime comes from the material conditions of people in their present society. If we allowed everyone the right to be master of the means of production then violent crimes with the motive of gaining material goods would become near-non-existant. If we created a society that focused on a refusal to create authority or hierarchy then many others would also wither away. But any other criminals would be given not only due process and a fair and objective chance to be heard out, but they would be rehabilitated in a compassionate manner.


8. Would there be a House/Senate/President or would government be different?
No. Those systems are as abusive and exclusive as capitalism. Instead, people would from community organisations based on direct democracy. Their workplaces would follow the same lines, and to deal with larger, more interregional issues instantly recallable and transparent spokespeople would be used. Perhaps everyone in the community would be given this opportunity in turn. If need be these councils and assemblies could form a loose confederation, still with the same directly democratic principles.



9. Would all private religious beliefs be allowed?
Yes, emphasis on private. They would not be allowed to be used as tools of division or control.


10. How would education be carried out?
People would call their teachers by their first names, students would be given the chance to learn about what interests them as individuals rather than the biased state propaganda of today, and the focus would be on personal fulfillment and not on future careers. If you wanted to prepare for your future job while in school you would be able to, but it wouldn't be mandatory. If you decided not to you could learn on the job through apprenticeships or practicums.


Oh, sorry, one more question. What about foreign policy?
There wouldn't be a state in the traditional sense, so that's a tricky one.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Preamble: What you're saying is that we should think like a utopian socialist, so I won't go there and instead focus on the immediate period of revolutionary stamocap.

1) The transition period to socialism would be "governed" in accordance with revolutionary state monopoly capitalism (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65240) (link).


By revolutionary stamocap, I refer again to the hourglass in the "monopoly capitalism" thread. On a global level, under "revolutionary" stamocap the commanding heights where the consolidated multinational monopolies and oligopolies operate would be publicly owned by a combination of "pension socialism" (http://www.voiceoftheturtle.org/show_article.php?aid=321) (warning: "market socialist" link) and state ownership. A chained / pyramidal majority shareholding structure would exist, wherein the ultimate owners and controllers are state holding companies acting as a collective Gosplan and Gossnab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gossnab), made possible due to 50%+1 ownership in company shares. Meanwhile, the niche businesses within the economy - and there are more and more of those by the day due to the "shrinking middle" - would remain private; they generally don't have more than 100 employees or so. They wouldn't be able to corner bigger markets - because of "Gossnab 2.0," the law, and economic disincentives (immediate nationalization upon being big enough to be deemed part of the "commanding heights").

To elaborate further on the pyramidal majority shareholding structure under the proposed revolutionary stamocap system, at the top you'd have the state holding companies - each 50+1% or more owned by the state, with the remainder owned by the public directly (but mainly through "private" pension funds, a government pension plan for retirees, and other management funds). Next, those holding companies would each own 50%+1 (or more) of the voting shares of the various consolidated companies (with remainder under direct public ownership). These consolidated companies, in turn, would own 50+1% or more of their direct subsidiaries (similar remainder fate), who may in turn assume similar ownership and control positions over lower subsidiaries (similar remainder fate), and so on.

And don't limit your discussion to just America: that's nationalist (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65355) (link).

2) Not sure, but no slums, and certainly no millionaire mansions for just a couple of individuals :)

3) Hard to say, because reactionary elements need to be monitored extensively.

4) Sure, so long as it's "open land" :)

5) I'll go against Marx here and actually go against "progressive taxation." Since in bourgeois societies they serve as mere tokens, and since the revolutionaries in charge would be serious about socialism (because of public ownership and control), "progressive taxation" would not be needed.

6) Depends on how they react to the NWO, AND what class they belonged to before the revolution. There are sheep-minded petty bourgeois, and then there are moguls who will attempt to hire private armies of counter-revolution. The former may stay, while the latter should definitely be send to HARD penal labour on sight.

7) Same treatment as the moguls: HARD penal labour (let them be exploited for a change - before they die of their slow, painful deaths).

8) Soviets, factory committees, and communal councils (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65207) (to ensure that the state control over the pyramidal shareholding structure above isn't abused)


While I'm not proposing "checks and balances" by any means, I merely propose different ways of exercising power at the same time.

1) Communal councils: already in place in Venezuela, and regardless of my opinion on Hugo Chavez and historical parallels, this concept is progressive. However, it hasn't been "sovietized" in a "chained" system and, in my proposal, shouldn't be. Non-sovietization gives such councils "local currency" (floating here the possibility of using local currencies to complement or replace the state currency) to deal with local issues.

2) "Chained" soviets and congresses of soviets, ultimately leading to an all-republic Congress of Soviets electing an all-republic Supreme Soviet: basically the same stuff as in the Russian Revolution. Economically speaking, this may or may not correlate to my "revolutionary" stamocap ideas for the hourglass economy (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65105&view=findpost&p=1292295858). Local issues may be addressed by lower soviets in conjunction with communal councils and factory/workplace committees, but by far the primary issues relate to the socialist republic as a whole.

3) Factory/workplace committees: same stuff as in the Russian Revolution, and I'm still unsure of whether they should be "chained" like the soviets (to go further) or not. Perhaps they're smaller than the communal councils set to replace municipal councils. Perhaps these committees manage the various niche enterprises that comprise the bottom of the hourglass economy.

4) NO UNIONS! As said in another thread, they tend to be quite reactionary, and factory/workplace committees do the job better without the bureaucracy. If state-wide issues need addressing, there is the all-republic Congress of Soviets and Supreme Soviet, and maybe an all-republic Congress of factory committees, as well.

9) PRIVATE beliefs :)

10) Tough call :(

11) None - but not because of what the anarchist above said, but rather because of a global socialist republic. Before then, that is the policy of a single international communist party, thus getting rid of the notion of "foreign affairs." The national-revolutions would be conducted by national "cells" working together, establishing a number of socialist regions at the same time in a single step.

[Whitten]

I'll go against Marx here and actually go against "progressive taxation." Since in bourgeois societies they serve as mere tokens, and since the revolutionaries in charge would be serious about socialism (because of public ownership and control), "progressive taxation" would not be needed.

Marx wasn't proposing progressive taxation for a socialist society, that was an immediate demand put to the bourgeois governments.

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 05:50 am
1) The transition period to socialism would be "governed" in accordance with revolutionary state monopoly capitalism. (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65240)

And how do you suppose this insane sectarian plan will be carried? By who?

[RedLenin]

Would all business be banned, or would small traders etc. be allowed to operate?
Private enterprise would be banned. All workplaces would be nationalized and run under workers control. The economy would be democratically planned through a congress of industrial and consumer representatives.


What sort of housing would people have?
Everyone will be garunteed housing. Now, as socialism just emerges from capitalism, some inequality will continue to exist. Those who work harder and sacrafice more would get payed more, and could have bigger houses. However, this inequality in wealth would be drastically reduced under socialism.


Would there be a right to privacy?
Yes. Socialism would mean a great expansion of freedoms.


Would people be allowed to walk on any open land they want?
As all land would be nationalized, yes.


What sort of taxes would there be, or if not, how would the community get money?
The economy will be planned at the local, regional, and national level. Money will be allocated to various projects such as universal health care, education, public works, etc.


What would happen to non-leftists?
Nothing, unless they use violence against the state. In which case they will be dealt with mercilessly.


What would be done about violent criminals?
Same thing we do now. They would be thrown in prison. However, the goal will not be revenge but keeping society safe and rehabilitation. Over time, violent crime will be drastically reduced and eventually disapear all together.


Would there be a House/Senate/President or would government be different?
A socialist state would be a radically new form of state controled by working people themselves. The state woul be based on workers councils; democratic and centralized working bodies, executive and legislative at the same time. These workers councils will be come together in a congress of councils and elect a central committee, which will be the highest governing institution. All delegates will be elected, recallable, and receive an average worker's wage. There will be term limits as well, so that more and more people can participate in government.


Would all private religious beliefs be allowed?
Yes, but probably with some restrictions. For example, I personally would want to make it illegal for parents to indoctrinate their children. However, if someone wants to believe backward fuedal ideology, that is their choice. As long as they don't force it on anyone else.


How would education be carried out?
It would be high quality, free, and universal. All people could have quality education right up through the university level. Education would be publicly funded and democratically controlled.


What about foreign policy?
World revolution. Our international goal will be to inspire and help revolutionaries in other countries to make revolution and bring about socialism. Socialism will be international or it will be nothing.

[TheGreenWeeWee]

Nasoxoron--welcome to the forum. You wrote:

1. Would all business be banned, or would small traders etc. be allowed to operate? All work places, hence the term "means of production", would be in workers control. Be it in the form of a socialist industrial union in which businesses would be part of a deparatment or worker's council--see thread on this page. People will continue to trade and barter but private ownership would cease. At least we would like to think so but it is all speculation right now. You will get a number of responses on what may happen in a socialist society including a call to follow Boris Badenov's Fearless Leader.

2. What sort of housing would people have? People need to live in houses. People tend to get on each other's nerves when they are packed in apartments and high rises. I never could stand them and that is why I own my house. Whatever arangement that are made in the new society will be made by them but I think it is good to start talking about this issue.

3. Would there be a right to privacy? Yes, what you do is your own business. Not only privacy rights should exist but a lot of civil rights. People should be free to speak their minds and assemble for any reason. People have a right to agree or disagree including protesting the new society.

4. Would people be allowed to walk on any open land they want? I look at this differently than others. There is personal property which would include land. It is respectful not to walk on it like someones back yard. Peope who own this personal land labored for it. Land that is deemed communal can be walked on because everyone labored for it.

5. What sort of taxes would there be, or if not, how would the community get money? Some say money would continue to exist but with money there is circulation which could be used in a black market for profit. I would like to believe that labor time vouchers be used instead which don't circulate. Their use is for exchanges of commodities. Vouchers reflect labor time that went into the making of commodites. Also, for every 20 minutes of labor time one voucher is created for education, social services and health care. I hope I have covered all the bases.

6. What would happen to non-leftists? I hope nothing happens to them. If so then their fear and terror about socialism would come true. And if that did happen then I would be certain that all workers had become slaves to the political state. There are going to be some people who dissent and they have that right. It is people who decide they are going to go on a killing spree. Most likely facist would be the problem. The capitalist would run in the other direction or leave.

7. What would be done about violent criminals? Be locked up. People who harms another would have to be dealt with. It is hoped that conditions would foster better attitudes but there will still be people who get a kick out of being violent.

8. Would there be a House/Senate/President or would government be different? Some think there will be a political government and it is possible that U.S. government would continue except it would be socialist in nature looking out for the interest of the working class. Other believe that there would be a non political republic of labor in the form of an industrial union or worker's councils in partnership with community councils.

9. Would all private religious beliefs be allowed? Yes. People have a right to believe whatever they want. If workers decided to use their labor time vouchers to obtain wood, brick, windows, shingles, chairs, etc., to build a church, temple or synagoge then they have that right. I would dare say that people could form religious communities if they so chose. And people who don't have religious beliefs have every right to say and do what they want. There should be no bigotry or discrimination with anyone in the new society.

10. How would education be carried out? Not so different as today. I hope it would be much better. See #5.

Oh, sorry, one more question. What about foreign policy? In the new society everything would be carried out over industrial lines. Not political lines which means that what raw material that is obtained would be exchanged for food, medicine, machinery and consumer products. Basically the all republics of labor would be building each other up. I do think countries will continue to exist simply because of cultural differences that exist. Nothing wrong with differnces.

[Issaiah1332]

People should be free to speak their minds and assemble for any reason.

And if they are assembling to overthrow and institute a capitalist society?

We must keep an eye out for counter-revolutions, and when we find them, we must take care of them "mercilessly" but non-violently. There are ways to handle things that do not mean "killing those cappie bastards."




1. Would all business be banned, or would small traders etc. be allowed to operate?

Not exactly banned. The means of production would be put into the workers hands. Instead of private enterprise, business would be communal. (As everything would be)


2. What sort of housing would people have?

Everyone would have a house, something capitalism cannot seem to achieve. Everyone will have shelter, although giant mansions will not be erected for a 3 person family. People would have houses that are appropriate and proportionate to their family size.


3. Would there be a right to privacy?

Yes, even more so. With a capitalist society, the government decides most everything even in an indirect way. We must remember that the abolishment of private property is not the same as abolishing personal property.


4. Would people be allowed to walk on any open land they want?

I agree with Green. It would not be fair for some creepy guy to walk on to your land and into your house. We must, again, remember that personal and private property are different. I think that everyone should get their own little piece of land, all other land is communal. You should be allowed to have something and by doing so you have privacy. The only time this should not be the case is when you are using that land to profit in some way.


5. What sort of taxes would there be, or if not, how would the community get money?

Someone mentioned Marx's view of Progressive Taxation, I believe that he wasn't meaning that in the context of your question. So we will not use that idea, at this moment.

Money will be less and less needed, and thus more and more abolished. But, this also depends on what you mean by "money" if you mean it in a capitalist way, then it will not be needed. It is a form of private property. Money could also be a coupon for goods, in which that will more than likely be needed. You go to a distribution facility and redeem your coupon for the goods you are entitled. It could be in the form of a time voucher or something similar. The socialist chant comes into context "From each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds"

As things progress more and more into communism, you will need no such thing and you will get what you need. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"


6. What would happen to non-leftists?

The would be free to leave the U.S (Be careful saying things directly related to your country, makes you seem nationalist) otherwise they could stay and abide. They would have no less freedoms than anyone else and would be treated as equals.



7. What would be done about violent criminals?

Well, the need to hurt and steal for material things would be abolished. Therefore crime would lessen, of course there are always a few sociopaths who kill and hurt for no reason at all. They would be locked up, in the same way we do now. Although the justice system would change and approve.


8. Would there be a House/Senate/President or would government be different?

Government would be in the form of direct democracy. I do not exactly agree with the need of representatives. I think everything would try to be talked of and negotiated. If this is not possible a vote will be in order. This applies on a smaller, community like scale. There will also be less things to decide upon, nationally. No need to worry about how money will be spent and such. On a national level, representatives may be needed. I am not too sure of my stance on that, because representatives=a type of class, IMO.


9. Would all private religious beliefs be allowed?

Of course, but not to the extent where a theocracy is instituted. It would be private, and no enforcement of any certain religion would be allowed.


10. How would education be carried out?

Totally free, even on the collegiate level. It would have more emphasis and it would be more adaptive.


What about foreign policy?

Hopefully by such a revolution more and more countries would be motivated to do the same. It would be near impossible to be a truly communist country w/out other countries doing the same.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 03:30 pm
Private enterprise would be banned. All workplaces would be nationalized and run under workers control. The economy would be democratically planned through a congress of industrial and consumer representatives.
You sound way too much like that reformist parecon guy, Michael Albert.


Marx wasn't proposing progressive taxation for a socialist society, that was an immediate demand put to the bourgeois governments.

In that case, that&#39;s mostly a moot point now, anyway. <_<


And how do you suppose this insane sectarian plan will be carried? By who?

How can my plan be sectarian? :huh: Read my preamble in bold. <_<

[More Fire for the People]

1. Would all business be banned, or would small traders etc. be allowed to operate?
All workplaces would be cooperatives under the adminstration of an elected workers’ council so, yes. In more rural areas mom and pop business consisting of a single family may stay open so long as they don&#39;t employ any workers outside the family or their own children.

2. What sort of housing would people have?
Free housing. Existing housings will be upgraded and fit for human living. People probably will turn mansions into vacation spots, hotels, etc.

3. Would there be a right to privacy?
Of course.

4. Would people be allowed to walk on any open land they want?
Why not? Unless there was a sign that said &#39;danger, land mines&#39;. :lol:

5. What sort of taxes would there be, or if not, how would the community get money?
No sales taxes or any other regressive taxes. All taxes would be on income.

6. What would happen to non-leftists?
&#39;Non-leftist&#39; workers, students, & other underclasses would be included in the political process and have the same rights as &#39;leftist&#39; workers, students, & other underclasses. The capitalists and their lackeys would have rights proportional to their usefulness — so none in most cases.

7. What would be done about violent criminals?
Rehabilitation. Prions would not exist.

8. Would there be a House/Senate/President or would government be different?
No&#33; The ruling body would be a central congress formed of federated communes. This congress would have legislative, executive, and judicial power.

9. Would all private religious beliefs be allowed?
No. Religious beliefs encourage racism, sexism, homophobia, and a return to capitalism would be discouraged and clerics, priests, etc. advocating them would be silenced & forced to serve the community in reperation.

10. How would education be carried out?
Education would emphasize a critical understanding of the world through reflexive praxis [ i.e. the inter-relatedness of thought and action ]. Schools would be independent of the state but still receive financial support from the state.

Oh, sorry, one more question. What about foreign policy?
It would emphasize the need for international socialist revolution and aid the international working class in their struggles.

[TheGreenWeeWee]

I wrote: People should be free to speak their minds and assemble for any reason.

Issaiah1332 wrote: And if they are assembling to overthrow and institute a capitalist society?

We must keep an eye out for counter-revolutions, and when we find them, we must take care of them "mercilessly" but non-violently. There are ways to handle things that do not mean "killing those cappie bastards."

Whoa there. What do you think we do if and when we assemble. Talk about bringing in a new society right?. Are we being detained? Not now unless small groups decided to take matters in their own hands and would not the authorities react in arresting them? Same in the new society when small groups go nuts. They would be arrested and detained. Its that simple. If the new society has to look out for reactionaries, counter revolutionaries or people being accused of doing such things then the new society as a whole is not fit to live in. The new society would have to be a whole lot better than what exist now under capitalism.

[RedLenin]

You sound way too much like that reformist parecon guy, Michael Albert.
I do not know how you came to the conclusion that I sound like a reformist. A proletarian state based on workers councils with nationalized industry under workers control is about the furthest thing from reformism. All I said was that we need democratic planning. I think Michael Albert has some good ideas and some bad ideas, but his very basic ideas about democratic planning are good. What would you propose instead of democratic planning? If we are talking about working class power, that necessarily involves working people planning the economy.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 05:06 pm
I do not know how you came to the conclusion that I sound like a reformist. A proletarian state based on workers councils with nationalized industry under workers control is about the furthest thing from reformism. All I said was that we need democratic planning. I think Michael Albert has some good ideas and some bad ideas, but his very basic ideas about democratic planning are good. What would you propose instead of democratic planning? If we are talking about working class power, that necessarily involves working people planning the economy.
^^^ I never said you were a reformist, nor did I imply such. However, both he and you jumped right into how a socialist society would look like. Thanks to ComradeRed&#39;s constructive input (in spite of his "non-Leninism"), what I outlined above does NOT apply to the socialist society, but rather the immediate transitory period.

Here&#39;s my economic proposal for the GLOBAL pre-socialist transitory period (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65240) (and I already linked to this up above).

[Fawkes]

Many people have already sufficiently answered your other questions, so I will just add something for this one.

2. What sort of housing would people have?
Post-revolution, billions and billions of square feet of buildings will be rendered obsolete. If you&#39;ve ever been to any major city, you&#39;ve most likely seen the enormous skyscraper buildings that exist there solely to serve as office buildings for things that will no longer exist in a post-revolution society, e.g. insurance companies, banks, etc. These buildings can---and most likely will---be converted into adequately sized apartments for people in need of housing.

[Issaiah1332]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 04:52 pm
I wrote: People should be free to speak their minds and assemble for any reason.

Issaiah1332 wrote: And if they are assembling to overthrow and institute a capitalist society?

We must keep an eye out for counter-revolutions, and when we find them, we must take care of them "mercilessly" but non-violently. There are ways to handle things that do not mean "killing those cappie bastards."

Whoa there. What do you think we do if and when we assemble. Talk about bringing in a new society right?. Are we being detained? Not now unless small groups decided to take matters in their own hands and would not the authorities react in arresting them? Same in the new society when small groups go nuts. They would be arrested and detained. Its that simple. If the new society has to look out for reactionaries, counter revolutionaries or people being accused of doing such things then the new society as a whole is not fit to live in. The new society would have to be a whole lot better than what exist now under capitalism.
Sorry...I was rather unclear. I met that we must watch out for them, which is why we should always seek to help others understand and show them how wonderful our ideas really are. We should try to persuade them, I didn&#39;t mean that we should incarcerate them.

[Die Neue Zeit]

As a side note, it seems now that agriculture is ripe for sovkhozy socialization, given Kautsky&#39;s prediction and US government facts. (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=65638&st=0#entry1292303250)